Without being biased toward the rifles or history or coolness factor just straight up usefulness which do you think would be the better all around big game round? 348 brass is hard to find and expensive but there are some real nice bullets available for them. 444 brass is easy to get and bullets are cheap for plinking with 44 mag bullets. I own neither but have several 45/70's but always looking for something new. Will one do everything the other will do equally well? Thoughts for discussion

444 all the way !

348 is extremely versatile! With 200 Flextips it is 300 yard capable. An amazingly useful round. 444 is fun but not as versatile IMO.

I made a video comparing the 348 to the 450 Marlin which might help?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHVfOtt1jko

I know you said to ignore the coolness of the guns, but it really matters with your particular question. The 348 generally comes in a higher quality gun than most 444s. Browning reproductions and original Winchesters are top of the line levers. Marlins are nice guns, but second class compared to a good condition 71.

I've had both, and the 71 carried like a dream compared to outfitter or full sized Marlins.

Marlin offers scope options and more bullet choices, but a 348 should be experienced by all lever fans.

I kinda like the 348 and the rifle that comes with it but own a 1977 Marlin 444 that I simply love. The Marlin (older ones) are very nice guns and being able to easily mount a scope sure helps my not so good eyes. Slap a Wild West trigger in it and load your own and moa and less is usually attainable with most.

North, is that 4451 powder IMR?

I've owned both the .348 and .444, in addition to the .45-70.

As far as trajectory, the .348 is a laser compared to the .444 and especially the .45-70.

All are bone crunchers on big game. I sold the .348 and .444, not because of the cartridge but more due to the platform, my .45-70 is a Guide gun and is simply better handling than the other two rifles were with the longer barrels.

That M71 Browning Repro shore was pretty, too.

444 all day. There ain't no flies on the Marlin 444.

Yes IMR 4451 with magnum primers really works with 200 Horady's and my rifle.

Everyone is different. To me the Win 71, 348 has a balance and ergonomic design that makes my own guide gun feel as handy as fence post in my hands in comparison.

I guess I should be more specific and say the handling characteristics in thick woods/treestand-type hunting.

My 71 had a 24" barrel. Had I owned a 20" carbine, it may be different as to which one I still own. One of the little 444Ps would have probably convinced me to keep it, also.

1886 and 71 Winchesters are awesome as long as you keep a gunbearer around.

A few years ago this article got me thinking about a .444. One day I’ll have one.
http://beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/28

That's what turns me off about em. I'd much rather carry a 92 or 94 for my hunting. Or a .444 Marlin if I felt the need for something bigger.

My 71 weighs in at around 8 pounds. My Marlin guide gun scoped is pretty similar in weight. My Forbes 24B, 25-06 sheep gun scoped and with a sling weighs in at 7 pounds even. I wouldn't want to carry the extra pound of the 71 up mountains but in the woods I honestly never noticed it.

Thanks, North and with you 100% on the 71/348 over the 444. I've had both, love them both, but given a choice, the Winchester all the way.

The 348 ain’t a Big Bore per the thread. 444 is where its at!

The "flies" I can see are the Marlin's 1:38 twist and micro-groove barrel. I solved that problem with a Winchester 94 BB "Timber Carbine" in .444. Can load it hotter than a Marlin, and it's size compares to a 10/22 Ruger. Can even mount a scope to it (it is drilled & tapped), due to it being an angle eject.

Marlin solved that somewhere in the 1990's by going 1:20" Ballard.

Have been shooting 444 Marlin since mid 70s. Currently shooting Winchester 94 AE Big Bore with 1-12 Twist. Handles 300-405 grain jacketed and hard cast loads very well and accurate. Factory loads from CorBon with 225 gr. Barnes at 2,620 fps, 280 gr. EX-SP (no longer in circulation) at 2,275 fps (Killed 3 Elk with this load, devastating results), 305 gr. Penetrator solid (no longer in circulation) at 2,150 fps; going to try Underwood's new 225 gr Xtreme listed at 2,600 fps plus and their 335 gr HC at 2,100 fps. Hornady and Buffalo Bore ammo is out there as well. Saying the 444 Marlin isn't as versatile as the 348 Win to me doesn't hold water. As good as the 348 Win is, it only has a few loadings and bullets available, typically hand loaded with 200-250 grain loads and does not possess the raw muscle of the 444 Marlin. It just can't heave the heavy stuff like the 444 can. Lets face it trajectory is a function of where you wish to zero your rifle depending on bullet weight, pursuit of game and type of terrain your in. None are flat shooters, but all can be set up quite well given the same bullet types to hit large game hard and cleanly between 200-250 yards. The 444 Marlin is quite useful across a large spectrum of game, I would not sell it short in any category. The old .429 - 250 gr. Partition HG loaded to 2,500 fps will smoke most any game out to quite a distance (killed many deer with this load). A 355 grain Beartooth GCHC at 2,200 fps inside 125 yards is very comparable to Norma's PH 375 H&H 350 grain Woodleigh Weldcore FMJ load at 2,300 fps. Both would supply extreme penetration on tough game, one would make larger holes than the other. Only one man's opinion, take it for what it's worth.

I'm not selling it short, just stating a fact.

In original factory loadings, the .348 has a much flatter trajectory than a .444. If a man were inclined to only shoot such ammo, the .348 would allow further reach. The initial loadings of the .444 were also compromised by the use of pistol bullets, which has long since been remedied.

I agree the .444 comes into its own with the heavier, more suited to the task bullets, and mine had the 1/38 twist, so that option was not on the table. Using .44 Mags with heavy bullets gives me an idea what was left out with that slow twist.

I've shot the .45-70 quite a bit with heavy bullets, so I'm aware of what a large bore lever can do. Given the right twist and comparable bullets, there's nothing I wouldn't take on with a .444 that I wouldn't try with the .45-70. It's kind of like the .44 Mag vs .45 LC argument.



That would be my choice for big stuff.

The older CorBon 305 grain Penetrator load is a stellar monolithic projectile. Author Brian Pierce shot through two Cape buffalo standing broadside just inside 100 yards. Velocity was 1,670 fps on the CorBon 405 gr 45-70 factory load he used. The 444 CorBon .429, 305 gr. load with that bullet has a factory velocity of 2,150 fps. Quite sure with this 444 load you could easily slay most anything encountered. As a substitute currently to the CorBon load I’d probably load the .429, 300 grain Barnes Buster. It would duplicate the CorBon projectile well.

