Hey guys I just picked up my Winchester 1886 limited edition takedown model. It is chambered and 45-90 Winchester Centerfire. It is a deluxe model and it's half at agonal half round Barrel l. My question is upon inspecting the barrel I noticed that it says 45-90 black powder only. I have noticed that a lot of people on YouTube and cast bullet Forum etc etc are getting 400 grain Speers out a 2200 feet second + safely out of this rifle. My question is an academic one if the 1886 is strong and stronger than the Marlin 1895 and use strong Starline brass why am I limited to Black Powder only which does not interest me in the least bit? I did call Winchester customer service and they gave me the legal safe answer we recommend only what stamped on the barrel however the guy did go further to say that it is a very strong action and so is the Starline brass without letting the cat out of the bag that it is safe to do so even though he never actually stated it. Any opinions on this matter at all thank you

Additionally I have read many many places that you can actually fire any 45-70 government Factory loads through a 45-90 example 350 to 500 grain Buffalo Bore which are loaded to the gills

okay I read and a few other forms that the reason they put that on there is to cover your ass type deal. It's because there is no Sammi specs for the 45-90

Congratulations on your new 1886 and welcome to the 1886 .45-90 cult!

Trade you a pic of my Miroku 1886 TD .45-90 for one of yours!

I couldn't resist!

Here are some more pictures. It now wears a Williams FP peep sight. I did not have to remove the rear sight because the peep "prints" right on top of the buckhorn sight and is covered completely! :

Beautiful rifle. I am such a sucker for take downs.

Thanks

Dang Fotis, that is a great looking rifle!

Looking forward to your range report.

Guy

Fotis - a beautiful rifle.

Fotis said "I read and a few other forms that the reason they put that on there is to cover your ass type deal. It's because there is no Sammi specs for the 45-90"
That is true and I have seen it reported in more than one gun publication.

Go ahead and load 'er up if you like. The hottest loads so far in my "elephant rifle" are 450 grain Kodiak FMJ at 2150 fps MV. Those bullets shoot through bison and cape buffalo sideways; end to end, they give the buff a bad tummy ache. A friend took my 1886 45-90 to Africa and killed an ele, multiple Cape buff, a leopard and some plains game.
I have taken game from blackbuck to bison(with the DG loads) with it. A very accurate, fun gun.

Fotis - that’s a nice rifle. I think the buttplate design will temper your interest in heavy loads! I changed the buttstock out on my Browning 1886 to a shotgun butt style and that made quite a difference to comfort and handling.

The problem with the 45/90 is the lack of published pressure tested loading data. There is plenty around for the 45/70 but high pressure data for the 45/90 is hard to find.

CRS - did you ever have those loads you refer to pressure tested ?

JFE,
Grizzly Cartridge loaded that specific load for our bullet testing Safari and the reported peak pressure was under 40,000 PSI. As you surely know, the modern 1886 is safe above 50,000 psi. I do have and use the Pressure Trace II system for my own hot loads such as my Winchester 1895 .405 WCF 400 grain loads at 2076 fps and 48,000 psi. Those kill Cape Buffalo also; shoot- through from rear rib and out between front legs, leaving big hole in heart.

I can approach or even equal that .458 2.4 performance with VV N133, bu I have plenty of loaded rounds left and so no motivation to load more. The bison I shot with that load went down like a metal target- the bullet went through both shoulders and exited on the off side. Similar performance was reported on Cape buff - shoot- throughs on broadside shots and deep penetration on front or rear end shots(the same as our experience with Texas exotics such as big bison, water buff, watusi, and elk before the safari.) In Africa, It actually knocked down an ele with a 20 yard frontal brain shot, but the FMJ expanded and did not enter the brain. The following shots with NF and Punch bullets did though.

As you may know, I call BS on fear of crescent metal butt plates hurting the shooter when used correctly. This rifle weighs 9.5 pounds empty and does not even cut or hurt from the bench - IF you tuck the metal butt plate into the armpit so the rifle can rise rather than push back. In the field, the barrel comes back down on target with a fresh round in the chamber. Serendipity!

Fotis, please do not touch that beautiful stock with any tool. Just shoot it and enjoy the shooting and the making of other levergunners jealous!

CRS - that’s interesting info on the Pressure Trace system. I wasn’t aware of this system and will look further into it.

On the subject of crescent buttplates I have used a few rifles with crescent buttplates and even have a couple myself. They look traditional and all that, but IMO are totally impractical on a hunting rifle, particularly one that boots. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on the use of crescent buttplates.

JFE
"We’ll just have to agree to disagree on the use of crescent buttplates." Fair enough!
I have no axe to grind on butt plates and I care little how shooters use their rifles. It does pain me though, to see a pretty and useful stock butchered because of recoil fear BEFORE giving it a try with a proper mount.
=======================================================================================
"The problem with the 45/90 is the lack of published pressure tested loading data. There is plenty around for the 45/70 but high pressure data for the 45/90 is hard to find. " All true - not easy, but since when are easy tasks very rewarding?

However, given the same bullet and load, the longer case of the 45-90 should generate lower pressure than the same load in a 45-70.
This load/pressure can be a safe starting place for .45-90 loads.
The Winchester .458 magnum case is 1/10 inch longer than the 45-90 and holds 8-10 percent more volume, establishing an upper limit for .45-90 loads.
Given these two points , even I was able to "guesstimate" where to begin and end.
There are also some good printed ( Authors like Sharpe and like Ken Waters + the Lyman Manual ) sources and online sources of 45-90 load data. The research is part of the fun.

