Shiloh Sharps 50-90 Sharps.

Velcome to der Darkside I just haveta work harder on Steve NO

I never see a Sharps but what it brings a smile to my face. Congratsd, Cole.

Thanks. I've had several Italians and a fo real Sharps Conversion Carbine, but never a Shiloh.

I know I should have gotten 100 rounds last weekend instead of 60.

What is the barrel twist and what bullet are you shooting?

Congratulations, Sir!

That said, you're not helping with my looming addiction to BPCR!

ET's and others' posts about these rifles have driven me to start digging into the subject while I maneuver my finances to join the rank of BPCR addicts.

Ed

Nope . . . shoulda got 200 . . .

Congrats on your step up to the "big leagues", you'll like your Shiloh.

34" barrel, but I have no idea of the twist. The bullet is a 450 grain lead, but if the guy who custom loads them told me, I have forgotten what kind of mold it came from. The bullet is a round nose, flat top.

He did tell me the 625 grainers backed by black powder, that he was selling, were thrown from a custom-made mold.

The original 50/90 2 1/2 used a 473 grain paper patched bullet and that WAS the heavy one. Shooting smokeless-after ya git done wid this bunch,any further pollution wid said powder will require that you beat your head against the wall until forgiven!! Call Shiloh and ask what the rifling pitch is for their Big Fifty. Great folks. They answer questions about their product very readily. NOW GO GIT A SCHITLOAD of BLACK POWDER!!!!!!! You are SOOOOOO screwed!!!

I've already got the Black Powder.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=160264&CAT=4162

This might be about what ya need.

For the #3 it will most likely be a 1/22 twist unless a slow twist was ordered.

I've already got a 500 grain mold. It's not a paper patch mold though.

Gotsta go wid a paper patch bullet and BP!!!!

Once I generate some brass it will be reloaded with Black.

Generate your brass?
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/3868?

Wow. I paid $40 a box for loaded ammo. I thought it was a decent buy, but didn't realize how cheap it really was.

Sweet Rifle!

No more than what you'll shoot that rifle, the preloaded stuff is probably the better deal.

Don't really know what you mean here.

$40 a box is dang cheap Ranch means, what is the brand of the brass . Does the serial # on the gun have a B prefix or suffix to it? No B would mean probably a 4 digit serial with a 1 in 36" twist 550 gr bullets or lighter. B guns (built after the Bryan family bought out Wolfe Droge) were built with a 1 in 22" twist and are more suitable for bullets up to 700 grs+. Your barrel appears to be std weight 34? or is it a heavy barrel? Magnum Man

Yuup 2$ a trigger yank is cheap unless you shoot any competition, then it's pretty stinkin high.

Has a B. Barrel appears pretty heavy to me. The gun weighs 12 1/2 lbs.

My mind was elsewhere at that show or I'd have bought at least 40 more rounds. I won't see that dude again until Spring, but he will be at the next Wannamacher show as he is always there.

At 12 1/2 lbs it would be a heavy barrel and my guess is a 1 in 22" twist. You want to know more about your particular gun copy down the serial # and email shiloh sharps or get on the shiloh forum and into the support thread and ask Kirk Bryan what he can tell you about there serial# change over to 1 in 22 twist. If that is it you should be able to shoot up to 700+ gr bullets.Be polite and ask Kurt 71 for some advice on loading for it.He probably knows more about the 50-2 1/2" than most folks. Magnum Man

He can check the twist himself. All it takes is a cleaning rod and a patch and a ruler. If it is 1-22, it won't shoot until the bullet weight gets to 600 to 650 grains, and will like 700 plus even better.

After he fights it for awhile, I wouldn't be surprised to see it looking for another home. That stock configuration and barrel length makes it a difficult gun to shoot well, and he won't like the recoil after he shoots it a few times.

I really hope it works out for Cole. I love to see folks getting bit by the BPCR bug. Recoil pads are cheap.

When it comes to BPCRs in particular, coolness sells, and size is cool. I'd be interested to see Shiloh's stats, including how many of what are returned for rebarreling.

Paul

The 450 grainers are not bad at all. Indeed, I'm not looking for a 600 Nitro Express.

What sort of groups are you getting?

Nice rifle Cole I'm envious of you guys and chompin at the bit for my 45/110's arrival next summer.BTW just wonder if ET is getting a little comish for pushin Shilo guns?

