I want a second set of 45-70 dies for loading black powder loads for my Sharps. I have a set for my smokeless loads, but don't want to have to reset dies...

Thanks for the help.

What are you wanting to do differently for your smokeless vs blackpowder case prep? The only thing I do differently is that I put enough crimp on my smokeless 45-70 loads to keep the bullet in place for use in my lever gun. I seat the bullets in my BP loads with my thumb and don't crimp at all.

Get another set of dies if you need to. If you are looking for a brand name recommendation, Lee dies are fairly inexpensive - that's all I have used for my 45-70s. Heck I even use my 45-70 dies for my 45-90 . . . If you are looking for "free" dies or somebody's used set of dies, somebody else will have to step up because you can't have mine .

Don't know if that is the help you wanted or not, but it's what I have to offer.

Get the Lyman or the RCBS legacy dies. The "M" die can double up as a compression die, and the nose cups in those are more suited to the softer lead bullets we use with blackpowder.

Hard to argue with THAT.

....though the "Some neck tension" v. "thumb seat as fireformed" argument should be good for another CENTURY of discussion, as to relative merits.

The quest continues.

GTC

GTC

Note: I seldom FL size my BPCR brass, so I don't choose my dies around a FL sizer, and I mix and match. I prefer Lyman dies for most operations because of their versatility and low cost. A Lyman neck size die works well for my .40 and .45s. I tried a Meacham bushing die, and found I prefer the Lyman. Where BP loading differs from smokeless is the need for special expanding and compression plugs. Lyman dies have a 9/16" stem thread, and you can use M die bodies with various plugs. Buffalo Arms sells both expanding and compression plugs in various sizes, and I also make my own on a lathe. What I am trying to say is that with one or more Lyman M die bodies (they are made in two lengths), you can use the same body with different plugs. Seating dies are the one place I splurge a bit, as I prefer the Redding Competition seater. These days I have one in .40-65 for my .40-82, and I use a .45-70 seater for .45-70 and .45-90. The Lyman taper crimp dies also work well, and I use one for the final step with my .45-70 paper patch loads.

Paul

Thumb seating bullets in unsized, fireformed cases.....yep, me too.
Pete

All the nuances for the easiest most efficient way to load will be given me by the best in the industry, I am just looking for the dies to accomplish that.

Thanks, keep it coming...

To expand a bit on my choice of dies for expanding and compression, the Lyman M die body is inside threaded for a 9/16-18 plug, and the Redding and RCBS for a 1/2-20. Obviously, it is more convenient to pick one size and stick to it. The Lyman M dies are cheap and readily available, but I also use the appropriate die body from my RCBS and Redding dies. Sometimes a die can do double duty. If my memory serves correctly, I use the body from a RCBS seater die to take the expander for my .40-82. A Lyman universal decapper body has the same thread as the M expander body. Any die body that has the correct internal thread through the die, no sizing or crimping section, can work for expanding and compressing.

Paul

Caseneck tension vs no tension is largely the choice of the rifle and the load.
I also notice on the 2 rifles that can shoot unsized cases with accuracy, after about the 3rd firing chambering gets a bit stiff, but full length resizing brings things back to normal, and does not affect accuracy.

10-4 on that, Ranch. With factory chambers and dies, it is usually a matter of luck to get things just so right out of the box, so to speak, That's where the custom plugs can help.

Shooters who are really serious about optimizing fit, including slip seating of bullets, sometimes order a custom chamber designed to fit their brass and bullets of choice.

Paul

'scuse this newbie for asking a question, at lthis point...

I know that a tight bullet fit isn't required for functioning in a single shot, but Dave Scovil published some test results a few years ago, where he studied the effect of bullet fit and crimp strength, on .45 Colt ammo. Tight bullet fit and a firm crimp produced the best accuracy, and least velocity variation, and a crimp by itself did not attain the same results. The bullet fit was adjusted by turning down the expander plug - a "tight" fit was defined as the plug at least .005" smaller than bullet diameter. I've followed that method for some years now, with anything that uses a straight case, be it revo or autoloader, with good results.

Realizing we're talking big soft bullets, black powder, and often-times paper patched bullets in BPCR, do those constraints make it impractical to have tight fitting bullets? Or have folks tried it and found that "slip fitting" BPCR bullets actually gives the best overall results? Thanks in advance for answering a rookie's question.

That seems to be the gist of it right there. If anybody is achieving BPCR accuracy with more than just a slight crimp, to remove the bell from the case mouth, or to just barely hold a paper patched bullet in the case, I've never heard of it. I don't bother removing the very slight bell from my .40-82 cartridges, as they chamber smoothly and it shoots fine. I once had a .45-90 barrel that needed use of the taper crimp die in order to chamber rounds easily, but the difference was slight, not more than a thousandth or two.

As with most handloading, the less repeated working of the brass, the better.

Paul

I have Lee & Lyman but since I got the Lymans I don't use the Lees any more.

