I wonder if this will hurt Cummins as much as it did VW. I'm guessing nobody with one of the trucks with the engines will voluntarily get them "fixed".

You know the EPA Nazi's will throw the book at them.

It sounds like they already did but doesn't sound like anyone is going to jail. You'd think that this would put Cummins out of business.

Haha, this fine is like a drop of fkn rainwater on your reading glasses. Its nothing. Cummins made 8.4 billion in the 3rd quarter of 2023. They've also boasted about record profits with all these inflated prices they demand for their sht. $33.29 billion in revenue in a 12 month period.

Read some of the historical quarterly reports:

https://investor.cummins.com/

Good job EPA, you're like the fkn California of the universe. You'll force another massive company to partially relocate overseas, where business is more favorable. Another hit to our economy......

How does relocating overseas prevent them from being fined for breaking EPA rules?

I never said they'll escape the fine.

What do companies do when the epa becomes too stringent, or taxes, unions become unbearable? They relocate some of the manufacturing to better places. Have you seen some of the cummins goodies only avaliable overseas?

Wonder why Cat pulled out of the on road market?

Several reasons:

1) they had a small part of the market. Then Daimler (Freightliner and now Western Star) bought Detroit, giving them a proprietary engine. Next, Paccar (Kenworth and Peterbilt) merged with DAF, which gave then the MX-13 as a proprietary engine. Volvo/Mack had their proprietary MP ENGINE. International had / has their own engine (now merged with Volkswagen/Scania). That left Cat to fight with Cummins over the leftovers.

2) they had a LOT of difficulty meeting the regulations, and their ACERT line was an unmitigated disastrous first attempt at EGR, barely better than International’s MaxForce debacle.

3) the on road portion of Cat’s business was a minuscule part of their overall portfolio, and they needed their engineering focus on the big money makers so they would not get caught with their pants down (again) when the off road regs caught up with the on road regs. It gave them a number of years to get the engineering right, and they mostly did.

Was being sarcastic, Dutch.


I find the situation interesting.


For so long one could buy any truck with (almost) any engine.
Truck makers made trucks, left engines to engine guys.
And I always though it made so much sense, economy of scale, focus
on the business you know....simplicity.

Most everything on a truck was off the shelf,
except for Mack. When they were Mack.

Now, as engines become ever more complicated and EPA upsets the cart every
few years, everyone want to be in the engine game.



I'm out of the loop anymore, is the Maxxforce the International engine you reference?
The oil company had one in a delivery truck (single axle, 3kgal tank) it was
a POS! Lived in the International Hospital. I drove it over one day, ran like a
scalded dog, then was just a dog,then it would run great. Numerous cycles over
45 miles. Pretty sad when you see nice trucks discounted by ten$ of thou$and$
because of the engine.

Yup, the Maxxforce was, in a nutshell, an untested concept mounted to an engine and pushed out the door. In an attempt to stay away from a DOC and DEF, they just increased the EGR rate. Well over 50%, and that just gummed up the works, carbon deposits EVERYWHERE. When properly deleted, the engine does really well. Finding someone who does a proper delete is almost as big a problem as not deleting, unfortunately.

I have a 2019 Ram 3500 and a 2022 Ram 2500 both with the 6.7 Cummins. I checked the recalls on both and it appears that my 2019 has already had the software update due to this. I hope it applies to this as I have been reading because I haven't noticed any difference in performance or fuel mileage so far.

The MAXXFORCE damn near bankrupted International truck. Like Dutch said, it was a POS that was pushed out the door too quickly, and it never worked right, plus the EPA came down on them and said it wasn't compliant. lol.
International had to go crawling back to Cummins and ask "pretty please, can we put your engines in our trucks again?"
PACCAR's MX engines have been a steaming pile of dung also.
Same with Cummins for a long while, but they're finally getting caught up. All the add ons that were mandated to meet emissions standards really fugged up the engines and they had to play chase their tails.
Cat was the smartest of the bunch and threw up their hands and told the on highway guys to go pound sand.
I don't know enough about the Detroits or Mercedes engines to comment, but customers have sure been migrating their way, so maybe that says something.

Whose going to be fined next Ford, GM,…… Seems like diesel engines are having a slow death.

The biggest problems in the diesel world in the last 15 years have been the emissions requirements. I rebuilt a 60 series Detroit TWICE just so I could stay away from the trial and error experiment that was emissions from 2007 through 2018. Both Cummins and the MX13 used the Holset aftertreatment system, and they were equally disastrous. After 2018, the updated system has proven quite reliable. I've got a couple of MX engines, and they have been rock solid. Cummins had HUGE issues with their 2350 ISX's and fuel pumps disintegrating and turning the whole block into boat anchors.

Detroit has been the most reliable of the bunch, but their "one box" design basically means you have a $15,000 replacement at about 500-600K, although there are now after market options showing up.

The Euro's have gone a slightly different direction; away from EGR and towards very high use of DEF (up to 7% of diesel consumption). This seems to have the expected result of much less carbon buildup and better reliability (at the cost of increased DEF expense).

Dutch, im happy to hear you're having good luck with the MXs.