Lots of reasons for and against diesel ownership as far as the economics of it are concerned. I read of the higher cost of diesel, the higher cost of maintenance etc and they are valid points. I suspect though, that many people who espouse gas over diesel haven't had much seat time towing with a diesel vs gas truck. For me, the added (though debatable) cost of a diesel is well worth the price of admission based on my own experience. My Cummins tows 2-3 times a month, total of about 1k miles a month with a trailer behind it, and compared with the gas trucks I used to own, is cheaper to operate overall due to greater efficiency while towing. More importantly though, is the ease with which it tows. If I'm running over 55mph, it stays in overdrive with up to 8000 lbs behind it, no gearing down on the hills, no lack of torque and is very stable. I've covered many miles pulling less weight with half-ton gas engined trucks using more fuel and always felt as though I'm punishing the tow vehicle. Not so with the diesel. That alone makes it worthwhile for me........

There is a higher cost associated with diesel and more maintenance but if you tow a lot of heavy things then it is worth it. I loved my Silverado 1500, but it screamed just to keep a decent speed while pulling my tractor. I live in a mountainous area with a lot of grades and my Silverado was staying at 4,000 rpms to just trying to stay between 35-40 mph going a section of mountain near my house while towing my NH TC 40. If i let off of the accelerator the truck would upshift and then loose speed and then downshift again at 4,000 rpm. I used the truck to pull a 6,500 pound camper down I-81 and it would be running at 4,000+ just to maintain 50mph. I sold the truck before I caused it's early death. My neighbor has it and loves it.

I bought an 07 Dodge CTD with the 5.9 and there is a huge difference. Both the Dodge and my Silverado has 3.73 rear ends and the HP difference is not that great (285-295 vs 325) but the torque difference is huge. The Silverado had to work at high RPM to stay in the upper torque curve while the CTD has the torque curve between 1500-2000 RPM. My diesel going up the same mountain with my tractor just humms away and will gain speed if needed. I can cruise at 65mph on the interstate with the camper and the truck never seems to notice the camper behind it.

My dad used my Dodge to tow his camper and he sold his Chevy 2500 for a LBZ 07 Duramax. I'm not advocating any brands but if you tow heavy loads or tow great distances then a diesel can't be beat.

It's all about intended use. I love diesels, but won't own one right now. My pickup gets me to work and back 12 months a year, tows a 16' aluminum boat 4 month a year, carries a couple of deer or antelope once or twice a year, maybe a little lumber here or there, but if it's too heavy, I'll just get it delivered for ~$40. I can't justify having one. There are more pickup owners that fit my use profile than fit yours. With the new EPA regs, the diesel option is looking worse still.

Do what I did- own one of each!

After driving diesel p/u's since 1993 and also several tractors, heavy equipment etc..

I'm still baffled by all this talk of "extra maintenance".

Yes, diesels take more oil, but they can go longer between oil changes than a gasser. Oh sure, the dealers would love for you to come change your oil every 3-5k miles, but its not needed, and a waste of oil.

Air filter change interval is no more than any other motor.

Diesels have no sparkplugs to change or igintion associated electronics.

Yes, the fuel filters need changed more often, I'll give everyone that. But thats about all I can think of.

I'm sure someone will say injectors, but if you keep your filter changed injectors should not go out. (this does not apply to 6.0L powerstrokes, which you could not give me for free)

After putting about 500,000 miles on three diesel p/u's I've had a grand total of 0 injectors go out.

The reason those of who use our trucks for work choose diesels is partially because of LESS maintenance.

Now I agree with everyone, if you don't pull or haul much its kind of silly to own a heavy duty diesel p/u.

Bill

Should add that at 181k miles on my Cummins, I'm probably less than 50% into its useful lifespan, whereas a gasser pulling similar loads is getting ready for overhaul or replacement. (I over-maintain my vehicles, oil changes every 5k etc. Cummin's 350k projected life cycle between overhauls is based on 15k oil change intervals.)

I'm down to just one gas burner: my '56 Chevy hot rod. I'm considering putting a diesel in it though.

When the Germans owned Chrysler, I thought long and hard about buying a diesel Jeep Grand Cherokee, but decided that it is just cold enough in NE to opt out of the gel factor. Probably a mistake, but I'll look on the used market.

