From the Ohio Hunting Regulations Webpage, new this year, the requirements for what consitutes a legal deer rifle:



Given those specs, what deer rifle would you choose?

Iowa just did the same. I am going with a .45-70. Probably with the Hornady ammo but if it doesn't shoot well, the 300 grain Winchester HP has always shot well, just not quite as flat as the Hornady load

.405 Winchester simply because of the flatter trajectory with the 300 gr Hornady SP when compared to the 45-70, 444 Marlin & similar cartridges.

I went with the .450BUSHMASTER in an AR-15 this change was overdue at least a year.
(As per the discussion I had with ODNR directly, it was changed as of the 13th of may or June, and should read .350-.50 straight wall and tapered wall cartridges.) I would suggest double checking with ODNR before deciding on your choice.

I use a Henry 45-70 with Barnes 300gr and H4198.
But I use to use an 870 with Rem copper solids. The gun would shoot one hole groups at 50yrds. Shot a lot of deer with that gun. I kick myself in the ass for selling the barrel after I bought the 45-70.
With today's shotgun sabot slugs it's just like shooting a high powered rifle

I hunt Ohio gun season every year and have had good success with various 45-70 rifles but this year I bought a BLR Takedown in .450 Marlin.......But for killing power and ammo availabilty I would recommend a 45-70 as your best overall choice of cartridge ......Good luck.....Hb

I hunt Ohio with my brother & nephews every year. I've got a Marlin 444 & an 870. Killed 4 deer with slugs in 5 years. Maybe this year I go with the 444.

.357 maximum

I have not hunted in Ohio this century, but I grew up a Buckeye, and did my first 20 years of deer hunting there. This is a good step forward. They've gone 3 years under the previous rule with no impact to the herd and no circular firing squad among the hunters. One of these days, they'll finally figure it out and do it right like KY and IN with no restrictions on centerfire rifles.

I started this thread partially out of nostalgia and partly out of curiousity.

So far, nobody has said 44 Magnum. I find that interesting.

357 Max seems like a good idea, but who's making a rifle chambered in it?

If I was going out tomorrow and looking for something off-the-shelf, I'd probably go with a 45-70. However, I'd want to pick a load that did not punish my shoulder.

You'd think the gun mfgs would have responded better to this. Ohio has had this straightwall thing cooking for years. Indiana had its flirt with PCR's and now Iowa is relaxing its rules. I'm sure the demand is there.


Here's a thought:

Indiana had the 35 Hoosier, a modified 35 Rem built to conform to Indiana's now-defunct PCR rules. As I remember, the 35 Hoosier was a 35 REM trimmed short. What kind of wildcat could be cooked up to fulfil the 35 Buckeye slot?

I double checked with ODNR, and found they did raise the lower limit to .357 in print, from the .350 they told me verbally.

Tc contender or encore are the only ones to know of.
I did the .44 mag thing but was honestly much more impressed with the .357 max

Awesome glad to see some get ahead.

I hunt in Ohio every year for the last 25 years or so. Since the change to the regs I have been using a Marlin lever in .444. It kills them pretty dead. Its a lot of firepower for the 20-30 yard shots I normally have in Wayne Nat Forest. I have a ruger 44 carbine I have scoped up and I am considering using it this year. I am hoping the recent change next door in Indiana allowing all calibers will help get the regs changed soon in Ohio. Many said blood would run in the streets even with the straitwall change. Never happened. I was born and raised in Ohio and I find they have a lot of hangups and regs you dont run into in other states. I would love to hunt there with my 7mm08. Hopeful I will see the day I can.
Seems most of the guys I know of that are buying rifles are buying 45-70s likely for convience of finding the rifles and ammo selection.
I love shooting my .444 but its a bazzuka for what I do there.

I made a pilgrimage to Fin Feather Fur up in Ashland, OH last month. Unlike the gun stores down around Cincy, they seemed a bit more responsive to the change. What I saw were a large section of their rack filled with Henry lever actions in 45-70. I suppose that is one of the few really good alternatives in a repeating firearm.

I just find it odd that when you look at the new rule there are not a whole lot of current production rifles and chamberings that come to mind, and next to nothing from the normal big names. You'd think by now one of the mfgs with some clout would have brought out "The Buckeye Series" or some such.

