I thought I would ask a question. I have been thinking about a Sharps rifle sometime in the future. And I have a second thought about a Browning High or Low Wall. I think that C. Sharps is the only option there as Shiloh does not make the Browning rifles. How do you choose one company over the other? How does the Browning compare to the Sharps rifle? One of these days I will have to take a trip to Big Timber to take a look at those operations. In the meantime maybe you guys can school me on the fine points.

They are all good rifles. What are your priorities? What kind of shooting do you plan to do? How much do you want to spend and how long are you willing to wait? How important are historical authenticity and USA manufacture? As you have noted, not all models and options are available from each of these companies.

Viewing manufacturing operations may be interesting, but not particularly germane to a decision as to which of these rifles to purchase. JMO.

Paul

Both Shiloh an CSA are highquality rifles. There is a slight difference in the stock proportions, the Shiloh being somewhat slimmer than the C Sharps.So if you're just going to get one, it might be best to handle one of each to see which fits and feels the best.
As for the 1885's the ones Winchester are selling now are about as good as they get.

I don't know about High Walls as I have not owned or shot one. I have handled C Sharps rifles and they are a well made rifle. That said, I own 2 - Shilohs and have had numerous calls to the company handled professionally and to my satisfaction. Shiloh is, IMHO, a very top-rate company. Shiloh also offers rifles for immediate sale (as does, I'm sure, C Sharps) on their website - rifles, for whatever reason, that were never actually purchased or issued. If you are a bit flexible in what you want in a rifle, you can have one in hand in less than a week. Most of the ones Shiloh has "in stock" are not really "dolled up" or of unusual caliber, so you may just see something you "need".

You'd have fun and be pleased with any of the ones you mentioned as well as the Winchester mentioned.

I mess around with black powder a good deal and think a cartridge gun would be fun. I'd like to hunt with it and maybe get into the silhouette shooting game. I have a three band Enfield repro and like to shoot that a lot. But I think something like a Sharps would be a great hunting rifle and just fun to shoot. Maybe something like a hunter's carbine.

A hunting rifle and a silhouette rifle are pretty different actually. Took a while to convince me of that, but true nonetheless.

A Browning/Winchester 1885 bpcr is a pretty heavy rifle for hunting. Sharps can be lighter or heavier, depending on configuration. There are lighter Winchester 85s too. CSharps will make one to your specifications and a Uberti is out there with varying quality reports.

A sharps carbine or a Sharps #3 sporter with a standard weight barrel in 28-32" is a pretty nice hunting rifle and I use the latter myself. I don't really care for carbines personally, but that's just a personal thing.

Hunting and possible sillouette, Brent's #3 would be a good choice as would the Shiloh Montana roughrider, and the Winchester sporter model of the 1885,http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/catalog/detail.asp?family=002C&mid=534183

The Winchester High Walls are pretty inexpensive from CDNN. The Pedersoli Sharps are very accurate, well finished, available, and less expensive.

And not a damn one of them made in the USA.

Nice edit ---

So why did the OP want to consider Brownings?

Didn't see where OP stated USA rifle

Because apparently, he was under the mistaken impression they were equal to Shilohs and C Sharps.

It's amazing to me that anyone would even discuss a C Sharps or Shiloh in the same sentence as a Miroku made Browning. The Montana made guns are twice the rifle and much more expensive in the field grades.. And worth every penny because Americans make them.

The stocks on the Mirokus are American Walnut, and the barrels on the bpcr models are Badger...

On rifles that the MSRP is as much as a Shiloh.

And BTW I have owned 5 Browing BPCR rifles and Badge barrels or not they would not make a zit on a Shilho's azz.

Anyone who pays $1,500+ for a Badger barreled Miroku BPCR is a damn fool.

My aren't we in a good mood this morning
No doubt about it, Shiloh's are the best, but when it comes to hiwalls, Shiloh is out, and Winchester is in, and the number of folks shooting out of the box Brownings and Winchesters and placing high or winning is fairly impressive.

I have felt that way about the Brownings for the last 10 years- not just this morning. Good guns, but not int he same league as an 1885 C Sharps High wall. And it's not because I did not give them a fair shot.

Actually the bigger fool is the idiot down in Texas who thought the Miroku made 1885s were worthy of an entire book. THAT is the definition of a fool.

E Blair,
While little jim continues to have a bad hair day over the Miroku 1885s made first with the Browning moniker and later with the Winchester label, rest assured they are probably the most accurate bpcrs you can pull off the shelf. For certain they are not a bit less accurate than a Shiloh for instance.

Aesthetically, I find them challenging to warm up to, but they shoot extremely well. They are also remarkably reliable rifles, though the others are as well, but I think Miroku could hold a slight edge given the number of folks that have them and the very small number of complaints about them failing.

Their three biggest negatives are,
1. A less than wonderful trigger than cannot be used in "set trigger" fashion. For a small price - remarkably small actually, Lee Shaver tunes this to a very serviceable trigger suitable for the best target work

2. They are hard to take apart - or rather to reassemble once taken down. But there are tricks and jigs to make this easier.

3. Their finish does not grab me in a favorable way. But you can always refinish one if it bugs you.

In then end, master class shooters win with these rifles. They are affordable in new or used conditions and they are available. The guy that wrote the book that so bugs little jim is also very helpful with connecting people with these rifles and also often has a few to sell. He's a good guy and infinitely more friendly than little jim.

The Pedersolis are also good rifles and have a reputation for accuracy. I also don't care for their finish on metal or rifle but nothing is wrong with them and they can be match winners just as readily as a Shiloh.

I don't have anything good to say about Uberti though others like them. The one Uberti product I owned (a revolver) was mechanically poorly made that affected much more than just cosmetics.

C Sharps and Shilohs will shoot with the best, but they don't run away from a Browning/Winchester (Miroku) highwall except for when it comes to looks. In accuracy and dependability, they are AT LEAST the equal of all the rest.

Now little jim will be back with more belittling of everything and everyone, but that's just something we all have to live with.