Jeff

There is not more maintenance with a diesel, that's a myth. There is a higher up front cost but if you keep the vehicle long enough the savings will far outweigh the initial cost. My 99 dodge diesel has 360K miles on it and has been the least expensive vehicle I've ever owned.

Pics? Gotta love the old Chevs

I used to pull a twin-engine boat down to Florida every fall and back here every spring. I started out with a big-block 3/4 ton Suburban, then a 99 F-250 4x4 V10, then a F350 4x4 dually V10. I then picked up a deal on a program truck from Ford, an '00 Excursion Limited 4x4 diesel with the 7.3 (I now have an '02 Limited Ultimate). The biggest difference between the gassers and diesels wasn't necessarily the fuel usage but the ability to handle the hilly portion; Tennessee in particular. The gassers just plain couldn't handle pulling that load up the hills without a helluva lot of gear searching, even with 4.10/4.11 rears. The Excursions never came out of overdrive, not even once.
I don't care about horsepower numbers. They mean nothing in the area of power. Torque rules, and it's that arena the diesel wins. If you don't tow, it's hardly worth going the diesel route. If you do, there is no comparison.

It's a work in progress, that I haven't progressed on in several years...one of these days I'll get back on her.

To be pulling a heavy load once or twice a year or pulling a 1000 miles a month is little in way of needing or justifying a diesel truck. One needs to be using that truck a bunch to override the extra expense of even having a diesel. Start with the $7000 dollars additional on the original cost of the diesel truck. Maintanence is more money on a diesel truck and it MUST be done in order to get your expected 400,000 miles from the engine.

Right now the fuel costs are very close to gas costs and that is a plus for diesel owners. However, when that fuel shot up to $4.80 a gallon just North of me and gas was running $2.90 a gallon, there is a heck of a difference in expense running a diesel.

Now must of us realize what it takes to pull heavy loads but I can sure tell anybody that my Ford Superduty with a V-10 gas engine has NOT be shorted on get over any hills. Nor has it had to strain to do so. Perhaps someone with a 1/2 ton or 3/4 ton pickup with the 5.3 or 4.6 Triton engine has had to strain pulling a heavy load but I sure have not had that problem and I live where they hills are plenty and you can bet they are steep too.....The Ozark Mountains in Missouri!

Now I'll admit I am not going to do any pull-offs with any diesel trucks but I don't have any problem pulling 10,000 lbs up any of those hills around me. In case your wondering about that fact, I will invite you all down to Branson, Missouri for the summer shops or perhaps better yet, the FALL FESTIVAL and you can judge those hills for yourself.

Yes, it is true about the extra cost of a diesel over a gas engine, but that doesn't exactly evaporate at trade in time. The real cost of ownership is much closer than many people realize and the difference between the trucks is more than just a motor.

Thats very true, around here you can't hardly give away a used 3/4-1 ton truck with a gas engine, but used diesels rarely stay on the lot very long at all, even when they have high mileage. And a used diesel will bring sometimes up to twice the money what a used gas heavy duty p/u will.

Tonk, something else to consider. I do pull with my truck a good bit, but I also have to log quite a few miles empty. I have owned a gas 3/4 ton before. I get 17-18 mph average with my diesels, with the gas trucks I averaged 11-13 miles per gallon empty. I get 11-13 with my diesel with 10,00-12,000 lbs behind it, not empty, my gas trucks got about 7 mpg loaded.

If a person trades trucks every couple yrs it may not matter, but I generally drive my trucks 6-8 yrs. After 100,000 miles the diesel does pay for itself for people like me.

And $4.80 a gal for diesel???? Even at its highest here I don't think it ever broke $4.00 and gas was only .50 cheaper during that time.

Bill

Whooooa HOSS! I don't knock anyone for getting a diesel if that is what they want ok. I myself like quite and I honestly do NOT haul enough to justify the added expense and care one must give a diesel. I personally do not like the smell of fuel and the wife does not want that smell in the house or on my clothes either, it just does not go away like gas does.

You talk about expense, OK and getting more mileage out of diesel but in the long run, you are spending a bunch of extra money if you don't haul Long and often compared to a gas truck. I can take that $7000 or $8,000 dollars extra money spent up front for that diesel engine and in 3 to 4 years time, at least double it via my investing process. I have done so before and hope to do so again.

