.... on mule deer. Your thoughts appreciated.

Muzzle velocity is ~2800 fps.

I can't speak to the "vs. Accubond". But I use the BT in my 7-08, and that with complete satisfaction. Hogs, blacktails, mule deer, whitetails-- they all die quickly.
It's been a while, I think I'll sneak in "like the hammer of Thor".

I killed my first mule deer with an NBT at about 50 yards from a 280, did great. Killed lots and lots and lots and lots of whitetails and hogs with the same bullet and cartridge combo (triple digits).

Jeff, I've used them both, but at higher MVs in the RM.

What I found with the 140NBT is that it would stay in big deer many times with the jacket stuck under the off side hide. When I've caught the 140 NABs, they've had a text book mushroom with the core still in.

Here is an example of a 140NAB started at 3200fps MV. Impact was at 312yds on a strong quarter to. The bullet took out a section of the spine, entered the cavity, busted some ribs, and was under the hide behind the far shoulder:



I also load the 140NAB for a friend that hunts mulies and big whitetail every year. He loves the way they perform. 3100 from a 7rm as well.

Have a good one,

loder

I've also found that the 150NBT tends to stay together and punch through more than the 140. Killed piles of critters with those pills, even a beast 500lb Russian.

'loder, thanks.

Yeah, if I were loading these for my 7 WSM I'd go Accubond all the way (or run the 150 NBT)... in fact for my 7 WSM I am running the 160 NAB as a deer/elk combo load.

I have an excellent 7-08 Mountain Rifle that I've set up to be very light, and it is one of those rifles that just hits what you point it at, and I shoot it all the time out to waaay out there... so in a nutshell I'm sorting out what load to use in it as a carry load. I will single-load 162 Amax's for anything truly long range but I've run hundreds and hundreds of the 140 NBT through it and they do fine out to 450, 500 yards as long as it's not crazy windy.

My only real concern is the "toughness" of that specific NBT, the 140 grain, at 7-08 starting velocities...

Thanks again!

Then my experience fits perfectly. In my opinion, it's a dandy.
I have a box of Partitions, just in case I need to use my 7-08 if my main elk gun falls apart on a trip, but I wouldn't necessarily switch to them- I wouldn't be more than a touch nervous about whacking an elk with those BTs, given their track record with me on other animals.

While mule deer aren't exactly "elk tough" they can be quite a bit bigger then the majority of white tails shot each year in the US, sometimes by a fairly big margin. The NAB would be MY personal choice, as good mule deer hunting is getting harder to come by each year with premier tags becoming close to sheep tag status, as in a few per lifetime, if you're lucky. So in my case, I'm not going to wait for a perfect 100 yard broadside shot....if the rack is to my liking, any angle except from dead behind, I'm taking the shot. I'd go for the stronger bullet to make it through "more deer" and possibly bones. Just MHO

Very valid point, and sort of the crux of the question I suppose.

I wouldn't be one to argue against such thinking. Confidence, rational or not, is a factor of hunting not to be dismissed.
I chose Partitions for my "elk gun", a .308FAT (RSAUM), for the assurance; and without regard to any other options.
Nonetheless, I have chased -and will again chase- mulies with my 7mm BTs without a [bleep] of worry.
(I bought the 7-08 as soon as I could after shooting my big non-typical with the .257 Rbts with which I grew up. It wasn't the cartridge's fault (didn't know it at the moment) that allowed that buck of a lifetime to run a fair ways and out of my sight (in my despair it felt like 'out of my life'), but I didn't want to feel that way again and perhaps lose another buck of a lifetime. 40 more grains of bullet, with a bit more diameter, has given me the peace of mind I wanted. (And I've since had a rapprochement with the fully adequate .257, BTW.))

