I've been hearing that said ever since I first joined talk forums. After spending my life chasing deer usually with a .30-06 in hand it had never occured to me. When I was younger everybody I knew that didn't carry a 30-30 or .35 seemed to use a .30-06, usually a pump. With 150 grain bullets the '06 always seemed perfect for deer to me at least. But is it "too much" and if so what does that mean exactly? I mean I can clearly see how the .458 WM is too much but I don't understand the logic with regards to the 30-06?

I don't think so. I use it more than anything else for deer. When I was a kid in MN, most camps had Rem 742's with 180gr RN power points or core-lokts.

90% of the deer I've shot have been with a Rem 7600, 30-06 and 165gr bullets of some sort or another.

But the deer can certainly be killed with less "powerful" cartridges.

years ago i always heard that a 30/06 was not a good deer round. it seems like everyone i talked to had wounded deer with a '06. i knew guys who bought them and sold them cheap because of that. consequently i didn't own one until about 5 years ago. as i got older, and got to see how people hunted and shot, i realized that the only reason that people wounded deer with an '06 was because they were lousy shots/hunters. the only downside to an 06 is that it has a lot of recoil in some packages. but my old 760 carbine with 165's is quite manageable and accurate. a 30/06 with 165 (or 150) corelokts is an ideal whitetail gun as long as you can shoot it well. that said, so is a 270, 308, etc, etc.

It's not, but it is a good reason to buy another gun.

FWIW, the largest deer I shot was with an -06 youth load.

Me either. My go to deer rifle is a 06 although I also use a 45-70. Personally I wouldn't use anything smaller than a .24 caliber for deer.

IMO it's not too much. Deer hunting is a pretty broad endeavor from smallish deer to big canadian bucks pushing 300 lbs and at various ranges. Can't go wrong with an 06.

My go to gun for the last 3 decades has always been an '06. I've killed a lot of deer with a 300 Savage too, but especially if I'm hunting where longer shots are presented, it's always the '06. It's been said a million times, but if you place your shots correctly, just about any centerfire rifle will provide acceptable results.

If you don't think so, it ain't.

The reason for that was back in the day the '06 was pushing very fragile 150gr pointed soft points that resulted in fist sized holes and too much bruised meat, etc, etc, but as was mentioned above, people making bad shots at game. As the cup and core bullets improved that kind of settled the matter of too much gun. Funny how you never hear that of folks shooting the ultra mags, wsm, and such lol.

I used nothing else for the first 20 years that I hunted (and killed) deer, including some scientific collecting. It worked every time.

That much power certainly isn't necessary, but it certainly does work every time. And actually with heavy bullets, meat damage is kept down pretty well.

Anything in that class will destroy a lot of meat if it hits the shoulder or haunch. Keep your shots in the lower half of the chest, just behind the leg and all will be well. I like partitions, or anything that performs like them because they open fast on broadside shots, but can penetrate when necessary. Most of my deer are taken inside 50 yards, but I've never felt over-gunned with an '06, .270, or .308. Go lighter (or heavier) if you want, but don't feel you have to. It's all good.

30 cal is too heavy
22 cal is too light

means 260 is dead on?

Yes and no. Depends on your needs.

We have some bean fields and cut overs that we hunt that are a hike to get across. We have started using the 30.06 and the Barnes 130 grain TTSX. Shoots very flat and accurate. Friend killed several out past 400 yards last year and they performed very well. Never recovered a single bullet - complete pass through.

Thinking of dropping back to the 110 grain TTSX.

Good advise same same with big 500gr BPCR projectiles.

No. A .260 is a tad light.


270 ... BEST IN THE WORLD !!!

Certainly not too much for deer when in grizzly country...:)

There are pinheads in this world who equate "more than the absolute minimum" as "too much." But mostly they're saying anyone who does it differently than they do is doing it wrong.

[bleep] 'em.

'06 is far from my favorite cartridge but it will kill deer. Anyone who thinks different is not thinking at all. Then again, so will any number of other cartridges.

It's possible that some of the people who have had failures chose the wrong ammo. A more heavily jacketed bullet meant for shooting heavier critters like elk at .300 mag velocities might not expand well on a broadside shot at 400 fps slower on a light target like a deer. No cartridge is free from that situation but with a lot of big-box gun counter folks who don't know anything about ammo selection pushing '06s at complete noobs who don't know anything about ammo selection, bad choices seem more probable.

I don't like the '06 but if forced back to one rifle for hunting medium game, a Kimber Montana in '06 and a big pile of good quality ammo with 180 grain bullets would be very high on my list of considerations.

Tom

no idea how it could be "too much." I personally prefer the .30-06 short, aka .308. it's only too much if you flinch when you shoot it and can't accurately put boolit on target.

For old style still hunting, driving, etc. it is excellent.. With the newer styles of bait hunting, food plots, and much private land with no one to push them.. I am sure smaller rounds work well.

'Zackly

I think a .30-06 is a fine deer cartridge. My first deer came from a .30-06 with 150 gr. federals. As I am sure lots of other people have. I also believe a .260 is perfect for most deer hunting, unless the "Deer" are elk and moose. Then we are back to a .30-06 as being almost perfect. It has more then enough power and such and for old style deer hunting as previously mentioned it is good on the moving shots. I would tend to stick with a good cup and core 180 to keep meat damage down a little.
I have also shot deer with a .458 and 500grs. , the meat damage was minimal , the deer ran a ways with that though!!!!!!!

Have you ever thought "that was too much gun" after you've just killed a great buck? Me neither!

its certainly more than is needed but if you like to hunt with it who cares?

I have given up thinking in terms of caliber for deer in particular, and if I ever decided I wanted to shoot something bigger there's no doubt in my mind caliber would be near the bottom of the list as well.

I purposely put together some .223 loads and killed a couple deer with them last fall. One, a doe that was a 200 lb deer dressed, had a 3 inch diameter hole through the off side shoulder meat. Itty bitty 53 grain bullets seem to me to work as well at that range as anything else. The lungs were wrecked, the heart was loose in the chest. No damn different that a lot of 30-06 killed deer with 130/150 grain Barnes bullets.

Does that mean that if a 30-06 is too much that a .223 with that 53 grain TSX is too much too? Damn fool question considered in that light now isn't it? If that makes a .223 too much, like a 30-06, then what the hell would be just enough?

Anymore, I look at how far I need to shoot first. Am I going to need to fight wind? Will I need to shoot through a lot of deer to hit the parts that will kill it? Which rifle do I want to use today? After shooting a "big" deer with an itty bitty bullet and getting performance that confirms what I have seen other people claim and photograph. I don't have questions about can I or should I. A fast twist, long barrel .223 can push a 70 grain TSX at 3300 FPS if I want to. I'd rather have to use that than a 30-06 with 180 RN bullets that I grew up around, especially for steep angle quartering shots. That setup can do everything a 30-30 can do and then has a whole lot left over to do things like killing deer well at 300 yards and further which is beyond what the 30-30 can only hope to do with a lot of luck at 200.

With the best of the bullets available today we can kill deer with fast rounds at very short distances without making a mess and wasting a lot of meat. I've done it at 25 feet with a 300 WM, 30-06s, .270s and seen others do the same. I have also turned it around and killed deer with equal or more damage at near 300 yards.

My suspicions of where too much might exist is on the high side of 40 caliber or bigger bullets moving at 3500 or so FPS. Too little might be .17 caliber, but if we had good copper bullets for them and fast enough twist barrels to handle heavy for caliber .17s, I suspect they could work pretty well. The former, I don't think I'd want to be working up loads for, and even once at a deer is probably more than I'd want to repeat.

Anything in between, just choose an appropriate load and bullet and it's all good.

+1

I use a 30-06 to hunt everything from as small as coyotes, antelope and mountain goats to as big as moose. I've shot bigger calibers and smaller calibers but I use a rifle/caliber that I'm comfortable and competent with.

I suppose that you can use a caliber that's too big for the game. I've shot rabbits and ptarmigan with a 30-06 and there was not much left. There are some calibers that are too big for me because I don't enjoy the recoil of those big bruisers. But I think until it's obviously way out of scale, any caliber that you are competent and comfortable with is OK.

KC

Seeing as I"ve shot deer with my 50 bmg... I would not call the 06 anything but works fine.