I have friends in the car & truck business and I know you can not deal on a new vehicle with trading in a used diesel truck with 100,000 miles on it period. You will take a beating twice!!! Dealers do NOT want your diesel truck with a 100,000 miles on it period. However, they will take your gas truck with a 100,000 on it in a heart beat! Now that is in the state of Missouri, Iowa and Illinois.

Wasn't knocking you liking a gas truck. If you won't use the benefits of the diesel then your not wrong for not getting one.

Things on resale are exactly the opposite here,

a good friend whom I hunt with alot owns two used lots here. He deals only in later model vehicles in very good shape. He will buy high milage diesels all day long if their in good shape, he won't touch a gas truck unless its half ton. Why? He can't sell it.

Used diesels with 100,000 miles here still bring about $12,000-$15,000. The equivaleent gas truck would bring about $8,000.

Bill

Absolute BS here in northern Illinois. 7.3PS or Cummins-equipped trucks have excellent resale, whether at a dealer or private sale. I know plenty of dealers, go to the auctions often with a few of them, and a v10 or v8 equipped truck with high miles winds up at the auctions every time.

Drive what you want. If you don't pull enough to justify owning a diesel, can't stomach the price of the engine, or don't like the smell, fine. To each his own. To say that they're worthless in the dealer network in comparison to a gas engine truck is just plain azz-backwards. YMMV.

In a 4x4, I much prefer a diesel for off road work as they generally have more power available at lower revs. Also, on steep down hill sections you get far better engine braking from a diesel due to the high compression of the engine..

The major down side with modern diesel engines though is just how complicated they have got. These days, they can have just as much critical electrics/electronics as a petrol engine.

What I was thinking and also knew. But I'm not from Illinois so I let it go.

It's been a few years since it happened to me, but I've been told here that diesel trucks with over 100k miles are hard for dealers to sell, and as a result they don't bring much at trade-in. Also, here at least some banks won't lend money on a diesel or gas truck that has over 100k miles on it.
When you buy one here is when a dealer raves about how high the resale is going to be on it, not when you go to actually trade it in. Go frigger.

I think you were told wrong about the being hard to sell. Any truck with over 100K is going to be harder to sell, but not because its diesel. If anything the opposite is true.

Diesel motor w/ 100,000 miles = just broke-in good. Gas motor w/ 100,000 miles = about to be broke down. I'm exaggerating of course, but you get my point.

Bill

Based on what you have said, if you add the initial cost for the diesel engine, to a gas engine truck, the prices would be approximately the same. $8000 + $7000 = $15,000. The extra cost for oil changes due to increased oil capacity, fuel filters, fuel additives, etc. are not added in.

+3. Right now there are so many good deals on 3/4 and 1 ton used diesel pickup trucks, the new price differential between diesel and gas of $7,000 - $8,000 that everyone spouts off is meaningless.

I get your point and couldn't agree with you more. I'm just telling what I was told when it came time to get a new truck. Remember, I was telling what a car salesman had said...

I can assure you seemingly wealthly people that $8000 or even $7000 dollars is meaningless. Not when I can invest that initial money and and double or triple it in 5 years time!

No Tonk its not meaningless, now your just being silly. I invest quite a bit too.

I consider the engine in my truck an INVESTMENT, like I said I don't trade trucks every 2-3 yrs, I need the motor in my truck to still be going strong well after 100,000 miles, more like 200,000. With a diesel I can and have done that confidently, I wouldn't trust a hard worked gas enegine past 130,000-150,000 miles.

So basically I get about 3 more years of useful service out of my diesel motor at 25,000-28,000 miles a yr which is what I average.

Sometimes wise investing is not worrying so much about the up front cost and more about the savings/return on the back end, but being the expert investor you are I'm sure you knew that.

BTW since I drive my trucks 6-8 yrs and pay them off in 3 yrs I invest the money those last 5 yrs of not making payments, so there you go bigshot.

Bill

Tonk,

Maybe you can share some of your investments strategies with us. What? .... Tripling your money in five years. I, for one, am all ears. Seriously, let's hear it. Specifically, how you've done the last five years, also.

I never been to the Ozark mountains in Missouri (which I thought were in Arkansas, stupid me, I know), but I got a little mountain chain called the Rockies right at my back door. I wouldn't be without at least one diesel pickup.

R Walter, I don't share such information with my in laws, let alone a complete stranger! Now I don't believe I stated I would turn that money around and triple it in todays market but I can sure has hell tell you I have done so in past years several times.

