Hunting in Austria a few years ago, I was offered the opportunity to help with some culling of red deer. They manage their populations very carefully, and needed to take about 30 deer off the property. What I found very odd at first was that I was told that I could shoot any spike bucks I saw or fawns, but no mature does or older bucks.

Growing up in Minnesota, getting a doe permit was a big deal. In many years, seeing a legal buck was a bit of a rarity. Getting a doe permit pretty much guaranteed you a deer. When filling a doe permit, we always tried to shoot the biggest doe we could find to get the most meat. These were often does with fawns.

When I asked them about shooting fawns and not mature does, it was kind of an “ah ha” moment for me. They told me that less than 50% of the fawns survive the winter, whereas mature does are the deer in the herd most likely to survive the winter. Further, shooting a mature doe with fawns made it much less likely that her fawns would survive as well. So by shooting a mature doe, you not only killed any fawns she was carrying, you also made it likely that her current fawns wouldn’t survive. The impact to taking that one mature doe could actually lead to the death of four or five deer. By shooting a fawn, you took one animal, and didn’t negatively impact the survival of any others. Leaving the mature does was the best insurance policy against a hard winter really damaging a herd.

I always thought that shooting fawns was not good deer management, as you often kill young bucks. But their reasoning seemed to make sense to me. Any thoughts on this?

Growing up in Michigan, we were able to acquire antlerless tags (doe permits) so I know where your coming from history wise.

We can take up to 6 antlerless a year during season in NC, and I "typically" will not shoot a doe still tending fawns unless I can take the fawns as well.

I have no reservations shooting fawns. The eat just fine.



Here, I'm less likely to be concerned with the winter kill, and more apt to think coyotes taking the young/sick/injured.

In general, I'll shoot any injured deer I see. They eat ok too.

same concept as clubbing baby seals.
consider it from a prac5ical standpoint.
no mama= no babies unsustainable
no daddy= no babies unsustainable
no baby= make new baby

plus clubbing kept them from making it to the water and being lost.
I always find it strange that as soon as an immature member of a species is introduced into the equation , logic gives way to emotion.
fawn, veal, baby seals...all the same Disney BS propaganda.

yep....Bambi started it all....

Here in the South we have an over population of WT deer.

There are 2 ,TWO, reasons I don't shoot fawns.
A. Button bucks CANT grow up to be legal antlered bucks. Every button buck you kill is an antlered buck that NO ONE will see/shoot.

B. There is not enuff meat worth a deer tag AND not enuff meat worth the effort. "Generally" when you kill a deer (fawn or not) your hunt is over for the day.

I guess you could say that is 3 or 4 reasons ? If you are hunting with me... I will tell you not to shoot fawns.


As per does raising fawns, I will not shoot a doe in Oct Mzl season for that reason. During our Modrn Gun season I'm always looking for bucks first, that gives more time for the does to wean fawns.

CAVEAT >> Where I'm hunting now, private property, my Uncle wants the deer herd reduced so I kill adult does more than where I've hunted before.

Elsewhere the herd management may need different stipulations. It does not bother me for others to shoot fawns ELSEWHERE !

Jerry

Jwall - I think this would mainly apply to northern climates with significant winter kill.

I shoot fawns. I like to eat fawns. I like dragging fawns.

That said, it's been a while since I've done so. 7-8 years probably.

Understand.

That's why I mentioned here in the South.
It doesn't bother me for anyone to shoot what they want when/where legal.
I didn't intend to imply anything else.

Jerry

They are tender as all get out!

Shooting a mature doe past the rut and you're probably killing 3 for 1 if population control is the issue and in many places it is.

In Ohio its a 7 day shotgun/rifle season. Any deer is legal. I shoot the 1st one that gives me a good shot.

re nubbin bucks, you have to only look to make sure it doesn't have nubs... thats awful easy IMHO. At least on our deer it is.

Haven't come close to that mistake in probably 35 years since I was a young teen.

Day over after you shoot a deer? Don't get that at all?