I own a Marlin 444S and would love to own an original Winchester 71. They both are cool, but I think the 348 is a little more flexible.

so to spice it up more then. One gun levergun caliber 45/70 or 348?

Or... A Savage 99 in 358 Winchester (I have one) or a Winchester 94 BigBore in 356 Win. (I have one) or a BLR in 358 (I don't have one), or a Browning 1895 re-bored to 35 Whelen (I have one of those). I also have a Marlin in 36 RPP which is faster and hits harder than the 348 or 358 but it is strictly a wildcat/handload proposition.

The way I see it the 348 and 45-70 are apples & Oranges. Both great within their limitations but not comparable. Same goes for the 444, a great round (I have several rifles in 444) but in a different league.

To answer the original question, I see the 348 as the "all-arounder" of the two.

T.S.

I owned an old 444 Marlin. I sold it, due to the length of the action and the length of a 444 loaded with Keith cast bullets - not being compatible.

I would very much like a 348 and never have owned one. For me it would be the 348, but it would be 2x the price. Yet, I'm getting long in the tooth, but if I were to buy one today, it would be an original 348, not the Jap model 71's. I would not care so much for a collector grade one, But, I'd like it to be a shooter.

That is my personal preference.

I've own several 358's and a couple 45-70's and I like them all, but that wasn't your question.

Hornady is introducing their own .348 Winchester ammo with flex tip bullets in 2019.

They are hard to find, but try a rapid taper lt weight Winchester 1886 in 33 WCF. This was the smokeless half magazine rifle that eventually evolved into the 1936 pre-war Model 71.
The 348 or 348 Ackley in the Model 71 is enough gun for most hunting needs , and will out range both the 444 or 45-70 unless you are carrying a Sharps.

For bear encounters in Alaska, Canada or the lower 48-the 450 Alaskan on the 348 case is a proven bear tonic. It pretty well
out powers other contenders, especially with premium bullets. Like the original early Model 71s, you have to own and carry one to fully appreciate the 450 or the M-71.

I had my 1886 takedown in .33 WCF out shooting over the weekend. It is a heavy rifle! Perhaps the takedowns were not rapid taper barrels? Seemed to be about the same in weight as the 71. That 1955 vintage 71 will be taking a trip to Reagan Nonneman after the first of the year to get converted to .50 Alaskan. I like to be over-gunned when possible (too much Elmer Keith influence!) and this rifle will be the go-to once I've relocated to western Montana...should be good piece of mind against grizz.

Since the OP has several 45/70's I wouldnt be suggesting a 444. They are both heavy weight calibres and have similar capability. The 348 is quite specialized however its performance would make it a better stable mate of the 45/70. However the OP seems to be looking for something he can use more. Perhaps a 92 style rifle in 44mag or 45LC might be a better choice?

A levergun that punches above its weight is the 375 Winchester but it is somewhat obscure these days. A BB94 weighs as much as a light 92 in 44, is really easy to carry and points well. It has modest powder consumption and produces plenty of power.

444 Marlin is a heck of a lever rifle,348 Winchester is more valuable and decent rifle too, but my vote for a big bore if that's what you feel you need is a 45-70 reason easier to find ammo,but if you want long range accuracy,alot of true power buy a magnum in a Browning BLR.

That would make a huge difference. It's tough to get horned up over a cartridge with no cases or ammo available.

gotta love hornady and their dedication to keeping the old cartridges alive.

Wonder if this ^^ means there might be another run of 71s in production soon?

I think Starline is selling 348 cases now.

Yes, but the price is "higher than giraffe p*ssy"!!!

If it's in original condition it would be worth keeping the Win 71 as it is or selling it and using a Browning 71 for your conversion. The Browning 71 and 1886 models had none of the drawbacks the later Winchester models had with rebounding hammer and tang safety. If you want the biggest possible, you should consider a 50/110 for your conversion instead of the 50 Alaskan. Starline make brass for both.

I sold my first year Marlin Guide 45-70 after I bought my Browning M71 Carbine. Just totally different pieces IMO with the latter winning for me.

Once I ever acquire a 71 im sure my 1895gs will sit in the safe more. I have 4 45/70's and love them all but I really want a 71. The money just gets allocated to other life needs at the moment. Ive got 100 new 348 brass and when/if Hornady makes some ammo I will stock up. I want the Browning carbine as well. Already have a Williams peep for one and hopefully draw a speedgoat tag next year and put it to the test

The 1955 Win 71 I have isn't totally original (recoil pad added), and is only about in 85% condition, so off it goes to get modified to .50 Alaskan. As for the 50/110, if you look at ballistics tables, not much (if any) can be gained by it over the .50 Alaska; and perhaps even a downside as the longer 50/110 case may prevent longer heavier bullets from being used due to being too long an OAL shell. At least that's what I've come to believe.

I would like to have both someday.

The 50-110 is more powerful than the 50Ak if you load it to its potential. There's not much published data to allow a proper comparison. You can get 2100-2200 fps from a 500gr pill out of a 50-110. The potential is certainly there if you want that sort of power. If the smith does the conversion properly you can feed bullets with quite wide meplats. When it comes to bullets there's not a lot of suitable jacketed designs, so you really need to cast your own pills. Then you're set. I picked up a couple of moulds from group buys on the Castboolits site.

Truth be told though, an 1886 clone in 45/70 fed the right bullets is a very versatile large calibre levergun cartridge.

348 is a better long range performer. But I use lever guns for shorter ranges so I like the 444

Marlin's 444 replaced the .348 as a powerful levergun for mid range big game hunting. A primary advantage is that this rifle is easily scoped due to side ejection. I for one would not consider a .348 rifle even if priced the same as a 444 because of the scope factor.

Sherwood

Let me preface my remarks by saying that I am a long time 348 WCF fan and I still hunt my grandfather's old Model 71. If you have a 45-70 (which I'm also a big fan of) is there any thing to be gained by going with a 444 Marlin? The 348 WCF common bullet range from 180 - 250 grains work on just about anything you care to hunt in NA and the 45-70 with 300 to 405 grain bullets will as well. Heck get a Winchester/Browning Model 71 in 348 WCF and find a nice Marlin "WaffleTop" in 30-30 WCF or 32 Win. Special to go with your 45-70 and you have your bases covered.