E Blair,
Check your PMs.

Brent

This past weekend I shot in a BPCR silhouette match with a shooter who holds a Grand Slam in that event. For those not familiar with BPCR silhouette, 10-in-a-row on the longer three targets shot from prone off cross sticks is difficult, but doable. I've done it myself, but 10-in-a-row on the chickens shot offhand is simply awesome, and accomplished by only a handful of shooters. This gent may also have won at least one national championship, but I'm not certain of that.

He shoots a Browning.

Paul

I handled a Win/Miroku 1885 Traditional Hunter last weekend, in .32-40. No it's not made in Montana, but it's nice anyway, and no doubt strong as heck. They also had a .45-70 trad hunter, both with 28" barrels and tang sights.

I also have a B78 from the 1970's, that is just startling in accuracy, and will buy another. That said, Shilohs are just plain art.

I've shot some Shilohs and Pedersolis side by side. I bought a Pedersoli. There's little question that the Jap rifles are very well made and accurate. Of course you can't be a name dropper but you'll have a lot of money for ammo and reloading equipment.

CDNN has the Jap Winchesters for 1/2 what a Shiloh sells for.

Hey, it was fun watching you set us up with all those "misses", than change ammo and shoot so well.

People, Paul has this Lilja Barreled Miruko Low wall, wearing MVA glass that would call out all the definitions of envy,.....

Having him around, and hanging out with him is the TRULY enviable part of the game, hope he'll return and whup up on us again.

GTC

True indeed. Short of a high dollar hand made custom unit, I think Shiloh does the finest production work of any US maker. They can certainly stand with folks like Holland & Holland too. One can not fit a human hair between wood and metal on their rifles. I do a little stockmaking, and can only dream of accomplishing the fit on their rifles. Absolute perfection.

Ha! You're too kind. Those condition changes skunked us all.

Shooting those little bitty buffalo silhouettes at 200 meters with .22 single shots was a kick. If a guy did that regularly he might learn to judge conditions and shoot halfway decent.

Thanks for a great time down in the border country.

Starting tomorrow I'm going to have a go with the .30-30 in my first lever silhouette match. Nothing like a state championship for your first such endeavor. Heard tell that a certain lady went 40 for 40 in that game.

Paul

Brent,

First of all read my reply again you pompous jackazz.

No matter HOW they shoot, the the Brownings have an UNSAFE potmetal trigger with a SOFT metal insert. They do NOT take down like an origional 1885. They sure as hell are not even close to the quality of a Shiloh or C. Sharps.

Anyone who would pay within a few hundred $$ of a Montana made rifles for a for a "sort of Jap made 1885 has a screw loose.

And actually I don't everyone or everything. Just pompous coksuckers like yourself who are all talk.

Paul,

I am sure if this gentleman really exists, you would not mind telling everyone his real name.

Ron Calderone

What state is he from?
AZ?

Arizona, though I don't know what that has to do with anything.

Brian Chilson, another champion silhouette shooter, is from PA.

Where anybody is from has nothing to do with shooting ability or the topic of this thread.

Paul

Paul.

I just wanted to make sure it was the Ron Calderone I was thinking of who was from AZ.

Thanks providing a name.

I dunno WHO the [bleep] you are (or THINK you are), and don't much care,....but I was spotting for Calderone the day that the 10th Turkey fell, garnering him the first ever "Grand Slam" in NRA BPCRS competition, you mouthy azzwhole.

I know that Rifle better than you'll ever know what the [bleep] you're talking about, Se�or.

Why don't you "Make sure" of that, after kissing my ass.

GTC

Crossfire.

Until Paul39 Provided a name, I had no verifiable reference for what he is even talking about. I realize Ron Calderone actually exists. Congratulations to you for actually realizing that ,too.

If could learn to READ- I never said anywhere that a Browning would not shoot- just that in overall build quality they are not comparable to a Shilho or C Sharps.. Nothing like a POS pot metal trigger with a soft key stock insert for "longevity"on the Brownings..

Well little jim, you returned just as I expected. And I'm sure we are all impressed that for 5 minutes you out shot Brian Chilson. I'd put money any day on Chilson over you, but maybe you would get incredibly lucky again. It happens - even to creeps like you.

Now tell us about all the hundreds of broken pot metal Browning BPCRs you have had in your shop. I'm sure they must overrun the place. Everywhere else however, they are one of the most dependable rifles on the line.

They are very comparable to Shilohs and CSAs - they beat them regularly. Just like everyone beats you regularly.

Now please regale once again us with the tale of how you beat Garbe in Raton. That was a good one. Or maybe a good story about all those times you whipped Ron Calderone.

I sure hope you come to Raton this year. I will be looking for you.

Brent

Brent.

The rifles don't do any winning. The shooters do. Dumbphcks like you squall about the quick locktime of a Highwall,Ballard or Stevens and then get your sorry azz kicked on the firing line by a 70 year old man shooting a sidehammer sharps. And so it goes. Morons like you never figure that out.

And yes, I did outshoot Chilson a few years ago at the Nationals. He really crashed and burned that year. I also did outhoot Garbe the Chicken line both days the very first Raton Nats I shot at. We were both shooting well. I was shooting a straight gripped Shiloh no 3 in 45-70. He was shooting his shotgun butted Ballard Schutzen High Wall in 38-55. Ron Long was spotting for him.

I realize a piss poor rifle shot like yourself can only snipe at folks with real ability. Just like you did with Ventorino before he kicked your sorry no talent azz in your little head to head shooting match .

Also, I never said I outshoot Calderdone at a match. I have never even mentioned the man's name on this forum until now. If you can find a post on this form where I said I outshot Calderone -I would sure like for you to post a link to it.

As to your liberal educated azz- I could outshoot you any day of the week in a BPCR registered match- with a used Pedersoli sidehammer. And that is a stone cold fact.

So, why don't you take your Sharps hating, wolf loving ass and go [bleep] yourself.

