I've been reading through the thread on subsonic .45-70 loads & it got me thinking -- If I were to dedicate a rifle to full-time subsonic/suppressed use, why wouldn't I just start with the .45 LC case & save some rifle length/weight, powder, & worry about case fill %?
Am I missing something?
Sounds logical to me.
However I do not use suppressors on any gun, so what do I know.
Agreed, a 45-70 rifle is more cumbersome than an 1892 model or Marlin in 45 Colt, and there are plenty of hot 45 colt loads that will do what you need.
Unless there is some issue with twist rate, it will be much easier to make a subsonic load with a 45 LC than a 45-70. Even with 300gr bullets you have to work to keep them subsonic out of a rifle barrel.
Unless there is some issue with twist rate, it will be much easier to make a subsonic load with a 45 LC than a 45-70. Even with 300gr bullets you have to work to keep them subsonic out of a rifle barrel.
I hadn't considered twist rate - will have to do some comparisons there.
Agreed, a 45-70 rifle is more cumbersome than an 1892 model or Marlin in 45 Colt, and there are plenty of hot 45 colt loads that will do what you need.
Not having checked much, I'm assuming there are standards loads that should be easy to keep subsonic from a 16-18"barrel..?
I've been reading through the thread on subsonic .45-70 loads & it got me thinking -- If I were to dedicate a rifle to full-time subsonic/suppressed use, why wouldn't I just start with the .45 LC case & save some rifle length/weight, powder, & worry about case fill %?
Am I missing something?
No, you aren't missing anything. I'd choose the 45 Colt every time for a dedicated subsonic levergun.
It's all the same logic/reasons a 300 Blackout is better than a 308 Win for subsonic use.
And if you really want to get into the lightest loads, you can use 45 Schofield and 45 Cowboy brass in a 45 Colt. The 45 Cowboy is about the same length as a 45ACP case.
https://www.starlinebrass.com/45-cowboy-special
Agreed, a 45-70 rifle is more cumbersome than an 1892 model or Marlin in 45 Colt, and there are plenty of hot 45 colt loads that will do what you need.
Not having checked much, I'm assuming there are standards loads that should be easy to keep subsonic from a 16-18"barrel..?
This is more or less true at least what I've found making subsonic loads for a suppressed 44 mag carbine. Most weaker 44 special loads, but not all, stayed subsonic from a 16" barrel. The heavier the bullet the better, obviously.
Unless there is some issue with twist rate, it will be much easier to make a subsonic load with a 45 LC than a 45-70. Even with 300gr bullets you have to work to keep them subsonic out of a rifle barrel.
I hadn't considered twist rate - will have to do some comparisons there.
Henry .45 Colt is 1:16"
Henry .45-70 is 1:20"
I don't see any negative to this plan from this direction.
Do you have a "planned" purpose for the rifle, or just want a quiet rifle?
That may alter ones opinion?
Do you have a "planned" purpose for the rifle, or just want a quiet rifle?
That may alter ones opinion?
At this point I'm thinking:
1. Suppressed/Subsonic predator control around the flock & farmyard.
2. Suppressed deer rifle (stalking, wooded stand-sitting, small-statured shooters).
3. Unsuppressed deer/woods defense, "nuclear" .45LC loads approaching entry-level .45-70
I have a suppressor that's rated for .45 Colt/ACP, .300BLK subsonic, & 10mm Auto - but not .45-70 in any flavor. Currently it's living on a 9mm carbine, which is only legal for #1 & it's not great even there.
Unless there is some issue with twist rate, it will be much easier to make a subsonic load with a 45 LC than a 45-70. Even with 300gr bullets you have to work to keep them subsonic out of a rifle barrel.
It’s actually very easy to make subsonic loads for the .45-70, especially with cast bullets. Eleven grains of Unique (no filler ) under a 300-grain RCBS bullet nets 1079 fps out of my 30” rollingblock. Accuracy is under 4 moa with iron sights at 100 yards. Seventeen grains of BlueDot gives the 400-grain RCBS bullet 1075 fps out of my 16” Contender carbine.
