I have been getting the urge to add a big bore lever to the cabnet. My brother has an 1995G. I have shot it a little. do not like guns with shower heads. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />I cant make up my mind. I want this to hunt white tail, black bears and maybe moose in Canada. But I like a gun that will do a duel service. and the 444 can be handlaoded down with 180 and 240 grain bullets and work with varmits. and heavy hard cast for the big stuff, making it handier. and spending more time out of the cabnet. But the 45/70 has a better premium bullet selection. any thoughts as to one better then the other? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

Flip a coin. The deer, black bear, hog, elk, moose, caribou, pronghorn, coyote, grizzly or gnat's ass hit with a well-placed shot using an appropriate bullet from either won't know the difference.

Jackfish said it well. The 444 is more versatile IMHO, but factory selection is not as good as the 45-70. The 240gr. REM loading is what gave the 444 a bad name. I consider it marginal even for deer.

Complete myth! In tests and on game the Remington 240 grain JSP 444 Marlin ammunition performs about as well as the 265 grain Hornady. I have a friend in Montana who has used it successfully on elk for close to 30 years.




The Remington 240 gr. bullet on the left, and
the Hornady 265 gr. softnose on the right.
Source: Dan Martinez, The Sportsman Online

Remington quickly changed the construction of the bullet in the 1970s after complaints that the original pistol bullet was blowing up.

Jackfish--Are you telling me the 240gr.REM load did not give the 444 a bad name? they must have changed it(if they truly did) for a reason, right? Do you own/shoot a 444? Have you ever hit a deer or bear on the shoulder point with the REM 240gr? Also, what was the test medium for these penetration results?

I'm sure the original 240 grain load did. Remington's first response was a 265 grain offering, later replaced both with a new 240 grain bullet designed to better withstand the 2300+ fps it was loaded to.

Every deer or bear I have shot with my 444 was a bang-flop kill. I'm mean not even one step. Save for the one I shot, a 51/2 year-old doe, with the 240gr REM load. It ran 80yds into a thicket. The penetration was nowhere close to what I'm used to seeing. This was the one and only time I will ever use this load on big game.

thanks guys. Jack do you have the web site that you got this info from? I am curious about the medea also, and in your data I am surprised that the 265 hornady didn't do better. It is listed in hornady's site as a rifle bullet. But i have seen 240XTP's come very close to shedding their core at muzzleloader velocities, on shoulder shots. Hornady probably knew this and that's why the 265grain was added. But I am curious how the 270speer gold dot versus the 265 hornady would do. Or some of the beartooth hard cast. any other links or info would be great.

Hornady's 265 has been around a long time. I remember reading an article about 15 years ago Bob Milek wrote, they were on a Canadian Moose hunt. The 265's worked after a fashion, but one of the Moose took 5 hits.
The 444 should really shine as a hunting round with 300 gr bullets.

frontstuffer �

First, Marlin has quite making �showerheads�. They stopped in 2002 I believe. Although you still find new guns for sale with the ported barrels, the new GG�s, GS�s and full-length 1895�s are unported.

For downloading the .45-70 you can go as light as 250g with a Barnes X, but I shoot 300g cast at 1167fps using a paltry 13.5g HS-6 and a CCI 200 primer. About half the recoil of a .30-30 and near one-hole accuracy out to 50 yards, after which the trajectory becomes somewhat problematic. My girls love these loads.

Since I got it two years ago (three?), my .45-70 has become my most-shot firearm. Plinker loads, hunting loads, and what I call my �Rhino Blaster� loads, 460g hardcast at 1812fps. From 7 foot-pounds recoil to 48 foot-pounds, squirrel heads to rhino, my loads have it covered. I don�t know how you could be more with a 444.

I�m not knocking the 444, but if you don�t handload there is a much wider selection of factory ammo for the .45-70. If you do handload, it appears to me that there is a better selection of premium bullets for the .45-70, with more load data available for a wider range of bullets as well.

Whatever you chose, I�m sure you�ll enjoy it, and that�s what its all about.

I got to tell you, the 444 will take any of the game he mentions, and do it more comfortably. My 450 Marlin (no quips about 45-70 verses 450 marlin, please) is just not as much fun to shoot after about 20 rounds.

I mold cast bullets for each, and would trust the 444 with either the 245 or 300 for deer/elk/black bear any where in its usable range.