I know this is a stupid question but why don't you crimp the BP loads. I always did for my 45/70 as well as my 50/70 no matter which powder I was using. I diden't want a bullet coming loose accidently.

Believe it or not a crimp is not necessary on black powder loads, but some neck tension is. I just want a different set of dies to accomplish that, as I have my other dies in a tool head for loading my smokeless loads and don't want to pull them, readjust them from load to load.

Isn't crimping just a way to ensure or add to neck tension, i.e., resistance to pull?

What most BPCR shooters do if they crimp at all is to just remove any case neck bell, and sometimes even that isn't necessary. In loading shallow seated paper patched bullets for target loads, a slight crimp helps keep the bullet from falling out. I can turn a round upside down and the bullet stays in, but it can be turned or pulled out with my fingers.

Paul

Crimping is to keep the bullet from going forward or backward in the case for whatever reason. My 1886 needs the bullets crimped to keep from pushing the bullets back into the case under recoil in the magazine tube. They are also loaded with smokeless powder and don't fill the case to the base of the bullet like a black powder load would do.

Talking to MLV, Butch, and Ted Tompkins, it seems as they all use some type of seating tension on their loads and they do shoot, compete and win matches, so I always defer to the most successful tendencies...

Should be obvious, but uniformity of case neck tension is the important thing, and even annealing my cases I haven't been able to perfect it.

One reason some shooters just slip fit or finger seat is that the whole neck tension issue becomes moot.

As anybody who knows me is aware, I don't pay much attention to what "everybody" or "the top shooters" do. I don't ignore it, of course, but it always comes down to what works best for the individual shooter and his equipment.

If you study this game, and particularly the works of such writers as Venturino and Matthews, you'll find that they have changed their views on certain things over the years. Not that much is set in stone. Best to read their works in the order they were written.

Back to neck tension, the target and chronograph will tell the story.

Paul

I just received my new set of Redding dies - FL set plus a Competition seating die, and checking the expander plug, it measures .452 dia. Looks like it is designed to leave a fair amount of neck tension in the case.

To the folks that try for little or no tension, do they use a larger expander plug, or get a neck size die that sizes less?

You might be able to find a neck die that sizes to an optimal OD, but it's not likely to be easy or cheap. I bought a Meacham neck die with interchangable bushings, but never really liked it. I'd be willing to sell it. I find that the Lyman neck size die works well for my .40 and .45s, but it does need an expander. My approach is to size and expand, but minimally. Separate dies, of course.

The .452 factory expander plug is too small for grease grooved bullets, IMO. I have an assortment of plugs from Buffalo Arms and homemade, from .458 to close to .460. If you have a Redding die, you can get custom plugs from BACO. Assuming a grease groove bullet, I'd order a .459, or if you want a tighter fit maybe .458. About $20. They do vary in their precision, up to about .0005 in my experience. And you can feel a half thousandth.

If you have access to a lathe, you can make your own plugs, 1/2-20 thread for a Redding. A bigger problem is finding a threaded collar like the ones that come with BACO plugs. I make mine by tapping a smooth aluminum clamp collar one size under diameter. I suspect that's what BACO does too. Simple job with a lathe.

A tip: I color code my plugs and die bodies with a dab of paint. Really helps keep the combos straight.

Paul

Crimp has mostly been shown to be somewhat detremental to accuracy especially using soft bullets. Neck tension to hold the bullet in place either by way of sizing the case or bullet diameter has prooven for the most part to deliver the best results shooting blackpowder.
Many of us that shoot Shiloh rifles don't even resize the cases at all, shooting a 458-459 diameter greasegroove bullet all one needs do is mildly flair the case mouth to accept the bullet base with damage, thumb it into place atop the powder charge , remove the flare and the rounds are good to go, either winning matches or making the oneshot bang flop on game.
Crimp in a paperpatched load can really wreck any chances of accuracy if not carefully applied.Again using neck tension loaded rounds will not come apart even in hunting situations.
Crimp is the offspring of the cannelure on the cases used in the early smokeless days to keep the bullet from settling into the case or compressing the powder. Cannelures are still in use in 38spec target loads.
Hubert you may find the reloading instructions contained in the Sharps,Remington and Winchester catalogs from the 1870's most enlightening if you decide to pursue blackpowder cartridge shooting.

Probably just restating the obvious, but the important point of this thread is that any crimp used with lead BPCR bullets should be minimal, just enough to keep things together or permit smooth chambering - no more.

It is nothing like the crimps used with pistol or lever action rounds.

Paul

I am considering getting a sharps but don't know if I want one for metal cartridges, or if I want the ones that shoot the paper cartridges. I think the paper cartridge one would be more fun.. anyone use the paper cartridge ones?? advice?

You might want to post your question as a separate thread, since this one is about loading dies, i.e., brass cartridges.

I don't know anything about paper cartridges.

Also, you might want to check out the Shiloh forum. Much more comprehensive info than what is available here. They might even have a section dedicated to such rifles. I don't know off hand.

Edit: Yep, here ya go http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=8

Paul