Paul don't get to having such a good time down there that you forget to come shoot Alliance in a couple months.
Glad to hear your snowbirding adventure is going well.

I guess the Sharps action is preferred to the Browning High Wall.

That just depends on ones personal tastes.
Myself I prefer the 74 sharps rifles, but have a fair amount of high requard for the 1885 winchesters, no matter who makes them.
Shiloh IMHO makes the best of the 74's.
The Miroku built 1885 Browning/Winchesters are extremely well made and dependable guns.

No not at all. The Sharps is a beautiful rifle that shoots very well. The Browning Highwall is a not quite so beautiful rifle that just at least as well.


Now, little jim, I'd be happy to see try to outshoot me at Raton. I'd be more than happy, in fact, I've already offered up a challenge and you ran and hid from that. So, I'll be there. I just might have to beat you with a Sharps though. Mine just being a junker 1877 Sharps though. Or maybe a Highwall - which would you prefer. You can pick.

By the way, I know who you are, and I'm happy to tell anyone else that cares. It doesn't look good though when someone googles your name now does it? I mean really, it gets repetitious.

That also means, I know your scores from those days of yesteryear when you shot more chickens than Garbe - you also got your clock your clock cleaned by the time the match was over. You tend to leave those parts out.

You are a good enough shot to have about a 50:50 chance to beat me... See ya there sucker.

As Ranch13 said, much of that is personal taste.

Or what you can afford to pay.

For pure match use, the '74 Sharps rifles do have a slower locktime. Some folks won't shoot them in a match because they feel that costs them points.

The problem with any of the Japanese made "1885" rifles is half of the mechanism is NOT an original 1885 rifle at all. Yes. the lever breechblock and basic receiver configuration is the same. but the entire main spring/sear/ trigger mechanism is different. The Japanese actions do not take down very easily for maintenance like the origionals. You cannot put set triggers in a Miroku made gun. And the trigger issues are definitely there- both in safely attainable pull weights and the quality of the parts.

That is the main reason why I said you cannot put them in the same catagory as a C Sharps or Shiloh made rifle. If you want an 1885 rifle and can spend the extra $$, by ALL MEANS get an 1885 made by C Sharps. It's a near exact replica of an Early flatside 1885 High Wall rifle.

Eblair, the C Sharps 1875 should also get some mention. Not the prettiest rifle in the world, but darn sure a better entry level gun than one of the Italian Sharps or hiwalls.

In what way will a 75 be better than a Pedersoli Sharps or a Browning Highwall? I would venture none. It doesn't look as good as any of them, it will shoot worse and it is generally less reliable from the wide variety of reports on these. They are okay rifles, but they are not better than the above.

Brent never said they'ld be better than a Miroku built hiwall....
They do have a very good lock time, and now also the set trigger option.
The advantage they carry over the Pederoli sharps is price and overall quality and service after the sale.
Have neither heard or experienced the reliability problem with the 75's.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder..

I had looked at the C Sharps 1875 at their website and wondered just what the main mechanical difference is between the 1874 and 1875. Just looking at the style, the 1874 is more appealing to me. Can someone explain the difference?

The 75 action is trimmer than a 74, very similar in size to the Hiwall. All the lock parts are internal in the action.

The DEEP receiver ring (compared to the '74) is a DECIDED and inarguable "Accuracy Edge". Faster lock time, too.

These are all kinda' [bleep] piddly details, ANY of the American made rifles discussed will shoot well. Italian quality can be on again, off again, particularly in the area of small parts heat treatment.

I like the '74 for the EASE of cleaning up, compared to the Walls and Rollers.

GTC

I was going to buy a Shiloh Sharps, but everyone I spoke to said the Italian guns were more accurate. I found this to be the case when I shot them too. I'm just sayin'.

Guess that is why the top 10 shooters at the 2009 Nationals all shot Italian guns.

http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-resul...ampionship_top-10-finishers-e-survey.htm

Swamp if you had so much experience with a sharps, then how did it come to pass that you did not know to put the hammer on half cock before you opened the breechblock?
Pedersoli's are decent rifles, the cost difference between a Shiloh and the Pedersoli in insignificant. The quality of the Shiloh is miles ahead, the warranty of the Shiloh is unbeatable, and should a person decide at a later point to sell the rifle the Shiloh will likely appreciate , or at very least not loose any value, the first round you put thru your Pedersoli you lost 25% and the depreciation will only get worse.

Ranch13: You asked the same question of the "expert" that's been on my mind.

I never said or implied that I had any experience. I bought my Pedersoli for $600.00. That seemed like a significant cost difference. I doubt I'll lose any money on it.

any one interested in a real 1875 Sharps, I think this is one of only two ever made, is up for sale. If only CSA made their 75 like that one!

http://jamesdjulia.com/auctions/catalog_detail_shots.asp?Details=44917x104&sale=320

And for those with really really deep pockets, the best Sharps of all
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=49412

Much to little jim's surprise I shoot one of these myself. It's my #1 target rifle at the moment. Just not an original.



E Blair, depending on how hard you are willing to shop, the used rifle market might be a good place to pick up a rifle that suits your fancy.

You stated that you had shot many Shilohs along side of Pedersoli's and came to the conclusion that Pedersoli was the better rifle.
You bought a used pedersoli carbine for half what the current price is on new ones.... Not real likely to get that sort of a deal on a Shiloh or C Sharps, unless you stumble into something that the seller doesn't know what they have, or at an auction someplace where there's no interest....

Brent I'ld about guess that CSA would build you one that looked just like that one, about all you need do is place the order and write the check...

One thing for sure and certain. You don't see anyone selling their Shiloh so they can buy a Pedersoli. On the other hand..

I'd love to have a Shiloh but then I always rode Harleys even though I knew Hondas were better bikes. I don't think the Pedersoli's are better rifles, I do think they are generally more accurate rifles.

If you get the higher end Shilohs, the fit and finish is very attractive.