I use the 270gr gold-dot over a healthy load of H322. Shoots 1.25" groups or better, and will absolutely flatten any black bear or deer there is. the 300gr uni-cor is also very good and so is the cast stuff. The Hornady load was specifically designed for 444 velocities and is adequate but not as good as the others. To the best of my knowledge, the Rem 240gr is still the same 44mag bullet thet they have been loading all along and has never been changed. It is IMHO too frangible @ 444 velocities.

Coyote what i mean by shower head is muzzle break. or ported. I hand load for my 44mag and my brothers 1895G 45/70 .I sit next to him and spot now and then. I don't like it.It feals like he is sitting behind me.and I am getting hit with the muzzle blast. The other issue I have, is Last year My dad brother and I went bear hunting for the first time this fall. Our guide had an issue with the 45/70 guide. We were hunting out of small pop tent blinds. The year before the guide had a hunter with a 45/70 guide. That took a shot with the muzzle inside the tent. The bear was trying to do a grab and run with the bait pile. According to the guide the tent was damaged, and the hunters ears were still ringing and buzzing 4 days later when he left to go home. I can hand load for either rifle. thats not an issue. Has anybody seen data on hardcast bullets on weight retension and penetration. I have been in Marlin owners Beartooths and LBT sights. Read a bunch of there stuff. They dont really discuss it. and there just is not that much data on the 444. I havent been able to get into load your own in a while. Sight under construction. One other thing. Has anybody had accuracy problems with the ballard rifled rifles with 200 or 240 grain bullets? It seems with the faster twist 1 in 20 vers 1 in 32 of the micro groove could be a problem. thanks

FS,

There are several good handloads, bullets, and company loadings. Because of the interest in the 45-70 over the past years and the advent of the web with regard to big bore levers, the 444 Marlin is enjoying a bit of a rebirth.

Company loadings from CorBon, Grizzly and Buffalo Bore make the 444 Marlin a serious contender for heavyweights and takes pressures to their limits in the Marlin 1895 lever. Conley Precision Ammo loads from light to heavy with 250 HG Partitions (excellent on deer, better penetration than 265 Hornady) to 300 grain Speer SP.

Dynamic jacketed bullets available for reloading are made by Nosler, Hornady, Hawk, Speer, and Swift. I would like to see Alaska Bullet Works design some .430s around their very fine Kodiak bullet, its a dandy in 45-70. There are a multitude of gas check hard casts that would take the 444 Marlin into bone crushing status.

I am reluctant to supply loadings for the 444 Marlin to the private sector, as much care goes into assessing pressure in a lever. Lets just say the well documented H322, H335, ReL#7 and IMR4198 all work well in the 444 Marlin. As far as pressure, the same care applies to a turn bolt repeater, but were talking between 40K-50K psi vs. 60K-72k psi in a turn bolt. The margin for stupidity is a little greater with the turnbolt. In addition, I'm shooting a Win 94 Big Bore Carbine, which will allow more pressure than the Marlin, around 7,500 psi in chamber pressure, which translates into the Winchester being able to take a couple thousand more lbs of bolt thrust. Either way, one must be prudent when dealing with hot rodding a tube feed lever gun.

Up till a couple years ago I loaded and shot exclusively 250 gr. HG Partitions and the Hornady 265 gr. Interlock. Both are real deer slayers. In the past, I took the 250 gr. Partitions to some extreme speeds in the 444 Marlin, they are flat shooters an hold together well. Have only recovered a couple as most shots were within 80 yards and sailed through. I think its fair to say they consistantly will give 24 inches of penetration with no problem. However, I wanted to take bull elk with a heavier loading and I was curious about the CorBon 280 gr. SP Expander load. I used it in 2001 to take a big bodied 4x4 (around 650 lbs on the hoof). Hunting about 40 miles south of Glenwood Springs and Silt, CO. I tracked a feeder heard coming back from their morning run from 7,800 ft. to return to beds and ruminate at 11,000 ft. I was planning on infiltrating the timber area where the heard was bedding, when this bull got out of his bed around 11:30 a.m. and headed just outside the timber line. I was hanging out on a finger formation up top and was set up 125 yards from him at that time. I proceeded to lower the Big Bore and put the cross hairs on the big boy with my 2.5 power fixed scope. I drilled him broadside at about 120 yards and he went down hard. I took some of the shoulder bone on the high back portion where it thins a bit. Went through completely and exited the off side. Good size chunks of bloody lung tissue were pushed out the off side hole. I was impressed by the CorBon SP. After that, I wondered what their FMJ 305 Penetrator would do on a Grizz charge. I'll bet some serious damage.

