so our law changed this year. 45-70 or 44 mag in a Marlin? which one and why? should I be considering another option?

I'm not going to recommend one over the other for deer. I've had both and found them equally capable. When you get into bigger game the .45-70 will have an advantage, but deer?, either/or.

It would come down to how much weight you'd like to haul around, the .44 generally being lighter, both ammo and rifle. With that out of the way, I recently sold my .44 rifle, but it had nothing to do with the cartridge/rifle vs .45-70, but instead of simply having too many rifles....

Why not both? Works 4 me.

And, there is that.

The 44 would be my choice based purely on the rifle. They're a bit handier than the 45-70 for me.

What about range? Wouldn't the 44 run out of steam way before a 4570?

I took several deer with a 444 and a 45/70. The 44 mag would be handy for stalking or driving, imo. Tight close work.

I took several deer with a 444 and a 45/70. The 44 mag would be handy for stalking or driving, imo. Tight close work.

Several things to consider between the two cartridges. Like said in previous post the 44mag would be lighter to carry with less recoil. 44mag will have a capacity of 10rds. in rifle while the 45-70 will have 5rds. if that makes any difference. I did have a 1895 SS in 45-70 and sold it. Not familiar with a 44mag in rifle, but handgun I have. I have a 1894C 357mag in the Marlin that is a pleasure to shoot and is capable of using on deer if you limit your shot and place shot placement where it counts.Marlin discontinued the 357mag in their lever gun. Rossi and Henry still produce the 357mag in their lever gun. Which one is available in you area far as ammo? Do you reload your own ammo? 44mag would tend to be cheaper and with less recoil I believe you will tend to shoot more often to get more proficient with rifle. With the handgun cartridges you can shoot the special rounds in it.(44mag/44 special) same with the 357mag/38 special). Also you can pair up with a handgun which you can do also with the 45-70 with Magnum Research BFR revolver or T/C single shot handgun. But recoil would be more in 45-70 in handgun.

Whether handloading or shooting factory ammunition the 44 will be cheaper to shoot, not sure how much that will affect your decision.

How much rifle weight do you want to carry around?

Also I have no clue about recoil of the little 44s but if you are recoil sensitive I would think with anything other than mild Trapdoor loads the 45-70 would have more recoil.

I don't know 100% how trajectories compare but that could be another consideration if you have places where you need to stretch out a little bit if the 45-70 does shoot flatter.

Pretty sure there isn't a deer around that would know the difference if shot within 150 yards.

Not to any great degree. Both shoot bricks.

The .45-70 would hold the advantage in huge bullets that shoot through big things, but neither sets the long-range world on fire if held to modern parameters.

On deer, and with bullets suitable for deer, unless discussing minutia, it's a wash.

shots will be limited to 150 yards. I like the idea of lighter in a 1894 Marlin do handload so not a problem. I was looking at the Buffalo Bore deer grenades. They look like an equalizer out to the 150 mark.

ever consider a smokeless Muzzle loader? completely legal and much more range than a 45-70
I'm shooting a 325 Pittman Aeromax @ 2850 fps, with practice and a good rest it's a 500 yd killer

Sounds like your mind is pretty much made up.

Now you just need to find a JM stamped 1894 and get to shooting!!

I have a '92 in 44 mag. So fun. I killed some deer and many hogs with mine. I tried different ammo and the Hornady Lever Revolution shot a little better than most others BUT it s on game performance left something to be desired. Compared to the SKS (my other hog gun ) there was a marked difference. I went to a hollow point and expect better results. By that I mean bit more shock value and stuff STAYING down. Think you make a great call on the BB ammo for deer. The Lever Revolution might be better ammo in other calibers but I am not alone in being disappointed with the 44 mag stuff. Good luck and congrats on your new rifle. I LOVE toting the B92 around and do pretty well with it out to 100yds.

I have a spare shooter grade pre safety 44 mag I would sell/ trade. Pm me if you would like.

Neither, you need a 444. I happen to have one....

SLDUCK, It sounds like you're leaning toward a 44 magnum. Something to keep in mind, the Marlin 1894 has a 1/38" twist while the Ruger 77/44 has a 1/20" twist which will stabilize the heavier bullets better. I've had both and I liked the Ruger much better.

