So I've hunted with cup and core bullets for my whole life, looking to switch over to copper solids, but as I look at them in .308 and .338 I see alot fo folks are using them on Elk, Moose and other substantially larger game, and the bulllet/ammo manefacturers are advertising them for heavier critters. True I do occasionally see a heavy hog (got 4 last year over 200) but they are more of an opportunity that I take when it presents itself opposed to what I am chasing during deer season.

By moving from traditional old tech bulllets to copper solids in these versatile middle calibers to I risk punching clear through smaller deer becaue the Bullets are too tough? I kinda like my "1-bullet-killl-anything" process that I have now, but if I could eek out a little more accuracy and put a little less lead in the environment I would prefer to do so...

My personal feeling is that there is very little to be gained by moving away from cup and core bullets. Deer are just not that hard to kill.

Our camp has shot all our deer in the past 16 years with standard Hornady Interlock and Rem CoreLokts. The bullets do their part if we do ours. A .308 165 grain Hornady SP IL will flatten any whitetail or hog in the CONUS at reasonable ranges if the hunter does his part. Forget moose and elk unless you are going hunting for moose and elk.

As to the environmental aspects at lobbing lead, my personal feeling is you are taking a leak in the ocean on that one. A chunk of lead is pretty well sequestered once it buries itself in the ground.

As to accuracy: if you are having accuracy issues in regards to whitetail hunting, then I would look at everything else before I focused on bullet design.

My overall suggestion to you is that you have been reading too many magazines. As a fellow who has been dispensing advice to deer hunters for a long time, I can tell you that this is a common problem and easily fixed.

1) Remove all reading material related to deer hunting from your current domicile. Refrain from purchasing additional material for at least a year.
2) Go find the cheapest deer ammo that will safely operate in your rifle. Remington Corelokts from Wally World are fine.
3) Practice shooting until you can hit a pie-plate offhand at 50 yards and 100 yards from an improvised rest.
4) Go hunt.

Wash, rinse, repeat.
Report back with pictures.

Believe me, I wish someone had told me all this in 1982. It would have saved me a decade or so of trouble.

I'd sling 130gr Barnes TTSX in the 308 for deer, no heavier than 150.

They'll expand but they LIKE speed, you can't push them too fast Oh, and f&ck worrying about the 'putting lead into the environment', lead ain't man made..

I agree with Steelhead here. The Barnes 130 gr. TTSX is an excellent bullet. That's what I'm shooting through my 300 Savage courtesy of some handloading expertise from MILES58.

Any piticular reason you need to move away from your current set up? If you have been having success with what you have ?????

I've been killing most of my deer with cast bullets in .30 rifles and/or soft lead balls out of muzzle loaders. Old technology works today as it has for over half a millennia. It's a deer, not a truck. There are many more things in life to worry about than deer bullet efficiency- putting the bullet where it counts being chief among them.

I got some 130 TSX's with a mind to try them in a .300 Savage. Been two years now, maybe some day.

If it "ain't" broke, don't fix it is an old adage that get's a lot of play, but it really applies here. You do not need "copper solids" as you say, to kill a deer. Your .308 stoked with 165 gr Nosler BT, Rem. Core-Lok, etc will handle, with authority ANY "tick toter" that this continent has to offer..

I am in possession of nearly as many Accubonds as Nosler. Still yet, I am a BIG fan of the CoreLokt & InterLock. Love killing Whitetails & Axis with 150 CoreLokt's.

Don't we risk punching clear through smaller deer with any bullet? Why is that a problem?

Fun question.

Too answer some of the questions, I've had good luck in the past with Winchester silver tips in .270 and .243 those guns are gone now. I came across a lot of federal fusion rounds in 165 .308 and had mixed results with them last year... 3 deer and 5 hogs in a few hunting trips but I had real inconsistent results as far as expansion and penetration. Nothing 150 works well in that rifle, 165-168 grain stuff shoots lights out.

In .338 federal I also used 200 gr federal fusions they kill good on neck shots, but don't penetrate the bigger pigs from odd angles, I got 3 in 20 minutes in one sitting a few months back the one quartering away took a second round to go down.

Last week picked up 5 boxes at a steal of the 338 federal 200 gr. Trophy copper solids at a gander mountain that was going under locally. As I started researching I had some questions and asked the experts here. I'm gonna give them a shot. Luckily hogs are plentiful I'll have several chances to drop a few of those before deer season so I know what they will do on game before I start throwing them at deer. That gun shoots 1" groups and I leave it at 1.5" high at 100 and its 2" low at 200. Great brush country rifle!

I prefer 2 holes for blood exiting, but I'd also like the bullet to expand and deposit some energy in the animal, cause some additional tissue damage and put it down more efficiently.

Agreed.

I got some lead slivers in my last batch of venison burgers... I feed my kids this stuff. I'm more concerned about putting lead in their bodies. A bullet that retains 99% of its weight appeals to me... if only so that there is less chance of my family eating it.