As long as the bullet choice is correct, shot placement correct, and distance/vs energy is good, I could really care less.

22lr works fine too. Not legal in our state but works fine.

I say use what you want to.

It is hell on 2x4's and shooting houses I can tell ya that!

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...BBQ_Beer_and_the_3_shot_buck#Post8511244

We could all use .223's and kill our deer. I'm not sure that's the best choice for any given deer in any given situation but for most situations it's fine. The new line of thinking though is that the .30-06 is overkill on whitetail sized animals and something along the lines of a .260 or 7mm-08 are just right. There might be some merit to that line of thinking. I've even abandoned the .30-06 in favor of the .270 for my deer hunting.

I don't think an '06 is too much. I use smaller and larger cartridges as well. Bullet construction is likely more a factor than the cartridge.

I do use 180's in an '06 with a view to reducing bloodshot meat.

The '06 will get you four feet in the air once in a while. That is a good sight.

I don't think it is too much, but it is definitely more than you need.

I'd pass on that idea. No need to handicap myself from the gate.

Can get four feet in the air all the time if you precisely place the shots.

Still amazed taht folks think that rounds have more to do with feet in the air than shot placement.

For just shooting a deer I doubt that any cartridge from .257 Bob to .375 Ruger is significantly better or worse than the next.

Choosing amongst them isn't about the deer it's about the where, the how, the rifle, the variety, the load, and the other game hunted or encountered.

When I started hunting 40 years ago conventional wisdom was that the 30-06 was a good middle of the road chambering and a 243 borderline. With todays advancements I consider the 30-06 much more powerful than needed and a 243 about right for deer.

But I've got several 30-06's that I ain't selling. If I were advising a new hunter, I'd probably tell them to pass on the 30-06 though.

I'm thinking along the same lines as you I guess in the sense that I've been shooting deer with an 06 pump since like 1979. I believe if you were to put a 10 shot clip in my 760, it's affectionately called 'the Amish machine gun' in Pa., LOL.

Anyways I've shot more than a few deer with that 06 and 150 grain bullets. If you put your shot right behind the shoulder, you break a rib going in and out, no meat loss, and they run about 35-40 yards as they bleed out and if you're quiet and listening, you can hear them drop.

But again, I've had the same result with other centerfire rifle calibers smaller than the 06, as well as 12 & 20 gauge slugs, muzzleloader with round ball and saboted bullet, and arrows.

While not the shooter, I've seen the same results with a 22 rimfire and 22 rimfire magnum.

If you can make the correct shot placement it doesn't matter what you use.

And if you can make that same placement, behind the shoulder just breaking a rib going in and out, I doubt a 460 Wby magnum would do any more meat damage than an 06 or any other caliber.
Of course, if you like to break the shoulders, it's a whole different ballgame.

That's about it right there.

I've killed more deer w/ it than any other cartridge because it's the one I hunt most often.

I've been playing with smaller diameter cartridges pushing bullets really fast and they're effective. Deer just aren't that hard to kill if you make the first shot count.

The 30-06 is my heaviest cartridge now and likely will stay that way for some time to come. Short of the dangerous game of Africa where it's mandated I can't imagine needing anything bigger.

I have shot more deer with the 30-06 than any other round. Saying it is too much gun would mean it kills deer too dead??????????? Dead is dead. The 06 has been killing deer dead for over 100 years and I am sure it will as long as you can hunt deer. If it tickles your fancy to use a different round then do so. The excuse that it will ruin more meat than other calibers would probably mean you shot it someplace where most other calibers would also ruin meat.

^^^^^^^ This. Hit them in the right place(like I said above also), no matter what you use, there will be literally no meat loss.

My very first center first rifle was purchased at the age of 16. It was a Remington 700 BDL in .30-06. I only kept it for a few weeks as it would not shoot straight.

I then purchased a Ruger M77R from a ZCMI clothing store in Ogden UT. I paid $199 for the rifle.

I still have that rifle. I Shoot 150gr Nosler BT's right now.

I've killed Elk and Mule Deer in Utah, Mule Deer in Nevada, and White Tail in Arizona.

It's been a good rifle to me.

I now have a small arsenal of fire arms. But, I would not hesitate to use my trusty .30-06 for any game here in AZ.

One well placed shot from an accurate rifle is all you need.

I've been hearing this stuff about 30-06 being overkill for all my hunting career, now over 30 years.

Look, just about any modern cartridge is going to spend the bulk of its energy in the dirt on the far side of the deer. Now tell me what overkill is.

I will say this, 35 Whelen IS too much for a whitetail deer. Don't get me wrong I love my Whelenizer, but everyone on the ridge knows when I've shot it. I've had complete strangers walk up to me and ask how big a deer I shot-- someone told them it was my rifle making all the noise.

I will also say 30-30 was a huge disappointment. I'm not saying it won't kill a deer, but I put 4 into a 70 lb doe back in 2002, and she went on eating. So somewhere between that and 35 Whelen is just about right.

I personally think a 300 Savage-type of cartridge is the optimum for whitetail at normal ranges, but 30-06 is a reasonable amount of overkill. I like overkill.

I have resolved to buy one more nice 30-06 bolt gun and then start working my way down. I'm 56, and I invested in a 25-06 this past year. I like the round. I like the reduction in recoil over my 30-06. I've decided the Whelenizer was my high-water mark, and now I'm going to work my way down.

Figure by the time I'm 90, I'll be sneaking around the home with a smuggled 22 LR popping them out by the shuffleboard court when no one is looking.

Dead is dead, right?
How can it be too much?

I've never killed a deer "too dead."

Like others have said, you can certainly do well with something smaller, but the old /06 is mighty effective. I got a shot at my best whitetail ever this fall. Due to past experience, I have complete confidence in the .30/06 I was carrying that day. Just as it has done so many times before, I pointed her where she was supposed to go, she went bang and I went to fetch my deer.

That being said, the results would have been the same had I been shooting a .243 or .257 Roberts, and although I have never done it a .223 with a proper bullet. As others have said, I've never had a deer go very far with any rifle I have shot one with if the bullet was put in the right place.

I am a big advocate of shooting whatever you like and have confidence in. Choose a reasonable cartridge, shoot a good bullet, and place them where they should go. Past that, make sure you keep your knife sharp!

A friend of mine really enjoyed shooting a doe a few years ago with a downloaded .375 H & H. Were I to find myself in possession of a similar rifle, I would do the same thing. Deer hunting is fun.

Again, for shooting deer over bait, an o6 may not be needed, but for other styles of hunting, as someone said, you can't kill a deer too dead.. Little calibers will work, if all goes well.. But when things don't go as planned, that is when the extra punch of a bigger caliber will help...

But my 9.3x62 and 458 AccRel are just Fun to shoot and deer are the only thing I get to hunt every year. So I guess I have way way to much for deer! Clint

Used to think the same thing, until I found with right bullets, even the small rounds run a bullet through a 200 pound or less deer from stern to stem and stem to stern and through bones, with no issues.

Even an 85 tsx 6mm at a paltry 2500 fps at over 200 yards will punch the chest of a 160 ish pound deer, and break the femur on the way out...

It's more than you need. From what I've seen, It doesn't really hurt anything as long as your bullets aren't too frangible.

The ought6 might be more gun than necessary east of the Mississippi and parts of Texas, but in the more open spaces of the West that I know and love it is just about right.

Wow! What kind of super powers do the deer there have? I've shot, seen shot and butchered a lot of deer killed with a .30-30. It don't blow their inards all over the hillside, but I've never seen a deer live through one vital hit let alone four.

Moosemike,

Grew up in hunting in PA with my uncles. Remington pump and autoloaders in 30-06 and 270 plus the Win 94 30-30 were the standard. One had a Western Auto revelation in 308 that was the cats meow at the time. Most things I read here are is such and such caliber enough for deer. The 30-06 is plenty. Not too much and certainly not less than enough. Todays bullets let us go with smaller calibers with confidence but don't think you could go wrong with the 06.