Just to muddy the water, the Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70 is a blast too! None of them are going to bounce off a deer

Whatever tickles your fancy more. I've used a .44 mag in the past. Recently picked up a .45-70 but haven't taken a deer with it yet. I'll do that this year. But I don't think the deer will care much either way.
-Jake

When 2 choices cover the immediate need, I'd opt for the one that offers scope outside the immediate need.

So we drew Iowa deer licenses for this coming season, what is the change that they have made? They now allow .45/70 rifles?

I don't see in the Iowa regs that the .45/70 or .44 is allowed in rifles.

I don't have much experience with lever gun, but I have killed a few deer with a 44 mag and 45/70 in a single shot rifle. From my experience, there is no comparison in killing power. The 45/70 puts them on the ground much quicker than a 44 mag.

Icw,depends on the bullet and the location of where the deer is hit. I've had them run 150yds. when heart shot with a 45/70 and had one drop in it's tracks,with the only movement being a slight twitch of the ear when shot with a 44 mag.

A high shoulder shot with the 44 mag.

I'd opt for .44 mag, if I could get a Ruger auto (sporter).
Not great shooters, not good trigger...............but good looking and usable.
Cool factor way high IMHO.

From My experience the 45-70 is a far better killing cartridge especially on large Whitetails ( like Midwest Iowa Whitetails).......Good luck in Iowa......Hb

My understanding of the new Iowa law is that you have to use handgun ammunition in any rifle, that would seem to eliminate the 45-70.

Edit: it looks like it is on the list in the Iowa DNR regs.

A Marlin 44 magnum with a Leupold 1-4 scope sounds good to me.

Any thoughts on the .38-55 cartridge, straight wall not pistol tho.

Yep..I'd opt for the 45-70....just in case...

Were it me, I would build a single shot in .357 Maximum. 200 grain bullet at1800± fps out of a 24" rifle barrel- what's not to like?

.375 Winchester?

Just about any straight case generating sane recoil levels is going to have a rainbow trajectory way out there, in some of those rolling Ohio hills.

well I did not do either I ended up with a 444 Marlin

I plan to purchase a 460 S&W Encore barrel for the upcoming Iowa deer season.

2900 fps out of a rifle barrel, with 200 grain bullets, should do the trick at some distance.

Hornady 200 grain

460 S&W video, around 2900FPS

Pistol calibers now legal for shotgun seasons 1 & 2 (others may well be added).



Iowa DNR Regs

Not a bad choice, either.

The only negatives I can see that is if you don't handload, ammo will be harder to find than the other two. Not impossible, just harder.

If you handload, be sure to use bullets that can handle the velocity.

It's a .44 mag on steroids, supercharger, and nitrous oxide.

I think he will set for a long time.wink

It seems that this is a recent addition to the regs. Great news overall. Looks like the old Marlin .45-70 will get some action this year.

I killed one deer with a 44 Magnum carbine. Beware factory ammo meant for revolvers--if you move it 300 fps faster, then bullet performance gets erratic. Don't ask me how I learned that.

Also, I learned pretty quickly that having 3-4 rounds in the tube is plenty. More just makes the gun heavier.


Okie John

I have zero hunting experience with the 45-70 cartridge but I've downed 19 deer with my RUGER 44 MAG carbine. None got away. I've had my quickest kills shooting Hornady hollow tip bullets and weight does not seem to matter. 200 grain or 240 grain bullets hit hard within reasonable distances. All of my shots have been taken at about 100 yards or less. One year, I loaded up some 270 grain Speer Deep Curl bullets for wild hogs and found that this combo out penetrates all other bullets I've tried. It's a better choice for tougher animals than common deer in my opinion.

Ballistically speaking, the mighty 44 MAG is a fairly short range cartridge compared to .308 or 270 but this is not a handicap to a patient hunter who selects his ambush locations carefully.

Sherwood

I've used the 44 mag and 45-70 in leverguns a lot through the years. 125 yards was a long shot with one of my Winchester 94 .44 mags but it was cake for the Marlin or H&R .45-70. I feel 175 starts getting long for the traditionally loaded 45-70. Leverevolutions of course change things for both rounds.

Having used the 44 Mag Marlin on one deer, Im glad my home state will recognize it as a legal tool. Shotguns on their best day suck ass.

This has more to do with selling more licenses and tags than anything else, believe me. But its about time.