However, we are in a semi-depression state and to double the money would be a good thing if this market stays this way for the next 2.5 years........don't know, I don't have a magic wond. I also do not throw money away, so to purchase a diesel truck and not haul & pull heavy, running long for a substantial period of time, inorder to justify the cost or to make up the difference in cost compared to a V-10 gas rig is ludicrous.

I can you and others this much, if your not working that diesel truck at least 6 days a week and hauling heavy loads for 10 hours a day during that time slot, your just losing money verses a gas rig....Now that much I do know fella!

I've had gas and diesels and currently have a 2007 5.9 Cummins Dodge. We like the torque to tow. Another factor for us is that we are a far bit out of town and like to keep a couple hundred gallons of fuel on hand. Would much rather store diesel than gas. The diesel can be used in our tractor, cat and generator. Typically use off road diesel for these uses, but having a couple hundred gallons of road diesel provides an extra backup.

Logger

Tonk,

One question, have you ever owned a diesel p/u?

And BTW I said several posts ago I was not knocking your gas rig, if you don't do enough towing then your right for not owning one.

Its seems its you who just can't let it go, and just have to knock diesel p/u owners. Did someone with a diesel p/u wrong you in some way at one time?

Bill

To answer your question of someone wronging me, who owned a diesel pickup truck.......NO! YOU sound like your trying to play the part of the resident Psychiatrist!!!

Now as far as letting it go, I have no axe to grind with any diesel pickup truck owners to date. I am a little annoyed at some, who actually believe, driving a diesel pickup truck is heaven in disguise. Also those who wish to preach how much they are saving over owning a gas rig and these people never hardly pull or haul a blessed thing but a washing machine home from Sears. Now do I own a diesel pickup? Oh yes we certainly do, in the form of a Ford 3/4 ton 1997 model with 285,000 miles on the truck. Also own a 1986 Ford 3/4 ton gas engine with 77,000 original miles on the truck.

Now my V-10 gets 9mpg pulling 10,000 to 12,000 pounds and todays high dollar diesel rigs get right around the 12mpg. Dodge with Cummins and Ford do I know, from having friends who are still bitching about the fuel mileage. So at 3-mpg difference in mileage, the diesel truck owner just might retrieve the cost of that ($8,000) diesel truck in about 20 years or so of driving. So tell me how much more money you are saving, when the fuel usually runs .25 to .50 cents more a gallon than an owner with a V-10 gas engine?

You seem to me like you have an axe to grind, also. Especially when you keep repeating the $8,000 spread even though it has been pointed out several times that amount doesn't evaporate as you suggest.

As far as doubling or tripling your money in 5 years like you also suggest due to your investment abilities. Do you know the rule of 72 as far as it relates to investments? Basically, it means that you must average 14.4% per year to double your money every 5 years. I saw you back off that comment a bit when referring to the current economy, but your overall comments and tone comes across like Bill is suggesting.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. How much to rebuild your V10 at 200k miles when my Cummins ain't breathing hard yet?

I wish everyone the best with their choice for a pickup. Every advantage is arguably a disadvantage, no use getting too worked up about it.

I chose a diesel because I wanted something heavy duty that would last. I can't justify it with the limited use I give it, but I like it. Always liked Cummins engines, got a truck with one. The truck itself hasn't seen the dealer since it left it four years ago. I look forward to tweaking it to get some real performance out of it.

Maintenance costs have not been a problem. Yes, the carbon footprint is substantial, but not likely to break you. An oil change will cost you about $50 more than a gasser if you include the fuel filter and use dino oil, $80/$90 more than a gasser using Mobil 1. That's doing it yourself, a shop will of course charge more. That's the only maintenance I have done in four years, so I guess I have spent about $100 more a year on maintenance. Except for the spike in diesel prices in 2008 fuel costs pretty much balance out when considering the extra mpgs.

I keep up with the Kelly Blue Book value of my truck. The value has actually gone up since the 2008 fuel spike, and has been holding pretty steady. I did a quick comparison to the values for the truck if it had a hemi. The difference in the KBB trade in value is $5175 in favor of the diesel, private party value difference is $6900. That's not too far from the actual discounted cost of the diesel option on my truck. Yes, you may or may not be able to get KBB value for your vehicle, but it is one of the better measures out there.

Every study on the economics of gas vs. diesel favors gas. Also, newer diesel trucks are less likely to be as maintenance free and will not work as well in light duty situations. Lots of good points have been brought up in this thread.