2009 Raton BPCR Nationals
1st - Shiloh
2nd - Meacham Hi Wall
3rd - Shiloh
4th - Shiloh
5th - Other
6th - Shiloh
7th - C Sharps
8th - C Sharps
9th - Winchester Hi Wall
10th - Meacham Hi Wall

Even the plain Jane Shiloh's the fit and finish is attractive.

I might be wrong on this, but several years ago Pedersoli started the 5 @ 200 I think to promote his rifles and I think the pedersoli's seldom finished on top.
But like I said I might be wrong, wont be the first time.

As far as the Shiloh finish; there is no difference between the plain Jane and the highly decked out east coats parlor gun they are all excellent fit and finish.

Pedersoli also had a MOA challenge out there for a while. I believe the only person to meet the challenge did so with a Browning/Miroku highwall.

"I do think they are generally more accurate rifles"

"Think",...that's the operative word in your little thesis.

Lots of us here KNOW , and have formulated ours on longer, and WAY broader experience bases.

The later Pedersoli barrels MARKEDLY improved over the earlier quality,....as did their reamer designs, but than again, so did the REST of the industry, in the same time period.

The SQUAREST Sharps '74 I've ever worked on (and I've worked on "A Few") is a Shilo, and the general evidence of "The Builder gave a Rat's azz" is clearly and unquestionably weighted to the American built arms.

To say that the stock Pedersoli is "Generally more accurate" is horsechit, Mister, and their product support SUCKS.

GTC

That's fine, I'm not willing to let the fact that Shiloh makes an attractive, expensive, and hard to get rifle plus personal bias cloud my judgement. I just wanted best accuracy.

"When you find yourself in a hole, the first step is to stop digging"

Last time I checked the entry level Shilohs came with plain wood and matte finished metal. Has that changed?

plain wood and action is case colored finish.

It seems like you have to get above $2000.00 to get nicely blued metal.

No, I don't think they could. Their 75 is quite different I believe.

Gulf Breeze Firearms has quite a few of the Dakota Sharps rifles and they seem nice.

They are not a full sized rifle.

They are also overpriced at 4K+++++++.

Swampy- you are an idiot.

Bullschit.

Every rifle discussed here has nicely blued metal for under 2k.

Really the website says matte finished on the afforadable Shilohs.

Did you have a point? They are a full sized rifle, they just are a full scale 1874 Sharps replica like the Shiloh.

To get a nicely finished Shiloh it's easy to spend 4K.

That is BS and you know it Swampy. The last one I got from Shiloh is a gorgeous #3 Sporter, semi-fancy wood, 30" heavy bbl in 45-90. Placed my order on a Friday and had it in hand the following Thursday. They had one in stock that fit what I wanted - couldn't have custom ordered one any closer to what I wanted, although I woudn't have ordered the semi-fancy stock. Didn't cost anywhere near $4k either. The "personal bias" is the key in your sentence (actually more like "personal opinion"). If you don't want to get a Shiloh . . . that's fine, but everybody is entitled to do make their own choices, right or wrong.

One thing for sure and certain. You don't see anyone selling their Shiloh so they can buy a Pedersoli. On the other hand."
--Sharpsguy

Now that is d*mn true and funny too!....

Good point. That one sure rings true.

My point is that early everything you have posted on this entire thread is utter bullschit.

The Dakota Arms Sharps are NOT full sized Sharps rifles.
They are 3/4 sized "LIL" Sharps.

A standard model Shiloh 1874 with standard finish and wood IS nicely finished and blued at less than 2K. I have owned several and just put in an order for another one.

It's as nicely finished as any standard Dakota Arms model 10 at over 4K. Only a clueless jackass like yourself who's never actually held any of them would even argue to point.

Given your penchant for plastic stocked Walmart Remington bolt guns, you would not know a nicely finished rifle if it hit you up side the head.

swampy getting his ass handed to him again, nothing new....

C Sharps has been building top line 77s for YEARS now.

GTC

77s are not 75s. Not even close. The original 75 and the CSA 75 are quite different.

This is a 75


I posted a photo of my 77 earlier.

E Blair the OP, asked for advice to buy a C Sharps High Wall reproduction or to get a Browning reproduction High Wall.Don't see where he made any inquiry about Shiloh at all.He wants a High Wall reproduction ,not a 74,75,or 77 Sharps copy. Std Shiloh blue is dull if you want a mirror blue you order the polished barrel @ $132 extra. C.Sharps also offers extras and options at extra cost. Pedersoli makes a reproduction that sorta looks like a 74 Sharps ,no extras,no options and costs alot for what you get. My 2 cts worth Magnum Man

You've got to be joking....These guys don't know $hit from Shinola.

You Sir, are the most delusion [bleep] I have ever seen post here.

I just don't let personal bias keep me away from good inexpensive firearms. I appreciate expensive guns, but they have to perform. I wanted an American made rifle but all of the local BPCR shooters said don't waste your money. I even tried shooting them side by side. Being a name dropper is cool but twice the money for a so so shooter isn't within my budget.

Well, whoever the "local BPCR shooters" you talked to were full of schit and obviously speaking from the same level of financial and intellectual poverty you speak from..The blind leading the blind.

Pedersolis and other imported guns shoot just fine(most of the time) but anyone who has actually owned samples of those rifles will tell you that a Pedersoli is not as well built or finely finished as a Shiloh or C. Sharps. Only a blind man would make that claim. And I have never heard of any Shiloh or C Sharps who made the claim that their rifles did not shoot extremely well when simply fed decent ammo and aimed correctly.

Accuracy was my primary concern. I would have paid $2000.00 for a Shiloh if they were more accurate.

An understatement to be sure. Ever see him wearing that goofy hat? Man I wish I would have kept the picture when he posted it. What an idiot.