I had great luck with shotguns.
Mossberg 500 w smooth bore, D&T and scoped. Back in the day.
Took deer cleanly to 150 yards.

Got a rifled bore 870, D&T and changed to WW HI Supremes. BT's were way shorter, with more down at the shot.

Effectiveness? Shotguns work just fine. Recoil is pretty mean though.

Note: I tested stuff, and when I found what worked, would buy 10 boxes of slugs, all from one lot #.

Had a Marlin .44 mag lever gun............it shot well. No bucks big enough that yr. I sold it and got a TC .35 rem carbine.
That was a fun rig!

I have a 44 mag 1894, for around the camp, with peep sights. If I was buying it for just hunting, I'd go 45-70 probably. Bigger is better. I realize both will do the job. You can use both on black bear even,


But if you want to shoot it, 44mag is fun. I am told you can load 45-70 down. Not sure to the light levels of 44 mag. Unique and it almost feels like 22. Even with H110 pleasant to shoot.

I really not interested in guns that require certain shot placement. Though I think 44 in the lungs is fine.

Elmer Keith though 44 mag was better than 30-30 at close ranges, due to bigger hole. Be interesting to know his opinions on modern bullets. Would he still be shooting lead? 30-30, is not all that powerful, but obviously killed alot of deer.

Then there is the hole Marlin JM and Remlins discussion. I got my 1894 around 2012, and it had lots of quality problems. Buggered screws, and stripped holes for mounting sights. Sent it in, go it back fast. New screws in each hole, but still stripped. Sent back, another new screw in receiver. You could drop the plugs in, only 1 thread was catching.

At this point I could either get my money back or wait a couple weeks, as they were retooling line. I waited. Next one very smooth. 1st one I literally cycled 1k times. If you talk to honest old marlin owners, they will tell you the old ones were not the holy grail, they were made out to be. The term marlin jam, was invented before Remington bought them.

Hopefully they retooled the lines, and are better. I handled another in the store, and it felt great.

I would not wait until right before deer season to get any lever. Lots of moving parts.

I put a Ranger medium loop. Cheapest and quickest shipping. Like ergonomics. Not oversized, but about right. Finish looks more like paint, than blue. I am ok, my guns are all more working guns, and not collectors. I had to file new angles, and shorten other angles. Some people say drop right in. I don't know if I just had bad luck, or people afraid to speak out about sponsors.

Muleloops use your own loops, just weld bigger loop. I'd be tempted to do this next time. I think he is slower, he actually blues them he says, so waits for enough. WWG told me about the other rifles they made them for, when asked if ever going to do 1894 again. Kinda chapped my rump roast.

I like my skinner peep. If I was shooting 100 yards, I would just go with a scope, even though some object cosmetically on levers, and if my only deer rifle. I bought it for camp and walking.

My only deer with the Marlin 44 was at about 60 yards.

The shot was ass first quartering; the bullet entered the guts and exited the oppsite side just in front of the shoulder. It would be like getting shot below your kidney and having it exit your opposite collarbone.

It was a 300gr. softnosed cast lead bullet.

Miles better than any friggen shotgun, of which Ive had the displeasure of shooting many deer with....

I wouldn't want to gut shoot a deer, due to the mess. But If it was the big one walking away, I probably would.

I liked the BRI style deer slug in the WW High Impact Supremes.
Rifled bore, it shot 5 under 2" at 100 yards.
.50 cal hole...........I only recovered one slug. That deer shot at 12 paces, front edge of onside shoulder, the slug stopped under the hide on opp ham.

Only taken one deer w .44 mag rifle. 65 yards w Norma factory JHP, '66 Ruger carbine sporter. Iron sights.
Took out shoulder and spine (was coming down hill). DRT.

Like to put a 1-4X on that Ruger. Pops won't let me LOL.

Its about knowing versus guessing.

People get off on "modern" bullets to the point that somehow ANYTHING but a broadside, double lung shot is the only certain, ethical shot.
Oddly enough, the bullet I made did exactly what I poured it to do. If viewed from someone who routinely shoots deer with a 270 and a 150 Ballistic Tip, yeah, its going to be messy and might not always work out so well.

A gut shot? Nope. Exited exactly where I knew it would. Instant kill.
"Gut shots" dont work out that way.YMMV.

That was a decent slug.

Would still take a slab sided levergun in deference to a full sized pump/auto bird gun.