My experience with the 140gr BTs is limited, but not good. On small stuff, yearling white tail, steenbok, springbok, and a couple of medium animals, Gemsbok. It really wasn't worth a crap. Blew up everything shot with it, till it got to the Gemsbok, and on them, just blew up inside. The deer and Steenbok both had their guts blown out and laying on the ground. This was a hit right behind the shoulder, but coming out the other side towards the back of the ribs. The Springbok all had 3" exit holes, and the Gemsbok, the bullets blew up inside and found (jackets) against the other side. I also used the 140gr Ttsxs in this rifle (280Rem) at 2900+, and they worked fine. I'd go with the Accubond, to prevent the blow ups (used them last year on a Caribou, but not from a 7mm). Would rather the bullets hang together. Better to error on the side of a little more penetration, and non-explosiveness, than perhaps lose an animal, do to a shot that blows up, perhaps on the surface, or just inside. Personally, I'll never use the BTs again..

Well let's see... In my limited experience I have only shot 5 or 6 southern whitetails using factory loaded BT's out of my 7-08. 140 grain of course. shots ranged from about 25 yards to 215 yards(long shot for us boys in the south sometimes):)NONE of the bullets failed nor did they "explode" on impact. The only one that stayed inside the animal was the 215 yrd shot and that was straight on in the chest. When I loaded that deer into the back of my GMC all of the innards just kinda poured out of that entrance hole. Deer went 10 yards btw. So far so good for me. I will echo the point though that if I were going after a larger animal on a trophy hunt I might use a tougher bullet like an accubond or a flavor of Barnes all copper. Heck even a partition. It would depened on accuracy at that point. Back to the Ballistic Tips though... they will be loaded in my Browning again this fall/winter with confidence.

Your story is altogether foreign to me .
A good demonstration of YMMV.

The last mule deer I shot was with a Nosler solid base, .284, 140gr. The distance was 322yds and it went through both shoulders. My experience with the solid base and the BT seem to be similar. The velocity of this load, leaving the muzzle at about 2850fps probably is close to 7-08 performance around 200+

This being said, mostly I've used Partitions and TSX's and I'd choose the AB and err on the side of something tougher. I fail to see any difference in the accuracy of the two (BT's and AB's in my testing)

Good luck on your first mule deer hunt. It is habit forming...

The 120 and 150 7mm ballistic tips are two of the ones that JB says have had their jackets thickened up. If it were me, I would load one or both of those and go do some experimenting.

Or, you might be able to just stick with the 162 amax. I shot some through my 7 RM a few weeks ago. The target was a box of wet magazines. Starting velocity was 3050 fps. They didn't completely grenade at about 180 yards, and decent sized pieces of jacket still stuck to the base at 445 yards. I would probably feel confident putting one of those through the ribs of a deer, especially at distance, but maybe not a shoulder. However, your 7-08 would start them significantly slower, and rotational speed of the bullet would also be slower. Maybe try some in your own version of a bullet testing box?

It's been a while since I shot 140 NAB's through this rifle. As I recall they drop right into the same load, and interchanged nicely with the 140 NBT even way out there.

Another thought is running 120's real fast... Big Game will scoot 120 NBT's at 3050 fps from my rifle, but not very accurately. I'd like to try a 120 TTSX in it.

My rifle loves the 162's, but, they are loaded really long so are a single-shot affair. I've seen a few nasty pics of really torn up deer with them... then again that's true of NBT's as well!

Interesting. Any idea what the muzzle velocities have been on these torn up deer? Cartridges used?

I really should have bookmarked the threads. No, I got nuthin'!

I am running the 140 ballistic tip in my 7mm08 at 2800 fps. Countless deer later I have had no troubles at all. Only had a couple deer go more than a few feet. Two were pulled shots that I caught a little far back and punched the liver. One was a large doe shot at 340 yards through the lungs. Bullet was slowed way down by then so I did not get great expansion. Still she only went about eighty yards and was dead on her feet.

As for toughness of ballistic tips I was surprised. I shot a smaller doe as she was facing me 75 yard shot. I did not put the bullet where I wanted it. Instead of in the neck I put the bullet behind the should blade in the ribs. The bullet went the whole length of the deer. Put a groove in every rib bone and exited the hip through the ball of the hip bone. Completely shattered the pelvis and all the bones in the leg were cracked and shattered from the bullet. I was amazed and pissed that I made a mess out of a hindquarter. Never thought the bullet would of left the body cavity.

