Does your Dog have to point and hold a Bird or covey for you to shoot.... or do you shoot at every Bird that gets up....pointed or not....how about Birds they bust and obviously did so on purpose.....

Should, yes. Do I all the time, no. Hank gets too little of bird contacts as is so I'll often shoot (at birds that get up even if he didn't point them. Not just for him, but for me. I've yet to see him bust birds "obviously on purpose".

That said, I'm still a relative newcomer to bird hunting and dog training so I make lots of mistakes. All of Hanks shortcomings are mine...

I hunt with flushers....so NBD here....However, I also hunt with guys that have pointing Dogs....Some don't care, but one does....If the Bird flushes completely wild then shooting is fine....But if the Dog is working that Bird, then a reasonably solid point is the rule.....What is reasonably solid?....You just know....creeping in on the point and the Bird flushing real close, isn't reasonably solid....

not a good idea to shoot at birds he intentionally busted, he will think that is what you want. I'm talking about a pup, best way to stop a bad habitat is not let it start.now if you have a trained dog its a different story, I grouse hunt and they are scarce and are pressured, rarely hold for you to walk in and flush.I have seen them flush 50 yards from the dog. Last Feb I shot one that wasn't pointed it just appeared coming toward me, but on same hunt I had six solid points /backs by my two setters that held until I released them. The bird I shot was the only one I saw or heard on an 11 mile stroll , felt a little guilty shooting it as I thought it might be the last one. Long winded point i'm trying to make is if you trust your dog to do the right thing no harm , but if he doesn't know how the game is played soon you won't get any shots!.

If my dog alerts on birds, repositions herself but does not lock up on point , particularly big running birds( like roosters) , I will sometimes shoot.

Happens in dry , windier conditions. Disclaimer: feel my dog is well trained as I got her onto a lot of wild birds her first 3 years.

When consider how jittery wild quail are here if you did not shoot ones that get up wild you would miss out on a lot of hunting. Those golden days of coveys holding and then getting up and setting back down as a covey 200 yards away are long gone. And when Jake locked up it was a safe bet that those birds were still 20 - 30 feet in front of him.

Depends on where I'm hunting. Some birds are more valuable to me than others.

It depends on the dog- it's experience/training level, bird being hunted, scenting conditions, actions/reactions upon the flush, whether the flush was accidental (bump) or intentional (bust), and age are considerations for me.

A young or inexperienced dog must point before I will shoot the bird. To do otherwise will not enhance the training and instincts of the dog. I try my best to put the dog into circumstances in which it will succeed such as hunting woodcock, early season prairie grouse, or early season pheasants in the prairie regions. These birds tend to hold decently and, other than woodcock, can often be hunted in areas on can also watch the dog. This helps with identifying areas the dog needs more work on.

This hopefully teaches the dog to work a bird carefully and lock up when the bird's location is pinpointed but not pinpointed with the nose in the bird's face. Kind of like smelling someone BBQing in the neighborhood- you can find the house doing so without climbing the fence and entering the backyard. A dog that can figure this out will be a fantastic ruffed grouse and late season dog on other birds.

More experienced dogs might have a non-pointed bird shot over them, it depends on the circumstances. Generally the bird cannot be intentionally flushed though that might be waived in poor scenting or cover situations. One thing the dog must do is stop to the flush which seems to lessen the cases of busting. A rarer exception is when hunting with others, some have few opportunities and wish to take every opportunity they can. I am careful in which dogs get used with these types.

My oldest dogs, generally over 12 years of age, get birds shot over them any which way. Mostly they point but sometimes senility takes over and they plain, flat out run over birds. As their time in the field and remaining are limited, I feel it more important to get a retrieve than to do things "right".

I used to do it all "by the book" with our dogs, mostly WPGs. Most were good pointers, and one was a genius on wild chuckar. She knew just how close to crowd a covey to make them squat and pause. They moved a bit; she moved a bit, until I caught up and we flushed them. BTW, I never trained them to be steady of wing and shot. 90% of the birds we hunted were chuckar, and it was a good idea to have the dog under the bird as it fell to the ground...lol

Now at my age I just like to see the goofballs out having a great time, and if they bust some birds, or we walk over some due to terrible scenting conditions, well ...so what?

Have fun with your dogs however you chose.

Best advice on here.

Does your Dog have to point and hold a Bird or covey for you to shoot..
YES

Most of my dogs I used for trialing. If they weren't steady to wing and shot they didn't place in adult stakes. If they weren't good enough to place the became someone else's dog, and some of the ones that did place also became someone else's dog.