My first reproduction Sharps was a Pedersoli that I ordered from Cabela's when they first stocked them. now I have 6 Shiloh's and one being build. There has to be a reason.
I don't know what the imports selling for now and I don't care. I learn fast what not to get again. The hammer on the import started to look like the head of a chisel after getting beat on with a hammer. The main spring broke in a short time. The tang sight flopped back and forth, Tried to tighten it up and it held for two range sessions well It's laying in the weeds. Went to using the ladder sight and the slide would not hold in position. The lever started to grind down on the lever spring to the point that it was uneven on the spring face.
I called Pedersoli in Italy and talked to a very polite lady to get a credit for the expense of replacement parts and all I got was "i'm sorry to hear about your problem with the rifle"

I always say first time it/s your fault second time it's my fault.

A Shiloh might cost a little more, cant say this for sure, but the quality and customer service and the lifetime warranty is second to none.

Kurt

How many National BPCR Silhouttte championships have been won with Pedersolis '74 rifles?

Answer -NONE.

Shiloh 1874s have won at least 5. All of them with factory barrels.

Every Shiloh rifle I have owned could shoot MOA or less 3 shot groups with shaded iron sights at 100 yards from the bench. Smokeless or BP loads. The Pedersolis I have owned were no more accurate than that.

The only way a Shiloh rifle would be inaccruate is if some dumbass like you was shooting it.

So you have experience or no?

If not why are you giving advice on this subject?

I've said it before, you remind me of a prize-fighter who keeps blocking punches with his face, you take a beating everyday, but never learn anything...

And that's whole point dip $hit. For twice the money and a one year wait the Shiloh should be quite a bit more accurate.

None of those winning Shilohs were even remotely stock OEM rifles. We all know and accept that.

I like the Shiloh and if I had disposeable income I might buy one. As it is I feel very comfortable with some of the inexpensive rifles. They are very attractive and accurate. You know I'm right no matter what you say. I know I'm right too. If want to advise folks to waste their money, that's up to you. If I were looking to invest just for resale and not looking for a shooter the Shiloh would be my 1st choice. I have no concern that you fellows think you are winning these exchanges because you haven't yet.

Swampturd,

YOU are the only "dipschit" here.

As long as a no talent dumbazz like you is not shooting them- A Shiloh is as inherently accurate as any other 2k Rifle.

Your comment about the Shilohs that have won National championships not being stock is an utter LIE and truly shows how little you know about BPCR shooting or Shiloh rifles. Which makes sense because your dumb hillbilly azz has never even BEEN to a BPCR Nationals.

Most if not all of those Championship winning Shilohs had all their factory parts. You see VERY few rebarreled Shilohs on a BPCR line and when you do its simply because the owner wanted a caliber change,certainly not because the origional tube did not shoot.

Our own Sharpsguy shoots Nationals and his rifles are all standard from Shiloh.

So were both the Shilohs I have used at the BPCR nats..And my factory Shiloh barrels outshot a whole lot of custom barreled rifles. Box stock Shilohs do it every year. No need at all for a custom tube if you own a Shiloh and can load ammo and shoot well. Which pretty much rules out Swampturd.

Y'all can keep blowin' smoke as long as you want to. We all know that I'm right.

The [bleep] is your problem ?

GTC

No, as noted, you're a delusional mouthy IDIOT.

GTC

Brent,

We werecarving Sharps Actions outta' BILLET up in B.C. in the 1970s.

I handled and SHOT the prototype C.Sharps '75 with my friend Schofstal (World Creedmoor 2002) before they went into production. I've also gotten to handle and drool on some beautiful Axtel 77s', and enjoy the smiles of the Fair Carmen Axtel.

Thanks for the Historical advice, and the basics briefing.....I kinda' thought we were on the same page,...

You pretty much assume that you're an oracle of some sort, and nobody else ever played with these damn things, I guess.

GTC

who's "WE" ?

GTC

+1,000

These "Re-enactors" are by and large that way, they've READ everything they know,....about every damn thing they mouth off about.

Shooting experience,....as in CASES of powder, and THOUSANDS of high quality home cast bullets from QUALITY Molds, outta' QUALITY Rifles ?

....er, not so much.

GTC

I'm sure I've sent ment more high quality home cast bullets down range than you have or will. I just can't throw away $1000.00 to be a name dropper. You girls apparently can.

Posted 12/09/11 07:16 PM

Now , a coupla' months later you're some sorta' "Oracle" ?

...more like some sorta AZZWHOLE, Mister.

GTC

Post pics of your molds and bullets,....NOW.

Not that you're going to,...you [bleep]' well can't, gasbag.

GTC

12/10/11

" This one is marked Navy Arms. I was looking for reviews or test reports.

I sincerely doubt that.

And you have also never shot BPCR in National competition.

I can tell that by the lies you tell about it.

You are the worst poser on this site and one dumb Sonofabitch to boot.

I know teenage kids with more real gun knowledge than you have.

I've shot plenty of high quality cast bullets in dozens of different guns for nearly 50 years. I've never said anything about BPCR Competition since I'm not interested in it.

Your post had some errors as you wrote it so I corrected it for you. You can thank me later.

Hey, Mark . . . still shootin' them pot-metal locks on your MLs??? Better keep shootin' them cuz you sure as he!! don't know anything about BPCR guns.

fixed,

GTC

Well, fair Carmen has her legion of admirers for certain. But I've never met her, and I've only spoken with her once on the phone myself. I will say however, for as fair as she may have been and as sleek as her rifles appearedm they were not always well made. And that's being polite. That one of mine in particular. I could tell you about a pile of others as well. Or you could come to Raton and I could introduce you to a few folks.

Meanwhile, some fancy machine work and a new barrel fixed saved my 77 from the scrap heap.

I know the difference between 77s and the real 75s. And I know how to make my 77 shoot, but it was no easy road. You can call that oracling or whatever the hell you want.

The "English Sharps" is an inherently WEAK design, and Carmen Axtel was left with the mess her HUSBAND made outta' those weak wristed pretties.

Raton ?

Hey, careful, what you wish for there, Mister.

GTC

Yes I know all the sordid stories. Has zip to do with making a rifle correctly, and this one wasn't. Ditto for many others. Before and after the lonely senorita.