As for accubonds I have shot the 160 grain bullets around 2600 fps. Used them on bison. Shot a cow about 800 pounds. I was not all that impressed. Penetration was great broadside shots through ribs on entrance and exit. Did not find any bullets but based on the exit wound expansion was average at best. That was going through a lot more critter than a deer. I would think they would be too tough of a bullet for heart lung shot on deer sized game even the lighter 140s I would think would be too tough of a bullet.

I did shoot one doe with a 139 grain hornady interbond through the lungs. She took off after the shot. I thought I missed her until she piled up about 150 yards down the field. Very minimal damage. Bullet zipped clean based on the size of the exit wound I doubt the bullet expanded much if at all.

I don't see the need for a bonded bullet of any type of deer. They might give you the advantage if you have to take the less than perfect shot. I would not feel comfortable of getting good expansion unless I punched heavy bone. Aim for the shoulder instead of behind the shoulder and a bonded bullet should work excellent on deer. I am like venison too much to shoot through meat though.

To answer your question.....NAB

You might try Alliant's 2000MR - it cooks the 120 gr TTSX and NBT right along. I get better accuracy in my gun with this powder over BG, and similar velocity.

I don't see a need for the 140 BT. The 120 is tougher and I like the performance of the 150 even better. No mistakes to be made with the AB's, but have you tried the 160's?

CLB, just in my 7 WSM, and not on game.

I have killed a couple deer and a couple elk with (different) Accubonds and have been very impressed.

For my general-purpose load in the 7-08 I don't want to go heavy... 140 is fine. I have used 150 gn NBT's on deer, once, from a different 7-08. A little messy but it sure did work. Hmmm. Wonder if I have any of those laying around still. I don't remember if this rifle likes them or not, though I'd be surprised if it didn't.

The easy route forward is to just use the 140's as I have mucho experience with them and loads all ready to go and, well, it does seem like 140 grn is more than adequate for deer.

JFC, road gravel will kill a deer. Shoot what flies best in your rifle, and learn to [bleep] glass.

Killing them is the easy part, you numbskull.

I can only offer an example of one. The 140 AB at 2700 fps from my 7x57 and my oryx at 150 yards. In and out and dropped dead.

For MD, and assuming you're willing to shoot at whatever angle necessary, I'd either go with the 120gr TTSX, 150gr BT, or 140gr AB.

Accubond

Bone

My choice.

mine too...

Well, a statistic of one probably doesn't mean squat but I shot a decent size desert Mule Deer at about 75 yrds with the 140 gr. ballisitic Tip from my 7x57 at 2800 FPS MV on about the the second rib behind the shoulder. At impact, I heard a loud sharp crack which I believe was the bullet hitting a rib. There was a bloom of blood at the point of impact and the deer which was with a bunch of does turned down into a gully while the does ran off uphill. I have to wonder if that bullet actually penetrated into the deer or just blew up on that rib. I wonder because bad luck dogged my as I went up the hill. My right leg went one way while the rest of me took another direction and I tore all the cartilige out of my right knee. My hunting partners hearing my shot came over and although I asked them to find my deer, they were more concerned about getting me off the hill and to a doctor. I'm still as hell.
The bullets used were from a batch I bought when Nosler was still selling them in 100 round boxes. What did get my goat was they educed to 50 bullets to the box and maintained the same price. Dunno why they did it buy it's always kind of stuck in my craw. I believe those bullets may have thinner jackets than the current version.
Paul B.

Yep, the 140 AB would be a fine choice in the 7-08. Good luck with it.

I prefer the Accubond over the Ballistic Tip.

My only complaint is that fact that I usually find 1-2 of the white tips broken or off completely in every box.

Nosler should address the broken tips in my opinion. However, I will keep using them unless now. Though my favorite bullet is the Barnes TTSX and TSX.

I had tips come off several early 225-gn .338 caliber Accubonds. I talked to the dude at Nosler about it and damned if he didn't send me a box of 'em!

I've always favored penetration, for instance the bullet I've killed a bunch (in my world, lol) of blacktails with from a 7-08 was the 150 Partition. With the longer ranges involved with mulies I just thought I'd ask...