In my opinion the only reason for the 30-06 to be to much for deer is if you are recoil sensitive. Most writers I have read agree that the recoil of a 30-06 is about the most the average shooter/hunter can comfortably deal with. Average, as in not those of use who spend our lives at the range shooting and getting used to recoil! Personally of the rifles I have owned and hunted with only my .300 Win mag was more recoil than I could handle without a brake. That said I would rather shoot my .270WSM or 7mm Rem Mag. than any of the 4, 30-06's I have or have owned. M1 Garand not included. I have bad shoulders and for some reason the 30-06 has a recoil I do not like.

With all due respect you pegged my B.S. meter.



P

Same here. I've killed truckloads of deer with a 30-30, it kills as well as anything I've ever used including my 7mm mag I normally use. The only reason I'm not still shooting one is the rainbow trajectory.

The 30-06 is never a wrong choice for deer though. I agree with the poster that said the only reason not to use one is if the recoil is too much for the shooter. The notion that a particular round is "too much" is BS, it either kills them or it doesn't and the 30-06 certainly will.

I've fired exactly three shots at white-tailed bucks with a .30/06 and they were all bang-flops.

On the first one, I used Hornady's 190-grain BTSP and on the other two I used the W-W factory load with the 180-grain Power Point bullet.

That is a very limited sample size but perfect performance from the .30/06.

If it will kill elephants and brown bears,it stands to reason it has more power than required for a deer of any size....that doesn't mean it isn't an excellent choice and it's really a "no brainer" cartridge to use on any deer, about anywhere I've ever hunted them.

Who cares about a little over kill, whatever that is....(?)

Man if you think a whelen is loud, no one around you must shoot a high velocity small round...

Kind of like folks saying a 44 mag is loud, but they've never compared it to the fast 357 mags crack... they just THINK its gotta be LOUDEST in the woods because its bigger than anything....

I will give you my 50 bmg with brake is pretty dang loud though...

Too much? Well maybe a bit, but I used the same 30-06 and load (180gr SST's) on a Mule Deer buck and Bull elk last season (one shot each). Hard to beat the versatility of the 30-06. And if the shot happens to be on the long side you still have enough energy to get the job done. Recoil is not bad if you shoot a reasonable weight rifle. I find it to be 'just right'.

Let me ask you guys something, especially the very light caliber, or very light for caliber crowd. When you have a buck like this get up in front of you, quartering away,

[img:left][/img]

[img:left][/img]

[img:left][/img]

[img:left][/img]


are you going to be happily armed with a .223, or would you rather have an '06/180 gr partition or a 7mag/160 partition?

I wouldn't want no parts of a .223 in that situation but I wouldn't feel I need a heavy partition either. An '06/ 150 AB would suit me fine. I'm sure the NBT could handle the situation as well but I'd like it to be a 165.

Sure. Why not?

IMHO the answer is no, you certainly don't need a 30-06 to kill a deer or really any of our common NA game animals that weighs less than 400-500 lbs. On the other hand it certainly works fine and it doesn't cause issues, so what if it is a bit bigger than you actually need. The same could be said of many of the popular midsized rounds. A lot of people enjoy shooting it and that's reason enough . To the deer its all the same.

Point I'm making is why fool with a known, proven commodity for experimentation sake? No offense to the OP, but asking a question like "is the '06 too much for deer" is ridiculous IMO. It's interesting to me, that over the past 12 years chasing these bucks, and big whitetails, I've never had one hunter show up with a .223. Lightest cal has been a 7-08. I am well aware that .24's and .25 work well in the hands of those who know what they're doing.

You wanna spend $7000 to find out? Most poeple don't.

Excellent point JG...

It was an odd circumstance to be sure. A small doe came out near my stand-- maybe 15 yards. I plugged her. She spooked and hid behind a bush, and then came out again. I nailed her again. She started eating unfazed. The short of it is that after she got done eating, she turned and walked off with a massive arterial spurter before finally falling over.

We went 'round and 'round on this back when it happened on this forum. Somebody suggested Win Powerpoints, and I started using them, and have not seen the problem since. Still, the next year I invested in a Savage 99 in 308 WIN and have been using that for my Opening Day go-to rifle ever since.

I know folks love 30-30's and I'm trying to run it down. The point was to show there's a spectrum, at least in my tastes. 35 Whelen, even if I do take more deer with that cartridge than any other, is more than enough for whitetails. The 30-30 left something to be desired. 30-06 seems to fall in the high-end of the middle of that spectrum, at least for me. I love my '06 collection, and I really cannot complain about its performance. It has been my cartridge of choice when I figure I might have a shot beyond 150 yards, but I have also taken deer with '06 as close as 5 yards.

I get to hunt mule deer bucks every year, and know there's no magic involved with getting them killed. Shoot them in the bleedy breathy region and they die. Will a 223 be my first choice? Probably not, but if it's what I had in my hands, I wouldn't worry about it.

YOu make a great point really. I always go armed with what I feel I might need. Some days its pretty small and some days, its awful big or powerful.

If I am after an animal that I don't want to pass up whatever shot I get at whatever range, it'll be a lot bigger than normal and a lot stouter bullet. Barnes for sure.

If I"m shooting does and don't care if I get one or not, I might have my civil war musket. Or my 50 bmg or anything between depending on my mood.

The answer to this can be so variable, thats why I have more than one caliber in my safe.

Had I to choose only one centerfire round period, it might well be that I hunt everything with a 375 H/H...rabbits would do just fine with a light load cast bullet... and I feel could take on about anything in north america with such also...given the right load.

Folks that have wide open long shots might tend to worry most about drift... drop can be covered.

Folks that are in the thick stuff might want large frontal diameter, and dump as much energy in them as possible. Expanding bullet.

Me? I'd take on a 7000 dollar buck with a 223 no problem. But I just wouldn't be jump shooting em, would need em 200 ish yards or so and broadside standing still...but spending 7 grand I can assure you thats not what I"d show up with... not a 223.

Yes. With either my .22-250 or .223ai. If they work you pay. If they don't I pay.

I am the OP and the only reason I started the thread is because I keep reading that very statement made over and over on this here Campfire.

Don't put much faith in what you read here sometimes. Sometimes threads are simply a joke. And other times they can be turned into that.

It all depends on the situation. But as far as I'm concerned, I've never seen anything to big yet. Maybe bigger than needed or louder than needed but never seen an issue with using larger rounds. Unless you come from the ballistic tip light weight crowd like my BIL. Gave me 150 bts once for my 300 wtby. Wife shot a few does in the head and we never used em on body shots after those results....

I think as Enlightened Sportsman we need to be very sensitive to the anti-hunting crowd in our choice of cartridge. We wouldn't want to unnecessarily over-kill a deer.
We must consider their feelings on the matter as well.

Either that, or just treat 'em like test medium and blast away. This is my approach.

I have.

In my experience, I'd say 2 in 10 can effectively shoot a 300 Mag. That's after seeing hundreds of hunters come through camp and seeing the results (i.e. carnage) often left by the big guns.

And what if you don't get a shot? Big Al made a 195yd running shot, quartering away, on that 200" buck in those pics. You wanna take that shot with a 22-250/223ai? In 25mph wind? I'llPM you where to send the $7k if you'd like ? You've obviously never seen nor hunted in this part of the world. Not to mention the fact those big bucks weigh 300 lbs +. I'll PM you where to send the $7k if you'd like ?

My go to gun has my my 1955 Savage Model 99 in 300 Savage. It has killed a lot of Michigan Whitetails and I have never felt under gunned even with quartering away or toward me with the bullet going through about 4 feet of deer and winding up under the hide on the far side. I have shot deer with many different rifles and calibers over the years. They have all killed deer in I do my part in put the bullet in the engine room. I have seen several deer wounded with legs shot off by folks using magnums who are recoil sensitive and flinch and jerk the gun hitting the deer in a front leg or in the paunch. That is just a shame to wound the deer and have them blame the bullet instead of themselves. They should be using a gun with a recoil limit they can tolerate.

Sure, why not. If you're taking low % running azz shots in the wind anyway, you're looking for trouble no matter what is being used. But put a Baby TTSX into the pelvis or back of the head and you'll be eating mule deer.

I would believe you pg. We had a crack shot show up with a 30-378. He missed over 20 times in 4 days....complete misses. He was more scared of that thing than I was.

Then you'll get a shot or two every 5 years. A standing shot at 200+, swirling winds, with ultra light bullets is asking for trouble IMO.