Thank you for the speed comment, with my chopped 17" Kimber Montana and mid-heavy for weight bullets I might be better off hand loading lighter stuff in the 338 federal. Wish I could find the 160 gr. ttsx bullets somewhere

Then listen to steelhead's advice and go lighter/faster. You'll get both pass-throughs and better expansion.

Exactly what I was thinking.
Your 338Fed is calling for 160gr Barnes, I can hear it from my place.

This.

I've killed a bunch of deer with Barnes 130 grainers in 30 cal rifles. They work way better than 180 cup and cores and I push them as fast as is reasonable. Load them up to 3150 FPS out of the 308 and be happy. I have never recovered one, and have only seen one recovered out of 60-70 deer killed with them and loaded by me. All perfect performance.. IMO if you don't have to shoot 350+ yards, there is no better deer bullet for 30 cal rifles.

I have hunted whitetails since the early 60's and have been a handloader since the early 70's. I have successfully harvested deer with bullets from Hornady, Sierra, Speer and Nosler and have not felt the need for premium bullets. For elk the long discontinued Speer 275gr. RN was the ideal bullet for me, MOA accuracy and never had to shoot an elk more than once.

Jeff O calls that "way overpenetrating".

I've been waiting for that !

I like TWO (2) holes for the reasons stated.

Jerry

I think a lot of hunters got all hung up on bullet weight retention, premium bullets, etc... That stuff is golden on Big Game, but deer?

Conventional cup & core at "normal" velocity works great! I prefer a "softer" bullet that expands readily for deer. The Nosler Ballistic Tip, Berger VLD are my favorite deer bullets.

Guy

About any standard bullet that won't fragment will kill any deer. Skip the premiums and spend the savings on more bullets and practicing. That'll kill far more deer than high $ bullets.

Deer meat for most tends to be "over" expensive to the extreme. The extra expensive of a premium, if one chooses to use one adds little to the cost per pound.

A .308W with 130 TTSX is about perfect for your one bullet kill anything.

Thanks, I should have been more clear in my initial post, cost isn't an issue. I was really concerned with unexpanding bullets poking holes clear through animals due to their construction/ my velocity not being enough to get them to open. I'm going to follow the 110-130gr TTSX advise given many times on this forum, my back of the napkin math has the 110's flying out of my 18" kimber adirondack at 3300-3400fps and the 130's flying at 3000-3100. probably add a 100 FPS if I screw on the suppressor.

plenty of good anecdotes with those combos all over the web, might even try loading the 110's in 300 BLK for the kiddos, I think I could get them up to 2400 or so. I've always been a heavy for caliber guy, the advice of dropping weight and adding speed with the Mono's is a new way for me to think, but I'm excited to try it out!

While I accept your per pound analogy, I am of the mind that one should do what you can to economize. As it is, buying premium bullets in the 50-lot for more than a standard C&C bullet costs in a 100-lot seems to be worth questioning. That is, unless there is a meaningful difference.

Obviously, there are people on this thread that are of the belief that a premium Barnes bullet is better. I admit, I have never launched such a projectile at a deer, so I speak from ignorance.

The average shot on a whitetail is about 80 yards. Our camp's average is somewhat above that. Our normal working range is within 150 yards. Our average range is just under 74 yards. We shoot a mix of .308 chamberings. I shoot .308 WIN and 30-06. My sons shoot 30-06 and 7.62X54R. My one buddy was shooting a 300 Win Mag for a while and went back to 30-06. We shoot a mix of Hornady IL SP's and Rem Corelokts in the 150-165 variety.

My question is for those who are experienced with the Barnes offerings: Exactly what improvements would we expect if we went to Barnes? How much deader would the deer be?

For me, there is the matter of quality-of-deadness. Since I am a semi-public individual who writes frequently of my exploits, I need a special something that the Barnes product just does not have. I covered this back in 2009:

In the Shamanic Reloading Cave



As to the environmental concerns mentioned by the OP:

I'd wonder if copper is all that more environmentally friendly than lead. More and more, I'm resorting to bullets from cast lead made from range scrap. This is recycling, and as such, I'm helping the planet in my own way. If you really want to delve into whether copper or lead is worse, you have to look clear back to the mining. I'm not sure a pit mine that extracts copper is any more friendly to the planet than one that digs up lead. I'm not sure. Help me out. Either way, if I was truly worried about it, I'd buy offsetting carbon credit to salve my conscience and so folks would still think I was hip. I might also think about limiting myself to only shooting deer that wandered past my bedroom window so that I could limit my carbon footprint by minimizing transportation and shooting over only licks that were made with solar sea salt.

I'm just saying.

Three times I've had a Barnes go lengthwise on a Deer. Once each with a .22-250, .338Fed and a .308W. Have caught two. Once with a .223AI that went down the spine and a .308W that again traveled down the spine a ways. The rest have passed thru on shoulder and lower shots. Barnes and the like are extra insurance. Side to side, I've also had the recent NBT's and Accubonds normally give two holes. They have a proven track record on Deer and bigger. Still, the Barnes should on most occasions dig deeper if the situation presents that it is needed or wished for. Which is the meaningful difference. I use them all, but if I had to bet on reliability of meeting their standard, I would bet on Barnes.