You can never have too many great lever guns.

StarchedCover

Never seen a .348, nor shot a .444. I do have several 45-70 Marlins and nothing wrong with them. If you want a hard hitter, try one of the Winchester/Browning 1895 rifles in .405 Win.

348 Winchester, because one of my 45-70's is a Shiloh Sharps and accurately heaves 530grs of paper patched lead to 500 yards, the other is an original '86 that fires 500gr grease groove bullets to 1240 fps with black powder and is good for around 125 yards max, 200 yard steel banging is cake with the 348 and bolt peep.

A 71 and a 95 in 30-06 are on my short list. I think I have 4 45/70's so im good for now, but you can never have too many lever guns or cool old cowboy guns.

How about the original 444? Winchester had the 40-65 and 40-82 over 130 years ago. .408 and 265 grains with a better sectional density, everything the 444 wants to be...

Always with the "THIS VS THAT"...nothing but a way to get a dust-up going or wax poetic about their favorite toy, or show a picture and say "lookee what I did"...sometimes it's even slightly interesting.

They BOTH have pro's and con's and they BOTH do good jobs...make a decision and go for it. Good grief you can kill any animal on the North American continent with a 22 LR given the right conditions and have a rabbit run off using some cannon if you mess up.

It isn't the rifle, the caliber or the case size that kills, it's bullet placement.

I'm not overly impressed with the case taper of the 348, I would do a Turnbull or Ackley version if someone would give me one, but that won't stop me from using a "standard" one because I know it will do it's job if I do mine. I have a lot of rifles and extra barrels but the .348 never interested me...I went for the .338 then .358 calibers on several standard and wildcat cases. THEY work just as well.

If you like the .348 and just HAVE to have one then go for it...it isn't magical just workable...and you'll be happy.

Same with the other large cals...they ALL have warts and some are even pretty.

Good Hunting

LOL, I have a year model '94 1886 Short Rifle in 40-65, it's a stoner with that bullet over a big charge of OE FFG Black.

I have a 71 Deluxe and a Frantz Sodia O&U both in 348 Win. The 71 is a deer killer and the Frantz Sodia has never had a deer in it's sights since I got it years ago. Just not a very lucky gun. If you want to shoot against it at the range, bring something that shoots good and has a scope on it or you might leave some dollars on the table. I also have a Marlin 444. I have shot through from point of shoulder to the back leg bone with it in a 200 plus pound deer and used the Hornady load. A heavier bullet might have made it out of the rear of the hip, Might not have. It was a quick kill and a long drag anyway and I am happy with that load. I think a lot of both rounds and use them in areas where I don't want to track a deer very far. Whether I pick ip a 348 or a 444 is based on whether I want to use a scope or not. It's that simple.

I've owned both, still have a .444 and probably will get another .348 in the future. The .348 used to be crippled by lack of brass, but now that Hornady makes it the situation isn't too bad.

The .348 is by far the more useful round for the hunter. The Browning M71s are better guns too. A rear peep sight is recommended.

How so? The 444 Marlin zeroed at 125-135 yards with any FP killer load in 225gr-335gr is easily a 200 yard cartridge on large game. I doubt the 348 Win, in reality, will handle big game any better at 200 yards. It’s not like the 348 Win shoots any flatter or hits any harder at 200 yards and it’s not like the 348 Win is readily or effectively used past 200 yards either. Only one man’s opinion and user of the 444 Marlin.

There's a pretty big difference between the two. The .348 is a couple hundred feet per second faster at the same bullet weight, and the sectional densities are much higher with the .348. While both have somewhat limited bullet options, the .348 has the 250gr Weldcore which is excellent on everything in NA, and for which there is no equivalent in the .444.

I have nothing against the .444 (and enjoy shooting them) but it's just not as capable. The Marlins are also not as nice a guns as the Browning M71s and even original Winchesters. The .444 does generally recoil less if that's a concern though.

The 444 Marlin shoots 250 grain loads at 2,500 fps (handload with my last batches of the old 250 HG Partition it is a real killer with pass through penetration on deer), Hornady 265 gr load at 2,350 fps, the 348 Win at around 2,375 fps with 250 gr loads, how's the 348 Win 200 fps faster. It can't keep up with the 444 Marlin when shooting heavy bullets at large game, CorBon 280 gr FP (2,250 fps great load I used on two elk) a 335 gr. GCHC (2,100). The Barnes 300 gr Buster at 2,150 fps is pure penetration in the 444 Marlin and I highly doubt the Weldcore would prove to be a better load than the Barnes on large game including big bears. I don't own a Marlin rifle, mine is a Win 94 Big Bore with 1-12 twist. Accurately shooting 355 gr and 405 gr Beartooth GCHC at 1,950 fps and 1,790 fps. That is something the 348 Win can not match. Again, both are at best 200 yard chambers. On big game I will choose the 444 Marlin any day for multi purpose 200 yard hunting. Sectional density is meaningless for the most part when shooting heavy FP bullets. And when using the Barnes mono Buster or Beartooth GCHC, both will out penetrate anything the 348 Win can throw due to weight. I don't know what you mean by "pretty big difference" or "capable", but when looking at Taylor KO, the 444 Marlin is well ahead of anything the 348 Win can produce.

The .348 has 10 grains H20 more case capacity with a seated bullet and the 1886/71 has a higher pressure limit than the Marlin or 94 Big Bore. The .348 win is simply the more powerful round, and it's not really close. That's physics.

Llama Bob - With all due respect what you are saying is not grounded in physics at all. First the 348 Win holds 75 gr/H2O, while the 444 Marlin holds 69 gr/H20, by all accounts that 6 gr/H20, not 10 gr/H20. Second, the 348 Winchester has never operated on an 1886/71 action above SAAMI specified MAP of 40,000 CUP (41,000 CIP) same as the 33 WCF. It is regarded that the 1886/71 action can handle somewhat above 50,000 CUP. Your premise that the 348 Win operates at a higher pressure on a more stout action is just not true. The 444 Marlin operates at a SAAMI MAP of 44,000 CUP (45,000 CIP) and the 94 BB action is rated at 52,000 CUP and there are several Marlin rifles chambered in the 444 Marlin so they can handle the pressure generated by the 444 as well. The 444 Marlin is loaded to higher pressure simply because it projects less area and therefore less bolt thrust with a 0.514" diameter rim., while the 348 Win creates more bolt thrust due to its larger area from a 0.610 diameter rim.

