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Saw a 24-inch 16 gauge Browning Citori Upland model with straight English grip for sale.

Wonder if this would work for pheasants ?

Maybe with 1-1/8 ounce of #5 and a modified choke ?

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Very short barrels so I am sure it isn't going to balance very well. Of course some here will argue that. Another thing is a very short sight plane. Oh and another thing going to be very whippy barrels @ 24".

Now to answer your question will it work? Sure but so will a brick at times.

Mod, 1-1/8oz, #6's should get it done if you can put the barrels where they need to be.

What do you mean by work for?

I did not realize that was a consideration in shotguns.

Yeah. A correct sight plane is a requirement from the shotgun police!

I'm not set up for the 16gagg, but I recently became aware of the BPS 16. The Upland version of that gun also has a straight stock with 24in tube.

The extra length "helps" to point better up to the point of being cumbersome.

Try pointing with your finger close to your chest and then with your arm extended and see which way works better. The barrel is nothing more than an extension of your finger. and

Maybe thats the theory, but personal preferences might also be a factor too what one likes and therefore works best as well.

That 24 in BPS for example is the equivalent of a 29 to 30 in o/u or sxs as far as sighting plane when you factor in receiver length. So it may work for some.

No reason to cut the barrel on a Citori when it will balance better with longer barrels.


However, try and find a serious target shooter-trap, skeet, sporting or fitasc who uses a 24in pump or auto. You wont find any winners, but you will easily find losers. Nor will you find one with an o/u or sxs.

There are some great pump users and many great auto users in the target games. The theory of what works in the games also applies to the field.

Admittedly about the only way you can balance out a BPS is to cut the barrel off. Not necessary with the Citori.

Addition:
When I read my post, admittedly it is a little convoluted. What I'm trying to convey is that people who make a living with a shotgun or are heavily involved in the use of them for recreation, universally use longer barrels. They have worked out the theories long ago and 24in anything are not to be found.

Member of 14 All-American Trap and Skeet teams.

Winner North American Clay Target Championship.

Winner Open Championship of North America.

Winner North American Doubles Championship - 5 times.

Winner High Average on 16-Yard Targets in North America twice.

Winner High Over All Championship of North America - 5 times.

Winner High All Around Championship of North America - 5 times.

Winner of more than 100 state and regional trap championships.

Youngest State Trap Champion - Kansas - 14 years of age. Repeated as State Champion the following year.

Winner High Average on Doubles in North America - 3 times.

First 100 Straight on Doubles ever shot at the Grand American.

Winner of 20 state and regional skeet championships.

Winner National Sub Small Bore (.410) Skeet Championship.

International Skeet - 2nd place in Championship of the World.

International Trap - 3rd place in Championship of the World.

International Trap - winner gold medal at Olympic tryouts.

Winner World Live Pigeon Championship High Over All, Mexico City.

Match of Nations, Cairo, Egypt - Member of winning live-bird team competing with 25 other countries.

Winner World Live Bird Grand Prix, Monte Carlo.

Winner Live Bird Championship of Madrid.

Winner Live Bird Championship of Paris.

Winner Open Flyer Championship of Guadalajara.

Winner Columbaire Championship of Seville, Spain.

Winner Columbaire Championship of Madrid.

Winner Columbaire Championship of Egypt Open.

Grand National Quail Championship, Enid, Oklahoma - high score three years in a row.

That's a lengthy list of accomplishments. By some standards, Rudy Etchen wouldn't be a "serious shooter." He won the Grand, set numerous records at Trap Doubles . . . and skeet, with pump-guns. No serious shooter uses a pump! Much of his live bird shooting was with a SxS . . . no serious shooter uses a SxS in competition!

It is a trend type thing. For years, the "ideal" skeet gun was a 26 inch O/U . . . actually, 25-1/2 in. when the Superposed was prevalent. Sighting plane wasn't a problem then, so it must be a fairly recent invention?

Skeet, or "clock shooting," trap, sporting clays . . . all of these sports were designed to simulate bird hunting, a fun way to keep tuned up in the off-season. But, they have all become their own entities, so now most "Sporting Guns" are far too heavy to be enjoyable carrying around all day in the field and as far removed from the notion of the "British Game Gun" as can be imagined. Part of it is understandable-- less hunters every year, and more clay-shooters that never hunt, and never intend to.

None of it has much to do with wild pheasant hunting, though. Anything that allows shooting from a premounted position is not relevant when it comes to hunting wild, flushing game. If you can mount you gun and yell "Pull!," it just doesn't equate to a day in the field chasing pheasants.