That said, it
is easier with my M94 Trapper in .45LC. Eleven grains of AA-5 sends the 255 Lee RNFP out at 1084 fps. This bullet is a gem in Lee’s bullet line, very accurate with excellent terminal effect on game thanks to its large meplat and a surprising BC of 0.20. The very long bearing surface enhances accuracy, and it feeds well from my M94 too.
Supersonic the .45LC gave me 1570 fps out of the Trapper with a healthy dose of H110 and a Hornady 250 XTP. I think that the OP’s idea has a lot of merit.
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Personally, I think the 45-70 is the better choice. When it comes to subsonic loads, any caliber/cartridge you use is limited to velocity. The energy is increased by bullet weight. Firing a 405 grain bullet out of a 45 LC would be an interesting experiment. I shoot suppressed subsonics in 22 LR, 30-30, 308 and 45-70. In every instance, save the 22 LR, the bullets are heavy for caliber. 405 grain subsonics in my Marlin Guide Gun with a 16 inch barrel are "cat sneeze" quiet but hit hard. Up to 75 yds. the trajectory is suitable for good accuracy. Beyond that, the bullet starts to drop noticeably. The biggest challenge is finding a powder that provides a quiet suppressed report. I find Hogdgon Trail Boss and no filler to be the ticket. Other powders I have tried, while rendering subsonic velocities, were nonetheless loud when fired.
Since I don't load rimfires, I have found the Eley Subsonics to be the best. Velocities are right on the cusp of supersonic but remain subsonic through the suppressor and zero is virtually the same as the supersonic loads.
T.S.
I've been reading through the thread on subsonic .45-70 loads & it got me thinking -- If I were to dedicate a rifle to full-time subsonic/suppressed use, why wouldn't I just start with the .45 LC case & save some rifle length/weight, powder, & worry about case fill %?
Am I missing something?
I deer hunted this year with my Henry 45 Colt Xmodel with a suppressor. The Henry has a 1-16 twist so you can shoot 300 grain bullets. I took a doe at 20 yards with a 300 grain XTP going 1070 fps. There was full penetration and a good blood trail. It only went about 40 yards.
In my experience with penetration testing I would recommend a flatnose hard cast if shooting 250 grain as you want sufficient penetration. In 300 grain you can use an XTP or a hard cast flatnose.
The Speer 250 deep curl expands quickly and will not penetrate as deeply but it will hammer small game. It's also very accurate and will shoot one hole groups at 50 yards. The 230 XTP is another great small game round.
The advantage of the 45 Colt is having bullets that were designed to expand at subsonic velocities. The 300 grain XTP is about perfect for moderate expansion and deep penetration.
A 300 grain hard cast bullet in a 45 Colt handgun at 1070 has an established reputation of being a big game load. I'd stick with hard cast flatnose for big game where penetration is most important. The XTP will give moderate expansion on medium game and make it a better choice for larger wound channels. I think the 45 Colt is about the best choice for subsonic suppressed hunting. I wish you could get it in a bolt action rifle though the Henry is a fine lever gun.
Never understood the suppressor thing.
I want a full length case in my chamber…..reduces carbon build-up in the chamber. Yes, if cleaned very regularly a non-issue…….I just don’t want to spend a lot of time cleaning that could have been avoided.
In all of my handguns, I use magnum cases with reduced charges to accomplish light loads with minimal carbon buildup!
This is just my preference! memtb
I deer hunted this year with my Henry 45 Colt Xmodel with a suppressor. The Henry has a 1-16 twist so you can shoot 300 grain bullets. I took a doe at 20 yards with a 300 grain XTP going 1070 fps. There was full penetration and a good blood trail. It only went about 40 yards.
In my experience with penetration testing I would recommend a flatnose hard cast if shooting 250 grain as you want sufficient penetration. In 300 grain you can use an XTP or a hard cast flatnose.
The Speer 250 deep curl expands quickly and will not penetrate as deeply but it will hammer small game. It's also very accurate and will shoot one hole groups at 50 yards. The 230 XTP is another great small game round.
The advantage of the 45 Colt is having bullets that were designed to expand at subsonic velocities. The 300 grain XTP is about perfect for moderate expansion and deep penetration.