No doubt.

I doubt the commission you insinuated. Shilohs are either bought 2 nd hand or ordered new from Shiloh. Last I knew only real exception from that Is Bill Goodman of Goodman's guns who has orders in for guns all the time that a guy can change the specs on until they go into production. Bill adds a $200 surcharge to the retail of the gun for the service of taking over one of his orders for a usually less than 8 month wait for the gun. Normal wait time is up to 24 months and any cost increase that happens over the retail of the gun + 11 % excise tax at delivery time.
Yup the op can measure his own twist and sure he can have Shiloh rebarrel it for $800+ for a lesser cart if he chooses. But at 12.5# and a 600 grain greaser with 90 gr of Fg should be not to bad on the recoil end. my 2 cts worth Magnum Man

Lighten up MagnumMan, these guys are my "victims" Keep in mind that my First is a real Sharps,not a modern superbly executed Shiloh Sharps. Now I have my own Shiloh Sharps in 44/90 BN and the myth of my commission can be laid to rest Soon Too-Many-Letters might be dragged over to da Darkside and I only have ONE El Primo Victim left to get...Steve NO are you listening

Hye there Magnum man , beins you ain't out plowin snow for the holiday. How's about you right as a thread about that .440 diameter bullet you're patching for your 2 7/8?

ET braggin about having a 44-90 don't count unless you can actually proove you shoot the thing.

MM ET's a cagey old fart and was NO DOUBT a Buffler hunter in a previous lifetime he wines and dines ya until you've taken his bait hook line and sinker which in turn causes you to inflict great financial pain on yourself!!!!

Allright ET I'll lighten up and say case any you interested right now Bill goodman has a couple of 50's due any day now and cause he feels bad about the economy he is waiving the $200 surcharge on them. www.shiloh-ballard.com

ET a fine looking original 45 2 7/8" and your #3 ? 44-90 is a sweety looking outfit too. What dia. of ppb and kinda paper you use for that? and what brand a brass as long as its question thirty. Magnum man

Well fellers, for what it's worth, gettin' bit by the BPC bug evidently isn't terminal. I got bit back in '86, (that's 1986 for those of you thinking of some snide remark regarding my age....thank you very much...lol!), and I'm still among the vertical and breathing.

Yeah, ET, I'm sliding down that slippery slope.

Been reading more about BPCR and had a chat with LBT on the phone earlier today about bullet molds.

Ed

Didn't know lbt made any decent bpcr moulds.

This is gettin' really good.

Oh great another good rifle that'll get buried in the back of the closest for ten years or so then get sold, cuz it wasn't shot.... Hope it's something decent so someone might get a good buy on a "used" usable rifle...

If he has a 1/22 twist in that .50 and uses rounds loaded by someone else he might get on a good day a basket ball size group @ 100 yards using them.

ColeYounger,

Take a trip to the shiloh forum and read the heck out of posts regarding the 50. You can learn a lot about what works-and what doesn't, and it will save you time and money in the meantime. That is what i did when I got my 50 2 1/2". I don't call it a 50-90, since I load it with 120 grains of Fg and use a 700 grain bullet from Montana Bullet Works. So...50-120-700? I could not get bullets under 600 grains to shoot as well as I wanted with the 1/22 twist. The 700 grain bullet I use is exactly the same as Lymans 457125-except bigger. It shoots and penetrates well. Search for some of my posts on the Shiloh Forum for results. Good luck with your new rifle!

Sounds like my ".45-82", my .45-70 that pushes a 535 gr. paper patched Money bullet at about 1300 fps with 82 grs. of Swiss 1 1/2. Shoots very well out to 1000 yards.

Paul

I don't know that they do.

I'm still in the info-gathering stage. I have a Marlin 1895 Limited III in .45-70 that I am interested in feeding something other than jacketed bullets.

ET's conversations about paper-patched slugs has me intrigued. ALMOST intrigued enough to order a Sharps...

Ed

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=160635&CAT=4121 This is a good bullet for the leverguns. There are a couple of 500 gr bullets that work well also, altho they just about work best when single fed thru the Marlin action.
Paper patching is a challenge, get your greasegroove bullet loading down pat first.