No armor on any of them that I can see. I'd be just fine with shooting any one of them with a .223 and a 53 grain Barnes. I'd expect two holes and a dead deer at about fifty yards give or take.

The extra speed of the 223 AI or 22-250 make up for the lower BC when you're talking fairly close range, depending of course on what we're comparing it to.

Now I know you know your stuff pg, but I guess you guys think we just talk out our azzes about shooting small, light projectiles out here? We shoot coyotes, hogs, lots of everything all the time, in the wind, at targets, gongs. I've seen what swirling 15-25mph winds will do to bullets in person. Even the sniper guys don't hit stuff in the wind the first shot. I've seen the world's foremost trainer and his boys shoot in it, first hand. They miss the first shot, in swirling winds, a lot.

You just stick to that theory then. Fine by me. 50 yards is a far cry from 200 yds. I guess you think these bigazzz bucks just stand there and stare at us? I'd bet the farm if you ever drew a once in a lifetime AZ strip tag you wouldn't stroll up the mountain with a .223.

One difference between Big Al and I is I'm not shooting at a Deer
running at 195 no matter what I'm shooting or paying.

And that part of the world doesn't scare me.

Just answered your statement and gave yoy a choice.

Uhh yeah. Look at the numbers. Out to 250-300 yards or so, there's very little difference between say a 22-250 and a 30-06. And with the 22-250, you don't need to worry about drop. Just point and shoot.

I don't blindly believe what jbm says. As I've said, I've seen Hodnett and company in action enough to know.

I don't see how having a little more headgear than what most folks are used to changes anything. Big old mule deer bucks are certainly hard to find, but they die the same as anything else. They are just deer.

Huh. So what bullets at what speeeds were you using to come up with this theory?

The wind blows plenty freaking hard around here too, and I spent a couple years packing an M24 for a living. So I'm not exactly in the dark here either.

Then you probably won't get a shot, which is why I asked you what you'll pay if you don't get a shot. So you have to have them standing there staring at you, which regardless of what you read rarely happens with 185'+ bucks. I wouldn't expect you to be scared of it, just curious how familiar you are with it?

BTW boss, you're in no position to offer me a choice....it's my place, not yours.

Which is why I acknowledged that you know your stuff. They were shooting .223's at prarie dogs in the TX Panhandle. I have no clue as to speed, I just know what the wind was doing to those bullets. Thats all the help I can give you.

You know, I just realized I probably derailed this thread. I apologize to the OP, as it was not my intent. I was just stating my case, and why it is my case. I'll probably stick with my theory though. It's worked pretty good for 41 years. Battue, if you want to book a hunt shoot me a PM.

You're absolutely right about those big guys not standing around long. Old mule deer bucks are like a whole different species than young deer. But they aren't armored. There are too many big guys hanging on people's walls around this country that were expired via 22-250 and 220 Swift to discount their worth.

No, but it certainly is all about the "nut behind the bolt" !

I still fail to understand why anyone cares what the next guy is shooting, as long as it is adequate to the task of making a quick, humane kill. I have checked a lot of deer through check stations and have seen a lot taken by friends, family and guest hunters. Significant loss of edible meat is almost always a result of poor shooting and/or poor choice of bullet for the cartridge being used.

Admittedly, there are a substantial number of hunters who do not worry about any of this. At the end of the day, they are satisfied if they have an animal on the ground and tagged. We may not agree with them, but it's still an individual choice, even if it is made unconsciously, or with little or no concern. If they are not satisfied with the results, hopefully they will do a little research which will lead to a more satisfactory result the next time.

JGR,


First off I don't see where you derailed the thread. You wrote your opinion and that is pretty much what we do here.

Second, from what I've seen from members here who do use the .223 on Deer along with my and friends limited experience with them, I would have little concern in shooting the Bucks you posted with one. On top of that some of the AK crew has shown pics of some fairly hefty Black Bears shot with the same.

Third, my use of the word choice. It wasn't meant the way you perceived it. Perhaps I should have used offer. Then it would be your choice to accept or refuse the offer. Didn't even mean to get you riled up in any way. Figured it was a good chance to get a better than good deal on a hunt if you were willing to take the offer or bet if you wanted to call it that.

Now if the majority of your opportunities are at running Deer. Then I would have little interest. Have only shot one Mule Deer and that was in NM. Old guy on the downhill of around 20inches. Caught him bedded down, crawled up to around 100yards and waited for him to stand up. And if when I'm hunting around home the only opportunities I get are at runners, then I'm doing something wrong.

Big Al must be a heck of a shot. Does he pull that off often?

And not exactly sure where the Arizona strip is, but parents lived off and on in Chander when it was a dot on the edge of the desert. Visited them on occassion.

No problem battue. I know you're a good guy. Out there on our mule deer place, there are low deer densities spread out amongst lots of empty spaces. It's flat, sandy, a real b*^#tch to hunt. Most of the time you have to go into the brush/sandhills and dig them out, and they don't like it.....at all. Therefore the majority of our kills are on running bucks because we have usually gotten in right on top of them without either of us knowing it. Now I will say, if a guy is shooting a .223/TTSX at a standing broadside buck at close range, no problem killing it, but that's about the only way IMO.

I've seen Big Al kill three bucks like that out there, a 185, 191, and 201. I killed 2 like that out there, both 190's. There are lots of 190-200' bucks we never got a shot at. Little elevation and the wind make it a tough deal.

I couldn't make anybody a deal even if I wanted. Tags are spoken for the next 5 years.

Mudhen, I could care less what another guy shoots, unless he's undergunned, IMO, on my places. I don't like watching game run off wounded, never to be found. More importantly though, the landowner of the mule deer place lays down the law.....nothing under .25 allowed on the ranch for deer, so my opinion is irrelevant.

It's all good. Have fun and keep posting pics of those great Bucks.

If you're that slow grasping that I meant fifty yards after the shot and not before, I doubt you're going to comprehend much else.

You'd lose your farm. I hunt with what I choose that will handle the distance I need to shoot.Unless I have to shoot past 300 yards a 223 will work just as well as anything else.

I've taken deer with 8x57, 30-06, 270 and 300 Win Mag...I'll bet you a dollar none of 'em could tell the difference.

I've never seen any evidence to suggest that a 30/06 is too much for deer...but I've seen a lot of evidence that it does a thoroughly good job on them from any reasonable angle,and with good bullets some not so reasonable angles, too.

As one example,I recall a big doe in Northern NH wounded by another hunter,that I gave chase, crawling after her through the thickest dog hair second growth you could imagine for 45 minutes....she was so fast in here that despite several sightings I could not get a shot.I finally caught up to her,seeing her bedded about 20 yards away,but all I could see was from roughly the diaphragm back to the hips,and the tip of her nose....30/06 and factory 165 gr TBBC High Energy.

I aimed for the pelvic area and fired,expecting her to bolt out of there,but she was dead as a door nail by the time I walked over....a terrible shot and one not likely to be taken at an un wounded animal but killing is not always pretty. Sometimes we don't control all the circumstances,and something along the lines of a 30/06 with deep penetrating bullets can make a difference,even if it is a bit on the large side or considered a bit too powerful.

The 165 gr TBBC had smashed everything, breaking the hips and blowing out the off side handily....she just rolled over in her bed.Actually I know of one spike elk that expired after a similar hit from a 165 Nosler Partition. With bullets like these the 30/06 is no toy.

This kind of performance is one reason the cartridge is so popular back here,in thick woods, with fleeting opportunities(reality),where it certainly does not hurt to be throwing a little extra flack, which I think is where JG was coming from.

Would a 223 or 243 have given equally good results,even with today's super bullets? I don't know.

I agree with this. Long ago I stopped caring what others I hunt with use. Didn't change how I hunted or what I hunt with. Care even less what is said on the internet.

I can say that I hate to think how many miles I walked through the Maine woods and places in Washington County, dragging deer my father shot with a 22-250.

If you'd choose a .223 on a once in a lifetime big game tag, then I'd have say you have other issues, but hey. We're not talking stand hunting here. BTW why don't you post up pics of all those 190" muleys you've smacked with that .223, or even 175+ whiteys. I love pics of big bucks.

If you think the 30-06 is to powerful then use the 308 Win or 300 Savage

One of the guys who favors small calibers mentioned that he was concerned about the lack of a blood trail when game was taken with a small caliber.. So far all had gone well for him.. But given hunting it is only a matter of time..