Zerk, the high shoulder shot was in reference to my post just prior to that. I've shot several buck through the lungs and head on with the 44 mag.,they all died pronto.

I'm not a lever gun fan. My deer slug guns were high comb stocked, drilled and tapped receivers and trigger jobs........dedicated rigs............not bird guns.
Have had 1894 in.44mag.
BigBore 94 in .307
Reg 94 in .30-30
Sav 99 in .300 sav
and four 9422M

Tried and tried and still no likey a lever gun.

I wouldn't mind a Ruger #1 in .44 mag or .357...........but rather have one redone in .35 rem.

Around here the rubes think of them as lever action single shots LOL.

My Marlin .44 mag shot well, only tried the 240gr Hornady factory ammo in it.
No need to try anything else since it was sub 2" w scope (at 100 yds).
Was pre Cerberus.
Nice gun, just never took a shine to it.

I have both a Marlin 1894 in 44 magnum and an 1895 in 45/70. I haven't killed a lot of deer with them, but the on game performance has been very similar for me. Shot to the vitals with large exit wound. 30 yard death dash and a pile up. I handload and am able tom make my 45-70 a comfortable 200 yard gun. With my 44 magnum, about 125 is my comfort range.

Yup, 125 yards is sensible.
I'm lacking a bit of that so would go to 150.
And be happy to smoke them all at half that distance.

It depends on a lot of things.

Id take a lever simply because of handiness on drives and portability on still hunts with ample accuracy.
A dedicated accuracy shotgun from a stand makes sense too, but if the ground n pound is needed, its now a HEAVY assed bird gun.

Ive hunted quite a bit with a handgun the last several years on stands and still hunting. For drives its still the 12 gauge. A lever would work nicely in that regard and is welcomed.

High comb stock, scope of low mount...........makes for a reflexive slugger.
1 or 1.5X makes movers easy.

Lever guns scoped.............often the stock isn't designed for that.

Think maybe a Burris Fastfire on a lever gun to be pretty wicked. Certainly maintain the handy quality.

Eh, if I get a Fastfire it'll go on a Superredhawk.

Pops Ruger auto is peep sight w large bead front. That front sight sucks.
He won't let me swap it for a smaller bead.
Eh, when I get it (eventually) it'll have a Leupold 1-4X.
Ought to be nice on drives.

Lots of hunting pressure around my old spot, deer would need a boot in the azz to get to moving mid week.
Not my favorite technique, but it worked, and could be fun.
Decent sized spot. Now I hunt elsewhere, smaller...........stand and still hunt only.
.44 mag would do all I need.

However.............a .45-70 double rifle might be a fun rig.
A .44 mag one would be pretty sweet.

Always thought this to be a cool slugger.....

RBL Professional.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QbiE7Cerrg

45 Colt, Model 1892

Looks like the 450 bushmaster is now legal for Iowa's shotgun seasons, opening the door for a Ruger American.



Iowa DNR Regs

I have a friend who shot a 9 pt buck at 192 yards, measured, with a 44 mag. The buck turned to run away and he raised and shot. He hit it about 2" from his rear end hole, and we found the bullet in the neck. It traveled completely through the deer under the spine. Deer dropped like a freight train hit it. Friends father said, "I don't know how you made that shot". Friend said he aimed about a foot high at the tip of his tail and shot. He knew the bullet would drop. He was only about 16 or 17 at the time. He said, today he would not take that shot, but he wanted a deer really bad.

So yes, a 44 mag can kill out to 150 yards. Might have to aim high at a distance. If you are using a scope, probably sight in about 3-4" high at 100. It would probably be 3-4" low at 150. They make a big hole.

Hope you have the sense to hang on to that lovely gal!

Well, I for one am glad a light bulb went on in Des Moines. Part of the reason I've become a libertarian is the proclivity for state legislatures made up of average people who then feel compelled to pass laws based on little or bad information, the downstream effects of which they have no idea of.

I will be caring and hopefully using a Marlin JM 44 mag, vintage of around the latter part of the Decade of Bad Taste (the 70's for you of more tender years). It'll have a small Burris red dot on it.

Ammo/bullet as yet to be determined.

She's put on a few #s since then.
If I win the lottery I can get her a tummy tuck, face lift, boob job, brain transplant and tape hundred dollar bills all over her, drop her off downtown............and if lucky some blind deaf old moron will take her off my hands.