Either one will do you just fine Jeff, so would the 139 Horn and that's the slug I'd most likely run.

I've taken a ark or two of game with the 150 NBT out of my Mash and it just pounds them near or far. Point being, I'd sure not worry about the 140 NBT.

Dober

What you really wanted to say is "rock on"............

Thought I'd toss you a bone this time and let you handle it 4 me...

Rock the house bubba!

Dober

Jeff, Dober is right but I have used only the 140BT since it's inception in my 7X57AI and have had nothing but excellent results...never lost a deer. Several s.Texas 200lb bucks... nary a hickey. powdr

I've seen my brother do work on a bull at around 290 yards with the .270 140 BT. Definitely didn't bounce off.

Northern Great Lakes whitetail & Kansas with 139 Hornady, 140BT and the older solid base no problems. The largest buck weighed came out off the MN/Canuck border and went 260# dressed. How much bigger are mule deer than that variety?

Never weighed a Kansas deer but they appear substantial...:) Have run 140BT out of a 7x57 & 280.

Am loading the 140AB @ 2800ish for daughter's 7-08 elk hunt...

I have shot the 140 nbt out of a 7 08 with great success on whitetail. The same bullet in my 7rm has give me the same result. I only killed a couple with the 7rm becuase it is my backup, but nevertheless it has dropped both in there track. I've gotten a exit on every shot with both guns. Currently shooting the 140 in nbt out of sendero but have not hunted with it yet. Great groups tho

If you knock out shoulders, there is better out there than a 7mm 140 NBT.

And if you're a slat shooter, there are better than monos.

"Know thy bullet, and to thine own bullet be true!"

I think you have your answer there Jeff. At lower velocity, the NBT will expand reliably. You shouldn't have any bullet blow-up issues, even at close range. I think you're doing yourself a favor by using your lighter/handier rig on this hunt.

Believe it or not, the majority of mule deer hunting is not often done at really long ranges. It can lend itself well to long-range hunting, but often the land is too broken and you won't get a great long range shot unless the deer skylines. The draws, coulees, benches and finger ridges where you'll spot mule deer will keep you from seeing the deer from a long way off unless its on an opposing ridge from a long way away.

Yeah this is impossible for some first(or 2nd, third, 4th, or fifth) timers to wrap their head around.....for some reason they picture themselves having to dial up for a 600+ yard shot,and make a 2-3 foot wind call or they are doomed to failure.This is mostly untrue.I know mule deer hunters whose "take" of huge mule deer rivals or exceeds that of anyone posting here.....they kill them with simple gear and bullets,and none of these guys are "LR" shooters;but they do know how to hunt big mule deer.

No doubt this is sometimes true,in some western country,and you never know what you will bump into...and it may come from the fact that younger, less worthy mule deer bucks are famous for lolly-gagging in the open and can be easy to kill.

But by the time a mule deer buck hits 5.5+years old, and grows a rack worthy of consideration his primary,#1 defense mechanism is not being seen ,using cover and terrain to avoid detection in broken country,and he may be more expert at it than any other animal on the Continent,except a similar whitetail buck.He is cooler,smarter,more deliberate,and slower to panic than anything younger and dumber...and some cannot be glassed up or killed at distance by any means,because of where they live,and bed,and conduct themselves.Generally, they are smarter than us.

Running through a quick laundry list of some of the better one's I have killed or had a chance to kill, the distances were app: 250 yds (killed),225 (killed),175 (killed),60 (killed),70-80 (killed),340 (killed),50 (seen),and 30 feet ,(seen),325 or so.

Longest shot was on a 200+ non-typical wounded by a companion,at about 500 yards +-,shot with a 7 Rem Mag and 140 Nosler Partition at 3250.

Given the distances involved and the fact that angles are not always perfect,and that every one of these bucks weighed more than 200 pounds live weight (some a LOT more ),they were all mostly killed with bullets that penetrated well and still expanded at distance. I will defer to penetration over some other qualities,because distances are not overly long and I know a Partition kills splendidly both up close and out to 400-500 yards.