Yes, I've done a Texas Heart Shot, rather accidental I might add, with a Rem Corelokt and had similar results. I've also had a 165 grainer Hornady go end-to-end from the brisket back.

However, I'm sure there's more to it. I mean Barnes couldn't make a profit by saying "2 of every 3 ass shooters prefer the TTSX"

That funny!!!! But since I'm not adverse to going from back to front, I'd be one of the two.

I really like the way this conversation is going. I think we've finally gotten to the nub of the issue: Copper Bullets really are for the folks who want to send it where the sun never shines!


So what about us fellas that prefer a through-the-ribs-and-out-through-the-far-side kind of approach?

Copper bullets are for those that don't want everything blown to sheit, don't want to chew on shrapnel but do want bullets that work when everything is wrong, not when everything is right.

Is that more of the ignorance you were talking about that you wear like a badge of honor?

You normally will not need them. Have to make that second shot on a runner going away? You may wish you had them. It's almost always about odds.

I'd be the last to think of my ignorance as a badge of honor, sir. I'd also be the first to admit that I am still a student in these arts despite 35 seasons' experience.

I'm just asking is all. What benefits have you seen?

The benefit(s) have already been posted. More than once.

I'm tending to agree with you at this point.

Alas.

Since you are looking for the negatives:

On average I've seen smaller exit holes, less blood on exit. However, opposite to what most see, I have had them go down quicker with copper than c-c. Most see the opposite. I would think the reason being I normally try to break shoulders. The sunny side if available. If not, the other.

I think that the copper argument is mute, when applied to deer. For bigger game, they are possibly an advantage, but any bullet will kill deer pretty well. Lots are even using target bullets. I have used Barnes a bit, but never found them to be a game changer and have had rifles that were pickier with them, also. I have always used Hornady Interlocks etc. for deer and never been left wanting, OR thought that they destroyed an excessive amount of meat.

The meat destruction is a non-starter with me. First, there is not that much meat in the shoulders and I have rarely not been able to salvage at least some of it. Second, if you shoot them through the lungs, it is a non-issue. If you shoot them through the hind quarters, then it is not the bullet's fault, it is YOURS. As far as lead consumption, I think that is just more environmental bs. In all of my years, I have never heard of ONE person that had health issues because of a small bit of lead in the meat they eat. If you eat beef, you probably get more poison from the meds in it, than with a bit of lead in wild meat.

Shoot what you want. That is called freedom to choose, but the real argument for superiority is only for discussion. In reality it does not exist.

A Frame, North fork or Partition

Your deer are tougher than mine.

Like the coming of spring and the return of the Buzzards to Hinkley, Ohio, I look upon this thread in a similar light. Along about this time of year we all start thinking deer and we all start thinking how far it is to season. The premium bullet thread is just one of the many. However, I've never seen it drift towards ass-shooting before. This makes this thread unique. I applaud.

Reminds me: I've got to start my countdown timer to the start of rifle season!

Pretty sure this post was the beginnings of the drift. 😂

Are they better deader if they escape to die, or if you finish that going away cripple with one to the rear? Foolish to think an azz shot is never appropriate. Killing game is never a clean pastime. Although many are like to think they do so. Funny.

Look, I'm not being judgemental about the THS. Whatever works. I prefer the boiler room, but I'll take what I can get in a pinch. I'm also not convinced my lousy Hornady 165 grain Interlocks are going to cause a lost deer where a Barnes is going to do better. We've probably done that sort of thing an equal number of times. I've had about equal results. I just thought it was worth pulling your leg over your support of the Barnes included the THS as evidence. I'm envisioning that in an Outdoor Life ad, and I'm laughing.

BTW: I updated my website so the countdown clock is ticking.

Fun is fun, until someone gets a leg pulled. Hope you didn't mind. 😉

But, I'd do a THS in a heartbeat if I was in the mood. Done right they die just as quickly.

Oh, I don't mind. I don't even mind getting a stray snark from Steelhead, bless his heart.

I've been involved with deer hunting forums since before the Internet. One thing always stands out and that's how easy it is to make a deer go into a toes-up configuration.

You lob a 50 cal+ projectile at one from a charcoal burner or a shotgun, and they go toes-up.
You launch a .44-something at a deer with a pistol, and it goes toes-up.
You fire a 30-something refugee from the Spanish American War at a deer and. . . it goes toes up.

. . . and then folks turn around and go into minute detail about how you need special alloys, plastic tips and all that premium stuff to kill a deer effectively.

This is why I have concluded that the use of a solid copper bullet is something that goes beyond practical reality and interacts with something beyond the Veil. You ask me why copper, and I'm pulling out my rattle before I turn to a reloading manual. In Alchemy, Copper vibrates towards the planet Venus whereas lead vibrates towards Saturn. However, how that all relates to killing deer is beyond my shamanic pay grade. Most of my alchemist friends have serious brain damage from sniffing solvents, so I don't expect a meaningful answer from them. Whatever the underlying alchemical basis, some folks feel drawn to copper bullets, whereas some want lead sheathed in guilding metal. What can I say? Some days one feels like a nut, etc. The most important thing is that we listen to these voices coming from inside us. If one of them drives you to use copper bullets, it is an important omen. Even though I'm not very skilled in the alchemical significances, I can usually help a querent find the reasons behind it. In the old days, we shamans used to dose them on. . . oh, nevermind, that was Old School. Nowadays, we take the querent on a spirit journey, find the nearest handy spirit animal and ask directions.

