if you're going by score i'd say 100 is a nice buck. i let my boys do the shooting usually but if they don't get anything, i shoot anything that is legal the last few days to have some meat for the freezer. i never really got hung up on the horns. i like spikes, scrubs and nice ones all the same. every rack gets a place on the camp wall. i have a lot of spikes on the wall from when they were legal.
Now I remember why I hunt the midwest, Pa has gone to total crap.
Sure has... A better buck to doe ratio, and bigger deer. Who would want that? I guess it was better back when we were shooting spikes and forkies after glassing 20 does...
We often hunt within Tuscarora State Forest for white tails. Any legal buck is a good kill for me. Young bucks and does are genuine diner plate trophies!
Not too bright either and not much of a challenge for a real hunter. They even let themselves get hit by cars. Why he was within a short walk from a GL and the smart hunters know there are most certainly no Deer there worth spending time on.
Midwest is where it's at. Go West young man, go West. Please do, please. If only to save our low life Bucks for us renegade, lawless, couch sitting Pa hunters.
Now I remember why I hunt the midwest, Pa has gone to total crap.
Sure has... A better buck to doe ratio, and bigger deer. Who would want that? I guess it was better back when we were shooting spikes and forkies after glassing 20 does...
Pa blows 1)Too many hunters 2)Too long of seasons 3)No Sunday hunting 4)Lyme disease thicker than Mexicans in Arizona
If you think Pa is the Meca of whitetail hunting, you're a babe in the woods friend. The PGC is all about money, not conservation or management.
For most of my hunting career we had the farm in PA. The hunting was amazing. In 2010 the farm got sold. Upon switching to public lands I found there were plenty of bucks to keep me interested. I also found there were plenty of hunters to mess me up. I'm not giving up but I do need to adopt a different approach.
Now I remember why I hunt the midwest, Pa has gone to total crap.
Sure has... A better buck to doe ratio, and bigger deer. Who would want that? I guess it was better back when we were shooting spikes and forkies after glassing 20 does...
Shhhhhh! You keep this up and the dumpfuques might start paying attention......
Now I remember why I hunt the midwest, Pa has gone to total crap.
Sure has... A better buck to doe ratio, and bigger deer. Who would want that? I guess it was better back when we were shooting spikes and forkies after glassing 20 does...
Pa blows 1)Too many hunters 2)Too long of seasons 3)No Sunday hunting 4)Lyme disease thicker than Mexicans in Arizona
If you think Pa is the Meca of whitetail hunting, you're a babe in the woods friend. The PGC is all about money, not conservation or management.
Now I remember why I hunt the midwest, Pa has gone to total crap.
Sure has... A better buck to doe ratio, and bigger deer. Who would want that? I guess it was better back when we were shooting spikes and forkies after glassing 20 does...
Pa blows 1)Too many hunters 2)Too long of seasons 3)No Sunday hunting 4)Lyme disease thicker than Mexicans in Arizona
If you think Pa is the Meca of whitetail hunting, you're a babe in the woods friend. The PGC is all about money, not conservation or management.
Not only a dumbazz but a cheap foch too.
Insults don't pass for intelligent debate, sorry schmuck.
Now I remember why I hunt the midwest, Pa has gone to total crap.
Sure has... A better buck to doe ratio, and bigger deer. Who would want that? I guess it was better back when we were shooting spikes and forkies after glassing 20 does...
Pa blows 1)Too many hunters 2)Too long of seasons 3)No Sunday hunting 4)Lyme disease thicker than Mexicans in Arizona
If you think Pa is the Meca of whitetail hunting, you're a babe in the woods friend. The PGC is all about money, not conservation or management.
Not only a dumbazz but a cheap foch too.
Insults don't pass for intelligent debate, sorry schmuck.
that would require that I had someone intelligent to debate with schmuck. Apparently I didn't dumb it down enough for you.
Now I remember why I hunt the midwest, Pa has gone to total crap.
Sure has... A better buck to doe ratio, and bigger deer. Who would want that? I guess it was better back when we were shooting spikes and forkies after glassing 20 does...
Pa blows 1)Too many hunters 2)Too long of seasons 3)No Sunday hunting 4)Lyme disease thicker than Mexicans in Arizona
If you think Pa is the Meca of whitetail hunting, you're a babe in the woods friend. The PGC is all about money, not conservation or management.
LOL
I grew up there but work took me out west, used to go back every year for first week of buck but the hunting is not what it was when I was a boy in the mid 1960's.