Tonk,

For being the investment expert you are, you should be able to do math.

Heres some REAL actual numbers for you, though I doubt you want to hear them,

100,000 miles of driving divided by 9 mpg= 11,111 gallons of gas. Figure that gas at $2.60 per gallon you get $28,888.88.

100,000 miles of driving divided by 12 mpg= 8,333 gallons of diesel. Figure the diesel at $2.85 per gallon (i'm actually giving you a nickel, the difference here is about 18-20 cents per gal) you get $23,749.99

Thats $5,138.89 in savings on fuel by driving the diesel, and thats ONLY over the first 100,000 miles which for me and most around here takes 4 yrs or less to get 100,000 miles.

Double that for another 100,000 miles and you get $10,277.78.

20 yrs huh? Maybe if you only drive 8,000-10,000 miles a year.

Not to mention at 200,000 miles the gas engine will be on its last leg (if it hasn't died already) and the diesel will still be chugging along.


Bill

Where to start???

Back in Spring and Summer 2008, before the drastic drop in oil prices began in late July , I made six cross country trips. The highest I saw diesel was $4.79 in Springfield, MA. Gas was right at $4.29. This is a 12% differential, not the 66% differential claimed by Tonk ($4.80 vs $2.90). I never observed a difference larger than that $0.50 when other factors were equalized like comparing gas station to gas station and the the highest and lowest priced places in a certain area.

So, even at this time I would get at least 33% better mileage towing (12mpg-diesel versus 9 mpg for a gasser) for a 12% differential in price. Actually for my diesel Cummins truck towing loaded I get 14mpg which is a 56% differential in MPG over a gasser.

Now in the Albuquerque area (I'm 100 miles north of Albuquerque, NM) diesel is $2.74. Best gas prices I have seen are $2.59. This is a 6% differential. Since 2008 gas prices (in my area) have hovered at around $0.05 - $0.15 less than diesel, although for several months I actually observed diesel to be lower than gas. This was early last summer 2009.

Tx270, thank you for putting pencil to paper and doing the math. [Apparently so many of our investment whizzes failed to do this which is evident in the current economic recession.] You illustrate quite conclusively that the initial cost of a NEW diesel pickup will be amortized somewhere within its early lifecycle, say before it's reached 50% in its lifecycle or right around the time a gasser is on its last legs.

NEW, nice concept, but I seldom buy vehicles NEW. I prefer to let someone else pay for that first year depreciation. And, in the last several years, I have noticed many fairly new diesel pickups selling for little more than comparable gassers. This is a recent phenomena brought on by the 2008 oil price hikes. Therefore, that oft-quoted price difference (in his thread) between diesel and gas when puchasing NEW, just doesn't apply to me and I suspect many others recently.

As to the statement that one must run a diesel 10 hours a day, 6 days a week hauling heavy to just break even, think you can actually do the math on that one and prove it????

Personally, I don't go around bragging about money I make on initial investments in the $7,000 threshhold. Even if I double or triple my money. Seems kind of chump-change to me.

I posted on here back in early 2009 that the dealership where I purchased my truck tried to purchase my truck back. I paid bottom dollar for a year old 2007 Dodge 2500 5.9 CTD. My credit union even called the dealer to make certain that my truck was a diesel. They told me that I got the truck 10k under blue book. This was at the the time when diesel was the highest. The dealers couldn't hardly give away heavy duty trucks during this time.

One year later, you couldn't find a diesel other than a 6.0 Ford on a lot in VA. My father spent four months looking. Shelor in Christiansburg, VA purchased two 2005 2500 Silverado Duramax diesels from a contractor and each truck had just over 100k miles. Both trucks were in rough shape but both sold for in one day. I would definitely say that the value of used diesel pickups has increased in the past year.

I'm driving an old 1994 Dodge regular cab long box 4x4 with the 12 valve diesel engine in it right now. I sold my 2007 Tundra and just started driving the dodge more.

The Tundra got 15mpg on the hwy, my dodge gets over 20mpg every tank, sometimes as high as 24mpg and this is all hand calculated. I'm saving quite a bit just on fuel costs.

Take into account that my Dodge is paid for and I am not spending money every month by paying interest on a loan and it makes my Dodge that much nicer . I'm weird, I actually pay myself my monthly budgeted allowance that I set years ago and put that into a retirement account. I'd say that, for me, a diesel is well worth the money.