I did end up selling my .45-70 for the same Henry X in .45 Colt. I'm very happy with the decision to switch, as it feeds well, uses less powder, is quiet, and is lighter.
We carried it with 250gr this year (didn't get any close shot opportunities though) because I didn't have time to test a bunch of different loads in time for deer season. I'd read some chatter about the 300gr+ loads maybe being too long to feed in the Henry Big Boy action -- am glad to hear they worked for you so I'll try to get something worked up in the next year.
Never understood the suppressor thing.
HUH? I can't hear you over the ringing in my ears!
Quieter is always better. This Henry X is hearing safe with the can on, and I don't have to worry about waking up the neighbors during their Sunday afternoon naps.
I want a full length case in my chamber…..reduces carbon build-up in the chamber. Yes, if cleaned very regularly a non-issue…….I just don’t want to spend a lot of time cleaning that could have been avoided.
In all of my handguns, I use magnum cases with reduced charges to accomplish light loads with minimal carbon buildup!
This is just my preference! memtb
It never would have crossed my mind to try a .45 Colt in a .45-70 rifle chamber. Still wouldn't.
I want a full length case in my chamber…..reduces carbon build-up in the chamber. Yes, if cleaned very regularly a non-issue…….I just don’t want to spend a lot of time cleaning that could have been avoided.
In all of my handguns, I use magnum cases with reduced charges to accomplish light loads with minimal carbon buildup!
This is just my preference! memtb
It never would have crossed my mind to try a .45 Colt in a .45-70 rifle chamber. Still wouldn't.
Sorry, I need to brush-up on my reading between the lines. ☹️ I thought that you had a 45-70 and were considering trying to use LC brass for your light-loads. memtb
Never understood the suppressor thing.
Like a muffler on a car. What's hard to understand?
Never understood the suppressor thing.
Like a muffler on a car. What's hard to understand?
I’d love to use them if, they didn’t make the barrel incredibly long, requires permission from our government..…AND, it looks like a “car muffler” on the gun barrel! 😉 memtb
Never understood the suppressor thing.
Like a muffler on a car. What's hard to understand?
I’d love to use them if, they didn’t make the barrel incredibly long, requires permission from our government..…AND, it looks like a “car muffler” on the gun barrel! 😉 memtb
After using them for several years, I don't even want to use my non suppressed guns anymore. I've threaded everything except my nice walnut/blued steel rifles. Makes shooting so much nicer. Plus the neighbors don't complain when I shoot coyotes around the house.
Quote from Kodiakisland: Plus the neighbors don't complain when I shoot coyotes around the house.
Your neighbors are way too close! 😂
Back on topic though, I can’t even consider shortening the barrel on my hunt’n rifle as it’s not a dedicated brush/timber gun.
A suppresser would work nice on my Marlin GG…..but that would be absolute Blasphemy! 😉 memtb
Never understood the suppressor thing.
Like a muffler on a car. What's hard to understand?
I’d love to use them if, they didn’t make the barrel incredibly long, requires permission from our government..…AND, it looks like a “car muffler” on the gun barrel! 😉 memtb
Amen. I hate the look of rifles that wear them
A 16" barrel is plenty for a 45 Colt. You can add a suppressor without going beyond 24". I like the suppressor for quiet handling of vermin and deer around the house and for predator hunting at night.
The 300 grain Missouri truncated cone flatpoint Hitek bullet feeds well in the Henry lever. You can get 400 bullets for 65$. I haven't shot a deer yet with one but they do significant damage to a rabbit. They will penetrate 6 (one) gallon jugs of water and 2 pieces of plywood and keep right on trucking. Good powders are W231, AA#2 and Titegroup. These fast powders will burn up by end of barrel with subsonic loads and be very quiet. Just be aware when working with too light of loads of fast powder that you can stick a bullet in the bore. The Missouri bullets will easily push out with a cleaning rod. Keep your charges just under 1100 fps. I aim for 1050 to 1070. This will still be a potent load with a 300 grain bullet out to 100 yards. Remember that John Linebaugh shot a lot of big game with a 250 grain at 900 fps. A 300 grain at 1050 will hit with authority.