What is over-bulleting, after all, but a sincere search for something beyond? Beyond what? Exactly. It's like I was saying the other day to my friend, Bob, the retired gun editor.

"Bob," I said. "Exactly what was it you were trying to say?"

"Well," he laughed. "It's all those pain killers they keep feeding me." Bob's in rehab right now for a broken femur. "I completely lost track of my point."

"That's okay," I replied. "It was incoherent but entertaining. You were just getting to a point about Elmer Keith."

"Oh!" he said. "Yes, I remember now. One day Elmer handed me a rough draft of something he'd written the night before and had me read it. It was absolute gibberish, and I handed it back to him and told him so."

"I was afraid of that," replied Elmer. "That's happening more and more lately. "

Coincidence you say? Too much lead and not enough copper? Who's to say. Most would agree that it was too much alcohol. At least that was Bob's assessment.

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is simply . . .

I use monos in quite a few rifles and I'd have to say that if you only hunt medium size game in thick areas and prefer rib/lung shots, you'll not be as happy with monos as traditional cup-and-core pills or even other premium bullets. For me personally game runs much further, bleeds much less, and is on the whole much more of a PITA to find when using monos and soft tissue impacts. The up side is you don't have to worry about not having an exit and you don't have to worry about bad angles. The solution is obviously to aim for bone, but I personally don't prefer that option(I try to save all edible meat and I hate the blood shot bone frag filled mess that's left behind on shoulder impacts) I'm gearing back into partitions and bonded pills for most rigs and leaving monos for my light uber fast applications.

It's amazing what 15 minutes with Photoshop will produce:




Sorry, I just could not help myself.

I can make a smaller version available for anyone who wants it for their Avatar.

Sold!!! Can yo make me one avatar sized just the TX heart shot bullseye if that's all that fits

All I"m going to say is I have frontal chest shot deer with partitions, and never had full penetration and an exit.

I have shot frontal chests a couple of times with a small 6mm round and barnes and never have not had an exit.

We can harvest 5 deer a year here. Means I MIGHT shoot 7 rounds with checking zero. And that box of 50 is going to last me more than 10 years becuase i'll take some deer with an arrow.

The day that I can't afford barnes for what we shoot, is the day I need to give it up.

Only really because I believe in the motto be prepared.... And as such I've seen standard bullets do some really wild/weird things in our small deer even... such that I want a margin of error, not just a wing and a prayer.

Especially the day a buck stopped the 180 partition out of my 300 in his neck at around 100 or 125ish yards. His spine stopped it. I say that meaning it was all there, all up against the spine and it broke the spine but never penetrated. When a cup and core fails to penetrate a simple neck bone of a deer... and I've seen it even from a small pig and a sierra game king.... fairly heavy for caliber at 160 out of 7 mag.... pig only 50ish pounds shot in top of neck walking away. Bullet did not exit. But did break spine at least while coming apart...

Of course I forgot to ad that I've said if it was legal I'd take quite a few of our deer with a 22lr. And I stand by that. But having to be picky about shots......

So the bottom line is when its all on the line, nothing but a barnes. When it doesn't matter if I have to pass up a shot....almost anything will work most of the time.

Oh, you're right. I forgot we were talking about Whitetails. So, back to the CoreLokt, InterLock or Ballistic Tip.

Enjoy!

Looks great thank you!!

<------

I've only shot 3 animals with monos, and have been unimpressed, but I also haven't shot them real fast either. The general consensus is that they work well when thrown at warp speed. I've got no reason to dispute that.

I doubt you could go wrong with the 130 barnes, but you may also want to look at some bonded bullets if you're concerned about lead. I'm not a nosler fan, but the accubond is a good choice as is about any other bonded core bullet. The hot-cors are also really good bullets that I have used quite a bit.

One reason I prefer double lung shots if at all possible is because it'll keep any bullet fragments, whether lead or copper, out of the shoulder meat. This may be "bad" but I actually hope raptors eat the gut pile and lungs with lead fragments in it. Some folks don't like the runners, but my experience shows that deer generally run 30-50 yards at most with a solid double lung hit, which isn't much further than shoulder shot animals but you don't have to deal with so much FUBARed meat. I will and have taken a THS though, and will again at some point I am sure. The base of the tail bone is a deadly shot, though you can ruin some backstrap. In those situations a mono probably is the "best" choice.

My 45-70 and its 405 grain cup n core will likely end to end a deer or elk. Not something I would consciously do though.

This type of discussion is akin to my need of a Ford 350 crew cab long bed diesel pickup to get to the office.

