I just picked up a Guide Gun in 45-70. I have 3 more days until elk opens and have 3 bullets to choose from.
The factory 325 grain LEVERevolution is scary accurate, but I don't have any knowledge on them. I also have 300 grain HornadyHP and 350 grain Hornady FP that I can load up. The 300 grain HP's seem very accurate as well.( both out of my rifle)
I will be hunting in heavy brush and don't feel like tracking too much. Which would you use for short to medium range elk?
Thanks
Jim

Took my 45/70 with me elk hunting but didn't find any shootable elk. Dropped down in elevation and shot a pronghorn with it at 250 yds using the 325 gr LeverEvolution ammo. It let the air out of him rather quickly. WOuldn't be afraid to poke an elk with it and hope to soon.

I am not sure that the 300 grain hollow point is an elk bullet, I am not sure that it is not either. It would probably get the job done. Of the other two load up either one and shoot with confidence. Only the elk will have a problem with either bullet.

8mmwapiti

IF you are going to use a 300 grain bullet, keep the Speer Unicore in mind.

I shot some 300 gr Winchester factory HP bullets at a bunch of metal oil drums and was AMAZED with the penetration. Completely penetrated three drums, and tore a 5" cut in the on side of the fourth drum -- lead was inside the fourth drum, jacket on the outside. Wouldn't have expected that kind of penetration from a HP.

I would bet the leverlotion stuff will work but I am using a Hornady FP over 59grains of varget. Haven't got the chance to shoot an elk with it. Work etc keeps getting in the way.

Any relation to Joe the Plumber? grin..

whoops doubletapped

Try the Speer 350 grn. bullet. It was originally designed to use in the .458 WM, and therefore is built a bit tougher than some others.

Someone told me they tried and that bullet won't work. They said the cannelure is in the wrong place. Crimping in the cannelure leads to an OAL too long to feed through a Marlin.

I don't know this first-hand, didn't try it, just passing on what was reported to me.

Good bullet for the Ruger .45-70 single shot, though.

Tom

Try the Lee .45-70 factory crimp die and you can crimp where you wish .

How about cast bullets ? Why not give them a try ?

God bless
Wyr

Well you know how "someone" is...sometime's he don't know squat from a Baby Ruth and just keeps proving it.

The Hornady 350 RN bullet base to bottom edge of the cannelure is about 0.420" and it's about 0.054" wide, the bullet OAL is about 0.990" so the cannelure is roughly right in the middle of the bullet, so splitting the width at 0.027", adding that number to the trimmed 45-70 at 2.05" and you come up with around 2.497" COAL.

I don't see any problem with that COL working through a lever gun. My 336 Marlin in 356 Win will handle up to 2.67" COL after I did a bit of fiddling and it would handle 2.57" COL BEFORE I fiddled. You can always trim the case a bit more, crimp somewhere in the groove and come up with a shorter COL and not hurt the ballistics any.

Both the 350 RN or the FP are excellent bullets for use in the 45-70 or 450 M in Marlin or 45 cal rechambered Marlin or Win leverguns and are designed to function throughout a higher velocity range. Check out a Hornady Manual for the velocity ranges of all Hornady bullets.

Look at it this way...if it doesn't mushroom much, it will act like a solid or a hard cast bullet and penetrate or punch completely through. If it does mushroom well, it will act like it should and produce a larger wound channel and possibly a large exit wound...the best of both worlds.

Bullet construction, how they "should" work, which one is "THE BEST" and so forth, keeps the pot boiling over on every forum I ever checked out. Everone picks the one they like and will get frothy-mouthed, red faced, apoplectic, totally crazed and fight to the death, trying to "defend" their position.

Hey...pick the one you like and dance with the one you brung...ain't no thang...they're all pretty in some way, they all kill as long as the hunter does his job and I shoot them all in my 458 WM AND 45-70, soon to be 45-100, NEF.

For heavy brush and elk I would use a 400-450 gr...and not to put to fine a point on it...placing the bullet where it does the most good is far more important than bullet construction or how heavy it is.

He was referring to the Speer 350. And that was correct; if you use spec brass and seat to the cannelure, it is too long for the Marlin. Probably be an okay bullet for a "poop" shot. I'd use the 300 Uni-Cor and avoid hitting poop though.

AHHHHHhhh...I see that now, I missed that totally...I don't have any 350g Speers on hand to measure so I checked Speer's site and my other data... the bullet is 0.990". I also rechecked the Hornady 350...it is 0.890"...wrong pair of glasses on...but the cannelure is the same so the COAL would be 0.050" less using the Hornady 350.