Not sure what you are trying to say for the most part, but anyway. Rudy didn't live to far away from me and I am friends with and have shot and hunted with his Son-Joel-on more than one occasion.

Can't remember saying that no serious shooter uses a pump or sxs. In fact with regards to pumps I said there are some great shooters. So not sure where your going with that line.

Again with regards to premounting. Trap and skeet yes. Sporting maybe, there are winners doing it pre-mounted and gun down. Fitasc is exclusively mandated to be shot gun down. Therefore, not sure if you are all that up to speed on what is going on with all of today's target games. Obviously not.

Have also hunted with some top flight target shooters. Most of us regular Joes with a shotgun would be left trying to play pickup if they decided to hog the show. Targets or Pheasants those boys and girls are at the top. Just the way it works out.

The point was that personal preference plays a huge role and that whatever your preference is, there is no substitute for gun fit. We don't wear the same boots, clothes, etc., so why should we wear the same guns? What we do the best with is self-explanatory . . . it is what we do the best with, what comes up the best, what feels the best, what we can do intuitively.

After forty-five years of hunting wild pheasants, I clearly do have strong preferences. An Upland (or "Superlight") Citori wouldn't be on that list in any gauge. For me, anyway . . . obviously a few people like them. Nevertheless, it is still only my personal preference and it doesn't take very long for an individual to find out what works best for them.

With regards to sporting guns being heavier, no doubt that is the case for a variety of reasons. However, the goal is still to have the shotgun in balance with the weight. Not too front heavy and not to muzzle light. Same principle applies to lighter field shotguns. A 24in straight stocked Citori will not be a shining example of a well balanced shotgun.

Gun fit, gun fit, gun fit. Repeated over and over here on the fire. There is more too it than just looking down the rib and seeing if things line up. Until one has the mechanics of a subconscious and consistent move and mount down, a perfectly fitted shotgun will do little to improve their performance and in fact it would be extremely difficult to be have a shotgun accurately fitted to the shooter without an excellent move and mount.

The heavy part is recoil. You can't get past too many ads without a mention of "felt recoil." It is also why folks want their 12 gauge autoloaders to cycle with 7/8 oz. payloads . . . not only a 20 gauge load, but a 20 gauge target load at that. Makes no sense to give up effective pattern size, but "felt recoil" apparently overcomes the logic.

Recoil is the big deal when one shoots a couple hundred targets in a day. The other reason is that many of the presentations require a consistent follow through. Becomes very difficult with a light weight that stops as easy as it starts.

It's an even bigger deal when you are in Argentina shooting doves all day in a t-shirt. But that isn't the case at all when hunting pheasant.

Plan on doing that sometime. But I don't hate them enough to shoot a thousand rounds a day. I have managed 300 to 400 rounds a day often and that should suffice to get my kicks out of shooting Doves.

They sure hate them down there. Horrible crop depredation issues. You're doing them a favor by going down to shoot.

Then they should pay me to do so.

Addition: Nice that you mentioned Rudy. Most don't have a clue of who he was. Very similar to a ball player of today not knowing about Willy Mays or Lou Gehrig.

His father Fred was also an accomplished shooter and also won the Grand American. Joel is no stranger in the use of a shotgun and has also won events at the Grand. His Daughter likewise.

Rudy's training regime while young and under the direction of Fred would have broken most of us down. You didn't leave a peg until you had broken 100straight and he was expected to run the field every day he decided to shoot, or you didn't shoot.

Hammer1,

No matter what gun you use, You sure do not need an 1 1/8oz. load
of # 5's for Pheasant ! I've been killing our wild Kansas pheasants for 40 years wih 3/4 oz. # 6's in my 28 ga.'s with out a problem. If Iam hunting over dogs I use an IMC choke. No dogs
I use Mod.

Good luck and have FUN.

Rabbitdog

Rudy looks like he knows something he isn't telling:

It isn't about "need," it is about what you want, and what works best. #5 shot is more lethal at all ranges than #6 shot, and you aren't going to form a pattern out of any more pellets than comes out of the muzzle in the first place.

I love when people want to try to reinvent the wheel, does crack me up.

Pretty crystal clear that 30" barrels on break action guns is what the average would be in the shotgun sports world. If you took out skeet in the equation would probably end up being 32".

Now your body size will dictate what is best for you. if you are 5'2" you might want to go a little shorter and if you are 6'plus you may want to go a little longer. 30" barrels work very well in the field. I have never found or heard anyone of any experiance say that 30" barrels hurt them in the field.