And if the 77 is a weak design, you must be the only savant in the universe to discover the fact. They are plenty strong - just not built right.

Raton - I'll be there - you not so likely. Wishing ain't got [bleep] to do with it.

Right, removing the MASSIVE, THICK RHS lockplate, that was KEYED and massively screwed, integral to the '74 receiver, and replacing it with a spindly little English sidelock, and WOOD all hogged out like an English Shotgun's wrist (per the '77) made a "Strong" design.

Right Brett, sure, whatever you say there.

GTC

Okay Mr. Oracle. See you in Raton, and you can watch my 77 fly apart...

Go pick on Swampman. He needs your support.

You're pretty good pickin' on Women, it would seem.

LOTS of folks in the BPCR community kinda' like her ya' know.

GTC

I'll keep shooting MOA groups with my $600.00 gun. You girls can keep holding each other's hand and telling yourselves it was money well spent.

Swampturd, you've never shot MOA groups with iron sights on ANY rifle.

Another one of your delusions.

Facts are facts. She may be very likable. I'm sure she is. But her rifles are messed up, and I bet you know the truth of it. But if not, give Kirk Bryan a call - after all, he bought her jigs and moulds to start making the 77s. He is still trying to bring them up to Shiloh standards.

I know Carmen Axtel I shot along side her several times and talked to her, she is a very pleasant likable Lady. But Brent is right about the 77. I have a friend that has one and it has been a thorn in his side since he got it and the company never stood behind it to make it right.

Please SOMEBODY find that picture of Swampstink in his Little Lord Flauntleroy hat and costume!

It's not worth the time,

He can always take off the hat, but it's impossible for him to change his IQ.

The fact that we've acknowledged his existence will be his highlight of this week.

I just hate to see you girls lead someone astray because you're connected with the company that makes the products you push. We have enough of that here on the CVA forum. Just tell the truth and let the newbies decided for themselves. That's what I do.....A well made rifle is cool but it must shoot really well to be worth all that extra cash and the wait. Don't let the dollar signs cloud your judgement. More expensive doesn't always mean better.

Swampschit.

Nobody here has any "connection" with Shiloh or any other rifle company except that UNLIKE YOU , most posters on this thread have actually owned and shot them.I can tell you've never even held a Shiloh rifle in your hands due to the BS you spew about them.

Your total BPCR poser status has already been exposed on this thread dated two months ago-

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5901571/Info_For_Sharps#Post5901571

Nothing there indicates my BPCR "status" because I have none (want none) nor did I imply that I did. I shoot all kinds of rifles and frequently. A BPCR is just another rifle. I've shot several Shilohs and handled a bunch more. I wish they were more accurate than the cheaper rifles.

I do agree with that statement . . . AND it shows . . . a LOT.

I wish your posts had a shred of truth in them.

I haven't posted anything but the truth. I'm not trying to make money off the newbies.

Another delusional lie from you.

Nobody here is making one thin dime refuting your horseschit.

I have also shot along side her a couple of times and thought she was a good shot as well as interesting to talk to. The 77's were allways a problem and Brent was told that when he wanted rubberstamp approval of buying his on the Shiloh forum. Fair is fair Carmen's ok, 77's suck and Brent is still a wolf hugger as well as other less complimentary things. Magnum Man

You can't find that post on Shiloh now can you?

Why the lie?

They are friendly with the company and help push their gear. That can't hurt when you need something expensive.

No, but what can hurt is when some new guy takes the advice of a clueless troll such as yourself..

Nobody here is "pushing" anything, just refuting the outright lies you tell about the quality rifles you cannot begin to afford.

Sawmpturd, you are a liar and an idiot.

The last poster was to kind,....

You're a TOXIC idiot, and would corrupt the smell of everyday sh$t.

Minute of angle ?

With that Carbine ?

Oh, I got it,.....one rageed hole at 11 feet.

Bugger off Swampy, ....just bugger the [bleep] off.

GTC

No lie at all, several people told you 77 Axtells had issues and did not allways get fixed to correct the problem. But you bought it anyway because like all liberals you only listen to your self and can't ever admit to making a mistake. Magnum Man

I finally realized trying to counter the swampster's lies and exaggerations with reality just wasn't doing any good at all. Kinda like teachin' a pig to sing, ya just get frustrated and the pig enjoys it . . . and put him back on ignore. Couldn't stand reading his crap anymore.

I would suggest that for all . . .

Typical typical. Anonymous dipshit coward can't back up his words as usual.

I just searched my own posts and they go all the way back to 2004. I bought the rifle in about 2009. So, pony up - if you can. Of course that is impossible.

Yeah, about the same for Magnum Man. He just makes up lies like Swampy. Maybe he IS Swampy

Wow, I am not sure what I started here! I had been looking at the C. Sharps and the Shiloh Sharps sights and was thinking of getting a cartridge rifle to shoot at the range and maybe do some hunting with. There was a C. Sharps '74 in a local gun shop and that is about the only one I've seen, so maybe I need to get out to Big Timber and take a look at the rifles. Or get out to a BPCR shoot. Any big ones coming up on the east coast?

Eblair, Ridgeway in Pennsylvania, River Bend in Georgia, Camp Atterbury in Ohio, Friendship In, and the occasional creedmoor match at Quantico.


hehe nice to see the professor getting a failing grade on his guesstimate of who magnum man is....

E Blair - You didn't start anything. You asked some questions and some of us tried to give realistic and truthful responses, based on our experiences, as well as try to point you down the right path. But you are an intelligent grownup and are, hopefully , able to weigh everything said and make up your own mind. There are none if us here, that I am aware of anyhow, who are set to gain anything of monetary value by preferring one manufacturer of BPCR rifles over another, as one stoner has suggested. As with most things in life, there is personal preference . . . and that is all. It is true, you can buy a Pedersoli for less money than a Shiloh Sharps or C Sharps, BUT, the latter two will keep or increase their value over time and, in all probability, a Pedersoli will not - and with the prices of the Pedersolis at this time, the difference is much less than in the past. I am making that comparison based on NEW rifles, not the occassional discounted used carbine some are. I bought a new Shiloh ten years ago, I bought another last fall - the price difference was about $400 between the two. The latest one has semi-fancy wood, the first one doesn't.