We've shot as many as 10 deer in a morning on a cull, gutted and skinned and hugn all 10 and went again after lunch. Just the wife and I.

Neither of those tasks are so easily accomplished by those of us who hunt public land and/or heavily forested property. When a deer comes trotting through or slips through thick cover, it is pretty hard to determine whether is is a buck fawn or not. When that might be your only chance at a deer that day, you'd best slap leather or lose your opportunity. When said deer is put down a mile or two back in where you either do not have the ability or the legal right to use a quad or UTV, your day is pretty well done unless the temp is cold enough to gut and leave it lay. Lots of different hunting scenarios in different parts of the country. Just a different perspective.

Up here, about half the fawns never see their first birthday. Buck fawns, doe fawns, makes no difference. To maintain a population, shooting buck fawns does almost nothing to the year to year population. To reduce the population, start with does more than three years old.

Around my house, we have way too many. In 2014 I killed three does and a buck fawn and that did nothing to the total population in a half section. In 2015 I killed one yearling, two older does and one buck. After a careful and very accurate census of the neighborhood deer I figured I needed the cars to kill 6-10 and I needed to kill two mature does that have two fawns each and a couple more yearling does in 2016 to get to the point where I had 0 population growth. I now have 9 killed by cars since January. If I do my part, in 2017 I should be able to get by with killing a mature doe and a yearling doe.

It won't take much slacking off in the killing to let them get way out of control again though. No one else hunts here, and there's plenty of deer surrounding this half section. Slack off for a year and I will be right back in need of killing the breeding does four per year or more if possible.

I don't know WHY everyone has to assume a poster hasn't or doesn't hunt public land.

I did a lot of it for years here in TX and yes, you might only get one chance a day or even less at times. I still never killed a nub, simply because I"m not shooting until I know the target. Some years I never shot a doe even with tags just becuase I never got a clear shot.

I also don't know why folks feel that they HAVE to shoot something.

I"m lucky that I have deer at home, and on a lease but if I ever felt that I just HAD to kill something, even if that might be detrimental to the herd, I'd stop hunting.

I do hear you about the no ATV stuff and a mile or more in... BTDT. Its the way I prefer to hunt public, no access on antying but foot. Unfortunately there are not that many areas like that in TX public lands at times.

Last time I did it, I shot a spike that needed to go, before dark, did the gutless into my pack in pieces, and walked the almost 2 miles back to the truck in the dark. Drove back to camp area, had supper, had the deer on ice in the cooler and was up the next morning hunting again...
Sure couldn't do 10 that way but pretty sure the 10 in a morning took more time than gutless quartering and packing out.

I posted this on P 1.

B. There is not enuff meat worth a deer tag AND not enuff meat worth the effort.

"Generally" when you kill a deer (fawn or not) your hunt is over for the day.
-------------------------




I could write a book right here but I'll condense it AMAP.
Jeff, others have responded since I posted and it 'seems' to me you still don't get it all.

Notice I said, Generally in quotes. I have killed 2 deer in 1 day a few times and don't plan to again UNLESS the WX is right to leave them hang outside.

I have been a member of 3 large Deer Camps (leases) at diff times and NONE of those camps have had 'COOLERS' for deer to hang. Around here it's @ 80 $ per deer to have them processed SO.... I ain't taking 10 deer to a processor.

SOOOO.. 1 deer per day is ENUFF and I'm not the only 1 in that boat.

IMO, I'd bet that MANY or MOST here are NOT in your situation > vice versa<< you are not in the same situation as most of US.



HEAR ! HEAR!

Miles is absolutely correct. Killing buck fawn does NOTHING to reduce a deer herd. You MUST kill the 'manufacturer' aka DOES.

I'll repeat and modify...

Every buck fawn you kill is an ANTLERED buck YOU will never see/hunt/shoot. It makes NO sense.


Jerry

Funny thread

In NC, fawn = dead if it's meat I'm after.

I like the insight on Austria.