Lastly your rational for stipulation that the 348 Win is more powerful by virtue of holding more powder does not take into account any real physics such as bullet diameter, bullet weight, hence TKO/stopping ability. How can the 348 Win be more powerful when it lags behind the 444 Marlin by a full 10 points with top loads (a 30 TKO vs 40 TKO on the 444 Marlin). That's like comparing a 300 Wby 200 gr. at 3,000 fps and a 358 Norma Mag 250 gr at 2,850 fps, the Wby holds 99 gr/H2O while the 358 Norma holds 88 gr/H2O. Is the Wby more powerful, well...no it has a TKO of 26, the 358 Norma Mag is at 36 TKO. Frontal area and bullet weight have a lot to do with the power of a cartridge. If they didn't why bother using 400 gr 416s and 500 gr 458s on cape buff and elephant, why not just use a 300 or 338 Magnum, reason is they lack stopping power, therefore not as powerful. Again I'm not sure what you mean by more powerful as it translates into ballistic and success in the game field, maybe I'm missing something. I realize the 348 Win is romanticized greatly because of the Win 71 rifle and it is a great cartridge but in reality is no more powerful than the 356 Win or 358 Win. Again no disrespect, just questioning your rational on the comparison.

Had you bothered to actually read what I wrote rather than running straight to this blather, you wouldn't have missed a key part: "with the bullet seated". Only case capacity not occupied by the bullet is useful.

It's still physics, you're still wrong, and that's really all there is to it. It's OK if you want to be wrong of course - that's your problem. TKO is a made up number that has nothing to do with the power of a cartridge.

Sorry Bob you have the blather title with wrong nonfactual blather on pressure (both on actions and cartridges). Show me a 348 Win load and 444 Marlin load with 250 grain bullets whereby the 348 Win holds 10 more grains of powder charge. Facts please not bias.

Just found this post and it was extremely information packed.
I own a 1954 71 deluxe which I have yet to take to the range, a 1974 Marlin 444S and a 2012 Marlin 444 XLR, both of which have been to the range.
I also have 2 Browning BLRs in 358, one if which has been to the range.
At the end of the day, all of them are fully capable of taking everything on this continent out to a minimum of 200 yards and certainly further.
It really boils down to bullet selection and shot placement.
I doubt I'll ever take the 71 deep into the woods as it is long and heavy compared to the others and my vision limits my shooting to about 100 yards due to either peep or open sights on the 71 though as I understand it, a receiver mounted scope mount was made at one time.
I also own several Savage levers, but nothing larger than the 30 cals.
Between the Marlins and the Brownings, I will choose the Brownings over the Marlins every time.
The Browning actions lend themselves to a higher degree of accuracy IMHO.
I do have a Marlin 308MXLR that is a tack driver though.
I haven't taken the 30-30, 300 Savage, or 303 Savage levers out yet, but my scoped 1935 99 in 250 Savage and scoped 1964 99 in 308 are also tack drivers.
I can easily shoot MOA at 100 yards with a scope and my handloads.
Sorry... Way off topic...
My point is that the only way you'll ever find out which works best for you is to at least try both if you have friends willing to share, or if you can get away with it, buy one of each.
You will never be disappointed with either so long as you do your part.
One can never have too many.
Thank you all for the great information.

I have a 348 that as of yet hasn’t been shot enough since it’s new to me. I have enough brass now to keep it fed for probably as long as I live.

I had a 444 Marlin that I sold in about 1988 or 1989. The 444 wouldn’t feed the cast bullets I have molds for. The bullet selection for the 444 was pretty poor in my opinion. I have no desire to own another 444 unless it would be in a 1885 Winchester or perhaps a modified Jap Ariska. I think the 45-70 is a more useful cartridge than the 444 and I have a Marlin and a 1886 in 45-70.

I had a 358 BLR that a friend pried out of my fingers. I liked the 358 enough that I re-barreled a 700 to 358. I don’t think he has ever shot that 358??

The op asked 444 or 348. Probably the main reason I’d pick the 348, is that I like the Browning ‘71 more than the Marlin 444. Secondly, I think the 348 is a pretty good cartridge. Further I prefer classic cartridges.

If I could include the 358 in the choice of three and could only own one rifle and restricting it to those three, it would be the 358. Having said that I like the Browning ‘71 more than the BLR and I don’t have to play the game “if I could only have one rifle”.

If I were living in Alaska, I might have that ‘71 re-bored/chambered to 450 Alaskan. But is the 450 Alaskan any better than the 45-90?


.

If you have not read the article on the Browning ‘71 348 December 2001 by Steve Gash, it’s worth buying via back order; I think it’s a very good article.

If you can shoot a peep sight, the 348 Win.
The Marlin 444 is easy to top with a scope.
PLEASE don't ruin a 348 with that atrocious side mount scope.

Prefer the 444. Marlin is lighter than M71 and easily scoped if wanted. I have a 444 from 77 and hunt with it once in a while. It is smooth , accurate and has a good trigger.

I'd take a 45-70 over wither but between the 444 & 348 I'd go 444 just because most levers chambered in it can be scoped. Not so with a 348 Win.

Sold the model 71 450 Alaskan

Still have an Winchester 71 348
2 of the Browning 20" model 71 in 348 and 348 Ackley
1of the Browning rifles model 71
1 Pedersoli 71 45-70
1 Browning 1895
Pile of Marlins

Leverguns in 338 Marlin Xpress, 33win, 348win, 358win, 356win, and 375win are probably some of the finest hunting rifles ever pieced together. They have enough bullet diameter and weight for larger game and enough range to be useful. It's a shame they didn't become more successful. Now folks use that neutered 350 Legend and 360 Buckspammer, each of which is truly "weak sauce" compared to the old stuff that was already developed.

Either way you are going down the rabbit hole so far as ammo.
Reloading is a must. Hornady no longer makes the 200 jfp in .338" but Hawk Bullets makes them for much less than you will pay for NOS if you can find them. 444 isn't much better.
FWIW, I find the 24" barrel of the 348 rifles to be well balanced.

To me, the 444 is pretty close to the 45-70 when loaded similarly. The 45-70 can use heavier bullets on the top end.

The 348 fills a slightly different ballistic niche than the 444 and 45-70, albeit all are used on basically the same animals. All will work just fine.