The maintenance cost is obviously a little higher on a diesel but I do all of the preventative maintenance myself and run Amsoil from front to back.

So the difference between my Tundra and my Dodge boils down to this, the Tundra was faster and more comfortable to sit in. Thats it! The Dodge pulls more, is more economical, is all mechanical which is a big deal for me and it has not ever left me stranded! My Tundra left me walking a couple times. Its crazy, it you would have told me before I bought my Tundra that in 3 years I would have more confidence in my old beater than I did my Tundra I would have laughed in your face.

I bought my gasser in '08. At that point I had been in Asia for 5 years and had my heart set on a 3/4 diesel. I pull a camper trailer, but most of the time the truck is merely transportation. The price of all trucks were down at that time, but what I found is that the diesel price premium remained. I didn't mind that. I then worked the numbers on the trucks for fuel savings. Diesel was about $1.20 a gallon more than gas at that time. I didn't figure that kind of difference would last, but even prior to that price spike diesel was higher than gas. The determination I made on the numbers was that I wouldn't make up the price difference of the truck in a reasonable amount of time. If I were a higher mileage driver, I think the outcome might have been different. If I towed more, I'm sure the outcome would have been different. As it turns out even after the price of fuel has come down I made the right decision. I'm light on the gas pedal of my gasser. I get 14-15 in town and 17-18 on the highway. When I tow my trailer, I get 9-9.5. I'm hoping in another 10 years or so I will be towing more and I will own a diesel. But right now, the gasser is the right truck for me.

Expat

Expat,

Certainly nothing wrong with that. You make valid statements for owning a gasser and from what you said a gas rig is certainly most appropriate for you at this time.

I'm still shocked by the price difference some of you saw back when fuel prices spiked. $1.20 a gal difference? It was never but .60 to .75 cents difference here even at the biggest split.

Today I checked the difference at the station I use alot, .17 cents difference.

Bill

Tx270, now for 3 days last week, diesel was cheaper than gasoline and I haven't seen that in years. You also left out the factor of maintanace on the diesel verses gas rig but I will let that slide.

Now when I was up in Northern Illinois last winter the diesel was as I quoted and that is a Fact, there was a big spread and the gas was much higher than in my own backyard for sure.

Now as far as my investments go and knowing what this or that might happen to be, for all you Econ-1 majors out there. I have made a lot more than any 14.5% in the last 20 years on the stock market and my investsments more than double that figure in many cases.

Now as far as my V-10 with 40,000 miles on it goes, I won't be overhauling that truck's engine anytime soon. I will however trade that truck in before it hits the 80,000 mile mark on the odometer.

I don't have an axe to grind, regardless of what some of you may think. Now at this point and time, I don't really give a Tinker's Damn what you think either.

Now my old Ford with the 7.3 diesel, which is going to be getting a new paint job come early summer, is NOT a joy to be in no matter what anyone else thinks.....it Hammer's Hard and LOUD! It has long been paid for and on it's 3 tranny!!! It rides very rough too, since we put 1-ton springs and rearend under it a few years back, it also runs 4.10 gears . To those that think this is cool, well what until half your hearing is gone and then take a good look in the mirror and remember I told you so. Now I am done with this topic so any rebuttle's will just be a waste of your time gents.

I don't know why but that sounds like the "I'm rubber and your glue" thing kids say in kindergarten

Who cares who drives what? If it works for you, great! Gas engine or diesel engine, if you change the fluids and do routine and preventative maintenance you should be fine

Drum

Oh yeah, my stockbroker can beat up your stockbroker and my ROI is bigger than yours so nanny nanny boo boo

Sorry, but this is simply not credible.

Tonk,

I thought more about your investment returns over the last 20 years and I figured out your math. You must be referring to your cumulative returns and not annual. That is the only way you would be able to do that unless you have some sore ribs right about now.

Busted returns and ribs

Very little he's said has been.......

Go out into the woods and find a cedar tree about 8" in diameter. Cut it down and cut a log from it about 8' long. Take the log home and bury one end in the ground about 3' deep. You now have a fencepost. Talking to the fencepost will produce results similar to talking to many people you meet. You get to decide when you would be better off talking to a fence post.

Long Bob I personally don't give a Tinker's DAMN what you think you figured out about my finances Pal. Now you go ride your horse off into the sunset.......Now that was polite!