Not alot of need to order a sharps, Shiloh keeps a pretty good assortment ready to ship off the rack in the common cartridges, as does C Sharps.

Gents,ya have to keep in mind that I did the paper patch route for more than just historical reasons. I learned rather quickly that my old gun doesn't care much for grease groove slugs. I had a PP mold with the gun but it wasn't the best choice bullet weight. Anyhoo, paper patch is what my particular ancient rifle shoots so I had to figger it out. YMMV.

Manyletters . . . I've been using this bullet in my Marlin 1895CB 45-70. Lyman 457193/405gr RNFP cast from WW.



Recovered bullet on the offside of a 230# whitetail just under the skin, after going through shoulder, rib cage and offside shoulder.

Thank you, sir!

You're correct about rack rifles...now, it's just about the money.

As for it sitting in the safe, I don't own safe queens. As for recoil, I handloaded for my .458WM for several years until I switched to my .338WM as my primary rifle. I have quite a bit of experience loading grease-groove cast bullets for my .30 cal and up firearms, so it's not entirely new, but the paper-patched stuff is a whole new world that I want to get into. I think...

Ed

Big difference between those original rifles and their chambers, than with the modern versions, as I'm pretty sure you recall the trials that Jorge went thru trying to get his rifle to shoot, and I'm guessing that 44-90 has probably handed you your hat a couple of times already.

[quote=APDDSN0864
You're correct about rack rifles...now, it's just about the money.
Ed [/quote]

If you order a Shiloh, it's probably the easiest to afford rifle there is. You pickout what you want, place the order with your 250$ deposit, then you'll have a year to scrimp and save and rake together the money you need to finish paying it off, or you can send them a couple hundred when you get it toghether to put on your account. Then when you get the pay up or die letter stateing the gun is going into production, you've got it all taken care of. Then the 4-6 month wait begins,,,, and trust me it's a looooonnnggggg time.

Actually, the 44/90 did reasonably well so far. Hand size group at 100 doesn't disappoint me. I already figgered the loading would have to be jiggered. I consider it fun stuff. The old gun drove me crazy for the longest time before I went to different bullets at a much heavier weight and started to play with the compression. Kurt gave me some info that is invaluable. The big 44 is quite a powerful gun. Can't wait to get it sighted on something BIG!

It does occur to me that if one used a 600 grain slug over at least 100 grains of FFG in a 50, the recoil would be quite severe. Sorta atkin' all da fun outta letting go the next shot.

Indeed. My use for this gun will be fun shooting and hunting. I like to keep it fairly historical too-though I've been known to opt for smokeless to keep it clean. I don't have much desire to shoot a bullet that's a couple of hundred grains heavier than the normal originals were. 100 grains of Black doesn't sound too bad. 120 grains doesn't sound too good.

Cole, good luck with that Big 50. It looks like your'e going to need it...

I had a 40/70 bottleneck that shot lights out but you had to be sure to use a blow tube with the greased bullets to keep the fouling soft and still it would get hard to chamber a round after 4 shots without swabbing out at least the chamber. Paper patched was fun too.

I've shot it several times and the recoil with the 450 grain lead over smokeless is not bad at all. I shot my .257 Weatherby (I dunno what that gun weighs, but it ain't light) right after shooting the Sharps the other day and the .257 kicked worse.

Awww Man...letting one of the BIG rifles ROAR with BP and lead is the ONLY way ta travel

I agree.I shot my 50 With 5744 smokeless.It just didnt seem right using that big case with a sprinkle of powder.I quickly switched to Black powder.I now shoot a RCBS 550GR bullet with a case full of Goex Cartridge or Swiss 1.5F It will hold about 95gr with that bullet pressed way in to the crimp groove.The recoil is stout but not horrible in the 14 lb rifle.I tried 777 a few shots one time.Never again!!Recoil was arse kicking painful and it wasnt that accurate.

FlyboyFlem

'Shiloh Rifles'.....push themselves!

I was 70 years old when I fired these 10 rounds through my 50 2 1/2 so surely you younger guys shouldn't be howling about recoil!! This one is 1-22" ROT and it loves 700+ grain bullets! Listen to Sharpsguy...he knows about which he speaks!