My dogs are my best friends outside my wife and kids. I hunt public land wild roosters and quail only. These birds will flush wild if you shut your door too loudly unloading the truck. I get some great stylish points and we get some that we stalk together for 100 yards. If those ones that are running get up in range they get killed point or no point. My dog is not steady to flush and my loss rate is extremely low. I hunt mostly solo so really the dog only has to please me which he emphatically does. The new guy is not quite 5 months old, but he is my 3 year olds cousin and it isn't a question of how he will do.

If you mostly hunt preserves or planted birds in trials with pointers or springers, perhaps I'd change my outlook. Fortunately I don't. We'll be traveling solo mostly again this fall with about 4 states and a variety of birds in mind. I am sure it will be quite entertaining. Hoping to get one or both kids out as well a few times.

Hunt and train to what you like and don't worry about what others do. Pic of the team here.

As long as the dog isn’t out busting birds like a damn fool I’m shooting.

Relocating,creeping,and putting some pressure on the bird is needed on wild birds a lot of the time and not just roosters. I’ll also tell my dog to get em making them flush a bird in heavy cover if that the only way I can stay in position to shoot.

Yep.

Here's another great quote from Major Charles Askins, the father of the more widely-known Colonel Charles Askins. They were both gun writers, but apparently the major was a much gentler and less ambitious guy than his son, though Askins Sr. was heavily involved in top-notch bird-dog training and trialing or some years. This is from Askins Sr.'s GAME BIRD SHOOTING, published in 1931:

“My dogs are now about the least trained bird dogs that ever went afield. I let them do what pleases them best, they do best what they know they how, and we have a grand time together; but it is a scandalous handling in the eyes of a stranger.”

First read that at least a dozen years ago, when I was just getting to be old enough to fully appreciate it.

Love that quote. Thanks for posting it John.

Yes it takes a little age to get it 👍

Different game! Hard to hang on to a bunch of mediocre to good dogs when running Trials. Have to keep time and room for ones that have what it takes. Add that you were more than likely also training other peoples dogs and possibly running them as well.

A average Trials dog is better then 80% of what the average bird hunter has.

I think the meaning there is different from the interpretation. I could be wrong, but we'll never know.

A variety of answers....and exactly as expected. However, a Dog that does what it feels like isn’t on the team. There is a trilogy of Bird, Dog and gun....a field Dog....unlike a trial Dog....can make a lot of mistakes and still be one to brag on....however unless they figure out their place in the game....as a hunter they leave much to be desired. Unless they learn to hunt for the gun they will rarely get to touch the prize.

It normally takes a lot of Birds for it to register....

Universally there were a lot more Birds in 1931 than today.....opportunities were much more common and for the most part easier. Back then, both the Dog and hunter could have their fun and most times end the day content.... For most today, Bird contacts come with more effort on both Dog and hunter....Subsequently team work becomes more of a factor....

That is a philosophy a trainer buddy of mine coined - FDA or "Follow Dog's Azz." It was merely turn the dog loose and let instinct and birds do the training. It looks wild and disorganized but it has its own structure that is readily apparent if one takes off the blinders. If one has the number of wild birds it takes to train this way, there is no better method. It is one reason so many dog trainers operated out of the northern prairie states as there were many wild birds to train on and they could be run through the summer. My best dogs came from the hey days of the late 1980s to the early 2000s when wild birds were common locally as well as in many other states I traveled to. When one can get a dozen wild bird contacts 3+ times a week for years, a dog gains an awful lot of experience handling birds.

A move, changes in habitat, different life circumstances, new interpretation of laws, and decreased bird populations made such training less available to me. Planted birds and various tools are needed to simulate wild birds but it is not the same. One can get an approximation but it still takes numbers of wild birds to finish a dog.

Agree

Best Springer I ever had essentially trained himself this way....At the time it wasn't rare to flush 20 to 30 Ruffed Grouse every day you went out.....Lot of frustration at first because he was hot blooded, I knew little about training, but the Birds were there....When it all clicked and he figured out my role it couldn't get any better.....The next Dog that came, followed Duffy around from day one, and he trained Sam for the most part.

Absolutely and my point on my comment about it. The best trained dogs have seen thousands of birds. We don't train dogs to hunt, that is built into their DNA. We train them to Hunt (with) for us. Once the dog has the birds figured out, all we have to do is get the dog to work with us.

Absolutely correct.As many contacts as possible on WILD BIRDS as possible at a young age.There's no substitute.Ive hunted with my share of guys over the years that hunt trial dogs for wild pheasants in Montana and Dakotas. They look beautiful pointing while the roosters all ready took off and is running a 100 yards away . My dog, who had many wild bird contacts, learned to run in a wide loop about 100 yards ahead of scent encounter using the wind to cut off a running rooster. Then you have thick ice encrusted cattail swamps where they hide late season. Takes a special tough dog to hunt those areas.