A few years ago I went back for bear season in Potter county once the best deer hunting in the state. After 3 days of hunting our group had a pair of bears but we saw zero deer.
Have not gone back to hunt since, now days I actually see more deer in CA driving over the mountain to Malibu then my last few trips home
Now I remember why I hunt the midwest, Pa has gone to total crap.
Sure has... A better buck to doe ratio, and bigger deer. Who would want that? I guess it was better back when we were shooting spikes and forkies after glassing 20 does...
Pa blows 1)Too many hunters 2)Too long of seasons 3)No Sunday hunting 4)Lyme disease thicker than Mexicans in Arizona
If you think Pa is the Meca of whitetail hunting, you're a babe in the woods friend. The PGC is all about money, not conservation or management.
I agree with 3 and 4. Never said it was a Mecca. It is however better than it has ever been and improving.
Years ago, had the target rash from a tick bite and the Doc said at that time the tests were not all that accurate for Lyme. So went on Doxycycline. Since then there have been multiple flair ups of joint pain which responded to additional Doxy treatments.
The last couple have kinda got on my nerves more than usual. So will be getting some tests done to try and perhaps pinpoint more accurately what is going on. Lyme or something else.
In the last 10 years or so have had at least 10 ticks get attached every year. Maybe more. They estimate that at least 50% of ticks currently can transmit. There has to be a blood exchange for transmission to occur, but certainly, some of the attachments have done so. For me not to have at minimum a mild form of Lyme would be unlikely.
You can sit down during a hunt and in short order literally brush off 40 plus, and you don't get them all. Same with the Dogs, but since I've started using Seresto collars on them none have attached to them.
Hunting clothes come off as soon as you get inside and are left in the garage. Everything gets sprayed after every couple days hunting. You still often find them crawling on you or wake up with one digging in. PITA.
You may find this helpful prior to your blood work, a guy posted this up on another forum when I mentioned my current bout with the disease...he seemed to know his [bleep] for sure....good luck with your testing
Lyme is often becomes chronic due to not being treated quickly enough but there's more to it than that...often times when you take the Doxycycline (antibiotics to kill Lyme) they only kill the Lyme spirochete thats present in the blood stream but doesn't touch the spirochetes that have moved into other areas of the body nor does it do anything whatsoever to Lyme biofilm which acts like a shield for the spirochetes to hid inside of during treatment. Chronic Lyme patients are often patients who were positive on the Lyme test, underwent treatment, tested negative after treatment but since our western blot test is so inaccurate you have a 70% chance that you still have Lyme according to some new studies. Then 10 years down the road you start feeling like crap and falling apart because you've had Lyme the whole time...What's more than that is scientists are linking Multiple Sclerosis, Alzheimer's, Lupus, and a host of other diseases directly to chronic Lyme disease in new studies. Lyme is a serious deal and we have very little understanding of the disease itself or how to treat it....
Please request an Igenex test once you finish your Doxy it's the most accurate way to test for Lyme disease and your doctor probably won't know about it so do some research yourself before you go in for a follow up...the western blot test they will use is highly inaccurate...good luck
Pretty much what the Doc and I have discussed. He also mentioned the Igenex test. He is one of the sharpest internal medicine guys here. I have more than a little faith in him.
Another acquaintance had it and it went to his spinal cord. Got into the nerve trunk and his leg went limp, face palsy, etc. He was a mess. On IV antibiotics for over a year and this past summer, everything finally started to come back to normal.
Nothing to fool with or not take basic precautions against.
I have a good friend that's 35 yrs old, healthy & normal...ended up with Chronic Lyme and now is in a wheel chair totally disabled...sits and drools on himself like a 90 yr old guy in an old folks home. He's married with 2 small children, a very sad situation...he asked me to "take him out of his misery", I left the house with tears in my eyes. His wife gave me all his weapons to safely hold, till this battle has run it's course.
Lyme is nothing to fool around with, people need to realize just how dangerous and damaging it really is to the body and quality of life.
Addition: have an attached tick off within 24 hours and the chance of being infected is very small. At least that is current medical thought. Not sure if I'm in complete agreement however. Something to consider and with normal precautions ticks should not curtail ones time outdoors.
I have been treating my woods cloths with permethrin for the past 5 years and it makes a big difference in tick attachments. Spray it on and let it dry on the cloths once a season. It repels and also kills any ticks that would like to crawl on me. Gives me the satisfaction of knowing that I may be helping to reduce the tick population in a small way as well. I have not found any ticks on me since I started to use it.