10shots by Sharps45 2 7/8, on Flickr

The guy I bought my loaded ammo from had some black powder loaded 450 grainers but had sold out right before I got there. If he was around here, I'd buy from him, but the dude's from Flordia and as best I can tell, only does the two big gunshows in Tulsa every year. I'll probably load my cases with black when I get a few more. He had some 625 grainers loaded with black, but I didn't want that big a bullet.

I've still got some 50-70's I loaded up with black for a real Sharps I used to have.

I'm not howling about recoil, I just don't see the attraction. If you want to shoot bullets that weigh half again as much as the original ones, go for it. Likewise if you have a need of them. My own thought is that 450-500 grains of lead will do for anything I'm likely to shoot, including a Buff. All things equal, I'm saving a lot of lead by shooting lighter bullets. If my rifle won't shoot with lighter stuff, then I'll have to go heavy, but I'm not convinced it won't yet.

Cole, your rifle will shoot with 450 grain bullets and smokeless. How well it will shoot is what is in question. If your are satisfied with 3-4" groups, or bigger, at 100 yards, that fast twist barrel and 450 grain bullets with smokeless will work fine. If you want to shoot better than that, re-read the advice on this thread. Good Luck.

Cole, one more thing. If you want to stay traditional, and the rifle you have has a fast twist barrel, an option would be to sell it and use the proceeds to order a new rifle-and specify a slow twist .50 barrel. Order a shotgun butt plate, that will help the recoil. Some guys have done that and it is working out very well for them. Again, search the Shiloh forum and you can see the proof. Good Luck.

The results shown are just with the loaded ammo I bought for the brass. I have no inclination to sell or trade the gun whatsoever. The recoil is not bad at all. It recoils less than my .257 Roy.

ColeYounger

"I just don't see the attraction"

The 'ATTRACTION' for me at any rate....is the evidence within my posted photo! This rifle is set up with a ROT designed to put a heavy bullet spot on at long range using a higher BC rather than a lighter/shorter bullet such as a 473 gr. concave base PP bullet which works well with a 1-36" ROT. I ain't worried about the weight of the bullet I send down range; only the fact that it goes where I call it to be!

MERRY CHRISTMAS to ya!

Sharpsman,

That is some FINE shooting! I don't care HOW old you are. Or perhaps I should say, in spite of how old you are!

Ed

Then IOW, just like I said, you really have no need for the heavier projectile and it's a waste of lead. With lead as expensive as it is, all things being equal, why not have just as much accuracy and save about 250 grains, per shot? My gosh, that's equivalent to a 35 Whelen just in waste.

Again, whatever you wish to do, but there it is.

Merry Christmas to you as well.

Actually Cole, it ain't sech a bad idea to HAVE a heavy bullet available with a developed loading. It ain't like you HAVE to use it all the time. Those old Big 50's mebbe would have hung on longer if they DID use a heavy bullet for very long range. It sure don't hurt to have the capability.

Cole you would do well to heed the advice freely given you here.
Manny,magnumman,sharpsman, and Kurt 71 all have shilohs in 50 caliber. They know of what they speak, and I know from being there that Kurt 71's big 50 will deliver groups at 800 yds about the size of the one on the cardboard box you posted on the other thread.. Manny has used his 50 in Africa...
As to your ammo maker seems if he can commercially produce and sell ammo , you ought to be able to get ahold of him and have a few boxes shipped..

Cole.

I'm the last guy to tell you what to use for loads. If your happy with what your getting with a 400 some grain bullet in your Shiloh I have no problem with it, just dont say that the rifle dont shoot for hill of beans when you get discouraged.

I have several blk powder cartridge rifles in 6 different calibers the .50-2.5 Shiloh out shoots them all if you load it right.
This is what a .50-2.5 Shiloh with a 1/22 ROT is capable of shooting at 200 yards with a proper load and proper hold and break of the trigger.
Here a couple 10 shot groups from the 200 yard line.
I used the MVA scope to work up this load and didn't have enough rounds to see if the third elevation adjustment would put it in the center.

ColeYounger

"you really have no need for the heavier projectile"

It's really difficult to try to overcome the laws of physics concerning momentum and inertia and IMO the heavier bullets give me more of an advantage concerning fighting the issue of wind drift basically because the longer/heavier bullets have a better BC. By comparison it's kinda like shoving a Volkswagen off at 50 mph and letting off the gas to check for how far it will roll vs a freight train at 50 mph and doing the same thing! My money is on the freight train for rolling further down the track!! Cole...if ya want to shoot the lighter bullets in your .50..say the 473 gr. PP bullets....they'll work fine and with a 1-36" ROT...it's a proven performer! In the long run of it...all depends on what you want to do with your rifle and your own expectations!