My next gal will be younger, have big t*ts and a couple hundred acres of good hunting ground.
Couple buddies lost their hunting spots.

Just trying to help 'em out.

Deer season around the corner............no time for women stuff..
Surprised she went to LGS and bought a semi auto .22.................figured she'd get a 39M...............was rather honked I sold one yrs ago.

Has said she might even deer hunt.............WTH? I reckon specials in a .44 magnum..............proly end up with .357 rifle.
Who freakin' knows..............women do whatever the heck they want.

I've not messed with .45-70.
Couple buds had Marlins and Ruger #1's.

Was looking at a #1 in .460 S&W...........but never found one.

Our (Indiana) PCR regs have no straight wall mandate.
Used to be 1.16- 1.625 case length, .35 cal and up.
They changed a while back to max of 1.8"............so the .460 would be legal, and one could trim a .35 rem to fit.
The latter quite popular.

Can only run PCR stuff (plus MZ shotgun and handgun) on public land.
Private they changed last yr, to include "regular" rifles.

Some .44 Marlins showing up at LGS.........they don't last long. Even with the reg change, folks on private ground usually do well with .44 mags.......pretty comfy. For most of our deer hunting, shots tend to be 150 yards and in.

How does the .460 S&W stack up against the .45-70?

Fair number of folks running .450 Bushmaster.

I'm in Iowa here as well. Same decision, though mine was easy. I have a Marlin 94 in 44 magnum that since moving back home from MN I have been unable to use. So for me its .44 mag, but that fits where we hunt very well. More gun is just more gun. You take an ethical shot with a 44 and there aren't many deer in the world if any, that will survive.

45-70? Not a thing wrong with that either.

For most of us, the issue really isn't cartridge..........but what cool gun can we use
Looks may be an important factor.
My buddy likes the short Trapper W 94. I find them hideous.
I like falling blocks, guy at work thinks them grotesque (and worthless, being single shot).
To each his own.

Going for funky looks............how bout the new Ruger American in .450 BM?
Magul stock fit it?
If so, add a Tacticool 1-4X

Gotta admit..........that one has my curiosity.

Both will work. The 44 would be more fun to shot due to lack of recoil.

Just tossing it out there................

nobody makes a .44 magnum double rifle.

.

Deer season around the corner............no time for women stuff..

Always time for women stuff.

Balance, Grasshopper, balance!

My sentence was commuted.

I'm drinking Trooper ale and looking at Gunbroker. Skankajawea has QVC on.
Doesn't bother me.
Pretty much tune the chickens out.

You're pretty hard on that Gal. Didn't look to be anything wrong with her in that picture.

Agreed. I mean, she's not Chinese, but otherwise seems like a fine woman, certainly better than a certain old fart probably deserves.😜


Serious thread drift in progress.

Yrs ago I paid a lot of money to earn the right to not give a chit LOL.

Owes me a gun safe full of goodies.
I'd take a .44 mag or .45-70 as a starter.
Thread back on track

But seriously.............anybody ever use a .45-70 double?
There's the Baikal and Kodiak stuff.

Passed on a Kodiak .50 cal MZ yrs ago and kinda regret it.
Have been thinking of the Baikal .30-06 double.

Also thought about maybe getting a Savage 311 and redoing it to .44 mag.

Silly, but a .44 mag double for in the woods..........intrigues me.

Could just down load a .45-70 Baikal double...........but I never warmed up to that cartridge. Pops loves it. Buddies too.
Just never liked the looks of it. Crazy.............but is what it is.

Not silly at all, just difficult and expensive.

Uh oh, sounds like we're talking about women again.

There's a guy making falling block doubles, if you can imagine that, but prices start about eight, thousand that is.

If Henry ever gets in gear, a nice, affordable single will be available, but who knows when that will be. Was due in May.

I saw some pics of that falling block you mention.
FWIW Connecticut Shotgun Manufacturing made a rifled 20 ga double that was only 3500.
RBL professional I think they called it.

But a .44 mag double, for in the woods....just seems a great match.
Cheaper to just get a Baikal .45-70.

Thankfully none have been at any gunshows I've visited.

I haven't seen any of the new Henry stuff save for two lever .243 wins.
Think they call it "long range"?