With this amount of reference data on 45-90 loads, any experienced hand loader should be off to a running start loading for the 45-90. Naturally, if said hand loader is unable to read or use a search engine, he may use a custom load service of which there several in the USA.

PS, I also like the 45-70 and have a Beretta .45-70 double rifle and am helping my son pick his first 45-70 lever action. My help is him shooting some light loads in my DR and an 1886 45-70 - he did well and liked making big holes in the targets.

CRS - I agree that a competent reloader could derive loads but I would be cautious of using a 458 Win Mag in any comparison. Apart from the greater capacity, the 458 has an enormous, funnel shaped throat, much greater COL and is loaded to much higher pressures, all of which greatly exceed the simple case capacity difference.

The available published 45/90 data that I have seen is well short of the performance of lever gun loads for the 45/70. It’s like the early days when the 45/70 was reintroduced in stronger rifles back in the 70’s. I recall well Ken Waters’ Handloader article of 1974 on the 45/70. However Ken’s loads then fell short of the pressure tested data that were released years later. Sooner or later a gun scribe will take up the challenge I expect.

JFE,
I am presently reading old posts on this subject because I must promptly load 45-90 ammo for testing the regulation of my soon to be 45-90 DR created from my present 45-70 DR.
In my 1886 45-90, our top African DG load was 450 grain NF FPS at 2150 fps and it knocked down ele and buff with ease. I went with the 450 grain weight due to an increasing number of writers learning that no heavier bullet at no higher velocity is required to kill Ele.

Because the "new" version of my DR may never go to Africa, I am leaning towards using some of my hoard of NF 350 grain SS bullets ( which are a fave of the designer) and getting the velocity to just over 2150 fps.
This is why I am reviewing past and present information on .45-90 Express Loads. I have located good reliable information on the Wolfe Web site such as using 3031 powder to reach 2273 fps with a 350 grain Hornady bullet; just a bit more than needed. I am using VV N133 and have found the burn rate only a bit slower than 3031 and am working on details. Such a load should be good in my .45-90 also and more than potent for anything in NA.

PS Please try the Wolfe load.data.com and see 45-90 Express

JFE,
I am presently reading old posts on this subject because I must promptly load 45-90 ammo for testing the regulation of my soon to be 45-90 DR created from my present 45-70 DR.
In my 1886 45-90, our top African DG load was 450 grain NF FPS at 2150 fps and it knocked down ele and buff with ease. I went with the 450 grain weight due to an increasing number of writers learning that no heavier bullet at no higher velocity is required to kill Ele.

Because the "new" version of my DR may never go to Africa, I am leaning towards using some of my hoard of NF 350 grain SS bullets ( which are a fave of the designer) and getting the velocity to just over 2150 fps.
This is why I am reviewing past and present information on .45-90 Express Loads. I have located good reliable information on the Wolfe Web site such as using 3031 powder to reach 2273 fps with a 350 grain Hornady bullet; just a bit more than needed. I am using VV N133 and have found the burn rate only a bit slower than 3031 and am working on details. Such a load should be good in my 1886 .45-90 also and more than potent for anything in NA.

PS Please try the Wolfe load.data.com and see 45-90 Express

Fotis,
I forgot to mention that the Modern Miroku 1886 45-90 has by design ALWAYS used 45-70 ammo with ease and accuracy. It is my understanding that was a requirement and selling point.
In fact, most of the deer, Pronghorn, and small exotic game my 1886 has taken was with factory Winchester 45-70 300 grain ammo at 1850 fps. Those bullets are Nosler PP and from 45-90 load at 2200 fps kill Leopard in Afrika as well as factory load at 1850 does deer here in Texas.

Correction -previously stated "I am using VV N133 and have found the burn rate only a bit slower than 3031" . Not so!

I have found that different powder burn rate tables do not always agree !
Some have shown 3031 and N133 next to each other - meaning no real difference in burn rate. Others have shown one a bit faster. So, I am assuming that there is no significant difference in burn rate between N133 and 3031 . This greatly simplifies comparing load data when having well documented load tables for one powder and not the other. For example, the interesting 45=90 Express loads on Loaddata.com all use 3031 powder.

Fortunately, I have found that the Lyman 50th Edition Reloading Handbook load data for the 450 Marlin includes detailed data with both 3031 and N133.
For the lighter bullets of 300 and 325 grains, there is no significant difference in velocity per grain of powder, but for the heavier bullets such as 350 and 400 grains, N133 takes the lead in velocity per grain of powder. N133 performs better WRT measured pressure too, averaging 1000 psi less at the same velocity.
THIS is what I have been searching for! Now off the computer and on to the loading table.

I hope the re-chamber of your double rifle works out well for you. I recall reading you had that rifle grouping really well as a 45/70.

Since our last exchange on this thread I came across an article that was recently published in ‘Real Guns’ - it has some 45/90 data using a Win 1886 made by Miroku.

Jfe,
With any luck with the regulation of the 45-90 loads, the 45-70 loads will also regulate. Or at least I will be able to find some of each that shoot to my satisfaction.

Thanks for the tip on the Real Guns . I gave it a peek and found a 45-90 section. Will follow up later.

Gotta go now to check freeze proofing of the guest house as it may freeze tonight.

Maybe the rumors of a Grand Solar Minimum are true. Last summer had no temps above 100 degrees and this fall seems early. Time will tell.