I have been treating my woods cloths with permethrin for the past 5 years and it makes a big difference in tick attachments. Spray it on and let it dry on the cloths once a season. It repels and also kills any ticks that would like to crawl on me. Gives me the satisfaction of knowing that I may be helping to reduce the tick population in a small way as well. I have not found any ticks on me since I started to use it.
Yep very good stuff, it's the best protection available today that I know of.
Rifle season Dec 2nd- Jan 28...so 2 months, and some of the buck have dropped antlers by then...most states are 1-2 weeks for gun.
Wonder why buck have a hard time surviving to maturity ? Average buck killed in Pa. is 1 1/2yrs old, his first set of real horns.
I'd love to find the part of PA that has a 2 month rifle season. It's always been a 2 week rifle season for everything but the SRA's. And that's probably under 10% of the state.
Would take the entire State. They are not only in the wooded areas but also people's yards. Deer walked thru mine last summer and the top of her back, from neck to hips was dark with swollen ticks. First time I had ever seen it that bad.
If the ticks are not infected they would be nothing but an inconvenience. They pick up the disease from mice, chipmunks and perhaps a couple other small mammals. Deer are immune but carry them around and drop them off in their travels. One Deer can drop of thousands of ticks in the course of a season of wandering.
An aside to Smoke: You think Deer perhaps also wonder? You know acorn, apple, corn, yard, move, bed, water? Hmmmm
So, burn off the land, the Deer run off to unburned land and take the infected ticks with them and the cycle goes on. Deer return to burned land, take the ticks with them and you are back to where you started.
Although I would like to see more than a little controlled burning in Pa. About the best all around habitat improvement one can do.
Pa didn't have a tick problem until we had an extended acid rain problem which has altered the ph of our soil. Same as the entire NE coast where ticks have become a problem.
Perhaps for some reason, they thrive in acidic soil and we need to treat the soil to bring it back to the more neutral Ph it was previously.
I have been actively looking at land in western PA for a little while now. Last summer I took my daughter to a piece of land that touched ANF and she got Lyme's, I didn't. We were in the woods for maybe an hour. She started feeling bad so we both got tested when she showed a ring rash. No bullseye in the middle.
How you are talking about this infection, it makes me want to look more in WV or KY rather than PA. I love the flintlock season and that is one of the major reasons I am so strongly looking at PA, but this sounds a bit nuts. I want to use wherever we buy year round, not only as a deer camp.
I have three kids and don't want this to be an annual fight.
You go into Pa wood and you are fighting Lyme. Take all the precautions and take your chances. Presently that's how it works.
One of the joys of back in the day was taking a nap in the woods on a nice day fall hunt day or during a spring Turkey hunt. Do it today and they will carry you off.
It would appear that status quo ain't fixing anything.
It may take a politician or one of their family members to come down with a devastating case and then the status quo may change. Peons don't count. It costs too much money to worry about the peons out hunting, hiking, camping, birding, gardening and such.
I hunt in Pennsylvania on public land. I enjoy it quite a bit and I get a buck most years. I haven't shot any monsters but have seen some pretty good deer in recent years.
I agree with some of the posters who are unhappy with the Game Commission, though. Wild pheasant and quail are gone and grouse are in serious decline.
I have hunted in Delaware and Maryland and I learned to appreciate PA. If I were young again, I would move out west - maybe I still will once my kids are grown.
Tell me why you think the GC is responsible for the decline of Pheasants and Grouse? Studies seem to be indicating that Grouse numbers have declined due to West Nile Virus. If so, then what could the GC have done to prevent a mosquito born disease from infecting Grouse? Remember it would cost money if they could have.
Ticks and Lyme are being discussed and since Ticks live in the woods and transmit off Deer, is the GC responsible for that also?
You don't see anywhere near the numbers of songbirds that once were here. Somethings has been in the wind for years. Then the States legislature mandates the GC must invest in Hawks, Owls, Eagles. Animals that do nothing to increase game birds that we have to buy a license to hunt. That mandated investment costs what? And it comes out of the GC fixed budget. The State doesn't kick in any extra even tho they forced it on the GC. So now we have Game Wardens checking on Eagle nests, giving Eagle, Hawk and Owl seminars to the public schools. The GC paying additional biologists to study them and implement plans to increase their numbers.
But heaven forbids the license buying public wants to grant the GC an increase in license fees. The last one was what, 12-15 years ago? Fixing today's broken costs money and biologists, studies, implementation, failures and successes require it. Nor will it get done in 1990's dollars.
