Spent a few hours on the phone with an old VN buddy in the middle
of the night last night, then Saw the recovery of two downed
fliers on the news this morning, it all came rushing back.

Dead and wounded being carried into your chopper while you fire
covering fire into the tree line, smell the burnt powder & hot
brass smell of the M-60 mixed with JP-4 from the turbine exhaust
and sun heated metal around you. Sweat of fear mingled in. Then
you take off and the prop wash and wind generated by flight
turns blood into a fine mist inside that sticks to your skin and
fatigues like paint overspray, very sticky. You can't hear the
moans and screams over the beat of the rotors or through your
helmet and earphones. You can see the writhing of pain or the
limp movement of the dead wrapped in poncho's. You can smell
the sharp coppery smell of blood mixed with urine and feces
though. And the floor gets pretty slippery sometimes.

The ground crews later use steam jennies or pressure hoses to
clean out the bird, but some how the smells are still there for
you, you wash up with tons of soap, but you still feel sticky
sometimes, in the middle of the night. You get up in the morning
or even in the night to do it again and again, because it's your
job, they are your brothers, they need you.

It's not about noble causes, it's about stayin' alive and surviving
one more day, one more day closer to returning to the world.

The real face of war is the reason real warriors hate war and
Pray for peace!

All you armchair commando's need to see what I have seen.

T LEE, OUT

Unbelievable post, T. Superb.

I support GWB 100% and believe that this is a right and just action. But seeing the pictures of the POW and dead Americans, and the faces of the two pilots last night was excruciating.

God bless them, their families, and also the casualties to come. You're right. This is no John Wayne movie! We need to lift up our American heroes.

Rick

I did not even get through the whole news clip when it hit. That stuff has been gone from my conciousnes for over 30 years, and bang, it was right there. I mean it was like I was at base camp after finishing a dust off, even the sounds and smells. Now my son tells me that the woman they captured the other day, Iraqi TV has been showing a video tape of her being gang raped and then having her throat cut. I truly hope and Pray that is just a rumor.

I don't care what we have to do to stop this thing, I just want to see it done and ended. Any means necessary and the hell with the rest of the world!

Nobody can really understand the 1000 yard stare or any of the other manifestations caused by combat till they been there. You can see it, but still not fully understand, it is too personal and arrives on a primal level few ever experiance. This, like any other fight is not a John Wayne movie like you said Rick. These people will carry baggage the rest of their lives as some of us still do, it remains hidden in our subconscious most of the time, but it is always there to sneak up on you in the night.

I am one of the lucky ones, I have had a productive and rewarding life, a wonderful and loving wife and two great children. Also many true friends and fellow vets that I can talk to and purge some of those feelings.


There are many other memories that come in the night to haunt some of us, the lucky ones, like me have support. I only can hope and Pray that these fine folks can share my good fortune this way.

Roger that T LEE The only thing worse than war is living in slavery under a barbaric tyrant. "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Freedom is not free as you obviously know. A few words on Viet Nam-Despite incredibly bungled micro-management by the Johnson-McNamara bunch, the US military fought the Communists to the peace talks. US, North Viet Nam and South Viet Nam all signed treaty forming two seperate countries. North broke treaty, invaded. US Congress would not send material support. Flushed all the hard work of US Military. So when someone says US Military lost the war in Viet Nam, they are mistaken. The US Congress handed South Viet Nam to the communists.

War is terrible but the alternatives to war are often much worse. Saddam and his regime are evil! As evil as Hitler. It is likely that the anti-war demonstrations and actions by France and Germany to obstruct us caused the war. A united front demanding immediate disarmament probably would have caused Saddam to back down.

We can't appease people like Saddam. You have to stand up to him and destroy him before he does it to us. WW II was enabled by people who appeased Hitler. They were so afraid of the horrors of war that they figured it was better to give Hitler what he wanted in order to get "Peace in Our Times". What they got was an enemy who grew more powerful and almost devoured them. We can't make the same mistake!

What do you think would happen if we stopped the war now ? Saddam's stock would rise as he would claim to have defeated us and ours would fall as we would be proven to without honor and unreliable. Our allies would seek accommodations with bad guys such as N. Korea and China. I expect that it would cause wars. Iraq would invade Kuwait and Saudia Arabia to seize control of their oil. N. Korea would attack the south as they would not have anything to fear from us. In short the result would be more war not less.

My idea of stopping the war now is quick and total military victory. I am not proposing we leave at this point, too much American blood has been spilled already. I just don't want to see it drug out like my war was.

I agree and expect that our victory will be quick. Saddam rules through fear and his support is brittle. It has been less than a week and the war overall is going well. Though I would rather that it take longer then to loose soldiers in an attempt to hurry the war.

Vietnam took forever because we did not try to win the war. The politician were to afraid to attack North Vietnam and win the war. They also sided with a corrupt and weak government which was unable to stand on it's own against the north. This is the way democrats fight wars. Republicans know how to fight and win wars.

T LEE,

I don't think they will drag it out like they did in the 60's and 70's, we know what happened then and I doubt the politicians have the balls to do it again.