Now when you start speaking about me personally, I draw the line Bud. I don't care what you or anybody else drives in a pickup truck.......I stated true facts but somebody wants to turn this into a pissing session plan and simple.

Yeah it's only money, now lets hear how you did the last 20 years with your holdings. Where the hell in Texas do you live? I may want to come visit you and take some lessons on making money perhaps and truck care too.

Goodday to you laddy!

Huh????

Do you know R. Allen Stanford by chance?

True. But he says it with such authority........

My 'rebuttle' hurts just reading those posts....

I live in Denton, TX. Do you need directions? I could quote you my Alpha over the last 3, 5, and 10 year measurements, but I don't think it would make any impact on your view. I am a professional money manager and you would have picked up on a bit of that if you checked my profile and understood what the acronyms meant.

You turned this into a pissing match a long time ago. You also made MANY statements that have been shown to be inaccurate or outright unbelievable. You can BS the fans, but don't come on here and try to BS the players. You will get called on it and you did.

Long Bob I don't really give a Hoot in Hell weather you are a money manager or clean stalls out understand. I have got a couple of very good money managers working for me and have had over the last 4 decades.

Now as far as a pissing match goes, you can go Piss up a rope!
I know what my money has done in the last 20 years and so does the IRS. Now just so you know, that I know, there is NO WAY IN HELL you can figure out what I made with out having the figures in front of you.

Perhaps you are a Magician too! Maybe you walk around the with a magic wond in your hand or a crystal ball as well. Anytime you want to furnish your phone number, I'll spend the dime and finish what you started. I suppose you work for a mutal fund company (does it have a name?) or perhaps some wealthy privateer type, who runs his own firm, you can tell us. Since you think you know so much about my making money or my finances etc. Like I said, you just run that phone number by me and I'll call you and let you in on the secret Magic Man.

Tonk,

Do you read your own posts? First you say that you are the one that is coming up with these unbelievable returns, now you are claiming that you delegate that to a "couple of very good money managers." So, which one is it? Are you doing it or are they doing it?

The last two money managers that made those claims are in jail. Heck, even Madoff and Stanford didn't claim they were that good. FWIW, you are removing all doubt in anyone's mind that you are making this stuff up.

Looooooong Bobby! Like I said Jack, how about your phone number and lets here about your reports yada yada yada.

I'll spend the dime you betcha!

Tonk,

You don't need me. You got it all figured out. You have said so many times.

Myself and a few others just said we don't believe you. I know I can live with it, but it appears you are having trouble dealing with it.

Great.....a thread about gas/diesel pickup trucks and someone manages to turn it into a big dick contest over money investing.

Cowboy you just send that phone number and I'll let you in ona all the pro's & con's! Now what fund is that you manage or company you work for??? Looong Bobby your so correct, I never needed your arse period to make money.

[/quote]

Great.....a thread about gas/diesel pickup trucks and someone manages to turn it into a big dick contest over money investing. [/quote]

True, but faced with facts and numbers he was losing the truck arguement miserably, even if he doesn't realize it.

Wow.... giving new meaning every post to the term "Honky-Tonk"

You don't need my number because I didn't make any outlandish claims of returns like you did. Why don't you post the contact information of these incredible money managers that can double or triple your money every five years. I am sure they would appreciate the referrals.

R. Walter......NO that name is reserved for a dog I got out in my kennel. The real Honky Tonk was one heck of a dog, if you look up any of those top English Pointers you will find them listed. Now Mr.Miller runs a real fine kennel in Missouri. I also have half interest in a "Honky Tonk Attitude" dog as well. However, my main stay is German Shorthair Pointers and I got some of the very best!!!

Come on now Looong Bobby, you just through that phone number out here and I'll tell you real personal like, just who I do know in the buisness of making money and those I have delt with too.

Please do let me cross your eyes and dot your T for you sir. I loved talking to money managers! Now you got the brass testicules to send that number or you just what to keep playing that same old tune Cowboy or hide in the closet? Yeah, how about you stepping up toe the mark!!! I'll jingle a little silver & gold in your ears so you can hear real good.