The GC is far from perfect, but our license buying members are not much to brag on either.
The hunters beetch to the legislature their unhappiness and don't think the GC deserves a fee increase. The legislature, being the representatives of the people they propose to be, go along. Eventually, the GC may go broke and who do you think will take over control of 1.5million plus acres of Game Lands.
Why it would be the State, and believe me nothing would make them happier. Timber, future gas royalties. Wake up guys. You are willing to sell your kids future hunting rights, but hey today, let it be known you proudly stood tall and said the GC sucks.
The game commission stood by and did nothing to help prevent the wild quail and pheasant from being extirpated from PA. They have done very little for habitat improvement on state land for grouse. They cut far too little for grouse to thrive. Some grouse die from WNV but not all. We don't have enough early successional habitat on PA public land and the Game Commission is part of the problem. They are more interested in playing cop than helping wildlife.
As far as a license increase, I have never opposed it nor has anyone that I know. I have no idea what they need to get an increase approved but it is not my job to lobby for it.
I think the deer situation is improved over the last 10 years (at least where I hunt) and they have been successful with the bear numbers. Beyond that, I can't tell you anything that they have done the has really helped game populations.
Wild Quail never suffered from overpopulation in Pa. In fact, their numbers have also crashed drastically in the old traditional Southern Quail States. The only places that wild Quail thrive even there is the private plantations that spend millions yearly in giving them what they need and they spent millions learning how. Look up the Albany Quail Project and Tall Timbers to see what it took.
They are private, as in you have to be invited to hunt there and if open to the public the Quail wouldn't be able to take the pressure. While those States know what it takes to make Wild Quail, why don't they? The reason is they don't control enough land to allow everyone to hunt it.
Spending money on Wild Quail in Pa would be the same. You could look at them, but not hunt them.
Grouse? I've maybe hunted Pa Grouse longer than you have been alive. However, Game lands were for the larger part not where we would have 20-40flushes per day. It was mostly on private land open to hunting. Or State and National Forest lands.
Where do want the GC to cut? Now they can only do so on the 1.5million acres they own. All of which are not continuous good Grouse cover along with they have those who like to hunt other game they have to satisfy.
The ANF has been getting around 5000 acres cut per year up until recently when the State came up against a court order to stop. They may have started up again, but not sure. Anyway, there is so much clearcutting that has gone up there it is impressive. Combine it with the timber cutting on land companies own and it becomes even more so. There are Grouse there, but again there isn't an overpopulation problem. Perfect mosaic wood covers. Why not? The GC couldn't come close even if they wanted to.
Not your job to lobby for them having what they need to move into the future, do what you want them to do? Wake up, it is politics and it is a nasty game. The Antis don't care about your hunting, the birders mostly could care less, same with the hikers, leaf peepers, etc. And neither do most of the politicians when it isn't convenient for them to do so. They will sell you down the road on Friday and go to Church on Sunday with a clear conscious. It is your job at a minimum to pay attention to who is pulling the strings that affect our hunting future. Unless you just DGAS other than to beetch. The politicians control a license increase and they say they will not ok it because of the beetching they hear from the hunters. I'm willing to bet they would love to see the GC go belly up and get their hands on the 1.5million acres exclusively paid for by hunters. Natural gas IS going to be big. The infrastructure isn't being laid all across the State for the fun of it.
Most people live a life of being content to read yesterday's news and wonder what happened.
Addition: Wild Pheasants were mainly on public lands. Farms and woodlots over a good portion of the State. Opening Day was big with gangs of hunters going down corn fields and fallow fields. Hunters on the road edges, pass shooting Birds the hunters in the fields sent by. Today? The farmers wouldn't allow it and if they did you would pay for the privilege. If the farmers are going to benefit from Pheasants then let them foot the bill. The 60's died years ago and they are not coming back.
I went for a walk at Middle Creek Wildlife refuge today in Lancaster county. The Snow Geese are in by the 100's of thousands. I got several ticks on me but I didn't bother with them because I was sprayed down with Sawyers permethrin and they just fell off.
You go into Pa wood and you are fighting Lyme. Take all the precautions and take your chances. Presently that's how it works.
One of the joys of back in the day was taking a nap in the woods on a nice day fall hunt day or during a spring Turkey hunt. Do it today and they will carry you off.