I haven't had any trouble killing deer with cup/core bullets. Most of mine have fallen quickly to various 150 and 170 grain .30-30 bullets from Win., Rem, Horn. or Sierra. Another sizeable bunch to various 85, 95 and 100 grain C&C bullets from my .243's and no complaints, difficulties or failures there either. Shot a deer in the azz once back in 1981 with my .30-06 and 180 RNCL. Haven't found the need or desire to do it again and there's been one hell of alot of deer killed between then and now.

C&C for standard calibers with exception of 270 and 25-06 , Partitions for 7mm and 300 win mags and mono bullets for anything faster with warp speed.

I caught a 165gr X out of a 30-06 in a doe pronghorn... They all do funky stuff at times.

Interlokt and coreloks work well on deer for me, although I also use partitions in some rifles that shoot them well without overly destructive results. Shot 2 deer with 120 barnes in a 7-08 and I think they were too penetrative and did not kill any better, dead is dead though.Not a monolith but I would go with the partitions if after heavier game. No longer have that 08.

This is a wholly ignorant post . From someone who's never killed a deer with them.

I can state from direct personal experience that at least two deer I have killed would have been 100% deader had I used Barnes bullets on them. The first, was when I was much younger and the only Barnes available were copper tubing jacketed bullets that I found lacking in accuracy. I shot the deer quartering away. 30-06 180 grain Core-Lokt.. Borrowed rifle. Hit on a rib at about the diaphragm. The bullet slid around under the hide and stopped under the hide in front of the opposite shoulder. Tore up a little muscle on the onside shoulder. The deer would have survived with little problem barring infection or my second shot. It never entered the chest or abdomen. The second was a wounded fawn about 10-12 years ago. Same shot angle. 30-30 with a Hornady LeverEvolution 160 grain. Deflected off the rib and went up through the back strap. Never entered the body. Slid up under the hide. I my years of hunting I have seen deer hit with cup and core bullets that deflected a pretty fair number of times and some, at startling angles. Of the ones that required a second shot (or more) I cannot speculate how many would have not have been dead enough because of the cup and core but I have not seen one shot yet with a Barnes I have loaded that needed a second dose with the exception of a couple-three that were just plain terrible shots. I have seen cup and cores hit the right spot and "blow up", fragment or otherwise fail to penetrate

I have seen a number of cup and core bullets manage surprising deflection off bone. I have never seen a Barnes deflec enough to notet out of a little over 100 that includes caliber from .224 to .451 and velocities from 1000 FPS to almost 3600. Ranges from 25 feet to almost 300 yards. Never have seen any evidence of deconstruction of a Barnes hitting a deer. Never seen any evidence of failure to expand.. That includes original X bullets, XLCs, TSXs, T-EZs and TTSXs. I have used a couple other ML coppers and E-Tips and GMX, but have only killed a single deer with each of them as far as I remember. They have been the most consistent performing bullets of any I have loaded since I started in 1956. The penetration has always amazed me that it is so uniformly straight line. Deflection has been very small when noticeable, and that includes putting a light for caliber bullet through 8 or so inches of bone. The worst I can say I have seen is a 300 WM caused an XLC to shed a petal after going through the teeth on one at 25 feet. The rest of the bullet went through the atlas and brain stem. I have no idea when t shed the petal.

Today's copper bullets are far and away the best I have ever had available for loading. They are very accurate and have never misbehaved in any way for me. I seriously doubt most people would spend more than the price of a 12 pack on using them in a given year. I might spend $30-$60 tuning a load for the average rifle in order to get the load and a box of ammo. Out of some more than fifty rifles I have loaded them for I had a PH 30-06 that fouled with them so badly t took me 4 boxes and some Ultra Bore Coat to get right and a 25-06 that I have half a dozen boxes into trying to get a 100 grain TSX/TTSX load for and still have not succeeded.

I use a 436 grain LBT....for deer....

I tend to use slightly heavy cup-n-core bullets in non-magnum rifles, the .308 being my most-often used cartridge.

To add 2 cents worth, I hate bullets that blow to pieces on any big game animal. As a guide for well over 40 years, I can tell you that every "horror story" I have to tell is involving bad marksmanship and/or bad bullets for the game shot. In many cases it was a case of both at the same time.

But the most common American big game is deer. From White Tails of N.Carolina to Mule Deer of northern Nevada there are some big differences in the size of deer, but they are still deer. I remember seeing an article on the American Rifleman back in the late 60s or early 70s saying that of all
big game killed in the USA that 97% were deer. I have no reason to doubt that's still true.

You don't need "elk bullets" to kill deer.

But the other side of that coin is that elk bullet kill deer too. They just cost more.

In fact, I can assure all readers that you don't NEED super bullets to kill elk either. The cool think about "super bullets' is that they make lighter rifles and calibers kill bigger game batter today than the combinations that were available 40 years ago. In my teens I may not have thought much or using a 257 Roberts or 25-06 on elk, but today I have no problem with them if the bullets are good enough. Such bullets were not common in the 1960s or70s and in many cases were not available at all.

There are few brands and some specific bullets within some brands that are not so good, and some that are so bad I would not take a truck load of them for free if I had to use them on game. But as a rule, what worked in the 1930s works now too.