I load my 45-70's with heavy bullets, my 348 with 200's or 250's. It's just another way to the same end.

For me, hard to not consider the rifle used. My 1895 Marlin from 1977, my Trapdoor rifle from 1885, and my Shiloh Sharps Business Rifle from 2009 all handle and shoot differently. My Winchester 71 348 from 1955 adds a different dimension distinct enough from my 45-70's that makes hunting with it very enjoyable.

Regards,
Manny

I have a Winchester m71 in .348 and a Marlin Cowboy version in 45-70 and love both . I have never owned a 444 and have never wanted one. If I was only gonna have one it would be the Winchester. I like it better in every way. Could care less about how the three different cartridges stack up against each other, the .348 will kill anything in North America as long as I do my part and that's all any cartridge will do.

Having a few pre-war M-71s in 348 WCF, an early Marlin 45-70, AND a pre-war 71 in 45 Alaskan-probably have
some user-owner experience with the calibers discussed. As to ballistics and bullets, the 348 will be
most satisfactory up to 200 yards.
Range is a factor. Elmer Keith did the testing 75 years ago.
The 444 is limited by 265 gr bullets and range. It will come down to
purpose and intended use of the rifle. A warm loaded 45-70 will keep up
with a 45-90. A 45-90 will almost equal a 450 Alaskan.

A 450-348 like Ackley's version will out perform a 45-90, but
recoil and rifle modifications might discourage many hunters.
I prefer the Winchester/Browning action 86/71 to the Marlin 1895.

I have a 444P that is my go to. Shooting 290 Grain Bear Tooth Cast Bullets makes sure makes me smile!

I have a 94 win. big bore in 444 and makes me smile too with those same bullets.

Both ! I own a triple 4 and an original 71 is on my bucket list. They both ooze cool !

I had a 444 and sold it in 1980 or 1981. I was disappointed in bullet selection. I bought a 320 mold for it and it didn’t shoot well. It’s limited in bullet selection and range. But if the range isn’t a factor and the bullets are OK for the user, go for it.
I have a couple 45-70’s and a 45-90. My Marlin 45-70 is the one I shoot the most, the 45-90 and the other 45-70 are Winchesters, I like them a lot but the 45-90 is heavy. If I were to hunt bison, the 45-90 would be my choice and with heavy cast bullets. My oldest son has his eyes on the 1886 45-70 and I’m keeping that one pretty close to as new. I suspect that fewer than 100 rounds have been shot in it.
I have a Browning model 71. I like it a lot and I’m buying jacketed bullets for it when I find a decent price for them. The 45’s do not need jacketed bullets for any kind of game. The 348 is pretty good with cast and it shoots a couple of them very well, but I would probably use jacketed for dangerous game in the 348.

Not All are bone crunchers on big game. I sold the .348 and .444, not because of the cartridge but more due to the platform, my .45-70 is a Guide gun and is simply better handling than the other two rifles were with the longer barrels."


It is interesting that appearance does not always equal personal performance. For me, the Win 1895 .405 is a better fit than any other big bore lever guns. It is also second only in power to the 45-90 in lever guns. My 1886 45-90 Ele load was 450 grain NF solid at 2150 fps MV - frontal brain shot went through head and into body. DRT



Taken with 405 WCF-

First you get a supply of bullets and brass, then say I need a gun to shoot these up!

I have a bunch of 45-70 stuff, so guess what lever gun I would buy?

My recently acquired waffle top 32 Special and Browning 71 are the last two levers I'd part with. There are a few still to go down the road but these two will stick around. At least until I change my mind.

I once killed a hog with a borrowed .444 and it did the job.

I have several .45-70’s, never had the itch for a .444, although it’s a good round. To me that would be duplication with another set of dies, brass, etc.

My next size down is a .358 Win pre-64 FWT.

DF

Well, guess I forgot about my .375 H&H M-70 as the next size down. I traded my .404J.

DF

I wish Hornady would not have kicked these two to the curb. IIRC they quit making two of the best bullets for these. I still have about three hundred 265gr. fp. for the 444.

Hornady seems to have that rep. It’s dangerous to have a fav Horn bullet. They’ll throw it to the curb.

DF

I bought one of the Lee sizers for .348 but have since sold the gun. If interested in it, contact me.

I just like the .444 better both are very good

^^^^

The model 71 rifle is stellar and 348 is a interesting but it's too rare and expensive to get ammo or components. The Browning BLR 358 I'd one can aquire one is an easier solution but there's also another close competitor and maybe better. The 338 Federal. This uses the same weights as the old 348win and there's far more bullets available. I have an old steel frame BLR with the new style magazine that I could have rebored.

It’s not that difficult to find brass and bullets. I bought brass here in the classifieds and on line. I have Hornady, Barnes and a couple smaller company’s bullets. Then I bought cast bullet, which shot very well for me and with iron sights. (50 meter groups)





It shoots Barnes bullets well too. I have tried other bullets and loads yet. But these bullets are easy to find.

few years ago i purchased a Winchester 71 348 special " they were not called deluxe" mine is about 99 % from a very old gentleman who knew i would take care of his pride and joy his 348 and now its a safe queen . myself i always wished Browning would have manufactured some BLR`S in a 338 Win. mag. S.S. alloy frame , my reason is with the 338 Win mag. cartridge this cartridge would do well at close range on an animal and still do well out 400 yards or maybe farther , and brass for a 338 Win. mag. is very easy for me to get too.

I sold the 444 long ago. I could not find written records, I probably lost it on an old computer that failed, but I found a couple of targets:

444 Marlin, 265 grain Hornady, 45.5 grains IMR4198, 1.05 MOA
444 Marlin, 310 NEI (cast - no gas check), 42 grains RE7, 11.46 MOA

I suppose that Hornady bullet would have worked fine. I wanted a cast bullet shooter and I couldn't get heavy cast bullets to work well. I know I shot a lot of loads through that 444 but these were the only targets I could find.