These days, I reload and shoot the 338 Win Mag and 7mm Rem Mag much more than the 444 Marlin. I almost hesitate to handload it anymore with the ammo available. It is rather pricey today for the premium stuff at 35-45 dollars for 20 rounds. Thats why the Conley and Hornady goods are appealing for the price.

The older Marlin rifling was 1-38. Beartooth has performed several loads with 1-20 vs. 1-38 and from what I saw, up to 355 gr. can give outstanding accuracy in either. I have one of Winchester's BB Black Shadows with 1-12 twist that was issued with the early released models. Shoots anything tight for hunting accuracy.

I read once and article by Poco Kelly where he drove 330 grain Cast Performance LBTs at 2000 fps and completely penetrated 40 inches of wet telephone books with exit, leaving a 2-1/2" radial wound channel all the way through.

I do not believe penetration is a real concern with the 444 Marlin when heavy weight bullets are used on big bodies. I would say penetration hangs right in their with the 45-70 and 450 Marlin.

Take Care,
rossi

Thanks guys. The hunt for a 444 has begun. Stopped at Cabala's at Dundee a couple days ago. No Marlins in the rack new or used. But they have Henry's. So much for the worlds foremost outfitter. Planning on trips to a couple more gun shops <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> in the next few weeks. Like to find a shop with two or three in stock. The wood on some are better then others.Have been shopping at gunbroker and guns America but would rather buy local if possible. Thanks again to all for the info and thoughts.

Check WalMart. They probably don't have any in the store, but can order them for you. A buddy of mine just got his there for a little over $400.

IF your looking for a 35 caliber or larger lever action, Id point out that anything the 35 rem in a lever action marlin and 444 marlin can do the 450 marlin or 45/70 can do BETTER, I owned and hunted with a 444 marlin for several years. yet
if you upgrade to the 450marlin or a 358 win in a browning BLR your in an even better ball park, I sure don,t miss my 444 since upgrading to the 358 win and 450 marlin BLR CARBINES <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

http://www.browning.com/products/catalog...amp;type_id=006


I love the lever action carbines, my marlin 44 mags killed a truck load of deer, but my BLRS are much better rifles, and see the rockys ELK HUNTING most years
BTW thier available in 30/06.270 win 300 win mag,325 wsm

My 444s knocks em dead, I started reading this thread but gave up & decided to just tell you I will be using my .444 when my Bull Moose season opens September 24/05. The last Bull Moose I shot with it took one 265gr Hornady pill, took a stagering 2 step sideways & fell down dead. No need for tracking. The shot was 150 yards, busted a rib going in took out the lungs & busted a rib on the other side but didn't exit.

--Ken

Blame the incompetent hunter not the .444! I have never had to shoot more than two into any animal I have harvested, usually only one required, occasionally I use a second shot to stop the kick'n & thrash'n so I can start the field dressing.
--Ken

Ken... Sure like the picture of the 444. Here is one of mine with the a nilgai it hammered in the Spring of this year. A home, hard-cast 265-grain bullet dropped in like a brick.




And one of my Texas desert mule deer my 444 dropped...


The cartridge and guns are awesome... some might think of them as deep woods rifles but I hunt the coastal plains and high desert with mine! What you shoot with it stay's put!

Thanks for the reply's ranch and savage. I had let this thread get way down the page. I am glad to see it still gets some interest. Started shopping for a 444 had the money set asside. my wife graduated nursing school a few monthes ago. and she needed money to take a capland course to prepare her for the state nursing exams. She needed to pass more then I needed a new rifle.If I drew a bear tage this year I would be bumed. I didn't so there is no rush. I mainly live vicariously through most of you guys anyway. Dreaming of the day when I can have a little more nose, and i don't need so much dust from the grind stone. thank again for the input

just some info I think you gentelmen may need to make an intellegent decision on which lever action caliber to buy,all compared sighted dead on at 150 yards
heres why I feel the BLR is vastly superior

caliber .bullet weight...drop at 300 yards .energy at 300 yards
444marl .......240 grains.......24.1.................................925
358 win.........250 grains.......17.1 ........... .................. 1813
300 win mag..200 grains......10.9 ................................2249
450 marlin.....350 grain.......24.1 ................................1349
Id also point out that further gains are available thru careful bullet selection since the BLR allows POINTED bullets due to the box magazine VS the tube magazine of the marlin design

450 marlin 400 grain....28.6 ..............................1682
this is what a pointed 400 grain bullet in the marlin/blr looks like

340 no doubt about it the BLR would qualify as the "cadillac" of the lever guns. I have 2 in the gun cabinet.
Problem is the Blr doesn't come in anything considered bigbore, and you left the 405 (my personal favorite big bore lever cartridge) out of your ballistics data.