For a cheap gun, I was trying to find a .35 rem CVA Scout 2. Sold out.
The .44 mag version is cool, just wish it had walnut instead of plastic.
Could film dip the plastic I reckon, to look like wood..........but buttstock has stupid swivel deal.

My hunting bud runs the CVA hunter in .35 rem. It shoots very well.

H&R made a .45-70 IIRC.............called it a buffalo rifle or something.
Since they stopped production even the newer plastic .44 mag stuff has jumped a bit in price.
I think the CVA scout 2 about as cheap a rifle I'd go.

Enough of this............I'm heading to the LGS to have a look.
I have a 2-7X Leupold laying around.........it needs a rifle!

44 mag or 45/70? Neither. Get a Rossi model 92 in 454 Casull. As handy as the 44 mag but packs almost the range of a 45/70. 300 grain Freedom Arms factory load chronograph 2085 fps. I never notice recoil when shooting at game especially in cold weather. If you are into semi autos the 44 Ruger is great but they are pricey and hard to find. A mech tech carbine is a ballistic equal in 460 Rowland.

Why I didn't buy a CVA scout 2 in .44 mag.............pops has a minty Ruger auto, fingergroove.
When IN first allowed PCR I popped a deer with it.
Haven't scoped it to see how good it could be.
Ran it w peep. Worked OK to 75 yards (front bead too big for my tastes).
Trigger isn't very good.

this past December in iowa I used a Winchester 1885 in 47-70. single shot rifle. I shot a 12 pt. at 150 yds. I blew 2 ribs out of each side and destroyed literally everything in the body cavity from front to back. lungs and heart jelly. I was shooting the Hornaday leverevolution 325 grain bullet. on my first trip to iowa I shot a 10 pt with tc encore slug barrel 12 gauge using the Remington accu tip 385 grain bullet. feal like the 45-70 is a solid 200 yd gun, and the slug 150 yd gun. either a fine choice.

Another option for you may be the 45 LC. It can be loaded to very effective hunting power as well as cheap plinking. Its available in most levers that offer the 44 Magnum.

SIL lives in Iowa and asked the same question. I mentioned my .375 Win but bullets are hard to come by. The new 350 Legend would be my current recommendation for him - just needs to wait until he can get one.

I never could understand the restrictions against bottleneck cartridges. Can't used a 30-30 but can use an inline with 150 grains of powder that can easily reach 200 yards.

nope i would get a new Ruger # 1 in a 460 s.w. that way you can handload better ammo,plus a 460 s.w. you can use 454 casull and 45 long colt ammo too in this rifle, plus put a decent scope on this rifle.

I think I'd second Pete53's recommendation and hadn't ever thought about the .460 S&W, but I was reading an article in one of the magazines recently where they said that the .454 Casull is one hot round out of a lever action rifle, has the same ballistics as a .45-70 and the advantage of shooting that milder .45 Long Colt cartridge as well. The actual bullet diameter is larger than either the .44 Mag. or the .45-70.

Coyote-, if, IF we get some good rifles in the new 350 L, its what I’ll be looking at. Win has some pictures up but it’s anybody’s guess when there will be hard copies available. It should be a good round without some of the uneeded sound & fury of some of the bigger “straight-walls.”

It be nice to see a lever gun or a semiauto too in the mix.

I've killed blacktailed deer in Oregon with both.

The plus to the .44 is considerably less recoil. (Mine was a Winchester 94 Trapper.) A lot of fuss is made about the 1-38" twist not being suitable for heavy bullets. I guess my gun didn't read the gun rags so it didnt know it wasn't supposed to shoot them well.

The plus to .45-70 is you can go with light-for-caliber bullets that are as heavy as heavy-for-caliber .44s and shoot them faster / flatter.

Out to 75 yards, I'd pick the .44. At 150, I'd pick the .45-70.

If you are buying a new gun, not just using what's already in the closet, I'd go with the 1894 cowboy over the standard 1894. I think rifles with the magazine suspended from a hanger rather than clamped to the barrel via a barrel band near the muzzle shoot better. Every one of the MOA / sub MOA Marlins I've owned had the magazine attached via a hanger. That's 6. The ones with the barrel bands, at least my small sample, have all been 2-3 MOA guns. I like being able to head shoot squirrels at 100+ yards with a lever action. It's a good confidence builder off-season.

Tom