My understanding is that Remington has gone to thinner jackets on many of their "Core-Lokt" bullets. I hope that's not correct.
(Mule Deer....do you have info on this for us?)

The old Remington CLs from the 60s and 70s were outstanding, in the examples I have used. However I have used their 100 grain 257 10 years ago and found it to be nothing more than a varmint bullets with extremely poor penetration on Antelope does.

Remington really dropped the ball when they stopped selling all their bullets on the hand-loaders market in my opinion. Here is a picture of a 150 grain 270 CL bullet purchased about 1972 next to a new 8MM 200 grain Speer bullet. As you can see the old CL has about 1/2 of it's diameter from jacket and 1/2 from core. In my opinion, all big game bullets should have thick jackets on their shanks with the ogive being drawn thinner and thinner towards the nose.
PA130001 by Steve Zihn, on Flickr

I can say the same for Winchester. I have had excellent results with WW Power Points, but my complaint is that they don't sell all they make except in loaded ammo. In fact, they sell very few.

Most "big game" bullets made by most companies today are made for deer, which comprises about 97% of the "big game" shot every year. There are some that absolutely suck, but many or most are just fine for deer. A huge Nevada Mule Deer is still only the size of yearling elk and a record size deer is the size of a 2 year old cow elk. I believe many hunters over think this issue.

In my experience I have found that a 30 caliber 150 grain bullet at full expansion will often not exit an elk. Too much frontal area and not enough weight to get through 100% of the time. BUT I can also say that 2 seasons ago I, my wife and 2 friends used WW Power point 150 grain bullets on elk and we recovered 3 bullets, 2 of which broke big bones. The worst one still weighs 123 grains, next is a 129 grain and the best weighs 133 grains. Friends, that's as good as a Nosler Partition.
The only thing that would have been better is if I had the 180 grain bullets instead (long story, but the bottom line is we ended up needing the "back up rifle" which was a Mossberg MVP in 308, and the ammo in it was loaded with WW Power Point 150 grains bullets, so that what we all used.) Some bullets exited, so didn't, but I am sure all worked very well.

Last year I killed a bull with 8MM Hornady 170 Gr SSTs. They were OK, but neither one exited the bull and neither one penetrated as well as I'd like. Here is a pic of both bullets cut from the elk. I would have been delighted with them on deer, but they are not what I'd call a perfect elk bullet.
PA110001 by Steve Zihn, on Flickr
Next time I take the 8MM out for elk it's going to have 200 grain Nosler Partitions in it. But the one that came un-glued still went 24" deep. That's going to do all we'd need on deer, and in my rifle they are freakishly accurate. I would not hesitate to use them again on deer and antelope.

Anyway, what I think is the most valuable tool for the hunter today is what is in front of you. The internet. LOTS of BS on it, but also lots of hunters with lots of different experience, and most of them are willing to tell you details if you simply ask.

I have spent 53 years of my life learning what works well, what works "just ok" and what doesn't work well. I have hunted in many places and killed many different kinds of game at many ranges with many guns and many bullets, and all that info is free to any who just ask for it, costing you nothing but the few minutes to ask.

The age of the internet allows a 16 year old hunter to gain a lot of knowledge in 2-3 days that many of us took 40-50 years to learn. Use it. Ask!

I am sure I am not the only one here that agrees on this point. Mule Deer is a wonderful source of info too, as are several members here and on other sites.

Remember...... A Normal person will learn from their mistakes, but a wise person learns from the mistakes of others.
You don't need to make those mistakes yourself. You have an advantage today that was never available in history.

Fools will not learn at all.
We are happy to tell you from our own mistakes

Good post. I can say I've learned a lot on this site over the years and am very thankful for everybody who takes the time to share their experience.

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Excellent post!

Thanks ARNS9

I use Nosler Ballistic Tips on the small to medium sized central Texas deer, and I used them on the much larger Louisiana deer. It's all the bullet I need, and I've used it at least 100 deer. Used the old Nosler SBBT prior to that and killed about as many with it in my 270. If I thought I needed a better bullet, I'd switch. Also, I never had any problems with the first generation Ballistic Tips.

Extremely good accuracy with the Ballistic Tip is normal.

I get pass thru on deer most every time (I'm a lung shooter), though a big hog will stop 100 grainers in my 260. I get more pig exits with the 120 grainer in the 260, and usually exits with the 130 grainer in the 270. Obviously, shot placement is important.

I can't argue that the Accubond isn't a better bullet. It may well be, but I'm doing just fine with the Ballistic Tip.

There is nothing wrong with using a good premium bullet on deer. Things don't always go like we want when hunting and shooting. There is also nothing wrong with having a bullet exit. 2 holes is a good thing if you want to find what you shoot.

Ye, Mule Deer is a great source of information. With respect to that, and your opinions expressed on the "Berger bullets" thread, why don't you ask him his opinion of them for killing elk?

That's awesome!

I think you've hit the nail on the head there, pardner. I'm wholly lacking in any experience with Barnes products. Somehow the deer seem to fall over dead at our camp in spite of that deficiency, and I'm wondering what I'm missing.