I teach firearms safety to kids and I ask the kids about the ethics or choice of shooting a fawn when holding an antlerless tag. I get a wide range of responses when I ask that including the parents.

It doesnt help that I am standing by a spotted fawn decoy. ;-)

The austria thing will be a good thing to mention as a different theory.

I hear you bud. Wasn't meaning to imply that you hadn't hunted public. Merely responding to the statements in your post. I don't know why you didn't pick up on my inflection, facial expressions and other nonverbal cues by reading an internet post.

Thoughts on this?

Yes. Clearly the Austrians have a better understanding of game population management than do the Minnesotans.

How many tags do you get?

We can take 6 and I'll put 2 on fawns if I get the opportunity.

And Sean can verify this, but I am picky about cleaning game,

I can whack a fawn mid morning, do a gutless method, and then a little surgery on the straps, and be out again for the afternoon.

I don't 'age' fawn meat.

Everyone who knows me knows that I will shoot fawns first and you'd about have put the gun to my head before I shoot a buck. The buck I shot last fall was constantly around my house. I have strong suspicions he was the big deer who broke down my electric fence and that's why I killed him. There was a huge buck hanging around too, but I never saw his tracks in my garden. He is twice the size of the 6 pointer I killed and twice the size of the doe that was bigger than the sixer. Not much of a rack, but a giant body. I have no need for that much hamburger.

I gave up killing big deer a long, long time ago because they are usually such poor eating. I don't need a big rack for anything, so I let them go by in the hope that someone who wants one gets them. I have killed does that were old and poor table fare. Does are much harder to judge age on without decent glass and a lot of time. I have one in the neighborhood that I'd be willing to bet is at least ten. She produces two fawns very year and has What I think s her daughter hanging with her who is also dropping two a year now. I'd like both of them gone, but won't shoot them for my table.

Of that there is no question!

Maybe to people that get together and compare pecker sizes it makes no sense.

To those of us that have access to lots of deer and don't have anything to prove with antlers, it makes perfect sense to shoot fawns, regardless of sex.

If you really wanted the best deer meat, you would shoot them, too.

Not that hard....just don't lead them as much.

grain per pound, this little behatch took more shots than most:

(sippy cup shown for reference)



an hour later I had a few two gallon bags of meat, and a cup of milk...

Yeah, there was a ridiculous amount of killing that went into that one.

I call those suitcase deer. Just pick it up by the legs and carry it off like a suitcase.

One of our crew guys shot a small fawn and was dropping it off at the meat processors and told them to put the meat in a envelope and mail it to him

;-)

You have to use a processor?

MnDNR has it pretty well figured out. In the places where we have too many deer you can shoot all antlerless. In places where we don't have enough you get bucks only. Around Minneapolis/St Paul we have a zone in which it's legal to shoot an unlimited number of antlerless. Like Austria, but only one buck. If I remember right there was a couple zones down south with 5 deer antlerless and an early season on top of that.

Some people here don't understand it so well though.

Years ago an acquaintance got transferred to TN. He sat down and figured out how many deer he could get in a year if he hunted rifle, archery, ML, etc and took the maximum number possible. It came to 75. I'm sure things have changed in the last 25 years but that was an impressive number.

You could take over 300 in TN

Population control is not an issue in the areas that I hunt and I don't shoot does or fawns....

Most of us choose too. This outfit does a good job and you can't Pay for the wrapping paper and time to do it yourself. Plus our deer our larger than the average southern deer dog.. ;-)

And why not support the small town butcher shop that takes care of you?

Poconojack,



If population control was an issue in your area would you kill does or fawns?

Whatever works for you.

I rather enjoy the entire process.

We learned to hate the process!

My dad used to be a butcher and we had a commercial saw and grinder and I didn't mind cutting our own beef, but the deer was a different story. We had big third generation deer that we cut deer for because they were friends. These guys would pop illegal does and stopped coming to help process deer so we stopped doing it. My dad getting alzheimers really changed how we did things and it was nice to enjoy the time left with dad and not stress about cutting deer. Eventually I'll cut my deer again when I gear up and the cost gets too much.