Ticks must not like me, I don't think I had any on me this past year. This would be in both Somerset and Clearfield counties so they're definitely out there, just not on me. Not that I'm complaining.
I think the last license fee increase was in 1999.
The Game Commission has tried several things with pheasants including Sichuan pheasants that were supposed to need less/different cover than ringnecks. They also have several Wild Pheasant Recovery Areas in the state, large blocks (1000's of acres) of suitable habitat and limited or no pheasant hunting. I'm not sure of the total game plan on them but some of it is working, I see/hear pheasants here in Somerset year round.
The biggest factor in the pheasant decline was the loss/clearing of brush rows and ditches in small farm fields to make them into bigger fields. Plus better weed control in crop fields. In other words, habitat loss on private land.
Controlled burns are becoming more common. Until a few years ago, whoever started a fire (even for a controlled burn) was liable if it got out of control. Nobody wanted that risk so nobody burned. The law was changed but it takes time to get folks trained in burn planning and implementation. Plus, from what I've seen, most burns require pretty specific atmospheric conditions (wind, humidity etc.)
Went to college up in New Wilmington. The Amish farms then where fairly thick with wild Pheasants and the adjacent edge covers had them. The Amish up there haven't changed their farming practices. Last time I was up there the edge covers looked the same or at least more than adequate. Have hunting friends-Bird Dog people-who live close by and according to them some of the Mercer Co swamps hold some remaining wild Pheasants. Other than that it is put and take.
Same with Doves. Some fields would have 2-300 Doves trying to get in and feed. You can find them today, but usually not close to those numbers.
IMO, something other than habitat is and has been going on.
Predation on small game of all varieties is worse than ever.
Fisher Bobcats coyote Fox Eagles Hawks..
All have incresed in population while small game continues to decline.
The grouse, pheasant,turkey squirrel and rabbit dont stand a chance
Nowhere near as many people trap anymore. Back in the old days, people used to shoot hawks, too. Small game numbers were a lot higher. Ground nesting birds really take a hit from skunks, coons, possums, etc.
Know a guy killing 100 plus Rabbits a year with Beagles. Guy with a Squirrel Dog that pounds them.
Small game hunters in Pa are practically non-existent. Most of them hit the GL for stocked Pheasants. It's all Turkey and Deer for the most part.
It's the Birds that are crashing.
Without trapping of the foxes, coyotes on the upswing and the increased numbers of raptors, the white-footed mouse and chipmunks that carry Lyme should be hurting. Doesn't seem to be the case.
Less fence row cover, MORE birds of prey (stoppage of DDT), more coyotes and more deer means less small game populations.
When fur prices hit the [bleep] years back, the predators have rebounded with no apex other than man/cars...they've been wiping out the small game like white on paper.
Where do want the GC to cut? Now they can only do so on the 1.5million acres they own.
1.5 million acres of land could hold a lot of grouse. They need to do a better job with it.
Not your job to lobby for them having what they need to move into the future, do what you want them to do?
I want them to do their job and provide a convincing plea to the State Legislature for why the hunting license cost should be increased. Government agencies work with the State all the time to work out budget issues. I have better things to do than to do their work for them.
The PGC has needed a license increase for years. It's getting ridiculous that the Legislature is doing this to them. Now it's costing us part of our Pheasant program which pisses me off. I'd gladly pay more for a license. A basic resident license is just $20. In NC I paid $36 for that privilege.
Where do want the GC to cut? Now they can only do so on the 1.5million acres they own.
1.5 million acres of land could hold a lot of grouse. They need to do a better job with it.
Not your job to lobby for them having what they need to move into the future, do what you want them to do?
I want them to do their job and provide a convincing plea to the State Legislature for why the hunting license cost should be increased. Government agencies work with the State all the time to work out budget issues. I have better things to do than to do their work for them.
You obviously don't get it or don't know what is going on. The legislature has been denying a license increase because hunters complain to them they are dissatisfied with the GC. What is their biggest complaint? Well, it is they are not seeing enough Deer. Forget the fact we are shooting bigger horned Bucks. Bigger on average than anytime since I've been Deer hunting. They are also starting to cut back on Doe licenses in areas where too many were killed. But, who kept buying the licenses and doing the killing? Funny how that worked.
At least twice already you have failed to acknowledge the politics re the Gamelands and natural gas. You think it isn't coming, then tell me why those big right of ways are being bought and piped-up all over the State? Natural gas comes on strong and those GL would be a cash cow to the politicians to dip into. The only problem they have is those rights are presently owned by the GC. Same as the timber rights they use exclusively for GC objectives. And this time it's not funny that you don't get how that works.