People that can't handload blame the rifle for its performance. I own a lot of 444s and all of them shoot great. They will shoot anything from a 240gn to a 405gn. My favorite is the 265gn and 290gn. If you take advantage of the bullet molds available, you can cast very good performing bullets. The myth about them not shooting cast bullet is perpetrated by those that can't be bothered to learn how to feed them. The Marlin 444 is a much stronger gun then the marlin 45-70 and is much better shooting. One thing it is not........is a stretched 44 magnum cartridge. I usually let the b.s. slide when ignorant people push it on the internet, but when they repeat it several times in one post and say it as if it is a fact and they know what they are talking about, then I feel compelled to speak up. My guns will take anything from mice to Mastodons, Bigfoot to black helicoptors, and do it without dislocating my shoulder. There are only two kind of people. Those that shoot 444s and those that wish they did.

Back when 444’s came out there weren’t near as many available molds as there are now.

i had a choice between the 444 or the 405 Win in a MGM barrel in the TC Encore. the biggest difference was the brass, i had a hard time finding the 405 Win brass, so i bought the 444 Marlin in a 23" MGM heavy factory barrel. i have i think, around 500-600 pieces of Reminton brass and only 200 pieces are for reloading. the rest is because i am hoarder!!! Starline and Hornady makes the 444 brass, but if you get Hornady make sure you got the long brass, the short 444 is for Hornady's gummy tips. i think i have 300-400 265gr Hornady FN, but i got into cast bullets and i just plain forgot about them. the deer they killed disagree tho. MGM does a 1 in 20" twist and i think that someone on another forum had a custom mold in 450 or 460gr cast bullet and he shot it quite well (also a 1 in 20 twist), 1" to 1 1/2" group at 100 yards (5 shots). it's just too much cast fer me.

i have shot deer using 265gr Hornady FN, 255gr Keith type, 275gr Ranch Dog, 280gr LFN GC, 280gr WFN GC and 300gr SAECO FN GC. the velocity goes from 1600fps thru 2300fps, depends on what bullet. i use alot of Reloder 7. H4198 comes second, while 2400/tuft of Dacron comes third. it can do a 1/2" to 1" group of 5 shots at 100 yards (all bullets). i can find many cast bullets online, including heavy for caliber. someday i'll find a mold that is either 310gr WFN GC or 350gr Ranch Dog and then i'll try heavy for caliber bullets.

just for fun, i tried 250gr penta HP, 200gr and 240gr Hornady XTP with Trail Boss at 50 yards and it was a blast!!! i had 25 or 30 of 200gr XTP's that i loaded with TB. at 50 yards the 25 or 30 XTP's were around 2" group.

the 280gr WFN GC with Reloader 7 that goes 1937fps is my favorite followed by the 300gr SAECO FN GC with 2400/tuft of Dacron that goes 1624fps.

i have a 45-70 in a Handi rifle, but i gave it to oldest son to hunt hogs and deer with. he lives out of state in Fayetteville, NC. i went hunting and killed some deer with the 45-70, but it just didn't feel right.

i know many cast bullet 444 shooters and most of them are Marlin lever action guys with a 1 in 38 twist. they size bullets to .432". it depends on the gun, but they shoot 350gr Ranch Dogs and they don't have problem. they have a problem when the weight is more than 350gr.

i never had a hankering for the 348 Win, but i like the Winchester m71 but in rare 33 WCF.

The '86 was made in .33 Winchester not the m71. The .348 is a better cartridge than.33 Winchester .

the '71 wasn't just 348 Win, but the factory did an extremely small amount of the 33 WCF and 45-70.

Yes it was, the 71 was only made in 348

I’ve read elsewhere that there were a very few other cartridges that were chambered in the ‘71. But just because I saw it on the internet…
JorgeI you might be right, as you normally are, but I’m not positive that the ‘71 wasn’t chambered for a very few other other cartridges. I’ve never seen one and I’m not an expert on Winchester’s!

I read there was one model 71 made in 45-70. Never heard of one made in .33 WCF

There’s more knowledge these days and more mould options too. It wasn’t all that long ago that most 44 moulds were primarily designed for 44 mag revolvers and these have different SAAMI specs to 44 mag rifles. Rifles generally have larger groove diameters and slower twist barrels.

The reason you couldn’t achieve decent accuracy with cast in your 444 was likely soft alloy (for the speed), no GC or the bullet diameter was too small. Any of these reasons can results in poor accuracy with cast. I was at my wits end with my B92 in 44 mag trying get it to shoot cast. B92’s in 44mag have rifling that is similar to Marlin microgroove barrels, ie shallow multiple groove rifling and a very generous groove diameter. After I cracked the code it would match or exceed jacketed bullet accuracy.

I had over 20 years experience with casting bullets at the time. I cast bullets for my brother’s cast bullet manufacturing business. His bullets sold nation wide as advertised in Shotgun News.I know how to cast bullets.
But like you said the molds back then were mainly for 44 magnums. They worked fine for the 444, but I wanted a heavy bullet and settled for the only mold I could find. Those heavy bullets shot extremely well in my 44 Magnums. But I tried casting softer and harder, sizing less, no sizing, different lubes, different powders, and varied the velocity to get that bullet to shoot - no luck. It was as if the bullets were not stabilizing.

But it wasn’t just about cast bullets, but the jacketed bullets then were slim pickens. Yeh the 265 grain Hornady was available, but that was about it. That might have worked OK on big bears, but I didn’t have the confidence that it would. I didn’t want the 444 for white tail deer. That 444 with available bullets would have been great for white tail. The friend that bought it from me planned on using it on white tail though and he was happy with it.

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/the-shootist-winchester-model-71/99226

"A carbine version was offered with a 20-inch barrel, and an extremely small number of 71s were sold in .33 WCF.


Today, few Model 71 owners take these extremely collectable rifles to the field, and most live on in fine collections."

November 30, 2011
By Richard Venola


https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...chester-71-chambered-in-45-70-and-33-wcf

If you already have 45-70's, I don't know what a 444 would get you. It's about 3/4 the power and essentially the same trajectory. Now the 348 would be something different, so that's the route I'd go. But brass availability is a thing these days and not likely to improve anytime soon.

I agree regardin 45-70 and 444. I however, found 348 brass fairly quickly. Bought some here on the fire from Shrapnel too.

From what I know there were 4 model 71s, in .33, 3 in 45-70 and 2 in .308. The 45-70 sold for $45,000 at Amoeskeag Auctions, March 2023

I would prefer a 356 Win

With so many cartridges available it comes down to the gun.
I had a Win 71 and just loved the way it carried and shot. Not ballistically superior to most of my other levers. But high on the "cool factor".
Tax bill forced me to sell it. I still have the reloading gear, just in case.