Anyway, E Blair, stick around and keep asking questions. We will all try to assist in any way we can. It will, however, be up to you to sift the pepper from the flyschitt.

EBlair,
I just got a note of a rebarreled .40-65 '74 Sharps. The barrel is a Badger put on by John King, so it is likely a very good shooter. Being an early Shiloh, it might be a bit more affordable (no price was given). Shoot me an PM if you want more details, I doubt it will last long.

If you're looking for an investment, the Shilohs are great for that. If you are a shooter, one is as good as the other based on actual experience, and the experience of 20-30 local BPCR shooters. I'm not sellin' nothin.

Sure, you are selling something..

Your own special brand of BULLSCHIT.

As usual Brent you can't confront the TRUTH without resorting to screaming and shouting obscenities or accusing someone of lying. Like all liberals you feel right about everything and aren't guilty of anything until caught and convicted. The problem is you have little to no credability. Just like the wolf issue you don't have them for neighbors and they are not eating your livestock or ruining your livelyhood.You just think they are needed because you want them and everybody else doesn't count. You are so used to being able to abuse your position as a Prof at IA st by shoving everything down students throats that are worried about passing your class ,you think you can do that to everyone. Trouble is I am all done at school and don't let people like you bother me anymore. If anything its kinda fun watching you come off like an imbecile.No cussing or jumping up and down,just this from the Shiloh forum by klw on the 77 Axtell Sharps

"Had one. Absolutely beautiful gun. BUT it broke every single time I shot it. Returned it four times.

After the third return I called rather upset. The owner, a man, told me that if I wanted a gun that was reliable that I shouldn't have bought one of his. His were identical to the originals and the originals have problems. I have no idea if that is true or not but I am positive that that is what he said.

Sold it. Told the buyer this story. He was buying his fourth. Loved Axtel guns. But he also said that they broke a lot. VERY FREQUENTLY!

So they break a lot. Doesn't seem to bother the owners but it sure pi@@ed me off. And the company owner could not have cared less. I believe that he is no longer with the firm. In a divorce his wife got the company.

This story was, within my experience, not unique.

Buy a Shiloh or a Pedersoli but not an Axtel!"


Choke on it Brent, magnum Man

"Well, klw, be that as it may, I'm going to take the plunge anyway. Always wanted a 77."

Brent

For those who need a link http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9264

Magnum Man

Good advise......

Swampy, if you're going to quote someone get it right and don't modify it to suit your needs. klw said that not me. Also keep in mind that I have 3 Shilohs and no Pedersolis because the BEST is allways worth saving for and so I did. Magnum Man

I suppose it all depends on how you define BEST.

STFU and go shoot a ten shot "MOA" string with that silly little Sharps actioned torture device,....and get back to us.

BPCR,..,...that last letter (the R)?

WTF did you get the idea that this was a BPCC site ?

"MOA",....Jesus wept.

GTC

Have you been drinking again? My carbine is just one of my BPCRs.

You need Midol...It will help your sore vagina.

See, I knew you could do it.

But notice there is exactly one person who complained about Axtells. And that was that they broke - not that they were made to be inaccurate. Not exactly a stampede of negativity is it?

Anyway, come to Phoenix next month and speak up a like a man instead hiding behind your anonymity.

Maybe Swampy will come and show us how it is all done, and GTC will be there shooting MOA all day long

HEPBURNS RULE!

It's funny that you mention that considering your avitar.

Due to the severe drop in the buttstocks, the only way a Hepburn or a Roller is comfortable to shoot is if you have a face shaped like a Mule..

I have heard owners do resemble their critters or maybe their single shots to. Mules and Hepburns are amongst the handsomest critters and rifles. Thanks for the compliment!

guess there are a lot of mules in the game then. Ulsher, Gullo, Rix, Zimmerman (of course - he makes them) and many more. Lots of Heps are on the firing line these days, and growing every year I think.

A very small sample. And not very good examples, either.

I know all those men pretty well. Most likely shot matches with them WAY before you did.

Gullo and Rix are good guys and I know for a fact Gullo would much rather shoot a Borchardts than Heburns or Rollers in terms of shooting comfort..

Zimmerman sells Heburns and by the way he shoots them most of the time, he's hardly an example of their effectiveness.Even he would admit that..

Buthc Ulsher actually IS an Ass, which is even you know is different than a Mule. Ulsher is one of the few folks in the world that I WOULD wish pain on when shooting BPCR.

He deserves to shoot a Hepburn.

I re-Barreled one of D.Z's Hepburns for Chip Mate, #13, IIRC....Called Dan about an extractor blank, he was really helpful, and we spun a few yarns, in the process of getting the blank happening. Met him at the Rat some years later, at a regionals,....nice guy.

The quality evident in that rifle, and everything of DZ manufacture I've seen since is just flat SUPERB, with exemplary care and attention to finishing internally, in places that seldom see daylight.

GTC

Dan Z is a damn good machinist/craftsman.

Amoung the very best in BPCR.

Guys, seriously, would you consider ANYTHING recommended by this goofball? Swampturd and his little gay hat:

Yup, he also turns out a lot of good parts for Winchesters along with an extend range version of Unertl mounts that work for most folks but not for me. And he shoots Hepburns with the best of them, plus he is a nice guy.

There are growing numbers of Heps at the matches.

Ulsher is a good guy - you just have to know where he's coming from.

I wouldn't call an exact replica of Robert E. Lee's hat gay...but then I don't post while drunk.

You could have Christie Brinkley on your head and you'd still look gay...

At least I didn't vote for Obama like you did. Are you proud of that?

If that's the best you can come up with, don't even bother..

that's deranged,....just plumb deranged.

UHhhh, I take it you don't know the gent ?

GTC

I know him well....