Looks like we can't count on you to be a voice for hunting in Pa. That's ok, there are more than a few of you with the same shortsightedness that doesn't allow them to see past today. Tomorrow to you is the same as the next century.
Then again we may get it done and then you can suck on the fruits.
You want a convincing plea to the legislature? When the politicians see free cash, it takes dead babies to have them keep their hands off them. Dead hunters? Dig in boys and get what you can before they stink too bad. Get real with your convincing plea.
Know a guy killing 100 plus Rabbits a year with Beagles. Guy with a Squirrel Dog that pounds them.
Small game hunters in Pa are practically non-existent. Most of them hit the GL for stocked Pheasants. It's all Turkey and Deer for the most part.
It's the Birds that are crashing.
Without trapping of the foxes, coyotes on the upswing and the increased numbers of raptors, the white-footed mouse and chipmunks that carry Lyme should be hurting. Doesn't seem to be the case.
Around here it seems like the beaver population is exploding. Five years ago I can think of one or two dams locally. But I can think of 8-9 new ones within 5 miles or so of the farm.
Always interesting to see what they can do. Had them move into a stream outside of Dayton. Watched them expand the operation for a couple years then the place became posted.
Before the posting, I was winter Grouse hunting on what I thought was the stream edge, which was frozen, but it looked different. Barer than it should have been. I was thinking about it when the ice broke and I went in. Threw the gun across to the edge and broke ice till I could stand. The dam had widened since I was there previously.
About a half mile hike to the car in middle 22F. Drove home in my underwear. Didn't break any MV laws either.
Still getting pics of bucks carrying headgear. Havent found a shed in 13hours of looking this year. Hopefully the rest of these bucks drop soon and we can find a few.
Couple of points: Last year the Senate overwhelmingly passed a Bill to allow the PGC to set its own fees but some Representative in the House wouldn't allow the Bill to move out of committee for a vote, so it died. Right now Oil and Natural gas prices are low so companies aren't moving the product. They have shut down wells until prices come up. So the PGC isn't getting royalties from shut down wells. Timber prices are also low so there again the PGC isn't getting enough for the timber. In the past two years the Governor has cut the number of PGC employees by nearly 80. He took snapshots of each agencies complement and froze it where it was at that day. As a result, positions that were vacant due to retirements aren't getting filled. The Middle Creek crew where I work is now short 2 full-time positions on Food & Cover. Every crew in the Southeast Region is short at least 1 worker. The Environmental Educator that worked with thousands of school kids each year at the Visitor Center has left due to the threats of closing the Visitor Center and he has been replaced by a part-time person. In regards to pheasants, our baseline for stocking pheasants on cooperative properties is 50 acres of cover not within a Safety Zone. This is not to include crops which could be harvested. At least in Lancaster county, no farms meet that requirement. The changes in farming practices has been detrimental to pheasants. Early cutting of hay kills hens on nests and use of Roundup Ready products and farming from property line to property line have eliminated the cover necessary for pheasants to survive.
Went to college up in New Wilmington. The Amish farms then where fairly thick with wild Pheasants and the adjacent edge covers had them. The Amish up there haven't changed their farming practices. Last time I was up there the edge covers looked the same or at least more than adequate. Have hunting friends-Bird Dog people-who live close by and according to them some of the Mercer Co swamps hold some remaining wild Pheasants. Other than that it is put and take.
Same with Doves. Some fields would have 2-300 Doves trying to get in and feed. You can find them today, but usually not close to those numbers.
IMO, something other than habitat is and has been going on.
You probably haven't noticed but farming practices have changed. If you compare the 60's and 70's to now, there is a lot of change. Whit's post above mentions cleaner and bigger fields. I would add more corn/soybean rotations, less with hay and small grains. More corn silage (takes the whole stalk) being cut. The remaining 6 inch stalk doesn't provide much cover and NO food.
Larger faster machines don't allow wildlife to get out of the way. A New Holland model 477 haybine from the 70's cut a swath of hay 7 foot wide and you were lucky to run at 4 mph. Now, there are monsters that cut 30 feet at 10 mph. Combines instead of corn pickers mean less grain left in the fields.
Just a whole host of things, maybe it's not exactly habitat but it's made for less quality and quantity of habitat IMO.
It's certainly not the only factor but I think it's a big one. Jam the remaining small game into a smaller, less suitable area and it gets easier to for the predators.