Speer's bullet picture looked like it had a groove about midpoint that could be used or the case could be trimmed back enough to be crimped in the cannelure and still work through Marlins without loosing any worthwhile pizzazz. I trim cases all the time, depending on circumstances, to get case, crimp, feeding, etc, to come out right. Sometimes it does impact ballistics a slight amount, but no animal I shot ever read my ballistic charts that I know of. There are lots of ways to get things you like to work like you want.

I would be interested in any measurements, base to cannelure, you could post...the Speer 350 is a good looking bullet, nice shape, good BC and I like the HotCors well enough to use them in several of my smaller cals, I just haven't gotten around to using then yet in my 45 cals...mostly 400g jacketed and 425-525 hard cast, any 300g for the small stuff.

It might work well in my SMLE 458 WM MINIMUM conversion as the max COAL is 3.04" for the mag. It also might work great in my soon to be 45-100 NEF BC for the smaller game...as soon as the reamer and brass get here this week.

I've shot up over 250 mixed weight, cast and jacketed, 45 cal bullets over the past month working up loads for the SMLE. Now I have to get another order off to Midway. See what done gone and done.

I don't hunt with "poopshooters" more than once and don't eat their BBQ's either.

The 350 Speer is a MUCH tougher bullet than the 350 Hornady. Have used them all in various 45-70s over a period of 20 years. The best of the bunch, though, is the 405gr traditional Remington, if you can find them. They should not be confused with the Speer 400gr, which is much, much softer. The 405 Remington will work on anything in N.A., from coyote to moose. And, it has a better BC than the others and will fly quite flat if pushed around 2000fps. It can be used on big game to over 300 yds.

As mentioned by another poster, the Lee crimp die can be used on the 350 Speer and the 405 Remington without worry over the location of the cannulure. Especially if the load is lightly compressed. Using AA2015 or RL-7, 2000 fps with a 400gr is possible without undue stress in a 22" barrel.

My 1895 Marlin is the standard with a 22" tube and beautiful wood. I've owned 3 of 'em and a Guide Gun. My current Marlin is the best of the lot. I like the pistol grip for control and it balances better that the GG. With the same handload, it betters the GG by 100 to 150fps.

Short range elk medicine out of a guide gun? I'd load up some 425gr Pile driver Jrs from Beartooth bullets and call it done. Any of the well known hardcast bullet makers in a 400gr or heavier size should be just the cat's azz on elk.

A simple 405 gr government bullet cast from 20-1 will penetrate thru about any elk manufactured around this part of the world , ad it doesn't need to be driven to recoil bone crushing velocities to do it.
The 350 gr Hornday roundnose doing about 1700 out of a Marlin will definetly take and elk, but I wouldn't use it again, unless that's all I had.
The 300 gr bullets will work alright, afterall that's what's making the 454 casull famous.
Now if you want spectacular cast bullet preformance on elk whip up a 550 gr paper patch bullet to about 1200 fps...

A friend borrowed my GG and took it to Sask for a over-the-bait bear hunt with the Leverevolution ammo. I wondered about the choice; it does about 1800 fps out of my GG.

Anyway, he got the bear "harvest" on video and there is a horizontal geiser of blood the diameter of a broom handle out the off side of the bruin. I don't know what that means, if anything, concerning elk but there it is. The bruin pancaked on his nose, got up to go down the last time.

I believe, though, as an inexperienced 45-70 user on elk, I'd choose a heavier bullet.

Gdv

Yep, 405 hardcast with wheel weights and just enough FFg to make it "crack" istead of "boom". It's not a 350 yard antelope load, but that's not the project.

Wayne

300 gr Remington fired into water-filled milk jugs from 20 yards at a muzzle velocity of 2115 fps. Bullet fragments were all recovered from the third milk jug and combined weight was 152 grains, the lead pancake measured .849" dia.


350 gr Swift on the left, 350 gr Hornady FNSP on the right.
Swift mv=2046 fps, recovered from 7th jug, weighed 345 gr, measured .710" dia.
Hornady mv=2086 fps, recovered from 6th jug, weighed 296 gr, measured .846" dia.


Remington 405 gr factory load, didn't chronograph it, I'd estimate about 1300 fps mv. Recovered from 8th jug, weighed 397 grains and measured .530" dia.


I'd show you a photo of the 425 gr Piledriver, but I haven't got enough milk jugs to catch one yet...

Guy your pictures sort of make a fella wonder, if that lowly remington factory load did 8 jugs and that super dooper Swift did 7, which of those 2 rounds was easier on the gun and the shooter, and do you suppose a critter hit with one would be any deader than with the other?