Watching hunters after trophy quality mule deer, I notice it isn't the LR shots and chances that get "blown"....IME there aren't that many of them. It is mostly the hurried chances at well under 300 yards and often much closer,that I've seen leave some guys slack-jawed and gawking when they should be up shooting,but lacked confidence to make a shot from a hurried and unsteady position with the clock ticking....they did not realize,that was their "chance",and blew it...sometimes that is the only chance you will have at true,trophy quality mule deer buck.

We've conversed on this point before but this is the hardest thing to teach and get people to do. Once you se that he's the one, your whole focus should be getting into position to kill it. IMO take the first makable shot you get. Don't wait for the "perfect" one.....

At that velocity, I would go with the BT.

Worth reading again...

I had one solid and standing rule in s.Texas. Never wait for a better shot! I did once in my younger days and it cost me. I felt like if I could see him within 400yds...I could kill him. powdr

Geez... you guys sound like my buddy: "if there's lead in the air, there's hope!"



I'm pretty ruthless about killing when it's time to kill. So I'm not worried there. I do feel I've got a weakness in my shot repertoire in the 200-350 yard range where things have to happen FAST. Much further than that and I need to get into a solid position anyway. I won't be beating myself up about not shooting at say 450 if there's not time to get right... deer wins.

Agreed. That's why I use Partitions and AB's. They perform reasonably well in both circumstances.

I'd not send an Accubond to do a job I'd not trust to a Ballistic Tip..... or visa versa. Too bad we've yet to see the 7mm 120 Accubomb.....

I've really become a fan of shooting sticks. Mine are made from really long arrow shafts with field tips that dig in well into the ground. A friend of mine that I took on a mule deer hunt commented on how fast I get down and ready to shoot. You have the summer to practice getting into semi-supported positions and getting an accurate shot downrange. Learn to use large rocks and various other readily available objects as well. You probably already know this, but don't rest your rifle directly on anything hard. Pad it with something, even if its your hand.

Thanks, yes. I've got a great spot for working on that intermediate stuff, and you guys have convinced me that it's the most likely range (if not closer) that I'll be shooting a mule deer at.

I have a .223 which is good for that sort of practice, as the recoil isn't a factor. Sometimes those improvised positions can slap you around pretty good- at least in my experience.

Note to self: pack some clay pigeons next time I do my hike/shoot!

If you'd shot both into mild steel plates at almost identical velocities, (7mm 140's) you'd know there is a difference betweenxt the two.

I'm thinking that DS has probably shot more than a whole lot of steel plates with probably every bullet he talks about. Like he said, BT's would get the nod pretty much everywhere an AB would, for me.

Mild steel plates make both poor targets..... and poor jerky. I've only personally seen about 10 accubond vs. Critter collisions..... and about 30 NBT vs. Critters..... so I have limited experience to draw on......

But, out of those 10/30...... I've seen more accubonds stop in fur covered stuff.... than ballistic tips. Atmitedly.... all critters died poste haste..... and very few needed another dose of either.....

I reckon if I ever do draw one of the coveted high country mild steel tags here in Colorado..... I'll definately heed your advice.....

I've seen a few collisions myself, with the liberal bag limits in Miss. & Louisiana and years spent culling feral hogs off of farms, my experience tells me there is a difference, especially when bone or bad angles are encountered.

Pass thru's on mature Russian boar were at best a 50/50 proposition with NBT's. Accubonds and Partitions were significantly higher. We quit using NBT's for that reason.

We had state permits that allowed us to shoot at night. We were required to recover every animal and report kills to the MDWF. This means tracking the runners in the dark thru corn or soybean fields.

A job made much easier when the critter has 2 holes to bleed out of vs. one...

The above is Knowledge gained from doing instead of guessing, but what do I know, I've only killed a couple of hundred deer and pigs.

No match for a guy who may shoot 1 elk and 1 mule deer a year...

Take sound shots with NBTs and schitt goes down..... I add the large for caliber Amaxes in here too.... 140/6.5, 162/7mm, 208/.30....