I don't want to throw mud at the 357 Maximum, but I'm thinking more of a good thing might be in order. Adding another 0.1" to the round, make it rimless and call it the 35 Buckeye. Another easy one might be a stout .410-ish round in a rifled barrel and call it the .400 Buckeye. There are a bunch of actions that I'd be happy with. If I had to close my eyes and envision what I'd want in my hands on the Ohio Opener, it would probably be:

1) A Ruger All-Weather Hawkeye
2) A Remington 7600
3) A Browning BLR

I also don't want to throw mud at all the current offerings out there. My point is to expand the options.

In regards to the 44 Mag: Look, I only own 1 pistol in 44 Mag. That does not make me much of an expert. I have fought with the idea of a 44 Mag deer rifle for more than a decade. What keeps me from embracing it is the 30-30. I own a 30-30. I've hunted with it. I've taken deer with it. I'm not all that impressed. The last thing I want is something that's "just like a 30-30 out to 80 yards."

We hunt in Southern ohio hills where you cant see past 50 yards .
There my ideal pick would be a lighter weight rifle that was easy to carry in and was fast handling as the deer there run up on you pretty quick. One minute your about to fall asleep a second later theres a deer coming over the ridge 20 yards from you. I dont particulary like lever actions ( although they work great) so I would pick a bolt. Semi auto would work great as well. Just not my thing. 30-30 would be a step up as far as im concerned for an appropriate rifle for there compared to my .444. I killed a lot of hogs down in FLA my first few years hunting down there. I paid $125 for my 30-30 Marlin lever 336cs and ammo was cheap and just what a guy starting up needed. But to be honest after I got a ruger M77 tanger in 30-06 In about 1989 I haven't hunted with the 30-30 since. I would hang up my .444 in a heartbeat it Ohio added just the 30-30 to the list .

NEF Handi-rifles and CVA Scout's in 357 can be easily rechambered.

I shoot a .44mag and a .45-70. Haven't shot a deer with the .45-70 yet but I should get the chance this year.
-Jake

What about the 375 Winchester?


Okie John

The .375 Winchester has been on the ODNR list of approved straight walled cartridges prior to the 2017 change that permits any straight walled cartridge of .357 caliber minimum to .50 maximum & should work just fine.

The only issue with the .375 Winchester is the limited availability of ammunition & components & rifles chambered for it. I would love to find a reasonably priced Savage 99 in .375 Winchester for Ohio use & addition to my Ruger #1 .405 Winchester.

An RAR in .450 Bushmaster would be my ideal pick. The 16" threaded barrel with a suppressor would be the cats a$$. I built up an AR in .450 last year and it's a nice shooting accurate rifle. A bit heavy though. A local gun shop sell them set up with a CDS equipped Leupold and they do some impressive shooting out to 300 yds. Go to 4:53 on the video.

http://www.walshgunandtackle.com/product.sale-16-450-upper-wmag-michigan-outdoor-news-special-2070

I will pick up a 5.56 at a later time, to swap out as needed.

I got the 20" version when Cabelas had them on sale last year. Would rather had the shorter 16" but I pulled the flash hider to shorten it up a couple inches. I picked up a 5.56 upper from PSA to swap out, but then built up another lower when Cabelas put Anderson lowers on sale for $50.

.375 Win. Yum.

The Savage 99 would be great.

However, this all rear-view-mirror stuff. There are Win 94's out there and a few Marlins, but no current production. The other problem I see is the ammo. Unless you're loading your own and casting your own, the ammo that's out there is more fit for a moose than a whitetail. Most of the factory bullets are for 375 H&H and they're meant for big stuff and dangerous game.

That's the other thing I see with these Ohio regs: If you transpose it onto the list of what's really out there, the choices of available ammo are mostly all shoulder busters. I'm no wimp, but 3 rounds of full-house 45-70 factory ammo usually is the highlight of my afternoon. Most of the others leave a serous mark as well.