As mentioned those are Amish farms and they are still using horses and walking behind the plow. Corn is still big and there and all kinds of edges. Corn stalks piled up in teepees like before. No haybines, etc. Horse and manpower. Or Kidspower when you see a youngster wrestling behind a two-team. Can't ever remember seeing an overweight Amish kid visiting at the hospital. Most of the farms up that way are Amish and they all look the same.
Just an observation, in that the apparent same kind of farming held Birds back then.
They use those machines out in Kansas and the Dakotas and they have Birds. One advantage they do have is the fields are so big the predators have to perch way back on the road edges and perhaps don't have as easy access to Birds. Their winters are also harder on Birds than ours. They do have more CRP land to nest and hide in, so that is definitely a factor. Then there is definitely a lot of "salting" that goes on with the commercial operations.
Even places around here that are managed for Wild Birds can't get them to take. Something else is also going on. However, it takes Wild Birds to throw wild. I doubt you can get it done with pen raised and released Birds.
The Pheasant States have enough birds they can still flourish in spite of predators, weather, etc. They outproduce the losses. Here our Birds may have crashed to numbers so low they can't outproduce the predators and weather.
The PGC has needed a license increase for years. It's getting ridiculous that the Legislature is doing this to them. Now it's costing us part of our Pheasant program which pisses me off. I'd gladly pay more for a license. A basic resident license is just $20. In NC I paid $36 for that privilege.
As an out of stater who hunts western states too I was blown away by the cost of the license... bear tag, fall & spring turkey tags, deer tag and maybe more for $102-ish?
Insane. I think for all that I'd pay close to $100 in Mi as a resident!
Seriously raise your prices AT LEAST on non-residents!
I think Pa has the reciprocating license fee system, so odds are good that MI is good to Pa hunters also.
I have no problem with them raising fees, hopefully it's spent on protecting our public lands and youth hunting education. There are no simple answers to all the complicated problems, the debates will go on for years...just like they have in the past.
But as sportsman we have to stick together to protect our rights and hunting heritage, do nothing and it will be a thing of the past. Be proactive and support your local shooting/sportsman club, take a kid hunting, but do something.
Times have changed in Pa. I can't remember the politician's name, but maybe 40+ years ago he came out for gun control. Pa hunters came out strong all across the State and voiced their opposition. Republicans, democrats, union members, it didn't matter their other differences, they were in unison as hunters and shooters. He was defeated in the next election cycle.
Even further back when the GC first started Doe Seasons, the majority were against it. They were wrong on the management of Deer, but history tells of them publically burning the Doe tags they bought. They bought them so others couldn't get them and then burned them. They may have been wrong, but you can't fault their commitment.
Today? I wouldn't count on the same outcome. The majority will go down and then wonder how did that happen. Or not even care all that much that it did. Why should they get involved? Let someone else do it.
It's in our best interest that the PGC gets a license increase. The longer this goes on the more programs they'll cut and the less habitat improvement projects they will do.
As mentioned those are Amish farms and they are still using horses and walking behind the plow. Corn is still big and there and all kinds of edges. Corn stalks piled up in teepees like before. No haybines, etc. Horse and manpower. Or Kidspower when you see a youngster wrestling behind a two-team. Can't ever remember seeing an overweight Amish kid visiting at the hospital. Most of the farms up that way are Amish and they all look the same.
Just an observation, in that the apparent same kind of farming held Birds back then.
They use those machines out in Kansas and the Dakotas and they have Birds. One advantage they do have is the fields are so big the predators have to perch way back on the road edges and perhaps don't have as easy access to Birds. Their winters are also harder on Birds than ours. They do have more CRP land to nest and hide in, so that is definitely a factor. Then there is definitely a lot of "salting" that goes on with the commercial operations.
Even places around here that are managed for Wild Birds can't get them to take. Something else is also going on. However, it takes Wild Birds to throw wild. I doubt you can get it done with pen raised and released Birds.
The Pheasant States have enough birds they can still flourish in spite of predators, weather, etc. They outproduce the losses. Here our Birds may have crashed to numbers so low they can't outproduce the predators and weather.
Those Amish farms may not have changed but what about the English farms around them? 50-100 acres of an Amish farm surrounded by English farms doesn't cut it for habitat. Even if it's a large community, I doubt it makes a large enough habitat block. I think I read that management blocks need to be 20,000 acres to have impact and establish wild pheasants. All 20K doesn't have to be suitable habitat but the block needs to be that big.