So "Exactly what improvements would we expect if we went to Barnes? How much deader would the deer be?

For me, there is the matter of quality-of-deadness"


I am curious to hear the answer to this as well. Not a knock on the TSX, just curious how they kill a deer deader than say an Interlock?

Every bullet manufacturer for the past 60 years has compared their best bullets to a Nosler partition for good reason.

Amen to that!

for killing deer with smaller head stamps like 6.8spc and 5.56 I see an advantage to punching through the shoulders with barnes bullets and they work great... I reload for both of these cartridges and I kill deer with them. The biggest 10 point of my life's head is just over my computer as I type, shot once in the shoulder with a 62 grain TSX, dime sized hole coming out and he ran about 25 yards. I killed him with a Colt 6720. When you get to 243/257 power levels I just don't see a need for solid copper slugs unless you eat shoulders or neck. Of course I have not shot many deer over the last 40 or so years..

What the should the ballistics be for a 130 grain Barnes 308 load? Need to sight in my 308, thinking 2"high at 100 should put me head on at 250yds?

PA130001 by Steve Zihn, on Flickr



I'm curious if the lead core of those two bullets are of equal hardness/toughness. If, for instance, the Speer has a tougher lead core, then that could compensate to a degree for a thinner jacket.

Which bullet would you think most closely emulates or duplicates the Partition?

Not JG, but from the animals and cartridges I've used the Accubond is just a little sleeker Partition. They will get stuck in the far side a little more but they expand a little wider too. I pick whichever shoots best in my rifle. They are both staples for me.

I'm ready for Zombie deer.

Harder expanding bullets on deer is a step in the wrong direction.....

Agreed beretz. I am very impressed with accubond bullets too.

Over bulleting?

Maybe its using cup and core bullet 50-150 grs. more and jumping up calibers to do the work a little mono does with less powder, more velocity is the definition of "over bulleting".

Ive stated a few times Id take a 22 CF over our required big fat shotguns here any day of the week.

One could translate that as trading a 22 for a 30 caliber deer rifle.

Id bet a sugar cookie the price of a 223 loaded with a Barnes is cheaper than a 308 with a Power Point or whatever....

Scenars have a thin jacket. but are tougher than Bergers, kill with authority.

Check out Pat (Scenarshooter) and the list of photos of Scenar killed critters he's posted over the years. (Hope he wasn't using Photobucket).

So, the hardness of the alloy is a big deal.

DF

I ddn't state my question well enough, but basically in .308 going from 165gr. C&C's to similar weight mono's and seeing them used primarily for much larger critters. the suggstions in this thread to go down in weight and up in velicity with the mono's is golden. I'm gonna do that just gotta find a load

Barnes has a very good load data section on their web site.

DF

Go as light as they make and fling them like a varmint load then.

For deer sized stuff going to smaller calibers at higher velocities gives one pause towards "overbulleting".

People were debating similar things 100 years ago; the old ways worked, but so did the new ones, with some advantages.

I guess it isnt as much for the OP as it is for the modern day cup and core, traditional deer cartridge fan.

i used to think bigger the bullet.now i have changed.use smaller caliber,faster speed .anyways shot place kills. 220 swift will kill anything.now this will start a agreement.fast bullet small grain.

What's over bulleting... Light and fast $2 a pop or simple heavy cup and core?

Yes

SSTs will definitely do that!

I'm using 150 SuperPerformance SST in my .30-06 on caribou. (Going to try GMX this season, just for grins)

Factory Corelokts (which I was using for caribou before switching to SP for flatter trajectory) and Interlocks are fine also. Premiums for deer are a needless expense. Premiums for most shots at any game are a needless expense in most cases, IMO, but that's just me.

The two places I will still consider a premiumin my own shooting life is if it shoots significantly better than C&C in that rifle, or if the caliber is a bit on the light side for intended game. For example, a .260 on moose or elk, tho that 140 Corelokt did a DRT on the only elk I have ever shot, and I'd use it in a heartbeat with no worries on a moose. And hope to.

SSTs will definitely do that!

I'm using 150 SuperPerformance SST in my .30-06 on caribou. (Going to try GMX this season, just for grins)

Factory Corelokts (which I was using for caribou before switching to SP for flatter trajectory) and Interlocks are fine also. Premiums for deer are a needless expense. Premiums for most shots at any game are a needless expense in most cases, IMO, but that's just me.

The two places I will still consider a premium in my own shooting life is if it shoots significantly better than C&C in that rifle, or if the caliber is a bit on the light side for intended game. For example, a .260 on moose or elk, tho that 140 Corelokt did a DRT on the only elk I have ever shot, and I'd use it in a heartbeat with no worries on a moose. And hope to.

There is a third reason for using premiums, and that is if you want to. Hence the GMX above....

Maybe 35-40 years ago, a buddy decided to scrap the 100gr Sierras he was using and went to a Nosler Partition in his BDL 25-06. Can't recall now if it was a 115 or 117gr version?