As to a sight plane it isn't anything new. Sure back in the day skeet shooters cleaned plenty of 100 straights with short barrels. But as we have learned over time short barrels are fast to start and stop. All which can cause a lot of issues in the shotgun world. Imagine what those guys and gals could have done with longer barrels?

I can help you with that. For flushing game, a shorter barrel is better to the extent that it makes the gun faster. My most-used pheasant guns all have 26 inch or shorter barrels. My Belgian A-5's are actually 25-1/2 inch barrels; my Benelli M2 is a 24 inch. In Illinois, it is pheasants. For grouse hunting in the timber, some feel the shorter the better . . . the same for quail.

It is all personal preference. While some folks like to obsess over an inch or two of barrel length, getting the muzzle of a gun an inch or two closer to a pheasant doesn't at all matter as far as I'm concerned. To some, it obviously does.

If you add 4 inches of receiver for a 26 in. pump or an autoloader vs. a O/U, you end up with a 30 inch sighting plane, even though the only thing a "sighting plane" does is move the bead at the muzzle a bit farther away from you. If you add a couple of inches to your buttstock, you get the same effect, as the sighting plane begins with your eyes, not with the shotgun, and if you're staring at the barrel instead of your target, you might have other issues.

Jeez you guys make a pleasant afternoon afield complicated.

Hey Battue You own one of the FINEST upland guns ever made. Winchester Mod.59 its fast no matter what the barrel length,Can't believe you didn"t mention it.

The 16 Browning with 24 inch barrel would be perfect for Pheasants. The best Pheasants load i have used in the 16 ga for Pheasant Hunting is the, Fiocchi Golden Pheasant, 2 3/4", #5 Nickel Plated Lead Shot, 1 1/8 ounce. It will hammer them .

Excellent point

I've said it before, Winchester 59s should be illegal for Grouse. Don't fret, it will get some field time.

If it was about staring at the barrel it would be. Since it isn't it's not.

Like I said have never heard from any one experianced! Your reply is pretty funny however seeing I have shot and hunted with a few of the best in the game. Battue isn't a slouch behind a shotgun either but to be fair have never hunted with him. You can write your opinion all day long on sight planes and how they work or don't work. Or your opinion on 24" barrels, (note my post stayed specific to break actions). As Semi and pumps recievers give you that extra lenght so a 24" barrel on a pump or semi is really more inline with 29".

You are correct about the stock adding lenght to the sight picture. But you don't buy into the sight picture propaganda now remember?

Bottomline and any good gunsmith worth a damn will tell you this.
1) The gun must fit the shooter
2) The gun has to balance (this can differ on where the gun balances)
1a) Actually comes before all, is that the shooter must have a solid repeatable mount to get to #1.

Personally I don't find needing a fast handling gun with pheasants. I also don't find an extra inch or maybe even two with a single barrel gun slowing my gun spead down enough for me to worry about. I hunt grouse and woodcock in some pretty thick nasty stuff and use a 30" barreled SxS in 28ga. Ihave yet to ever say damn I wish I had shorter barrels.

When I look down my barrels of any of my shotguns I don't see anything because I remove all the beads. I am looking at my target nothing else. Seeing I shoot mostly sustained lead my barrels are out infront of the bird before I ever have the gun totally mounted. Except on going away shots where I shoot pull thru. Either way my subconscience knows the lead and tells me to pull the trigger. No need to check the barrels, doing so 9 out of 10 times will cost you the bird.

24" Benelli Ultra Light shooter. I like light shotguns and short barrels.

I'm not sure if your statement is directed at clays, but it doesn't hold water for pheasants. I use my bead a lot - that's what happens when you're standing with one foot in a hole and bent over backwards trying to punch a shot through a thick fence row. Most real life pheasant shots aren't some text book, gun fit, sustained lead work of art.

It is the Bird & Dog >> Upland Game forum, the subject was a 16 ga. and pheasants, so clays has nothing to do with it.

A good gunsmith should be able to fix a gun, not tell you how to use it just like an auto mechanic should be able to keep your car running, but need not give you driving tips. No one can arbitrarily say what is going to be best for an individual any more than you can say what jeans are going to fit the best, what pair of boots are most comfortable, or how you like your steak cooked. The person best qualified to tell you what you enjoy the most, what works best for you . . . is you. The individual is the only person qualified to say.

As far as notions of "whippiness" and so forth, that's all in the category of "if you say so." Overswinging pheasants and pass-shooting pheasants isn't the norm: that sounds more like confusing pheasant hunting with a day in the goose pit.

Your right the forum is Upland Game, maybe if you shot more (practice) you wouldn't find pheasant so hard to kill. Clays does translate to upland if you put in the time practicing your shooting will get better weather live birds or clays. Gun mount and swing are very critical parts of shotgunning both on clays and wild birds.