Just curious here. Because you are so anti-22 caliber on big deer, you must have a decent amount of experience using it under those conditions to come to such a conclusion?

or a 30-06 shooting reduced loads with the 125 BT

Here's where I saw all I wanted to see. Location: Cimarron River Oklahoma Panhandle, a place where huge whitetails live and where I hunted for 5 years in the mid 1990's. My friend and his son were coyote killing machines, with greyhounds, rifles, decoy dogs, you name it. They killed a few hundred per yar. The kid was 11, and loved his 22-250 and I did too for 'yotes and prarie dogs. Hunting wheat fields up there is a big deal. I don't personally like to sit still that long, but me and the boy (Pedro we called him) had spotted a huge whitetail(180 class) buck several times coming in and out of the field, so we set up on him. We set up on the field very early one morning, and for some unknown reason all the kid brought was that -250, with core lokts (IIRC, granted it was not a Barnes anything). Nevertheless, he hit the buck at 150'ish yards on the money, and we watched the buck run for about a mile. We obviously trailed him as far as we could, then bailed to get reinforcements. A full day and a half later, no deer, no buzzards, no nothing. A couple of years later, same thing, on a 170'ish buck chasing a doe.

So in my experience of exactly 2 occasions, on huge whiteys, my narrow minded, hard headed self saw all I want to see, once again, granted no Barnes were present.

On the other hand, I've seen several animals get up and run off, never to be found, when clients shot aoudad or muleys with bigazz calibers like 30-378's and 300 Wby's, but they were overgunned flinchers, which is just as bad as being undergunned IMO.

Anyway, you asked and I am just being as honest about it.

I'd think had the right bullet been chosen for the 22-250... corelokts would be my last choice as a big game bullet at those speeds, then for a standing still broadside shot you'd have been fine.

But when you get to the ones you have seen/shot, that you jump up and have only the choice to put a big one in and need it to penetrate and break bone, well thats not the territory I'd trust a light bullet regardless the caliber. Heck for what you have done at times, my experiences with the 300 wtby and 180 partitions on deer and nilgai would make me think my best choice might be a 338 win mag and 210 barnes ttsx...

shot placement is key. just cause one can whack prairie dogs all day long with a rifle doesn't mean buck fever won't kick in and make him less on that day. without a recovery, it's hard to say. every deer we've recovered after the fact (that was lost til the birds found it) was due to poor shot placement. I personally have never seen a "bullet failure", it can happen, but gets the blame more than it should I think. At least IME.

I recently built a 6x45 for my wife because I wanted a heavier bullet and the 70 grain NBT sure beat out the smaller .224 partition by a good 16% in bullet weight. I'm sure glad I did that because she cleanly took a nice whitetail buck last fall and the shot was head on. it only got 24" of penetration on the deer, and no discernible blood trail, but that was ok because the deer only went 4 bounds from the shot site before piling up (so we never looked for blood).

I was also unaware that an increase in antler size meant they are more bullet resistant. is 150" the threshold?

There's no such thing as a core-lokt in 22 caliber. Classic bullet failure which was blamed on cartridge failure.

prairie goat, I haven't shot many over the years, but are the 55 grain Rem. factory loads not core-lokt??? I don't know, been 20 years since I bought a box and just figured that is what they were..

The wheat field buck was standing still, broadside. A 7mag with 160 partitions would have killed the livin' schittt out of him...

Hey, like mudhen mentioned. Why should we care what people use....I don't. Could care less. However, in my world, where it's relatively flat, open, windy, very unlikely to have a standing broadside shot, big bodied game and possibly be mega racked trophy size if you're lucky......I personally am in no way toting a .223, ever.


I'm obviously not the only one who feels this way. Copied and paste job from Jicarilla Indian Res...home of some of the biggest muleys on the planet, and more B&C's than any other place on the planet by far.

Straight from the Jicarilla Game and Fish:
� General Mule Deer Draw Hunts $17,500 7 permits total.
16. Minimum caliber for all elk, deer, and bear is .243,

Note the IIRC in my post?

Those are Remington Pointed Soft Points, which are a varmint bullet.

Have seen very good performance from the Hornady 55 grain and 60 grain, as well as Winchester white box 55 grain 22-250.

The one thing that gets me is in every pizzing match about caliber size we get the same arguments. The small bore crowd will argue bullet placement all day long like those who chose larger calibers can't shoot. They will brag about there will power to pass a bad angle or low percentage shot. Well I have not killed the amount of game many of you have being I live in PA and we can only kill a few deer a year and have no hogs.

But I know enough to know a 30-06 allows more room for error that a .223. I read guys talking about seldom getting a DRT and how rare they really are! Well I am here to tell you pucky! I have dropped deer in their tracks at 300+ yards with shots that were pulled into the liver. Weather I pulled the shot or the wind caught it or the deer moved. The shot was not where I wanted it but the 165 grain NBT out of my .300 Win Mag. has so much shocking power it turned the insides to soup. I just don't believe a .223 would have done that. JG is talking large deer not because they are harder to kill but because he knows if someone pays $7K for a trophy deer hunt they want to shoot if they get a shot and that shot might most likely be one that is NOT going to be a perfect shot. I for one want every advantage if I pay that kind of money for a hunt.


I lost a deer years ago using a .243 with light spitzer bullets. The gun was my father in laws and I used the ammo they always used. I got what I thought was a great behind the shoulder shot as the deer went up a hill 50 yards away. The was not broadside but straight down on the back. I obviously missed the spine. The doe dropped to both front legs and then took off like a freight train. Blood petered out after a hundred or so yards. I know without a doubt in my mind I hit her good. My brother in laws reply was you got to hit them in the ribs with that gun! Well had I still had my 30-06 at the time my shot would have put meat on the table. Wrong bullet maybe and wrong placement for said bullet! This year 400 yards give or take a couple I dropped a big doe with my .257AI and 115 grain Partitions. Broke a rib going in and out. 10 feet death stumble and she was in the snow. Proper bullet and proper placement.

So, 243 = bad and 0.014 more diameter (.257) = good?

Yep

No proper bullet and placement = good. Bad bullet and bad placement = Bad

However had I been using a larger caliber like the 30-06 I believe bullet placement would have been fine. Who knows if they had better bullets for the .243 back then maybe the .243 would have been fine.

Point is had I been paying for the hunt and that doe had been a huge trophy I would have lost it. That has taught me alot. Now this was over 25 years ago I lost the doe to the .243 I have learned much and know better how to match my situation to the gun I use. I knew that my .257 had enough to make a clean kill on a standing broadside unaware doe.

The old 30-06 is a great killing machine.

But as to using lighter chamberings on deer, you have to use a good bullet. Any of the responses talking about light bullets blowing up on broadsides simply means that a varmint bullet was being used.

22 and 24 calibers with good bullets penetrate just as much as a 30 caliber, if the same type of bullet is used (say a Barnes or Partition). The small caliber just doesn't make as big of a hole.

I am never gonna give up my rem model six pump 06. I killed my first elk at 407 yards in very heavy winds and my first deer at 466 yards. My dad gave me the gun after trading a puppy for it. I shoot nosler ballistic tip 180 grns pushed by accurate 3100. This year for my elk hunt I'm taking g my new bud 300RUM sendero. It will be hard to leave the 06 behind in the safe. So no its not too much gun. I am a believer in heavier bullets from all I have read so I'll stick too what works in my gun.

Back in my early graduate school days, I needed to retrieve a collar from one of our radio-collared deer. Because I didn't have a collecting permit, I called the local game warden. He told me to go ahead and shoot the deer. All I had with me was my .30-06 and some 125 or 130 grain Speer hollow points that I had been using on coyotes. I shot the buck (a large south Texas deer) in the neck. The deer died, but I found a large piece of the bullet jacket stuck in the deer's ear. That taught me all I needed to know about selecting the correct bullet for the job at hand.

For twenty years I used a tang safety Ruger m77 in 30-06 with 165 Remington corelok factory loads with a walnut stock to kill 100s of hogs and approx 25 deer until I started learning on the internet and in hunting camps that the ruger is not accurate, the 30-06 is a lobber ,that you cant rely of factory ammo and im totally screwed if it rains because my wood stock will swell up. So after I learned all that i spent thousands and thousands of dollars on new rifles and calibers only to get a real education. That I had the right rifle for me to start with. I will admit , I did have a lot of fun along the way.