Never understood the suppressor thing.
Like a muffler on a car. What's hard to understand?
I’d love to use them if, they didn’t make the barrel incredibly long, requires permission from our government..…AND, it looks like a “car muffler” on the gun barrel! 😉 memtb
Amen. I hate the look of rifles that wear them
I don't like the looks of an AR either, but they sure do work.
What I find funny is everyone I've let shoot some of my suppressed rifles and pistols now owns suppressors. Maybe you don't see the need until you do.
I like hearing the crack of a rifle
The biggest challenge is finding a powder that provides a quiet suppressed report. I find Hogdgon Trail Boss and no filler to be the ticket. Other powders I have tried, while rendering subsonic velocities, were nonetheless loud when fired.
T.S.
I use Unique for my cast&coated subsonic.45-70 loads. Would like to try Trail Boss but it doesn’t seem available anymore.
As to the OPs question, if your can is only rated to .45 Colt then that’s what I’d get unless you want to buy another can. I love shooting subs in my Marlin 1895 Trapper but my can (Hybrid 46) is rated for high pressure rounds.
45-70 data:
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm45LC data (45LC Henry):
405g .458 lead hard cast, flat nose, powder coated, swaged to .452 with Lee swag:
OAL - 1.645"
9.6g BluDot
Std primer
3/4 crimp (LFC die)
~1010 fps
Usual precautions.
If your only use will be suppressed, go 45 colt. It's a more appropriate case size for suppressed, you can fit more rounds in the mag, and you can still increase the bullet weight in the 45 colt to try and make up for velocity. also, you will use less powder with the 45 colt.
Now, you could get a custom made 45-70 barrel with faster twist and try to run some 700gr bullets subsonic in it. The ultraheavy 45 cal bullets would help fill up the case for the lack of powder being used to bring it down to subsonic.
45LC would make a good option for subsonic loads, though it’s not hard to develop subsonic loads for a 45/70. The main advantage the 45/70 has is a wider range of bullet choices, eg like Hornady Sub-X bullets.
Most of the heavyweight 452 jacketed pills were probably designed for the 454 Casull and are unlikely to expand at subsonic velocity.
This is easy to address if you cast your own pills. A few suppliers make 452 moulds in 350gr+ weights with HP options. Just note the nose to crimp groove dimension as a number of 452 moulds are catering for revolver users who have long cylinders (eg Ruger). A 452 350gr WFN bullet with a HP, cast soft would make an awesome subsonic pill for a 45LC.
The Hornady SubX is available in .452 395gr pill.
Yes there is but that one looks to be designed for the 450 Bushmaster. The long pointy nose and overall length would likely be too long for the 45LC in a levergun.
I've been reading through the thread on subsonic .45-70 loads & it got me thinking -- If I were to dedicate a rifle to full-time subsonic/suppressed use, why wouldn't I just start with the .45 LC case & save some rifle length/weight, powder, & worry about case fill %?
Am I missing something?
No, you aren't missing anything. I'd choose the 45 Colt every time for a dedicated subsonic levergun.
It's all the same logic/reasons a 300 Blackout is better than a 308 Win for subsonic use.
And if you really want to get into the lightest loads, you can use 45 Schofield and 45 Cowboy brass in a 45 Colt. The 45 Cowboy is about the same length as a 45ACP case.
https://www.starlinebrass.com/45-cowboy-special45 Cowboy Special brass may not feed in some leverguns. It won't feed in my Henry X rifle.
I’m a big suppressor fan. Though I don’t use them with or on sub-sonic loads. The sherif in this county is a friend of mine, i understand the constant shooting at my place has been brought up in his presence. I think he’s happy that I’ve chosen to use suppressors a lot.
I have a couple 45-70 lever guns and a 45 Colt lever gun. I think either 45-70 or 45 Colt would work fine. Sub-sonic loads with either - would work well.
For your needs either sounds like it would work.
If I had to choose one over the other, my choice would be the 45-70 as my wants are different. The 45-70 is capable of plinking loads up to man-eating critter loads. Having written that, I’m too old, I’m too cheap, I’m too out of shape to go after man eaters.
You’ll likely be happy with either.