Tried to edit but dumb thing wouldn't do it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />
The Blr does come in the 450, but the 450 won't do anything the 45-70 won't do when fed proper reloads.

Shucks Ken I wouldn't zactly call Bob Milek and incompetent hunter, even when he was still alive, and the big cahoona from Marlin had the same trouble killing his moose on that hunt. I do recall the yardage was guessed at around 175 yds.

Trying to figure that statement out? The Big-Bore Marlins and Winchesters have been killing critters for years. Pointed bullets and speed aren't everything and the BLR isn't for everbody. I would suspect that the sales of BLR's can't even rate compaired to the Marlins and Winchesters.

I just finished hosting my third Postal Match and the BLRs have never outperformed the Marlins or Winchesters.

Ranchdog its not terrible hard to figure out, look at his handle, look at the cartridge he's advocating in what rifle, and then look at the original intent of this thread. The rest will all fall in place. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I also agree with Jackfish.Flip a coin to the 444 or 1895..A well placed shot from either will get you what your after.

Good luck on your choice.

Jayco

I would not recommend a BLR to anyone. I know what they are made of.

I had a BLR years ago in .308 Win, only owned it for 7 months, it spent 5 of the 7 months being repaired under waranty, when I got it back I immediately traded it in because I couldn't trust it to hold together for me. Conversely I never had any troubles or issues with the Savage '99s I owned or with my Marlin 444s. My Savage '99s have all been traded away over the years, the only one I really miss was the .358 Win. My Marlin 444s on the other hand is a keeper that will be with me till the end. Only 11 more days untill the opening of my Bull Moose Hunt, I will be pack'n my .444 Marlin!
--Ken <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Go get'm Ken... pictures please!

BLR's--"the Cadillac of lever guns"? What an absolute joke! 358 superior? It's getting funnier by the second. The 348 has more balls than the 358 in the woods. BLR's are glossy coated, shiny triggered, Japanese made pieces of [bleep] with awkward looking, unbalanced receivers. They hardly qualify as the "cadillacs" of lever guns. Hell, they don't even qualify as the Marlins or Winchesters or Savages for that matter. And certainly aren't classics. Get yourself a 444 or 45-70(so you can use a scope if desired) and go huntin'. You won't ever be sorry---2MG

Thanks guys I was cruising through the local sporting goods store for a birthday present for my father in law. I picked up a BLR in 308 out of the rack, along with a win 450 timber. The shop would not take the zip ties off the lever, unless you bought the gun. The win has a nicer balance. The BLR's just have never turned my crank. They seem to be a love hate thing. To 340's chart you are comparing 200 grain bullets but the 444 are loaded to low 40.000 cup and the 300 mag is loaded to 55.000 to 60.000 cup. and with the 300's higher BC It is no wonder that it looks better on paper. But if you loaded the 450 to the same cup as the 300mag it would behave more like a 458 win then a 45/70. The BLR seems like an oxymoron. a fast handling rifle that can shoot medium to longer ranges. If i am shooting longer ranges, I like to be settled in on something steady and resting my body and rifle watching what i am shooting at and pick my shot. A light fast rifle doesn't help with this. And shooting pointy bullets really fast doesn't kill any faster then slower larger bullets at closer ranges. But as ranch was insinuating there isn't any bolt actions in my arsenal. The only thing I have that shoots a point bullet is a 25/06 in a ruger 1b standard. Thats the woodchuck/ U.P deer rifle.