No! It's merely bait for an argument. And a 458WM with a 350 gr bullet running at the bottom of its load parameters works fine on deer.

A buddy of mine went through the small cartridge fixation about ten years ago. He had failures that he tried to cover up. His wife spilled the beans on the deer that he failed to recover. After losing a really nice deer he returned to using the .30-06/fair weather and the .270/foul weather. Like JG, I know of guys that won't let anyone hunt their place with smaller cartridge guns. Thier place, their choie.

A person say'n an 06' is too much for deer probably can also have too much gas in there cars gas tank....

Interesting. I wonder what his rationale was there.

My guess is one is SS and the other ain't.

Been using smallish cartridges for deer since the 1970's, starting out with a 6mm Remington. Grandpa used an early .257 Wby back in the 1950's. I'm all sorts of hung up on the .25-06 the past eight years or so. That doesn't mean my sons and I don't sometimes use the .308 Win or .30-06 for deer though, not at all.

Is the .30-06 too big? Gosh no, it's still pretty much perfect for the guy who wants one hunting rifle for deer, bear, elk or whatever... And it just happens to do a bang-up job on deer of course. With the .30-06, I'm happiest with 165 Noslers.

Long live the .30-06! Just wish I could get mine out hunting more!

Regards, Guy

[quote=GuyM].

Long live the .30-06! Just wish I could get mine out hunting more!

Amen to that brother.

The story of modern rifle cartridges by RJY66.

In the beginning John Browning and Winchester created the Model 94 and the 30-30 and designated it as a sporting rifle and cartridge. And they saw that it was good and they were right. It put the old hyphenated black powder cartridges used to win the west pretty much out of business, and was and still is used to kill cargo ship loads of deer and other game.

Later, after having been given hell in the Spanish American war by the German 7x57, the U.S government said let us create an American version of the 7x57 in God's own 30 caliber and let us copy the Mauser rifle because perfection can't be improved upon. Thus the 03 Springfield and the mighty 30-06 (eventually) was born. This configuration was used to help win WW1. Later a semi automatic version was created called the Garand and used to win WW2.

After the wars Americans started using military surplus Mausers in 30-06 for hunting. They found it to be more powerful than the mighty 30-30 for shooting game at long distance, but the 30-30 in the lever action carbine is so perfect that even the mighty '06 could not make it extinct. In any event America adopted the '06 as its favorite hunting rifle finding that it pretty much kills everything that needs killing. One fellow took a Remington 700 in 30-06 and went forth, slew everything he came across , and wrote a book about it.

So this was how it came to be that John Browning and the U.S. government gave unto the world all that could every be needed to hunt North American game. Shoot deer with a 30-30, shoot everything with an '06.

Then a problem arose. Every able bodied man in the U.S. either owned a 30-30 or a 30-06. How could the gun companies sell new rifles when everyone already owned at least one? They said unto themselves let us take the perfection that is the 30-06 and let us make shorter cases, let us neck the caliber up or down, even let us make bigger cases and call them magnums. Let us basically make a 30-06 and call it something different than a 30-06 so we will have something new to sell. With the help of marketers and gun writers the plan was executed flawlessly and a plethora of redundant cartridges flooded the market and were sold to eager buyers. This one kicks less than an '06 they would say, this one is more accurate than an '06, this one has a shorter case than an '06, this one is a little more powerful than an '06....and so it went, but basically, most bottle necked cartridges sold today are pretty much copies of the '06 (or 7x57 maybe) and do for the most part the same thing.....shoot bullets and kill stuff. So when selecting your first rifle, you have to decide if you want an original 30-06 or one with a different number stamped on the barrel. It is not a huge deal which one you get.....total ford vs chevy scenario on steroids.

Still the 30-30 endureth. Having been technically obsolete practically since its inception, millions of Americans still goeth forth and slayeth their deer with a 94 or 336 every year. Let him who possesseth wisdom and discernment ponder this.

The end

Unless an animal is recovered, we don't "know" anything about how a load performed. We can guess, speculate, wish, or hope, but that's about it, and a guy who's just lost a nice buck he thought he had in the bag ain't exactly an unimpeachable source.

Sounds like his wife was though.

Good post. I still prefer the .270 though.

I've killed deer with a 308 win loaded to factory 30-06 velocities. Think it's a great deer cartridge.

Where I hunt, the same can be said for big Whitetail bucks. They are usually moving on through when you spot 'em. Whenever we have one that does appear to cooperate and give us a standing still shot, it usually ends up being younger than we thought and has a serious case of ground shrinkage! The big ones don't get big by being careless.

You would be correct sir. .270 is a Ruger Stainless boat paddle and the .30-06 is a Savage 110 blued with a laminated stock. Either of these has worked pretty well for him.

NO..

Why would a .458WM clearly be to much?

The .30/06 works great on deer with plain cup & core bullets, no premiums necessary.

because the 30-06 is too much!

I shouldn't probably have to answer that.

The whole thread is humorous. No, a .30-06 obviously isn't too much for Deer. Has not ever been considered so, so why would it become so to enlightened hunters of 2014. And neither is a .458WM.

Reminds me of some of the foolish chat I see posted on the web sight of the Eaglet hatched in Pittsburgh yesterday.

Sorry, maybe you can start a more "appropriate" thread for us to talk on. I didn't realize you were "above" this one and wish you wouldn't have stooped so "low" as to post on it. Laffin'.

Damn touchy people. You ask a question, I ask a question. Your reply is a weak wink, so I say what I think.

Perhaps Steelhead is right.

I'm thinking a 12 Gauge is way too much for a wee little Dove.

Probably. I like the 20 for them.

Sorry, I was just in Queens on Thursday. Maybe some of their "manners" and "patience" rubbed off on me.

Of course a 30-06 is too much for deer, It'll kill 'em.

It's worked on everything from gophers to elephant and was a mighty fine sniper round for Carlos Hathcock and many others. I can't find any faults in it. In the wrong stock it can be much for young or recoil sensitive shooters but that's it.

If you skin and process your own deer, you'll see a great deal of damage from your 30-06. This is largely due to high velocity. In contrast, medium velocity cartridges such as 30-30 and 35 Remington do not produce as much damage. But one of the best fast killing but almost no meat damage cartridges is 44 MAG. A large wound channel is produced by a fast expanding bullet such as Hornady XTP but the lower velocity seems to limit the damage.

Sherwood

I butcher all my own game. Since I aim behind the shoulder I don't have a mess to deal even when using the 30-06. When I was younger and aimed for the shoulder it was an issue and I had switched to the .30-30, .35 Rem, and .44 mag for about ten years because I was tired of throwing shoulders away.

The 44s got some limitations if your shots can come at 200+ yds.

How and where people hunt plays into things more than is thought. Just the last couple posts can tell a lot about how folks hunt. Someone like myself who sets up to watch fields at some distance usually get to take good broadside shots at unaware deer. Placing our bullet right behind the shoulder gives that spectacular DRT performance and damages little if any meat from cartridges like the 30-06.

The 30-30 and 44 mag on the other hand would do me no good but put them in the woods stalking or in a stand and as stated things change. When you are in a situation where shots will be close or at various angles not only bullets styles but even caliber size can and does change the outcome of the shot. No one will argue bullet placement is key. But the manner and style of bullet we place in the kill zone does. If you shoot a deer through the front shoulders with a 30-30 with a 170-180 grain core lokt at 75 yards or the same deer with a 30-06 at 75 yards with a 150 grain Nosler BT you are going to see a difference.

Deer can be killed and put right on the ground without any meat damage. No searching for a blood trail, no blown up meat. Caliber, bullet choice, and bullet path to the vitals all play a part. The sate of the deer's awareness also plays a big part in how they react after the shot as we have discussed here on the Fire before.

My situation lets me shoot most of my deer totally unaware they are in danger. I get a very high percentage of DRT kills. The spectacular drop them in their tracks kills everyone wants. Except for some hair and splatter from the bullet exit I usually only have a little puddle of blood under the deer and maybe some coming out it's mouth when I get to it. There is no magic caliber or bullet. Many variables come into play and anyone who has hunted and killed game for any time knows this or they have not been paying attention.