375 WIN is better in that regard. In fact, recoil-wise, it's getting right in folks' comfort zone. I'm hunting 10 miles from the Ohio River on the south side. We get to fling everything we want at the little critters. Gimme a nice 30-06 any old day. 375 WIN has about the same punch.

Recoil on the .450BUSHMASTER is not bad. About the same as a .20ga shotgun. Only issue I had while sighting in the AR, was the bipod bit my forward hand a little bit. A glove will solve that.

(There is a guy claiming 400yard range shots on bowling pins is an all day easy shot with this round in an AR, and a measured 9" of penetration in Aspen when he misses.)

My nephew bought a dandy farm south of Dayton and has issued an invitation to a couple of us to join him for deer hunting this fall. I stumbled onto another small Martini that ought to be chambered for .357 or .357 Max (if it'll make the bend into the chamber) for the occasion, but I don't know if I can pull it off in time. Probably just use my Ohio-style Vincent rifle, .45 patched round ball shooter. Besides, it would be fitting.

I too dislike the thought of using full strength .45-70 rounds or their close cousins to whack a 100 pound whitetail. I dislike even more the thought of bruising range sessions with such a beast. Were it me, I would down-load said .45-70 with 250-300 grain bullets to around 1600 fps (or less) for a perfectly suitable round for killing itty bitty deer across a small cornfield.

When will American hunters learn that more is less?

More isn't less when you are trying to get trajectory flat enough for 200 yd shots out of a straight walled case that falls within ODNR regulations. I agree that most shots are at < than 100 yds but I hate to pass up 200 yd shots at nice bucks that are out around 200 yds in the crop field edges & I have passed up several when using a rifled bbl shotgun or muzzle loader w/sabots.

I don't find the recoil of the 45-70, 444 Marlin, 405 Winchester class rifles any more objectionable than a 12 ga shotgun w/ slugs or sabots.

Last buck We took topped my game scale at more than 300lbs. (His head was still on the ground.) Sorry if they ain't very big, but that's Ohio for ya

Shotguner:

That's good to hear. I've not tried 450 Bushmaster yet, but I've shot 458 SOCOM-- very comfortable out of a semi auto.

Kellory:
We get those occasionally on this side of the river as well. At 300 lbs, you get a real "Quint, we're going to need a bigger boat!" kind of feeling.

On the cheap, it would be a Ruger American bolt gun in 450 Bushmaster. Money no object, it would likely be a Winchester Big Bore 94 in 375 Winchester.

Frontal area has a quality all its own, and a 240-grain cast bullet will penetrate for days. The problem is that it runs out of trajectory before it runs out of punch.


Okie John

Which is exactly what ODNR wants. Slow fat bullets, not small fast bullets.

I never had much respect for the .44 mag rifle.............until I used one. The last three bucks taken on my property were with a Ruger 96/44 using plain 'ol WW 240 gr hollow points. Two were broadside behind the shoulder shots, in and out, 50 yd death run with lots of blood. The third was an 80 yd quartering to shot that entered the onside shoulder and stopped under the skin just ahead of the off side rear leg. The bullet was a cover photo worthy mushroom. I have more respect for the 44 now, but will give the .450 a try this year and expect even better performance, although three bullets three deer is hard to improve upon.

Careful. I'm not sure MLs are legal during the rifle season like in most places. Not gospel, but what someone told me.

EDIT: Nevermind. Just checked; you're good to go.

EABCO sells .375 brass made from .30/30, probably with hydraulic forming of some sort. It is a bit short, so crimping could be tricky (so they say).

$59.95 per 50.

In a perfect world, I'd work toward a .375 Winchester. In the real world, I'd get a 44 Magnum long gun and work up a fast load using a 240-grain cast LFN. Not sure what make or model, but probably a Marlin lever gun or a Ruger bolt action if I could get one that groups. Other contenders are a Ruger #3 or a Remington 788, but that's moving back toward a perfect world again.


Okie John

Well, I'm at the point in my life when I don't give a rat's patoot if I have to pass on a shot beyond my effective/comfortable max distance, even if said distance is only a "measly" 100 yards away. Happens to me every year at least once and invariably I walk out of the field whistling a happy tune. It ain't just about the killing anymore for me.