Overswinging????? Care to explain that? Would that be leading the bird to much? Where did that come from?

I have a 16 ga. Citori, and it is my favourite pheasant gun. I use 6's mostly, either 1 oz or 1-1/8oz. 5's would be OK but may not pattern as evenly from the 16 ga. bore. Testing the actual gun and load on paper will tell you what the pattern is like.
For me, barrels shorter than 28" on a Citori would be a handicap. A little too easy to stop the swing. Others may be able to shoot such short barrels well, it would depend on your style and your build. If you could try the gun out that would be ideal, otherwise, buy and sell if not OK, buy and keep if you are happy!

Those #5s penetrate better and break bones better. Dirty Bob Enewold told me about 45 years ago to try 4s as a quail load. He said they produced fewer cripples and made less holes. I tried them, and he was absolutely correct.

I love my Mdl 59 as my chuckar gun. It is light and works...always!

As for the Citori 16ga, I wish I had it, and you had a better one. This little 16 SXS has accounted for a lot of birds over the years. I mostly use 1oz loads, but do sometimes use 1 1/8 ounce #5 ammo late in the season for chuckar. A SXS is more problematic in what loads it likes than an O/U. I think you'll love the Citori.

From valley quail to big blue grouse, the 16 is the ticket.

L2S,, Nice birds, nice shotguns, and a beautiful dog....hope hunting is going great.....

Certainly better than #6 shot, as far as I'm concerned. These birds are from earlier today.

I have a 26" barreled Browning Citori Lightning in 20 ga I shoot it alot better when its cold and I'm wearing heavy stiff clothes. I'd just as soon it had 28" barrels like my Red Label. or 30" like my Magnum Field gd Superposed 12. A 24" o/u would be the same total lgth as a 20-21" pump-auto..BTDT don't need to go there again. 26"barrels on all my other newer pumps and autos, don't need anymore length to them.1 1/8 oz of 5's works good in my 16's. Only have to clean a few late season roosters with full plumage and extra thick layers of yellow body fat with 6's balled in feathers that never penetrated to the vitals to understand that.Doesn't bother me at all this time a year to use copper plated #4 Federal Premiums either.You want that 24" O/u buy it,everybody out there in the arena has to take his own SOB lessons in life. Can't do that for you ,best a luck Magnum Man

I have a 24" Browning Upland Special in 20 ga that works equally well on phez, quail or grouse. I've been toting it since the early 80's. I did purchase a Browning Superlight Feather 16 ga for phez a few years back. I still find myself reaching for the 20 with the shorter tubes most of the time. If it's a meat hunt, I'll pickup the Al48 20 ga w/ a 24" cylinder bore and let the yellow hulls rain. Bottom line, the Citori is an excellent gun for phesants.

Ms. Scarlet died 12/21/2011 from injuries sustained in an altercation with her friend and running mate over a dead gopher the other dog was guarding. A bite to her neck caused too much trauma, and Ms. Scarlet died after her last good fight at the vets. She seemed to rally, but she died of a stroke.

Sad news L2S !!! I am so sorry to hear of your dog's passing!! We never get over our lost dogs, we only adjust and learn to move one..take care,

Good girl Ms. Scarlet.

Oh no, Bruce I can't believe it. We am so sorry for your loss.
Dang dogs. They can break your heart so many ways. They have to be great to make the pain worthwhile. Again we are so sorry.

My dad has the 20 and 12 version of the upland with 24" barrels. For some reason they are about the best pointing bird gun I've ever been around. I would buy a 16ga. version in a heartbeat if I ever found one.

I could so run a Upland 16 for ditch pigeons and more.

Dober

I shoot a contender single shot with a 10" barrel in .410 bore and I have not missed a pheasant in 3 seeasons with it. I have dropped 19 cockbirds, 7 grouse, 46 chuckars, and 18 cottontails this year alone with my contender pistol alone. (only hunted birds 11 times and rabbits 9 trips this year, 2011) That is with a 3" #6 shot .410 load in a single shot with a 10" barrel. You guys are crazy and you could make an arguement about anything. Shoot what you shoot well and who cares about the other guy!

i bought a citori lightning 16 gauge 26 inch invector choke barrels when they first came out in 1987. we had lots of birds back in those days here in iowa. buy the 24 inch inch gun if you like and dont worry about the barrel length. i like a straight grip in my side by sides . not so much in a stack barrel. ounce to 1 1/8 load good to go. i still shoot that gun better than anything else i have. probably because ive simply shot it alot and i do not think about it when it comes up.