In a nutshell........

You do not NEED a 30-06 to kill deer, but it sure kills deer well if you WANT to use it. Many of us WANT to do so.

So ends today's lesson.

Amen

Well after 151 posts of opinions ,situations, tactics ,bullet types ,weights powders and this and that your post pretty much sums it up.

From the other thread. IMO your comment there is just a variation of the theme of the question you asked here. Your 'feelings' regarding magnums are no different that how many feel about using the 30-06 on deer. They don't really do anything better than smaller chamberings on deer. I know I've seen very little difference between a 260 Rem and a 30-06 on deer.

I was gonna say, I saw that quote and I was like "hey wait a minute, I didn't post that in this thread"? You had me going for a moment.

If you are getting too much meat damage simply load heavier and slower. Easy fix.

I've read through this thread and here's my take. If you're wanting to take any old deer, the .30-06 will work just fine, but is certainly more gun than is necessary. However, IMO, if you're after true trophy bucks (and killing trophies is important to you like it is me) I think the .30-06 is an outstanding choice. Indeed, it has been my choice on most of my trophy whitetail hunts.

Mature bucks are big of body and tenacious of life and can take a lot more lead than just any old deer. And in my experience, I think all the hunters I've personally encountered that have shot their share of big ones over many seasons have agreed with this. As I look back, I can't remember any experienced trophy hunter who carried less than a .264 WM when they were serious about shooting horns.

unless those antlers grow in a shielding fashion over the vitals of the deer they are no harder to kill than "regular deer". in my experience most hunters are overgunned for that reason, they want to be sure to have enough gun for when the buck of a lifetime comes along. I also know many who flinched because of it, the majority of that is lack of practice. and I have seen guys lose a buck of a lifetime because of poor shooting due to lack of practice as well. there was a thread in the elk forum of guys using a 243 for elk with great success, so I doubt a mature deer would be any harder to kill. JMO

I'd be very impressed by a buck I wouldn't tangle with using my 300 Savage. He'd need to come in upwards of six hundred pounds.

NEED has forever been a "four letter word" for Loonies...

DF

I killed my first deer in North Carolina with my .30-06. More followed. I used 150 grain Sierra Gameking bullets and IMR 4064 powder. I still do. I don't think it's too much gun because it doesn't destroy a whole heck of a lot of meat. I've found bullets sitting in the far side of the animal's hide. Spent. It never blew big holes through them like my .300 WSM does, so I would not say "too much gun." A clean kill and not a lot of meat destroyed would be my goal, and a .30-06 does that.

Any chance you're using pretty close to 52 grains of powder?

The 30-06 Springfield is the standard of the world.

It's not too much rifle for deer.

Of course it may kick and not be as light as some what to carry however it's in the middle of just right!

I shot my second deer in VT in 1954 with a 30-06 handload I made. The rifle was a sporter P-17 Enfield my late dad and I blued and put a Bishop stock on.

The bullet was a 180 Sierra BT over a full load of 4350. The shot was about 50 yds.

I'm a sissy. 48 grains I think.

So you are shooting a 300savage-06. Not a bad idea, especially if you think standard 06 is too much for Bambi or whatever. 30-30wcf-06 is also available. Both are fine calibers hiding in 30-06 rifles everywhere.

The 52 grain load is a classic that has worked well in a lot of rifles. It's about max at standard 30-06 pressure which means it isn't ragged edge.

I agree with you completely. If all I hunted were Doe and yearling bucks I'd just use a .22-250. But the mature bucks are what I'm really after so I carry more gun.

I've found that any flavor of .30-06 150 grain bullet at about 2900 fps is pure magic on deer.

With apologies to a C&W singer whose name I can't recall:

"Too much gun, what's that mean?
Like too much money, there's no such thing!
It's like a girl too pretty, a car too fast . . ."

I ain't never had too much gun!"

Just another of the benefits of handloading

I was hunting West Virginia one year and found an unusual loaded round near the parking lot of the public hunting ground I was at. I have found plenty of loose rounds (Guys loading their pockets in the dark) and sometimes whole boxes. That was the first time I ever found a .416 Rigby. Kind of makes a 30.06 seem lame. What ever makes you happy. I never really hear about "Too much" gun, usually the arguments are over "Not enough" gun.

For 108 years the .30/06 has demonstrated competence in most everything asked of it. Why question it now when we have the best powders and bullet selections in ballistic history.

You guys need a drink. Come to think of it, I do too.

so is it age, weight or antler size that makes them harder to kill? my wife took a 3.5 yo 180 lb (dressed) 4x5 WT last year with a lowly 6mm-223 head on, right in the chest. bullet went 2' before stopping in the guts, deer ran 50'. they don't become bulletproof over time.

When is a cartridge to much? I have used a 30-06 on deer and elk with great success. Never had a doubt about it abilities.

I agree, 99% of centerfire cartridges are plenty to kill deer with, regardless of the deer's age/size

I don't think it is a matter of needing a bigger cartridge for trophy's. I think it is a matter of just feeling like you have a more capable one. Not unlike guys having a go to rifle. Some guys just have a certain rifle they feel has never let them down. So much of our hunting habits are slightly superstitious. For years I wore the same Carhart coveralls and old plaid wool shirt. Same knife, same hat same gun. Then as I got new guns, knives and such I would filter the new in. I squeezed into those Carharts the last year I wore them and I believe I even cut a patch off that old wool shirt to carry once it got to small and battered to wear.

In my mind that is the same as guys feeling they need a bigger caliber for trophy deer as apposed to just a normal hunt on the back 40.

Not here in NEPA....wish I had a dollar for everyone that I know who used one.

Asking if a 30/06 is too much for deer is like asking if size 12 shoes are too big-
If the shooter is a 90 pound 12 year old and the rifle is an ultra lite 30/06 pushing 220 grain Noslers over a red line load of 4831 and the deer are 50 pound Florida Keys deer, it might possibly be too much.
If the deer are 300 pound northern whitetails, and the hunter is Lanny Benoit, it probably isn't too much for deer.

I guess one could ask if a 12 gauge is to much for rabbit?

As usual the conditions under which you hunt deer are quite important also.. Hunting private land with long seasons and either sex hunts make for a hunt where the hunter can be selective about the animal and shot he takes.. As someone pointed out if you hunt for mature bucks on public land, it is more difficult to get a good shot especially at good bucks.. When I was a kid, my grandfather shot a .30-06.. He killed a couple deer with a .32 spl. then decided he wanted something else.. He hunted with the old 06 the rest of his life.. One year one of our neighbors bought a .222.. It was new on the market in those days.. The first day he succeeded in crippling a pretty nice buck and it got away.. As the incident was discussed around the fire that night, grandfather's comment was, if that sob had a rifle instead of a mouse gun, he would have gotten that deer..
When you shoot small guns, they work much of the time, but when something screws up, it is the animal that suffers..

OK, but a 222 in the days when that size bullet was either a varmint or target type doesn't say anything about a 243 loaded with a game bullet today.

I hunt public lands in PA. The deer usually come past running. 270's and 30-06s make a lot of sense given the circumstances.

Projectiles in the order of 80-150 grains will work wonders on most species of deer - what you fire them through is purely up to you.

Like Boxer says " Boolits matter not headstamps" ......absolutely!!


Gus

Yes Moosemike when hunting public land it is nice to have a little extra knockdown. More chance you won't have a far tracking job. I don't know about other places but guys in PA will steal a deer in a heartbeat before you get to it.

You got that right. And if your deer falls over dead in front of them. They won't hesitate to put a "finisher" in it and tag it themselves.

I have had it happen to me. I forget where you are at in PA. I am over in Washington county.

Lebanon county. Amish paradise.

Nice I hear they get a little pushy come deer season.

Does it really matter if a 30/06 is a bit of overkill for deer?

I mean, after all, it's always been intended to be a Big Game cartridge; not the "perfect" deer cartridge,whatever that is.

Yeah, they push off everybody elses properties.

Nope, it doesn't matter one bit. But it's made for a great thread.

Mike it has been.....uuhh.....entertaining.