As for recoil of those heavies being no worse than a 12 gauge with slugs, well, I rest my case. Who in their right mind has fun spending multiple range sessions firing multiple boxes of slugs to gain a modicum of skill with the gun, and whom of those folks can look me in the eye and honestly swear he hasn't developed a flinch to one degree or another, bruised the dickens out his shoulder, and/or contributed mightily toward eventual arthritis/nerve damage? Those who can may be tough SOB's, but they're still foolish IMO.

gnoahhh,

You sound like a man that knows his limitations & I can respect that.

For the rest of us who hunt Ohio we thankfully now have a few more options that let us take advantage of equipment selection & shooting ability & I don't think that it is foolish to be prepared for the longest shot you are comfortable in taking with the expectation of a clean kill.

For me, the ODNR rule change moved my limit from 150 yds to 200 yds. & depending on where & how you hunt, that may or may not be a big deal.

I should be able to do 200 with my Knight, but wouldn't try it until I can try it on paper. Longest shot fom my current stand is 158, according to Google Earth.

BH209 factory data shows bullets in the 290-300gr range at around 2100fps with 120gr (vol) or 84gr (by weight).

Question is, how's that gonna feel on my end of the 7lb rifle?

Wonder if they consider a 9.3x74 a straight-wall case?

Here! Here! Folks keep saying they don't care. The truth is they just ain't thinking ahead. I was an Ohio Buckeye hunter for my first twenty seasons or so. There is truth in what you're saying.

My shoulder probably went from practicing for bow hunting, but shoulder busting shotguns and rifles did not help it any. I'm on the south side of Sixty, and I'm already having to ration my bench time. I had to give up archery in 2007 due to a bum shoulder.

I'm working my way back down from early life as a recoil hound. Right now 30-06 from a well-fitted rifle is about as much as I want to handle. I've re-purposed my 35 Whelen for cast lead and it shoots well now at 35 Rem levels.

Honestly, I should have seen this coming. At 42, I touched off a 3" load of #4's at an Ohio gobbler in April, and I was still feeling it in my shoulder on Labor Day. If I don't watch myself, I'm feeling sighting-in in September clear until the Super Bowl. I've got a twinge now from my reloading session last weekend. The question in my mind is not about immediate pain or even the stiffness I might feel for the next week. The problem now is the cumulative effect.

And therein lies my beef with fish&game dept.'s that rule in favor of shotguns/muzzle loaders only for deer in highly populated or flat country, such as the eastern half of Maryland. Such impressive performance as you describe Pappy overshadows Ye Olde .30-30 yet is considered "safer" than such. Said regulations were instituted by well meaning Natural Resource boffins a couple generations ago, and not altogether wrong in doing so. Little did they imagine the ingenuity of man when it comes to arms races- and now we see the results. Small wonder I do all my hunting in western Maryland where such regs don't exist.

Ohio did well to change up. I'm glad for all the folks out there who may now employ better weaponry. But I still wonder which is worse- a 400grain .45 caliber bullet crashing through my picture window, or a 150 grain .30 caliber? Seems kinda arbitrary and based on fake science, but I'm willing to listen to their reasoning.

Actually there was no science involved, and when science (of a sort) did get applied, the lighter bullet was judged as safe or safer. I discussed it here:

Shotgun vs. Rifle

Just be happy they are moving in the right direction.
Here in Indiana we had to go through baby steps until we got the nod for .243 cal and up cf's.
It was a slow process and they can only be used on private property but none the less we are finally here in the 21st century.
Just be patient yet persistent with your cf efforts and it will be rewarded.

As for felt recoil, shotgun vs. Rifle, we Ohioans have never had the opportunity to shoot the lighter kicking rifles, (other than squirrel hunting) so shotgun thump is what we know. We do not develop a flinch, because it's NORMAL for us. Changing over to the lighter kicking rifles, will seem odd. Any young teen here can handle a .20ga, and most prefer a .12ga.

ALL straight wall, or tapered wall, from .375 to .50 are now Ohio legal. No neckdown cartridges.

Correction for typo .357 to .50.