Ringman,
Probably not. Just a personal decision, but I can't see myself not letting the baldies walk. In the unlikely event that population control ever became an issue, certain that there are other hunters willing to address it....
Ted

Before I started my personal population reduction war on them they came nightly and ate whatever they could get. I could have killed a few with a hammer and just sitting by an open window while the ate the flower beds. When they eat your favored veggies they can motivate a person to get a little pay back.

In the last three years there has been 28 killed on the roads that surround the half section I live in. Those 28 are only the ones I have personally seen. That does not account for the ones that made it off the road right of way or which were picked up quickly by someone. I managed to not wreck a car hitting one here, but obviously 28 deer HBC is kinda pricey for the neighbors.

When you add in the 8 deer I have killed reducing the population during deer season, 36 deer killed off half a section is a lot of problem. Like I said, only one had horns and he got it because I was pretty certain he was the one who broke down the electric fence to get at my garden.

Did you hear about the baby seal who went into a bar? The bartenders asks "What will you have?"
Baby seal replies "Anything but a Canadian Club".

Memorial Day weekend two more were hit by cars around this half section. That makes 11 now since the beginning of the year. Add the four I killed last fall and that's fifteen, a lotta damn deer for half a section of land. I still haven't seen the two big does with their four fawns. Those deer will be ten deer this fall and eighteen next year If I do nothing and the cars don't get 'em. To the best of my knowledge, there are at least an additional 3 big adult does likely to twin this spring and a couple of yearlings likely to produce single fawns. Add to them an equal number of bucks and it's obvious that this half section is still grossly overpopulated.

Doing nothing is not really an option. Killing bucks is not an option, even if I could bait them onto a single acre with a massive corn pile, use a silencer, use an accurate CF rifle and hired some help to process them I couldn't kill all the bucks and stop the reproduction. Even stopping the reproduction completely cold would still leave an overpopulation. I am the only person hunting then in this half section. I think it's very probable I am the only person hunting them within a half mile in any direction of the boundaries.

If I want a garden and flower beds my only option is killing all the big does I can and some of the yearling does too. I can really only reliably kill and process four deer. This is a neighborhood of five or so acre sites, so gun hunting is almost out of the question, every home within 500 feet must give permission for you to shoot. I am lucky to have a wife who'll sit with me while I whack Bambi and a neighbor who is tired of building secure exclosures every time he wants to plant anything who'll do the same.

Down in the metro deer zone where unlimited antlerless tags are available, most of the LGUs are PAYING people to kill and haul away deer. The only figure I have heard is $300/ deer. Seems like a lot of money/deer to me, but I have never tried to verify the number.

Even with something like 500,000 deer hunters in this state, not killing does is just not an option to control deer numbers. It takes severe winters, wolves, disease, cars and hunters all working together. Oddly, MNDNR is being forced to produce a comprehensive plan to manage deer mainly by aperioditic low population levels in specific areas by hunters. When a high success percentage is 40% and 20% is a lot more common, managing deer for them is likely to be neither successful nor reliable at any level because adverse reports of population do not move hunters to where the deer are readily available. They just don't hunt for a year or two or three.

Here's an interesting strategy for you. Does run fawns off and they travel a good distance before finding new home, especially buck fawns.
I have a friend that's a biologist, he carefully examines every doe with fawns he sees, if one or the best is both are buttons, BOOM down goes momma....thus his buck doe ratio is very in check compared to most properties in the area. Like I said he's a biologist and studies deer for a living, pretty smart thinker too

Winter kill is not an issue where I hunt. A mature doe is less likely to lose her fawns to yotes though.

In AZ we get one, if you get drawn. Depends on where you get drawn, could be any antlered deer, any antlered white tail or any antlered mule deer. Or down south any antlered Couse deer.

No fawns for me...no matter what. powdr