He shot a decent buck for the time, early on opening morning. Buck went down, he was happy. Buck got back up again within seconds, ran off down the mountain and someone else nailed it. Went down to figure out what had happened. Near's he cold sort out, his shot had gone straight through, hit no vitals.

First and last experience with a Partition on our smallish white tails, for him.

Many years later, lent my M700 25-06 to another friend, so his wife could use it on an Idaho black bear hunt. He decided she needed more rifle than her 243, despite her having killed bears in PA and Canada with it. So he loaded up Partitions for her to use in my 25-06. She hit a bear three times, bear continued on its way. Cowboy guide finished it off for her with his rifle. When they skint the bear, all three of her shots were pass throughs.

I've heard lots of good experiences with Partitions over the years, in one cartridge or another. For PA whitetails and my 25-06s, I prefer a Nosler Btip in their 100gr offering. Ain't lost one yet, most keeled over where they'd stood or walked, when hit.

So is it over kill to shoot a deer with a rifle that is over bulleted, over scoped and over stocked? And will that bullet over penetrate if it's over stabilized?

Yes to all. And not only that, the deer will be overly dead.

Where do you reckon that lead came from before it ended up in that copper jacket?

From his birth planet, uranus.

Unless its a matter of running 100 yards and its in the neighbors in a few seconds and they shoot it again, to claim it, then bullets above noted are not hitting vitals.

if thats the case, MZ shooters of old and new with simple round balls could never kill anything as their bullets never exploded into the deer....

3 shots on the bear evidently were not where they should have been. And one shot on the deer was not where it should have been. Pretty simple actually. I'd hunt deer with a 22lr if it was legal, they are not hard to kill. I kill feral hogs with a 22 all the time, these up to around 250 ish pounds so far....

I see your point and personally I don't worry about the small amount of lead from the bullets I shoot. Lots of that is caught in the berms at the local range. And the amount that goes into the environment from hunting is miniscule.

But to answer your question, the lead originally came from a lead mine. Many of which were abandoned and were/are environmental disasters. Some ended up on the Superfund list, and many still aren't cleaned up. The ones that have been cleaned up have cost a lot of money.

Along with lead smelters and battery recyclers (also "where lead comes from"), lots of problems caused by lead contamination in the environment, and some of those ended up on the Superfund list too..

I came to the dance late, and went back to the first page to see where it started. When talking of pigs as big and tough, my go to pig gun is a 1950 Savage model R in 250 with a 2-7 Redfield. On our first pig hunt the guide said he used a 243 for pigs and with the smaller bullet, he just shot them in the head. He said you can't miss, it's the size of a watermelon. My first was a 220 pounder, shot behind the left ear, bang-flop. The second was 150, shot in the left eye, bang-flop. I use factory Remington 100gr CL. As it's been said, if the bullet goes where it's supposed to, game over, Joe.

A friend tried some of the German rws tug bullets out of a 7x57. Basically worked like a full metal jacket. 3 shots to the heart lung area and a lot of chasing around he finally had his deer. I wouldn't try it again unless I was starving . Way too much bullet for deer. On the other hand I had some 130 gr corelock 270 bullets and after shooting 3 deer with them I decided forget it as they seemed to be coming apart.. It must have been the batch of bullets as I had always had good luck with c-l bullets in my other calibers and thousands if not millions of deerhave been killed with them so go figure.

If you have a 375 H&H laying around and a box of 220 grain Hornady flat nose bullets.
Try loading them to around 2,200 fps . You won't have to look very far to find your deer.
That is a good thing if you have timber wolves cruising around.

I like this ^^

My wimpy bullets have no trouble killing deer, I just can't get through through 600 yards of cold air.

A 140 gr Nos Bal Tip 7mm bullet at 3400 fps requires less skill from me to hit the deer.


I hunt with guys who think they need partition bullets for deer. I ask them, "How deep is a partition designed to penetrate? How thick is a deer?"

I would make the switch to a premium lead/copper bullet...ie nosler partition....if you go with TTSX step down in weight.

To the original dilemma: I don't think there is a perfect dual deer/hog bullet, because deer are soft, and hogs are tough. There are many compromise bullets that will kill both, but neither as good as two different bullets. It's just that simple. The likely best compromise would be something like a Partition, that has a soft front end and a hard rear. But I've shot partitions through deer, and while they work just fine, they are less dramatic than other softer bullets, in my experience. I'd not bother with copper monos unless I was hunting dangerous game. The lead alloy monos I shoot also work quite well for deer-sized game (and bigger), and at a fraction of a fraction of the price for copper bullets.

A medium/heavy for caliber cup-core kept at 2,800fps or less seems to generally perform close to perfectly, at least in my experience, when shooting hogs and deer. Ones that come to mind are the 168gr .30cal NBT and the 160gr 7mm NAB. They still dig pretty deep but disrupt a fair bit of tissue along the way. I'd also not be afraid of plain old Interlocks in those calibers/weights. But overall, it is indeed true that no bullet is the perfect choice all the time. A really good choice most of the time is about the best you can hope for.

The last lead mine that I was in opened in 1520. Still in production.
MM879