Pappy,

The 9.3 x 74 R would make a nice Ohio deer rifle but will not qualify since it has a definite shoulder. Ballistics are similar to a .405 Winchester (300 gr bullet @ 2200 vs 286 gr @ 2350) so recoil will also be similar in guns of the same weight as will the .45 70 w/300 gr. bullets.

My Ruger #1 .405 weighs 9 1/4 lbs w scope. Recoil isn't bad at all but it's definitely going to be used mostly as a stand rifle due to the weight. I would like to have a lighter rifle in a .375 Winchester for still hunting but I don't do much of that any more & I've got several slug guns with rifled bbls that work very well in that role so its mostly a "want" rather than a "need" on the .375 Winchester.

I have shot my .50 Knight @ 200 yds on paper w/ the Barnes 250 gr expander & 150 gr 777 & drop is about 8" from a zero of 2 1/2" high @ 100 yds . I don't feel comfortable with that combination past 150 yds. because of the difficulty of estimating range & holdover in actual hunting conditions.

I was one of the folks who worked/lobbied with the ODNR to expand the list of calibers. This was for a purely selfish reason. I want to use my drilling with the rifle tube chambered in 9.3x72R to hunt my land. Now I can.
I have taken a doe with another drilling using a 16 ga. slug. She took two leaps and dropped. Last season I used a Marlin in 444 and had to track a short 50 yards. Both were lung shots. Both rounds went through. I figure the 16ga left a bigger hole and thus the quicker drop.
All my hunting is on my land and shots are 50 yards or so. Never more as brush and trees make it impossible.
Previous years my hunting was always with a 12ga. slug gun.
The folks at ODNR are true professionals and a real pleasure to work with. For those of you in Ohio I encourage you to attend one of their open houses and get involved.

Mikev is talking about the 9.3 x 72 R which is straight walled & should qualify under the ODNR rules. I don't think the 9.3 x74 R will.

I've got an 1886 in .45-90 that would fit the bill. With a full charge and the Hornady monoflex MPBR is about 240y. Falls off the face of the earth after that though. Pleasant to shoot but heavy.

Normal soft points in a .405W would be the bees knees.

Oops!

I deleted my post to avoid confusion.

I picked the wrong cartridge.


Here's the right pic:



That looks like a decent choice.

An old Marlin 1894 carbine in 357 mag with Hornady's 140 gr FTX LEVERevolution would be nice.

Who needs a 450 anything to kill deer?

I do. Some of us can not afford a different rifle for every day of the month. The .450BUSHMASTER was designed from the get-go for ALL large game in North America, predator or prey. And with the AR platform, if and when I need a squirrel round or longer range, it's just a change of upper, (optics attached) and ready to go as a new rifle.

He didn't ask about the AR platform, he asked about the .450

I'm aware of that. It fit best with what I require, to conform to my state's laws, my needs large and small, and is adaptable as needed.

You're right about the shoulder; never looked closely before. I mentioned it because there are some bargain-priced Number 1s out there. There are also some .405 Ruger and Winchesters, a bit much under full steam, but that's why we handload.

Besides old Number 3s, EABCO will build one of their 97s in .375W, but they sure think highly of them these days! In one fell swoop, the price jumped way over my interest level. Encores and Contenders will handle it too but I just have a hard time with their looks and feel.

All this is academic for me as WV and VA are still solidly in the rifle camp, where I hunt anyway. My cousin has a great opportunity on some Ohio property, but he bought a Browning A-bolt slug gun.

It's amazing how fqukked up those northern states are. You can't use a 30/30 on deer but you can use a 50BMG for coyotes.

I can use ANY rifle or shotgun on squirrel, but can't use the same gun in the same woods for deer. True.
I asked ODNR. Why.
"Squirrel is not very popular any more, so very little chance of any shot hitting another hunter. But when deer-gun opens, EVERY guy who ever called himself a hunter, is in the woods with you. Much higher chance of an accident, so shorter range weapons are preferred."

I always figured it wasn't the weapon as much as the numbers. One guy with a 243 hunting coyotes it no big deal but 35,000 guys hunting with 243s on opening day might be an issue. Only thing that makes sense to me, otherwise I do not understand the laws point whatsoever.

Not to say anyone gave it any reasoning to begin with. Reasoning never stopped a lawmaker.