I agree with Otter. You didn't start anything.

As to Sharps, I'm not as experienced as some. I have owned two of the older type "1874" replicas made in Italy, a real 1859 Cavalry Conversion Carbine, two 1874 newer Pedersolis and a Shiloh. The first two aren't even exact replicas. The two newer Pedersolis are nice weapons. The old, antique Sharps was what it was. The Shiloh is best of all, better even than the antique-of course it was nearly new and the antique was very old.

The Shiloh I got shot hunting groups right after I got it home with non-tailored ammo that probably has bullets too short for the twist. Longer, heavier ones will probably dial it in even better when I get to that. Point-being, they are accurate guns with great potential. These aren't even handloads tailored to the rifle.

The Pedersolis are okay but not in the class of a Shiloh. IMO they are too high for what they are. A Quigley model which has some upgrades, is probably $1500 new whereas you can probably spend $700 more and get a Shiloh. To me, it's not worth the savings to fool with the Italian gun, plus you get an heirloom that was made here by people here with the Shiloh. I don't think you could find a $600 Pedersoli now that was one of the newer, desirable ones.

I tailored loads and shot my little carbine too. It was fun with real black and 500 grain homemade bullets. The old guns are old guns though and a carbine is not the same as an 1874 hunter, buffalo, target, silhouette or whatever gun.

I wouldn't have one of the early Italian guns. One of mine wouldn't even fire though it was brand-new, just out of the box. Those guns show up quite a bit and don't even look right.

Tell you what there, ace, next time I go to NPA to visit the In-Laws, I'll stop by Mary Esther and we can discuss how well you know me, Mr. Lewis...

Oh, your last retort was SO stinging and original, I'm having a hard time coping with your put down...

Ignore swampbooger and his limp wristed hat and talk about the attributes of single shots. Did I mention that Hepburn�s Rule!

LOL...why did you start this if you don't like it? Just another campfire bully....

Yep, the "Flush Handle Kingdom" is a happy and prosperous land.

Just teasing, outside of those stupid trapdoors, I pretty much love em' all. Even a trapdoor can become a thing of beauty, properly worked over.

GTC

Now that flush handle shooter subject came up I have a Question for you that shoot one.
In the past I have had rolling blocks and just never could warm up to them because of the stock configuration, to low in the heal.
This works fine for hunting situations shooting off hand or leaning against a tree, but shooting long range past 600 yards I cant get the cheek weld I want with out curling my fingers over the comb.
I have shot the original Hepburn and they aren't any better.
How are you that shoot the Hepburn's getting along with them at long range? can the tangs be bent a little or will this screw up the trigger bar to much?
I have the opportunity to get a original in the .44-100 straight complete with the heal sight mount and sights.

Kurt

Being that I think Hepburns are the best looking single shots I will be the first to admit they are not the best for the long range game. I do however enjoy shooting them and have been able to shoot them well at long range. Scores are deffintly better out to 1K with my Sharps rifles though.

An original Hep in 44-100 is a dandy to own, have one and a Roller in 44-90. Both are shooters and do extremly well.

If you pass on buying it let me know if you would, I can be interested in it. Also interested any original Rolling Block sporters and target rifles.

Trapdoors are an aquired taste and are fun to shoot but a pain to clean. Have been looking for a cadet rifle for years but have always been one step behind when it came to a nice one.

Take a Midol Swamp-homo, I just wanted to let you know I can stop by anytime and we can discuss things. No threat intended or implied, but given how "popular" you are here I can see where you could get nervous.

Kurt have you asked Dick about how he gets along with his CSA hepburn?
I know he shot it at one of the Alliance shoots, but can't remember which one...

nathenial.

This sale is not cut in stone. Been trying to get this rifle now for several years and his mind has changed every time when it came down to the "OK"
He is a good friend and his Rem. collection is large.
Like I said I never could get warmed up to the drop in the stock they have but I sure would like to have one. It wont get away from me if I hear the "OK"

I have two trap doors one is a Montana rifle and the other is a Pennsylvania that has been cut down but who ever did it done a fine job and the bore is flawless and a good hunting rifle.

Don,

I didn't know he had one. Must be holding out on me.

I want an original one Don.

Yeh the one he's got is in 40-65 and it was one of the first if not the first CSA shipped. He got sidetracked by that Wesson rifle, then fell head over heels in love with the matched pair of 110's from CSA.... Think he said he shot that Hepburn the other day with some patched bullets, and was getting some good results,,, or maybe it was the Wesson... Heck I can't remember the boy's got more rifles than you do...

Man I didn't think anyone had more then me LOL

hehe been about 2 weeks since he's emailed a picture of a new gun... hope he's feelin ok..lol
Altho he did send a few pics of the table him and Biggun had set up at the Souix Falls gunshow. They were there just giving a demonstration on bpcr stuff. Looked like the Shiloh and C Sharps catalogs in reallife.... Said they had a ton of interest and maybe recruited some new shooters.

This past weekend I shot in a BPCR silhouette match, and was paired with a fellow who was shooting a C. Sharps high wall, so I had a fairly good opportunity to look at the rifle and observe its performance.

As those in the world of BPCRs are aware, Shiloh sets a high standard for fit and finish, as well as performance. Few rifles at any price, including many full custom jobs, are the equal to Shiloh in fit and finish. It is simply awesome what this small, family owned rifle manufacturer can produce in a production or at most semi-custom rifle at a very fair price. Shiloh offers terrific value.

Though the C. Sharps did not seem to be the equal of Shiloh in the appearance details, it was a very nice rifle. I saw nothing about the rifle that would turn me away from owning one. As I told Mr. Blair in a PM, if I wanted an 1885 in its original form (as opposed to a Browning), I wouldn't hesitate to get a C. Sharps. They sell their action separately, and one would be my choice as a basis for a custom 1885.

Paul

Reading this entire posting has been a 'gasser'!! Thought I'd have to go change my drawers at least 3 times at comments made!! Come on back with more guys! I've got lots of popcorn yet!!