I suppose it could be argued that anything above a 22 rimfire is "over kill" for deer. Nothing like a double tap to the hat to define "sufficient"...we can start a thread!

You'll have to start that one. I made enough people sore at me for daring to question the almighty '06 in this one. FWIW it was tongue in cheek. I started it mostly to call out the characters on the 'Fire who keep saying the aught six is too much for deer. I gave them a place to make their case but oddly enough they didn't seem to show.

Oh well, I'll keep plugging deer with the .270 and .30-06 I guess until someone "convinces" me I'm wrong.

A 30/06 is never really "wrong".

Sig-worthy. I'll likely never own another though. With today's bullets a 308 doesn't give up much to an 06.

TAK: That is true.

Today's bullets have changed many things from years gone by. But more so is factory ammo being provided with these bullets. Now even the non reloader can get ammo with quality bullets.

Bob, no it does not matter if the 30-06 is 'overkill'.

I have shot 5-6 deer with a 300 WSM and 180 Partitions. Works great, almost as good as 270.....grin

I agree Sam.. Must have shot close 100 deer with various .300's.. Never had them complain about being hit too hard..

To me to much gun is if you are putting up with more recoil than you are comfortable with when it is not needed. You may need a .375 H&H for A big Grizzly so the recoil is necessary. But to put up with that recoil to just kill a deer would be overkill in my book. Now if the recoil really don't bother you then go for it.

None of the deer I ever shot with my .300 Winny had any more damage than had they been shot with a 30-06 or a .308.

Sam/ WCH: I have had the audacity to turn a 300 Win Mag with elk boolits on them...guess what it works! Almost as good as a 270, too!

Course sometimes I had elk on the same hunt so that is my excuse.

Ever notice that with those 300's you can hear the WHOP! at 300-400 yards?

One of my favorite antelope set-ups is a 30/06 with 200 grain nosler partitions. Makes it easy to hear the hits, and it doesn't ruin much meat! Penetration is at least adequate...

Yes and the quote; " Yes, you can have your Elk, but would you mind if I take my saddle off it?" happens just as frequently out West. Must be those damn traveling Pa hunters.

Right???? The world some live in never falls to amaze me.

Fred I bet that works good too!

I am a very observant person. Over the years I have hunted other states on public land. I have hunted areas that are overrun with deer and get shot out in 2-3 years. The common denominator seems to be an influx of PA license plates in the campgrounds. Seems pretty obvious to me that we are either better shots(I really doubt that due to the wounded deer I have killed in PA)or PA hunters simply know how to hunt deer. I have never had somebody run up and tag a deer I shot. On the other hand, I don't hunt 100 yards from a road either.

These days you just don't see all that many hunters in Pa. Especially after the first day. Have shot running Deer here, but it is not the norm. Happened more often when we used to put on drives, but even then most we're trotting. About 5 years ago I shot the first crippled deer in a long time.

Then again, those from the eastern part of the state are notorious for being lousy hunters. The Harrisburg/Phiily crew most especially, and that makes about as much sense as Pa hunters having the tendency to tag others kill.Yes it has happened, but probably not more frequently than in the rest of the country. Yes there was that incident where there was a confrontation between land owner and hunter that made the news. I seem to remember a similar situation up in Wisconsin.

How can one of the most widely used Deer rifles in the country be too much and when does one carry too little? Where is perfect?

Funny stuff. Depending on how you look at it.

perhaps a better title to the threat would be "30-06, is it plenty for deer or just right?"

because the general consensus is it's a classic and is plenty powerful for any deer that walks north america. the rest is just verbiage.

Perhaps it is too much if one uses 200s. A little less too much if one uses 180s.
Almost perfect nirvana with 165s and possibly lacking with 150s�.

Funny [bleep]�.

Where might I find this "Harrisburg/Phiily" crew? I'll have to be sure to avoid them. And just where is Phiily? Sounds like a bad place! This is hilariouser than schidt! Almost as funny as how seriously you take this thread and how sarcasm sails right over your head.

I love humor and from the start I've found it here. Thanks, you've got it going on.

Nice avatar. What did you like better, his scorched earth policy in Georgia or his plans to have the Bison eradicated to force the Plains Indians into submission??

Can't say I liked either.

Unfortunately times call for difficult choices that history always doesn't look favorably on. I suspect he would have been thumbs up on the A Bomb also and most of the greatest generation were enthusiastic about the decision.

Sarcasm sometimes has its place and other times not so much.

Sometimes just as you close your eyes and yank the trigger the deer jumps behind a tree then all of a sudden it is the rifles fault.

That is when carrying a 30-06 comes in handy. If the tree is small enough the bullet will go through. May have to pick some wood splinters out of your deer meat. (Not a joke)

Havent heard many complaints to date. But then again, none of the game is alive today to talk.

I have several variations of the '06 family in the safe. Even turned one '06 into a 280ai. Even so, still have a 30-06 that I bring on hunts. Its a standard go to cartridge if a rifle goes down in camp.

It's the most popular caliber by a long shot, you go figure it out, what a dumb a zzz question. He ll, all the rest of us got 06's by age 8 for deer hunting and you ask that question.

No offense, but dude, you need to clearly pick it up a notch.

And if you had actually read the thread you'd know why you sound so freakin stupid.

'06 with 150/165's works very well for me.

You are a f'ing RETARD!

I used a .30-06 for 11 years straight w/150-180 gr bullets, mostly 165s, it always killed quite well.

I could see how it would be "too much" for some hunters who can't handle the recoil, but I tend to think "too much" has a lot more to do with handling recoil and being able to shoot a rifle accurately than anything else, some guys buy rifles that kick too hard for them so their peers don't think they're a "puzzy".

I've never had that problem, I've always shot what I like, and the .30-06 was my first love, I got it because I wanted it, then I learned to shoot it because I wanted to. I never thought the recoil was that bad, especially compared to a 12 gauge and slugs, the first "deer rifle" that I owned.

Some guys can and will use a .375 H&H on deer to great effect, that's too much for me though, my dad has been killing mature Wisconsin bucks every year with a .243 since 1976, he's also used a 7 Mag on 7 or 8 Mule Deer, but has since gone back to the .243 for all deer without any problems.

The reason he switched back, lots of surgeries left him weaker than he once was, his tolerance for recoil has gone down, plus he doesn't like dragging that heavy, long-barreled 7 mag around anymore, this hasn't affected his success rate one bit though.

On the other hand, my grandpa who's a towering 5'7", used a .300 H&H on deer and elk until he was 80, he can't hunt at all anymore unfortunately due to arthritis, but he was a hell of a shot with that old rifle.

Hell No!

Too much, no. Are there better rounds for deer, yes.

No it is not to much for deer. Although, I prefer a 350 Rem mag, 338-06AI, or my newest favorite 300 Weatherby. I like them to drop in their tracks when lung shot.

Don't count on that, no matter what you shoot them with.

Prefer my 257 Roberts or 308 for the most part.

Why would you say something ridiculous like that?

I lung-shot three deer this year, one ran 80 yards, One 60, the other 110. I have lung-shot them with .45-70 loads that generate well over 3000 ft-lbs of energy, resulting in 60-70 yard sprints. They do leak REAL good with that rifle (and the .44 mag), though,

I have come to two conclusions over the years.
1: It doesn't matter what you (lung)shoot them with, they can run some distance.....and will.
2: Kinetic energy, as a measure of lethality, is worthless.

CNS or "Runnin' gear" shots generally drop them.

Two of the fastest drops I've seen were done with a .300 WinMag at 40 yards (no surprise), and a .30-30 at twice the distance. The common denominator was they were both shoulder shots. Of course the .30-30 was easier on the meat.

It isn't ridiculous. Lung shot deer can go pretty far, even when shot with a powerhouse rifle.

Projectile and shot placement matter........everything else is for the dogs.

Shot deer with everything from a 223 up to the 300 Win Mag - can't say any one is better than the other . Put the bullet in the cranium, neck or heart / lung and its "Goodnight Dick"!!!!
Gus

You pretty much said what I did, but with a lot less words...

Like Boxer said, "the .30-06 is the worst cartridge based on the .30-06 case". That pretty much settles it.

While the .30-06 is more than enough for deer, that's different from saying it is too much for deer.

Steve.

Best quote I have ever heard!

I liked it so much I robbed it for my sig line.