Most of my experience with the Amish is in Lancaster and Chester counties. That used to be the heart of Pa. pheasant country. They pull the equipment with horses but have engine carts to provide PTO power to run the haybines, round balers and other equipment. Down there, they take the first cutting of hay by about May 15th and harvest every 30 days. That makes nesting difficult if not impossible.
I agree that there are other factors at play, I just think statewide, the decline of habitat causes those other factors to have increased effect.
The Conservation Reserve Program (CRP) created a LOT of suitable habitat for birds out west. It took marginal and highly erodible farmland out of production and planted it into permanent cover. In other words, the amount of 'good' habitat increased and so did the birds. A few years ago, corn hit $8 bu (it's about 3.50-4.00 now) and everybody planted everything they could to corn. Including much of that CRP ground. I think you'll find that bird numbers have come down also.
Times have changed in Pa. I can't remember the politician's name, but maybe 40+ years ago he came out for gun control. Pa hunters came out strong all across the State and voiced their opposition. Republicans, democrats, union members, it didn't matter their other differences, they were in unison as hunters and shooters. He was defeated in the next election cycle.
Even further back when the GC first started Doe Seasons, the majority were against it. They were wrong on the management of Deer, but history tells of them publically burning the Doe tags they bought. They bought them so others couldn't get them and then burned them. They may have been wrong, but you can't fault their commitment.
Today? I wouldn't count on the same outcome. The majority will go down and then wonder how did that happen. Or not even care all that much that it did. Why should they get involved? Let someone else do it.
I agree, few are willing to commit to their beliefs and take the responsibility for their actions. If they wait long enough someone else will do the dirty work, they just enjoy the ride for free...and if the cards don't fall their way, then they biitch the loudest.
Men used to have balls, integrity used to have value, a man's word and hand shake were all you needed...I'd venture to say influx of video games, destruction of family values, and that little purple bastage Barney are to blame for it all
Well don't expect the Amish to start catering to wild animal populations. Game animals are about as common on Amish farms as wildlife is on the Crow reservation in Montana. I like the Amish but when they move in the wildlife gets shot off.
If you've ever traveled I-80 down near the Ohio border there's a decent swamp that straddles the freeway down there. I think it's around old exit 3. We went and talked to the Amish farmer that owned the property on the north side of 80, and he gave us permission to hunt. We got ducks, geese, rabbits, and pheasant, and saw several deer too, as well as turkeys. Kinda blows the theory that the Amish shoot everything off.......
If you've ever traveled I-80 down near the Ohio border there's a decent swamp that straddles the freeway down there. I think it's around old exit 3. We went and talked to the Amish farmer that owned the property on the north side of 80, and he gave us permission to hunt. We got ducks, geese, rabbits, and pheasant, and saw several deer too, as well as turkeys. Kinda blows the theory that the Amish shoot everything off.......
When the family was big we hunted Deer in a group like the Amish. I doubt on average they did or were better at it. Some of us still hunt the same ground and the Deer are still there.
Just a quick question, Moose, did you move back to Pa.????
Yes. My family was pitching a fit because I need to be closer to home because of my health issues and because my Grandma has leukemia and my Grandpa has Parkinsons. And I was tired of listening to my wife complain about never seeing the Grandkids so I finally just said fugg it. Dumb decision on my part but eventually you get fugging tired of everybody whining.
In the dealings I have had with Amish it seems they don't treat the animals with respect. The Amish that live on the property next to where I hunt just shoot a herd of deer without picking one. I have also seen the same family shoot at deer and not follow up and check for hair and blood. The same family also crosses our property to sneak onto the neighbors posted property. They treat our property like they own it. If I could keep them off I would but my wife's uncle manages the property and he doesn't have a spine and won't tell them to stay off.
The amish country in Lancaster and Lebanon county is bare from farm house to farm house. If a tree grows, they cut it down because it will shade the corn.
The amish country in Lancaster and Lebanon county is bare from farm house to farm house. If a tree grows, they cut it down because it will shade the corn.
Your spot on about the Amish. But now the Amish lovers will be along shortly to bitch and whine at us.
The amish country in Lancaster and Lebanon county is bare from farm house to farm house. If a tree grows, they cut it down because it will shade the corn.
It's not just the Amish or Mennonite farmers, the 'English' ones there do that too. It was a real change when I moved to Somerset and farmers out here actually LIKE trees.
Don't buy into the Amish 'image', they each have different values and priorities, cares and concerns, just like we do.
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