Speaking of those odors and such, they will never leave the memory bank I guess. Listen to the blading of a chopper and the smell of the jet exhaust..........chills!

Friend,

I 've never heard war described as graphically. One must have been there

to understand. My wife couldn't but she got a glimse of it on the Band of

Brothers series.

There are no jungles to hide in-terrain is a major difference and the North Vietnamese didn't hate Ho like the Iraqis hate Saddam. The American people will not tolerate another Vietnam where the politicians start it and try to run it. It will be over fast but this house to house thing could get really nasty, bloody and time consuming. I hope to God it is nothing like Hue.

T. Lee-- Great post-- Brought back lots of memories, good and bad. Were you a CC or DG? I flew with the 101st up in I corps,'69-70. I always felt I had the best crew chief and door gunner in the Army, but I bet you were pretty good yourownself. betcha case of beer I can stop that rotor perfectly aligned for tie-down!--Bill

Hello billg,
Just a DG, and I won't take your bet, my pilot could do it too! I, like my fellows always did the best we could. I was with the First Cav. '65-'66.

T-- Ain't no such thing as "just" a door gunner. I flew with a different co-pilot every day, but I hand picked my CC and DG and flew with them every mission. If I was forced to fly a mission missing either a co-pilot or leaving a CC or DG behind, the co-pilot would lose every time. Just in case no one adequately expressed this sentiment to you, you and your bretheren were highly regarded and much appreciated! --Bill

billg, T LEE,

Glad to know that, I just got to ride in and shag'ed ass when we got there.........also appreciated the ride out from time to time. 47's & 53"s

Oh, the BST's (Big Slow Targets). I was in a "B" model Huey.

T LEE,

I know they CH-53 may look slow but just a little faster than the UH-1. I have to agree they are bigger. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Check out this partial data list,


CH-53
Performance:

Maximum range (unrefueled): 480 nautical miles
Ferry range: 990 nautical miles
Maximum endurance (unrefueled): 5.1 hours
Maximum allowable airspeed: 150 knots

note: That is max. allowable airspeed, they will fly faster, but.....


UH-1
PERFORMANCE
(UH-1F)
Maximum speed: 140 mph.
Cruising speed: 115 mph.
Range: 330 miles
Service Ceiling: 24,830 ft.

My one claim to fame was forever hollering, "MORE ALTITUDE!". LOL They sure took a lot of abuse though.

Yes they did and I always said altitude was money in the bank! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

T,

Little more speed here in the 47,


CH-47
The CH-47 is a twin-engine, tandem rotor helicopter designed for transportation of cargo, troops, and weapons during day, night, visual, and instrument conditions. The aircraft fuselage is approximately 50 feet long. With a 60-foot rotor span, on each rotor system, the effective length of a CH-47 (with blades turning) is approximately 100 feet from the most forward point of the forward rotor to the most rearward point on the aft rotor. Maximum airspeed is 170 knots with a normal cruise speed of 130 knots. However, speed for any mission will vary greatly depending on load configuration (internal or external), time of day, or weather conditions. The minimum crew for tactical operations is four, two pilots, one flight engineer, and one crew chief. For more complex missions, such as NVG operations and air assaults, commanders may consider using five crew members and add one additional crew chief.

I only remember two pilots and a crew chief and he doubled as a DG.

Ah yes, but we were more agile and needed a lot less area for an LZ. 'Sides, we were a much smaller target!

T Lee, when men have lived through and seen what you have, the brutal reality of war the constant threat of death or injury the constant pain and fear of yourself and your comrades, how can you forget how could anyone expect you to.

I have the very deepest admiration for all our soldiers past and present your lives have touched and influenced the way we all live today.

god bless you.

Loggy, I actually had it easy compared to the Grunts humping the bush day and night. They have my admiration!

T,

I hope this one works...
[img]http://millerswebsite5.tripod.com/53pics/12%2053's%20flight.jpg[/img]

I give up on it.......... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I see it, PAVE's? Or blackhawks.

An old Picture here:

T,

Its a formation of 12, CH53's

for some reason it isn't showing on my screen.....?

It shows up for me. I don't know why you can't see it.

I know this thread is ancient but I wanted to take a moment and thank all the rotary air crews personally. T LEE you outdate me by an entire generation (my first war was Desert Storm, last was a tour in Afghanistan in 09/10) Having been delivered and retrieved by helos on numerous occasions I salute your ethos and grit. I know the sights, the smells (hell, I can taste it right now) and the feelings. The tasks given to aircrews border on lunacy at times and I've never seen them even flinch!

Thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for your courage.

I can't sleep. The day T Lee wrote this I was at camp Atterbury Indiana waiting to deploy to Iraq. As it turned out we ended up supporting the 160 SOAR at ft. Campbell and I never made it to Iraq. I went to Afghanistan as a contractor in 2009. I did 32 years as a LEO and retired in 2008. I never had to pick up the dead and dying in a Huey but I saw my share as a LEO. I did 20 years in the National Guard with 12 1/2 on flight status. Gott 1000 hours in the air. Went to Ft. Hood and did Medevac for 8 months there.

kwg