Take care!

Kurt

+1 on that!

If a guy doesn't cast his own and is not willing to spend enough time load testing with any BPCR....whomever may as well be out behind the barn 'choking his chicken'!!


Rickrifles by Sharps45 2 7/8, on Flickr

I guess you missed the pics I posted the other day on a different thread.



Dead Zuchinni was being used to weight the target down.



Next eight shots after elevation adjustment-two on the side of the target. Target blew over so I just shot the center out of the bottom. Bottom shot was final adjustment. Last five shots were the group.



Dead punkin. It was already wounded, but the dead-center shot by the 50-90 kilt it. About 125 paces.

Doesn't compare particularly well against the the 10 shot 200 yard groups posted above.

Hmmm....I think I'll just mosey on outa here! If I may quote a good friend..."This is kinda like casting pearls before swine!"

I got one of those Shiloh sharps long Range express rifles in the "BIGGER" 50 , 50x3 1/4" my wife had it custom made for my birthday back in 91. It took over a year to get it, and then when i got it it wouldnt eject the empty case !!!!! the case expanding just a bit wouldnt let the rim fit back down the tunnel in the receiver !!!!! needless to say Shiloh never test fired it !!1 i called Wolfgang and told him ,and he said every rifle was test fired before they were sent out, Basically B.S. then he finally admitted they didn't test fire it because they didn't have any 50 x3 1/4 " ammo. So i had to send the rifle back with some of my ammo , 6 months later i got the rifle back, Same problem !!!!!! the fired cases wouldnt come back thru the tunnel!!! i finally took a dremmel with a sanding cylinder and where the rim was dragging removed just enough metal so the cases would eject!!!!!! needless ti say i wasn't very happy with mister Droege !! the quality of the work on the rifle was great,but he got upset when i said "I REALIZE THIS IS A SINGLE SHOT RIFLE !!!!!! BUT THIS IS RIDICULOUS !!!!!!! Don

Well that was Wolfgang

So Loggah, how does it shoot these days? 50-3.25" brass was all over the map dimension wise. Bell at .657" ,Eldorado at.661",Garretts at .650",C Sharps at .659" and Bertram at .660" rim diameters. Never had much problem that way with mine. guess I would have investigated turning down the rim diameters a little first though. How much freebore was in the chamber? were you loading it with smokeless or BP? Using paper patch bullets or greasers? Still got it? Details man, details Magnum Man

Magnum Man, I still have it!! i was using Bell brass back then,and 550 grain greased bullets,i tried black powder and pyrodex. i'm not sure on the freebore whatever shiloh used in there reamer,i figured the bullets i was using were't nowhere out of the case as far as a 700 Gr. paper patch. It really didn't shoot that well with the 550's i figured i should have been shooting the heavier bullets. I only put 60 rounds thru it,now it pretty much hangs on the wall!! i don't have a very good picture of it but heres where it hangs out.





its up in the right corner.

Beautiful gun room Loggah and it appears to be well stocked also. Hmmmm, with a decent selection of appropriate alcoholic beverages and a small reefer for ice and mix the only time a guy would have to bother the rest of the household would be at meal time, right? Well any way if you take one of those .512" greasers (bullet only)and insert it backwards into the chamber and hold it inplace with pencil, then insert a cleaning rod from the muzzle till the end touchs the bullets base. Rotate the rod marking it at the muzzle with a Magic Marker. Measure the distance from the end of the rod to the magic marker line, then add that to 3.25" sutract this total from the length of the barrel and the remainder should be the length of the freebore. They are not all the same, mine is 3/8" some are much longer. Most of these guns back then had a 1 in 36" twist and about 600 grs the stabilization gets iffy nevermind 700 grs..I load a patch to groove dia 570 gr ppb with 147 gr of Fg and shoots pretty good. You want to talk some more on this send me a pm. Magnum Man

A friend of mine that passed on some while back had a never fired 86 Winchester collection that would take up more room then what is shown in that photo.
And Every .22 Winchester model ever made unfired in a box.