Took me less than 30 days to find and buy over 500 rounds of new Winchester brass and another 250 once fired Super X. Cost me $400 give or take . Also bought 4 boxes of new factory ammo and 7 vintaqe boxes.

I’m a tad late to the game but I’ll play. Anyway the 348 Win had its place but if it wasn’t for that wonderful model 71 it would have been forgotten long ago. The 444 however has never really been optimized for several reasons. (1); it was down loaded for lever actions requiring flat tipped bullets so 265 grains was the limit for most shooters. That’s still a lot of bullet but trajectory was nothing to rave about. (2); the early factory loads were short heavy revolver bullets (3); bullet casters could size for Marlin’s ‘ Micro ‘ rifling and get heavier bullets but you really needed custom molds, but you still couldn’t shoot spire point or bore riding bullet designs, (4); the Marlin rate of twist was considered too slow at 1-28 for longer heavier bullets. Ackley proved 1-18 or 1-20 best. So anyway this cartridge came with lots of built in limitations not to mention the fact that Bill Ruger’s #1’s and #3’s were never offered in 444. That in itself is a puzzling mystery since the falling block action is so well suited to straight walled cartridges. According to Warren Center ( Thompson Center ) Mr. Ruger was in a pissing contest with Marlin’s management and refused the cartridge. Must have been serious cause after all the years it was never offered. Had a Ruger falling block been offered the factories would have no doubt loaded much more powerful ammo.

Now I have a one of a kind Ruger #3 that my late Brother had Ackley build for him. He was pretty close with Mr. Ackley and was talked into chambering it in 444. It was a project that Ackley wanted to tackle and the deal was he could use it to test with and sell to my Brother for a deal. It’s got a 25” barrel, #4 contour and a 18” twist. It shoots phenomenally holding 1/2” at 100 yds and 2.5” at 200 yards. The big 300 grain Barnes bullets make 2250 fps with a compressed load of H335. Being a single shot, pointy bullets like Hawks become legitimate 300 yard killers. So with the correct rifle, some handloading and decent bullets the 444 becomes a much different animal. I’ve taken two moose ( blown both shoulders out ) and one cow elk with this rifle so I’m sold. Anyway I prefer straight walled cartridges as I’m convince bottlenecks are just a fad

Rick

I recently had a Ruger K1B rebarreled to 444 Marlin. It has a 22" Douglas Premium barrel instead of the Lilja my local smith normally uses. So far I've only had time to run Nosler 240 JSPs through it with a middle of the road load of Benchmark but wow, what a promising shooter. It put 6 rounds into a single ragged hole at 50 yards while I was breaking it in and getting the scope on paper. This load averaged right around 2200 fps. I have yet to see what it will do at 100 yards, or with the Hawk 275 spitzers I've had good luck with in a 44 mag 1885 low wall.

The same smith texted me today to tease me with a pic of the 24" .348 Win barrel, also a Douglas, he put on a No. 1S for me just this week. I expect to get the finished product next week and have a few boxes of the Hawk 230 spitzers waiting to load for it after I try some of the stuff I shoot in a Browning 71. Really looking forward to this rifle since I've been waiting for it for some time.

As somebody said on another thread about new cartridges, if you want to try something, spin a new barrel on a gun you already have. I've had several No. 1s rebarreled for this very reason. None of mine have the pedigree of your Ackley, or course, but they are so much fun.

Good luck with the two. Great cartridges.

My vote is 348 all day long.

This debate always casts the 348 WCF as a much better chamber than the 444 Marlin, it’s not, it’s just different. Its somewhat like comparing a 375 H&H to a 458 Win Mag, both excellent for their intended purpose. The 444 Marlin has a 23% greater frontal area over the 348 WCF, the 458 Win Mag has a 22% greater frontal area over the 375 H&H. Obviously the 444 Marlin, 375 H&H and 458 Win Mag can utilize telescopic sights, the 348 WCF on a 71 platform would need a scout set up to do that, most do not drill into their prized 71 barrel tops.

So in comparison for heavy game like elk, moose and brown bear (I won’t get into all the .429 bullet types and weights) the 444 Marlin can utilize about 30+ types from 200 gr - 355 gr, the 348 Win may have about 3 types from 200 gr - 250 gr. So which is more versatile, especially with telescopic sight use at 200 yards on game listed above?

Back to comparisons, let’s use a 250 gr Barnes in the 348 WCF and a 335 gr Rimrock HCGC in the 444 Marlin. Let’s look at a 150 yard shot on game above with a 125 yard zero.

Remember you have an 85 gr weight advantage and a 23% greater frontal area with the 444 Marlin:

@2,350fps,ME 348 WCF =3,065 ft-lbs E
@1,866fps@150 yds, 348 WCF =1,933 ft-lbs E

@2,100fps,ME 444 Marlin =3,280 ft-lbs E
@1,624fps@150 yds,444 Marlin=1,961 ft-lbs E

@ 150 yards the 348 WCF shoots about an 1” flatter and drifts 1.5” less than the Marlin. Not a big deal considering the 444 Marlin in a 336 or 94 AE platform will have telescopic sights for significantly better judgment in bullet placement.

Back to the 375 H&H and 458 Win Mag comparison. We have the 375 shooting 300 gr Barnes and the 458 shooting a 400 gr Barnes. At 150 yds and 175 yard zero.

@2,600fps,ME 375 H&H =4,502 ft-lbs E
@2,139fps@150 yds 375 H&H =3,049 ft-lbs E

@2,350fps,ME 458 WM =4,904 ft-lbs E
@1,866fps@150 yds 458 WM =3,092 ft-lbs E

@150 yards the 375 H&H shoots +1.09” and drifts 3.2”, the 458 WM is +1.46” and drifts 4.2”. Again not a big deal.

All are great big game chambers, but the real question is when comparing them what does the added bullet weight and frontal area offer? Throughout most uses it is reasonable and proven throughout many applications they offer significantly deeper penetration and much greater wounding and blood loss trauma.

My point is do not underestimate the ability of the 444 Marlin when loaded heavy, it is a bone crusher with similar attributes when used on thin skin game as the 458 Win Mag is on thin and thick skin game at 100-150 yds. A 335 gr HCGC will out penetrate any 348 WCF load hands down with a significantly greater size wound channel and severe trauma/blood loss. Just like the 458 WM will do over the 375 H&H at 100-150 yards. All the above will kill just fine, but the wider bores will offer plenty of reach at 150 yards and a better solution to close encounters with their heavier bullets and greater frontal area. There is no substitute for those two advantages at 150 yards.