FS--sounds like you came to the right conclusion. I agree those stats are totally bogus and in no way reflect true full-house loads. Not that I've anything against the 358 at all, but don't start tellin' me it's a more effective woods cartridge than a 444, 45-70, or well loaded 348 for that matter. Pointy bullets are nice, but for woods guns, the the big flat or round nose bullets have a much more devastating effect on game than faster pointy bullets. Nobody in their right mind needs or wants pointed bullets in these rifles, and couldn't care less what there drop is at 300yds. Go shoot something with them all and then get back to me! I own MANY lever guns, and the BLR has never even crossed my mind. My last U.P. bear(2003) was absolutely flattened by my Marlin 444ss( a personal favorite that I'll keep 'til I die). My next one I'll be using a Win 71 348, loaded the way it should be, with 250gr bullets. Take care---2MG

Dang, that is one purty shootin' iron. It just looks handy.

>>--->



And thisun.....just doesn't.

My .444 did the job again this year, dropping my Bull Moose at 150 yards with one shot to the neck, smashing a vertibrae, I then gave it a 2nd shot to stop the thrashing around, the second shot was to the head hitting the base of the right antler & shattering the top of the skull plate so the antlers were broken apart & attached only by the hide, moving independently of one another.

--Ken

Another 265gr Hornady?

Yup, that moose cost me two Hornady 265gr Bullets & 89gr IMR4198 powder, two magnum primers... {my most common load is 44.5gr IMR 4198}. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

--Ken

Man reading this thread is gonna cost me some cash. I have been able to subdue the temptations to snatch one of these bad boys up for quite some time. but I think I'm losing out.........must.......resist........

MS-man, just give in. Life's just better with big bores. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Do not underestimate the power of the dark side! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well.....the temptation was just more than I could stand. I new reading this was gonna cost me, and it did.

Good for you! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So, which one of the big bores did you buy, the suspence is getting to us... .

--Ken

I got what I felt to be a fair deal on a 444ss. By the serial it shows to be a '79 model and I'd conservatively call it to be in 90-93% condition. I bought some ammo for it last night and will hopefully cut loose on something with it in the next day or two. I wasn't looking for a checkered stock but this has one, not sure if it's original equipment. Any ideas on that? Of course it is way pre-safety which is what I wanted for sure. It's very clean and tight. It was well represented by powderburn from here on 24hr and who happens to live within an hour's drive. Btw powderburn, if you happen across this, thanks again.

I plan to use up a bunch of Hornady 265s in it that I have from when I tried them out in my 44mag handgun. Either of the 4198s going to work good for that? I don't keep any powder around that the books call for in this so I'm wide open to suggestions. Will try to load up a picture.

Congrats on your purchase of a '79 444 Marlin, mine is a '76 Marlin 444s, I too am glad not to have a CBS to be an irritation. I use IMR 4198 in my .444 pushing 265gr Hornady's, that should work for you too. You can start at about 42gr & increase from there, mine are cooking on 44.5gr IMR 4198 & a Federal Magnum primer.
--Ken <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Heh, heh, heh, heh,

Now that we have you ....

I have a 1976 444s as well. You've mentioned the 265 grain loads, but this gun shines with cast gas checked bullets up to around the 350 grain weight. Reloader #7 and either 335 powders work very well for these. I use RE7 pretty extensively.

It's time, muleshoe. Time for you to leave behind the childish world of 'puny' handgun cartridges such as the 44 magnum and transition into the mystical world of reloading big bore straight walled rifle cartridges......

Behold the world of possibilities that are open to you

Coyotes
pig
deer
muley (not mules, they don't like it when you shoot them)
elf (er,... I mean elk)
black bear
moose
Freight train.

(And vunce you are suitably indoctinated, you vill check out zee BFR in 444 Marlin as vell....)

Unfortunately, I had to list my 444 in the classifieds today. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
There's also the Leupold 2.5 IER scout scope there too.

I'm stuffing 49.0 gr of V N-120 in Hornady's 444 Marlin cases and capping it with their 265 grainer; plugging the bung hole with Rem 9 1/2 primers.

This is an a very accurate, fast load and is safe in my 444s- 2003 model. The velocity is at 2425 fps/3460 ft/lbs energy. Figuring a 6" vital zone, point blank range is 215 yds.

Oh yeah, someone above was deriding the BLR 358- calling it a piece of (expletive deleted). Well, I love my piece of (expletive deleted) BLR 358. The piece of (expletive deleted) handles so well and shoots so accurately. I hope Browning continues to make these pieces of (expletive deleted) and chamber the 358.

mad ox

What ever happened to do not exceed the charge or velocity of a published load?

I would say he is right on the money for a max load "without" pressures.Under in powder charge and only 10 fps over.


Jayco

So if "only" 10 fps over is OK, why not go 20 or 30 or even 50 fps over?