You could have just typed 'Yankees'

Naw, I don't bother with baseball....

Being from Ohio I will try to explain THEIR logic.

Most of Ohio is flat. The SE part gets hilly but nothing big. Something like 70% of the state is fairly flat thanks to the last ice age. That is their concern number one, bullets can travel long distances more easily in their minds.

Ohio is a small state. Our square mileage is not large, but we are the 5th or 6th most populous state in the nation. This means a lot of people in a small space.

We grow BIG deer here. People from all over the nation hunt in Ohio for our 7 day season. Since we only have a seven day season (for some damn reason) the woods are typically crowded during gun season.


If Ohio were to legalize all rifle cartridges, I think they should expand the season to three weeks similar to Indiana (exact same issues above) so people had more options when to hunt rather than be forced into a single week. Michigan has similar issues but the state has a dividing line for the northern half of the mitten and the UP. Ohio could do the same in the SE part where there are more hills and less population density.

I don't mean this to disagree with you, but I've also seen recent posts on the subject where the poster claimed the reason why there are the current regulations is that the deer are too small and the land is too hilly. My point is that no one can really agree on why the regs are there.

I have to agree with the woods being crowded. I hunted Eagle Creek WMA back in 2000, and the Opener was shrowded in fog. About 1000, the fog lifted and for miles around all you could see were little orange hats glinting in the sunlight like fireflies.

In regards to season length: it goes Monday to Sunday and then opens back up for two days on the next Saturday.

Still don't make sense that I can hunt the flat land and shoot coyotes with a 50BMG, but I can't hunt deer with a 30/30.

Correct. Season was shortened this past season due to lower herd size reported. Rifle regs came from pistol regs originally. (I know this because I asked ODNR in person.) Originally, if a approved hunting handgun had a matching rifle version, the rifle was also approved. However, there are more acceptable rifles, than handguns, so many rifles were not approved, even though they fit all other requirements. This of course led to confusion, tickets, and a whole lot of "what the heck is going on?".
However, EVERY step forward is fought tooth and nail by all sorts of groups claiming the woods will run with human blood, bambie-Thumpers claiming that that is what SHOULD happen, drone drivers driving off game and filming hunts, or dive bombing hunters, legal-beagles looking for lawsuits, and public outcry from vegans, and anti-hunters.
So getting THIS MUCH is a victory in itself. We had farmers protesting Sunday hunting, and I have SEEN IN USE blankets for covering stock that read in 3' high orange letters "COW" "PIG" "SHEEP" and "HORSE".
A few years ago, they added .454 Marlin to the approved list, and they were scheduled to add .450BUSHMASTER and .50 Beowulf last year. This change did not happen on time, and I had built my AR-15 .450BUSHMASTER In anticipation of the change. So I am rather glad to have a chance to use it in my home state.
Per ODNR, they would like to see ALL rifles included, and as long as there are no rifle related deaths, they intend to try for that Mark. Any mistakes, deaths, or major stupidity, will set that goal back.
Personally, I'm more interested in repealing the "no second weapon" rule. It's stupid, defies common sense, proper safety, and infringes 2A. (Nothing about a legal Privlege , should ever Take precedence over a Right.

It doesn't, but then the Ohio rules have never been based in objective reality. Where they do make sense is a lot of Ohioans think there should be no deer hunting. The shotgun-only rules come from a time when NY first instituted its first modern season, and from all reports it really was a circular firing squad.

However, Hunter Orange and Hunter Ed took care of all that. Folks are no longer able to wear their brown Carharts with a white handkerchief hanging out of their pocket without an orange hat. Hunter Ed teaches things like:

1) Don't shoot into bushes
2) Don't hunt sounds
3) Don't shoot at skylit deer
4) Don't shoot your buddy because he made fun of your orange hat.

Once you get those things figured out, hunting is fairly safe.


"This is 911."

"I've shot my buddy and he's dead."

"Okay, relax. We'll take care of you. Give us some details."

"I thought he was a deer and I shot him."

"Are you sure he's dead?"

"What do you mean?"

"Make sure he's not still breathing."

"Okay." Long Pause "BANG!" Long Pause. "Yep, he's dead."




.