And with better flying bullets out of a single shot it changes the numbers and reach into another bracket. With a full case of H 355 capped with with 265 grain Hawk round nose bullets at around 2300 fps it becomes a legitimate 225 to possibly 250 yard killer

Rick

This is making me want a Browning 71. But I need to sell of my Remington 673

348win all day long or my 348 Ackley. If I'm using any 44cal it's going to be my Marlin 44mag carbine. If I need to shoot a tube of lipstick I have several 45-70's.

I don't hate the 444, I just fail to see what it brings to the table. What is a 444 going to do that an smaller 454casull or 460s&w not going to accomplish, let alone a 45-70?

You will love it. Mine came from a PA native

It was was a graduation present to Bob Bell in 1942…….got to hunt it 4 years later he did….…busy in Europe …..

It had the barrel shortened. And it “was hunted”. His big game rifle when he went west after the war. Ear and elk and such. Hunted all over the continent.

He became a writer and did the scope section of Gun Digest with John Amber. Then editor of Pennsylvania Game News.

He was a hunter. Hated fishing. And a serious shooter.

He wrote about the use of that 71 many times. He hunted it working in a logging camp. When he went into the thick stuff he took it.

I read GD since the early 60s. Loved scopes. So I read his other articles……and wanted a 71.

Moved back to PA from CA and talking to my brothers best friend and it got to guns.
“I hunt with Bob all the time….my wife is his daughter’s best friend”. Says he.

Well Bob and I enjoyed scotch and guns. His 71 is still the slick action it was in 1942…. And I already know who it goes to when my time comes.

Sorry for the rambling…….all 3 calibers will work. The 71 action and good times are hard to beat.

Pretty cool! I grew up reading Bob Bell

I just bought another 100 each 348 brass. They seem to be easier to find than 444 perhaps?

My favorite load so far for my '71 is:

348 Win, Browning 71, 220 Barnes FP 9 ½, 59.5 grains RE19, 0.888" 5 shot group at 54 yards or 1.57 MOA, 2,137 FPS (iron sights)

Sighted in at 3" above zero at 100 yards:


Take a 444 (from load data):
265 Hornady FNSP IMR IMR-4198 45.3 2,066

A 265 gr .430” bullet load at 2,066 fps, what a joke. Even Hornady’s over-the-counter load had a MV of 2,350 fps for the 265 gr FP 444 Marlin load. Also, how many game animals have been taken at 300 yards with a 348 Win and open sights? Why not compare to a 444 Marlin loaded with a 280 gr load at 2,250 fps (CorBon load), how about a 335 gr load at 2,125 fps (that’s an Underwood Ammo Load) out at 200 yards. Showing a bit of bias towards the 348 Win.

I looked at Load data and that was the fastest 265 grain load listed.

The point is the 444 loses energy fast with poorer SD and BC. It also has more of a rainbow trajectory. What’s the upside to that?

I have shown what was a typical load. Sorry your favorite didn’t show to well.

I have loads that get almost 1,000 ft-lbs more energy at the muzzle than what you’re showing. Again are you killing game at 300 yards with a 348 Win with no telescopic sights? Both Win and Marlin rifles in 444 Marlin can utilize telescopic sights, at 200 yards there’s no rainbow involved. Inside 200 yards loaded heavy to its potential the 444 Marlin is a crusher. Again, 23% more frontal area and roughly 100 grains more bullet weight for the 444 Marlin over the 348 Win.

I had a 348 Win and now have a Marlin 444. The 348 Win was a joy to carry but I need the scope. Either one is plenty for deer.
My 348 Win reloading stuff is in the classifieds. Hope to sell before I break down and buy a Browning 71 that I don't have use for....

i use a 280gr WNGC and Reloder 7 that goes 1937fps in my 444 Marlin and TC Encore with a 23" MGM barrel. i have done
2300fps+ with a 275gr Ranch Dog, 280gr WFN and LFN GC with Reloder 7. i have also done 2300fps+ on a 265gr Hornady FN with Reloder 7 and H4198.

i use the 444 for 100 yards and less for deer and black bear. mostly they are shot at 30 - 40 yards. they either fall down or jog about 20ish yards and then fall down.

if your dead set on using the 444 and maximum loads, then go to Hornady's manual and 265gr FN goes 2200 with Rel7 and H4198 or 265gr FXT with A1680 goes 2300fps.

i never bother with SD or BC when i am shooting deer. all they are, is just a number(s) for guys who shoot at long distances.

my load is quite weak, but i don't have to put up with strong recoil. also i use a Husqvarna m46 in 9.3x57 with a 275gr WFN GC and IMR4895 that goes 1900+/-fps (i haven't chronograph it yet). i think the max load is around 2200fps for the 275gr WFN GC . but why bother, it still puts down deer.

I have owned probably a dozen Winchester Model 71s over 40 years and these .348s have taken everything
from my best 295 pound white tail to a large interior Alaskan bull moose. Nothing shot over 110 yards, as I am an old skool still/stalk hunter.
My remaining pre-war 5 Model 71s include two 450 Alaskans-that wildcat will just about handle anything in North America.

I have heard of the 444 caliber but my preferences are made by Winchester, and I own no lever action rifles with "extra" dangerous safeties.
John Browning designed the 1886 and Winchester refined the 86 and the original Model 71. Hunting is too serious in grizzly country to settle
for less than the best in rifle and caliber.

" Keep your eyes along the skyline and your nose into the wind".

We all have our preferences.
I have scopes on my 99’s and had one on a BLR.
I don’t have any scope on a 1895, 336, 94, 71 etc.

I had a 444 until the late 70’s, early 80’s. I had planned on using different molds I had but nothing worked right. The best load was with a jacketed bullet and I had no desire for that.

The ‘71 I have, shoots bug holes at 50 yards with cast bullets and shoots jacketed bullets well too.

I can’t find any reason to own a 444 anymore. Compared to a 348, there’s no plus for me. Also I have 45-70’s and have lots of cast loads that work well in them.

I’m glad there’s people that like the 444. There’s a lot of cartridges I’d like to see remain available.

If I were to have another 444, it would be on a single shot action and I’d be working with various molds.