How many Chrono's read the same and just what exactly is the pressure, is that "so called max" load?Is it one of those "These loads do not exceed" 44,000 CUP and are from 40-42,000 CUP in actual pressure.?

10 fps and under in powder charge.You could well be off that much adapting Hodgdons data from a 24 inch barrel to a 22 inch barrel or a 400 Speer to a 405 Remington.If I was concerned enough about my load and 10 fps <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />I would e-mail Vihtavuori powder and ask them the risk I run at 10 fps faster than there published max load in my production Marlin.

Jayco

So where do you stop? Why not take the load to 50 grains, the maximum published charge, who cares if it exceeds the published velocity by 40 fps? 10 fps can't hurt, so 40 fps can't be that bad, right?

Before I adapted the Hodgdon #27 400 grain Speer FN 45-70 load to the Remington 405 grain JSP I worked up a load in my rifle with the specified components. I then did not exceed either the charge or velocity of that load when using the substituted bullet.

The maxim is "do not exceed either the charge or velocity of a published load." So is it OK to fudge a little? Or is it prudent to always follow that maxim with the components, equipment and procedures one is working with? If the former is OK, then where does the fudge stop?

Jackfish Wrote:

Just how did you come up with the correct velocity when the data you used was done in a 24 inch barrel and your rifle is a 22 inch one?Was this load first checked in a 24 inch barrel then shot in your 22 inch barrel to get the "Correct Velocity" and how much did the velocity vary from the 400 Speer to the Remington 405 when each was first shot in the 24 inch barrel then your rifle?

Geez Jackfish-How can you guess from a 24-22 inch barrel and be exactly the same as it would be tested?A load like above that is 10 fps over with the powder charge under.is a safe load.I checked Hodgdons and there highest "Max" load for the .444 Marlin is 43,100 CUP with a velocity of 2146 fps for a 275 grain Barnes.Would 10 fps put him over 44,000 CUP? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
And don't forget,these are averages.You have to go over 44,000 CUP and under to get a average of 44,000 CUP as a max charge.
Jayco

Available data and observation led me to a comfort level in adapting loads developed in a 24" barrel to my 22" barrel. I agree that 10 fps could be negligible, but I must point out that it could be enough to cause a problem with long-term use. My contention is why risk a problem if one can reduce a load to come in line with the parameters of the published load. It certainly is not going to hurt anything to do that when on the other hand exceeding the velocity of a published load, even by 10 fps, could be a problem. If as you contend one can risk 10 fps, why not more? What would be the threshold? If you violate established procedure for 10 fps, why not 20 fps? Or is 10 fps over always "good to go"?

So why did Hodgdon stop at the charge that produced 43,100 CUP? It is most likely because any additional increase in charge put the maximum average pressure above 44,000 CUP. So, yes it is entirely possible that exceeding the published velocity even by 10 fps could put one over 44,000 CUP. So when one develops loads is it OK to exceed the published charge or velocity? And if 10 fps is OK, why not 20, 30 or even 50 fps?

And what exactly is the benefit in the field when pushing a 265 grain load at 2400 fps plus as opposed to say 2300 fps?

My opinion is that Jackfish makes perfect sense. Prolonged use of max loadings that bump up against the allowables only decrease the life of a firearm and its safe use. In the end, you gain nothing in noticeble power and surely nothing in trajectory.

IMO, it just doesn't make any real sense when using a tube feed lever gun. Your PBR will be unchanged with the same projectile at 2300 fps.

I have a 1895ss 45-70, I shoot buffalo bore 350gr.ammo in it
Its all the gun I can handle and some.
My hunting buddy shot a doe with it,it was impressive to say the least!!!

257 Roberts,

It is impressive when you hit game with these BB lever guns. The commercially available Buffalo Bore and CorBon ammo really takes the 444 Marlin and 45-70 to new levels of power for the nonhandloader.

I have handloaded the Nosler 250 Partitions in 444 Marlin for years and used them on many whitetails and they simply take them down clean and dead. Everytime I point that 444 Marlin at something in the field and pull the trigger, I know that animal is going down.

I was very impressed with the CorBon 280 grain bonded soft expander load. Couple years back I took a big bodied Colorado 4x4 elk at 125 yards with that load. It knocked that bull to the ground and killed him as quick as anything I have ever used on elk and this would include my 338 Win.

Take Care,
rossi