That Remington factory round is loaded very mild and is very easy on the shoulder. It also barely managed to expand, which I figure is why it penetrated so well. I forget the advertised velocity for the 405 Rem factory round, and never have run one across the chronograph. I think the factory claims somewhere around 1300 fps, but I've heard other guys estimate 1100 - 1200 fps or so.

I shot a mule deer doe with the 405 Rem bullet, but loaded to about 1650 fps - it worked real well. Appeared to have some expansion, and penetrated completely through both shoulders on a broadside shot from about 70 yards.

The Swift, loaded to over 2000 fps has more thump on both ends for sure!

One of these days I'm going to save up a whole batch of gallon jugs and belt 'em with a 425 grain hard cast bullet...

Uhh...you'd better have more than 12, that much I know.

Barnes TSX .300 grains work well in my .45-70 GG.


Experience on Red deer, fallow deer, pigs, and roe deer with them.
Also on paper, see image:

My go to bullet for my guide gun, is the 300 gr. nosler partition. I've used it on bear, wild hogs, and on my plains game hunt in south africa, last summer. Out of 15 head of big game, I have only recovered 4 bullets, 3 from a zebra, and 1 from a kudu, which was the size of an average bull elk. Here's a coupla pics.



My kudu.



Recovered noslers.

maddog

"Kudos" to maddog. Good pictures. Thank you.

Take a look at the DOUBLE TAP AMMO 405gr. JSP 1800fps

Elk are just big deer, our grandfathers shot them with 30-30 and the like, with lead solids, at low velocities.

Almost any well constructed bullet in the 300-450 gr range, placed well will work if it shoots well in your rifle. The elk won't care.

Barnes, Nosler are favorites, they work. You can shoot the Rem 405 for practice, and use Alaska Bullet Works Kodiak bonded core 405's for hunting.The Alaska Bullet 405 doesn't get much attention but it's a great bullet, It deserves a look.

The old fashioned 405 gr Remingtons are really reasonably priced, just not sexy like the new offerings from other manufacturers. Some people think the jackets on the Rem are too thin. They aren't built for high velociey however. Just one guys opinion.

I really loved the 300gr Win Partition Golds for elk and Bison. They just plain worked.

I shoot the 300 gr Nosler PT at 2150 from my 18.5 GG with H322. 3/4 moa all day long at 100 yards.

I haven't tried it yet on elk, but my Browning 1886 with Buffalo Bore 350 gr JFN at 2100 fps I think would be quite effective.

Big, flat and lead

I too shot a Marlin 45/70 1895 lever gun and I can only say that those Swift bullets are hard to beat on big game, staying together, giving a great mushroom effect not to mention penetrate deer too.

However, on the lever guns, I have gone to the Nosler 300 grainers, (wish they were 350grn.) I don't shoot 405 grain at all on big game as the trajectory is not the greatest down range.
I don't shoot any hardened cast bullets much out of the 45/70 but I do out of the 444 Marlin in 325 grain weight. It gets used more then the 45/70, guess I just like the velocity better, oh well.

The 350 gr hornady FP would be the perfect one to choose. I've been following stories on the 45-70 for quite a few years and the 350 hornady in the 45-70 is supposed to be a great combo for everything under grizzly bears. lots of success stories with that bullet in elk, moose, black bear...

I personally shot them into a big propane tank filled with water at about 2000 fps. they punched through and came out the back ending in about the diameter of a quarter, still fully in tact in a nice mushroom shape.

the 300 gr HP might work, but I wouldn't use it on anything bigger than deer unless I had no choice.

other bullets you didn't mention that I've heard good about are the 300 gr partition, 300 gr barnes x, and any of the 400 gr + hard cast

Jim...I know it's not one you mentioned having but I've had tremendous results with the plain jane 400 grain Speer. I have yet to recover one out of an elk, and it doesn't matter if the animal was broadside or quartering away/towards. All the elk I've shot with this combination (H322, 24" barrel) went for no more than 10 yards and blood loss was impressive, to say the least.

I've heard this bullet get some bad reviews over the years as to being too soft but in the soft skinned, non-dangerous game I've used it on I have had nothing but excellent results. Bear, elk, deer (o.k.....one coyote) all one shot kills...always an exit.

After pleading with Speer for a number of years I gave up and went to other bullets. They must have gotten some calls from someone who impressed them more than I did if the Speer now works as well as you describe it... and I don't question that, but 19 years ago I use it (the 400-gr) on a big black bear and vowed I'd never use it again, which I haven't except for shooting them up in practice. They were VERY soft with a poor BC to boot. The Remington 405-grain is MUCH tougher and has a better BC, and is about 1/2 the cost!

In my testing the 350-grain Hornady RN is too much like the 400-gr Speer, it also is very soft and I'd NEVER push either of them above about 1650 fps on anything bigger than a coyote.

The bear in question was hit solidly behind the right shoulder - exactly where I was aiming - he went up over backwards and landed on all fours in high gear making tracks for parts unknown. BUT, the bullet did work in the sense that it made a 3" hole going in (was never found and never exited)and the bear lost all his life sustaining red fluid before 10 yards! He piled up and I gave him another for good measure. His right side was saturated from shoulder to rump with blood.

Bullet impact was just over 1500 fps. It turned out OK, but have never used that bullet since in hunting, and still have the rest of 'em on hand. The 350-grain Speer is a much better bullet and with a Lee crimp die can be loaded in the Marlin. It's BC isn't great, but it WAS designed for the 458WM (and I've used it out of a 458 on bear)and will penetrate through just about anything when pushed at 2100 to 2400 fps.

My favorite for the Marlin (mine's a 22" classic)is a 465-grain hardcast with GC at 1900 fps. That'll flatten anything in NA, and most anywhere else.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I'm another fan of the Speer 400 grain flat point. I don't push the velocity, though. In bench testing my gun is most accurate around 1600 fps with 52 grains of H4895. Groups with that load run in the .6s for 3 shots center to center at 100 yards. (Scope, obviously.) Add 100 fps and the groups open up to over 3 inches. That's a net loss, not worth it. It shoots it's accuracy load flat enough for 125 yards comfortably. That's all I ask of a lever action.

Figure squirrels don't count, so lets say I've only shot one critter with it, a blacktail buck. The bullet may not have expanded at all, couldn't tell. It was the first "eat right up to the bullet hole" kill I've had in a long time.

Tom

+ 1 for all the good things said about the Nosler partition protected point bullet used in the Winchester Supreme loads.
The factory Winchester .45-70 ammo and .45-90 handloads up to 2200 fps have been accurate and very effective for me in my .45-90.

The 300 gr Partition worked well on two cows a couple of years ago.
But I'm cheap and like to shoot so for me I have settled on the 350 Hornady fp or most often Rem 405.
With the Rem 405 the case is forward of the crimp groove,so you need to use enough of the right powder to support the bullet and keep it from being pushed back during recoil.my typ load is 60gr 4895.
Cast bullets are the obvious next step. Shoot straight!

Another vote for the Piledriver Jr. from Beartooth Bullets. I use a mild load of RL7 to get around 1600fps, and there ain't an elk in the world big enough to stop one of these. I've taken 3 Roosevelt elk in the Cold Jungle of Washington's Olympic Peninsula with this load, and it will chop a one inch hole all the way through, doesn't matter what angle. All 3 elk have gone down hard and only one made it to his feet again...briefly. Massive internal damage and no wasted meat.

Just be sure that there isn't anything standing behind your target you don't want to kill when you pull the trigger.

BasicBeer, the only problem with the Beartooth Piledriver Jr.s is getting them. I've run them in the mid-1600s and the penetration is tremendous.

If you don't mind the wait, they are a top-notch bullet.

I'm sitting on 500 or so of them, more than enough for the rest of my elk hunting life

Aahhhhhhhh, so that's why I had to wait.....

Bottom line, are there reliable factory loads (readily available) for the .45-70 guide gun to use on elk? I am not set up to reload for this caliber right now but am considering this gun for elk in November.

I tried reading through all of the posts and I may have missed it if this was covered, if so I apologize.

Thanks,
SDS

Buffalo Bore The 350 grain jacketed or 430 grain hardcast.
Grizzly Cartridge The Hawk 350 grain BCFP, Hawk 400 grain BCFP and 420 grain WLNGC.
Garrett Cartidge 45-70+P 420 grain Hammerhead.
Conley Precision Cartridge 350 grain JFP, 400 grain Swift or Barnes, 420 grain Cast Performance.

Awesome. Thank you for the summary sir.

SDS

I have been hunting elk with my GG using Hornady 350 Flat Point at 2000 fpm. It picked the spike's front end up off the ground and laid it over sidewise. Shot in the neck, shoulder blade, and left bullet just under hide of opposite side.

Yes, I imagine you could send a 405-gr Laser-Cast hard cast or some other similar hard cast through and through from about any angle without worrying about it. I haven't used enough of the cup-'n-core types mentioned here to know about them.