You say you "loved" talking to your money managers, do you use the past tense because you can't talk to ole Bernie Madoff anymore because of his incarceration? How bout R. Allen Stanford? You guys keeping in touch? These guys had smaller returns than you did

Here's an interesting article from last year
http://money.cnn.com/2009/02/25/news/madoff_stanford_playbook.fortune/index.htm

Drum

This is much better than a private phone call with you. The public discussion removes any doubt how foolish you are being.

You ignore that the onus is on you since you are the one that made the outlandish claims. You won't even name these money managers much less provide their contact information.

I can tell you that they don't exist and that is why you won't name them. Any money manager (and you claim at least two) that could double or triple your investment every 5 years for the last 20 would rule the world. We would already know their names because these results would be posted for all to see or they would be in prison. There is no in between.

You might find another subject to interject your view upon. This truck and investment thingy isn't playing out the way you intended.

Now you don't say! You want to come and count my marbles Bobby Boy!!! Sorry Cowboy Bobby, no more time for your arse savvy, your pushing a merry-go-round and nobody is on it Cowboy.

I think the craziest part of this thread is the fact that you prefer a V10 over a diesel

I think the real difference between gas and diesel is, diesel fumes make you cough, gas vapors rot your brain

That's interesting! I remember years ago a friend was telling me how following a diesel truck made him sick, to the point that he's have to pull off the hwy and wait for the air to clear (this is back in the 70's).
Then once I read in the newspaper (so it must be true) that diesel exhaust fumes actually contain more harmful stuff than gas exhaust fumes.
I always figured it may be killing me quicker than gas exhaust fumes, but I like the smell of diesel exhaust.
I think my liking diesel fumes may come from the fact that I was running a D6 Cat before I was old enough to drive a car. There's nothing better at that age than clearing land and pushing dirt with a Cat that big. I still love to watch dozers work.
Speaking of fumes, I shake my head when someone says they can't have a diesel pickup because their wife won't let them, because she doesn't like the smell of diesel. I just tell guys to not splash fuel all over themselves when they fuel up...that's the only time I ever smell any fuel in either a gas or a diesel pickup...and does their gas truck smell like gas all the time? Does she really ever smell any fuel from a pickup is what I have to wonder. I don't notice any diesel smell from my diesel truck, and my wife doesn't either.
If I had to smell fuel all the time, I'd fix the leak.

Thanks for pissing all over this thread BTW.......

more horsepower and double the ft/lbs. of torque.

To the first two posts, this is precisely why I'm looking for a used F250 with the 7.3 PSD. Wife and I bought her aunt and uncle's 10 year old camper when they upgraded last year. I've pulled it three times since christmas and after staying in 3rd gear the whole time and getting 6-7 mpg in the 5.4 F150, I'm ready for a diesel. Even if I don't pull the trailer that much I think it will be worth it.
Another reason is we both like to take trips out west and in trying to plan a trip this year, having the gasser has made me hesitate on how far I want to go. I dread heading to AZ or UT pullilng it with the half ton going 50-60 mph and getting 6 mpg, and really haven't even considered it. If I can find the right F250 with the 7.3 I'm looking for, there won't be any question whether we'll go or not.

Here's the reason you get a diesel:

Last week I bought an old cultipacker off of ebay. I got a good deal, the only problem is that it was in Ohio and I'm in Mississippi. I have a couple of weeks off from my job so I had plenty of time to go and get it. Four days ago I threw some straps and a chain in the back of my truck and set out for ohio, mapquest says it was 710 miles one way. My truck is a 99 (actually a 98.5) dodge 2500 diesel, 2WD regular cab with 5 speed manual transmission. Since I wasn't on a time schedule I decided to take it nice and slow and just ease my way up to Ohio setting my cruise control at 58 MPH. I filled up before I left and filled up again in Kentucky, that tank got me 25.1 mpg. In kentucky it got cool so I turned off the A/C. I filled up again at the same station coming back through Kentucky (cheap diesel) after getting the cultipacker, that tank was 26.0 mpg. I filled up again when I got to my hometown and that tank was 25.5 mpg. On the way back I had a 1500# cultipacker in the bed but that didn't seem to make any difference in the fuel mileage. Over the course of the 1400 mile trip I averaged 25.5 MPG, pretty good for a 3/4 ton truck I'd say especially since every tank was the dreaded ULSD diesel that so many think kills your fuel mileage. Oh yeah, this truck had 362,700 miles on it when I pulled back into my driveway.

I usually don't get that mileage because I rarely (never) drive 58 MPH, I'm usually doing 70-75 and over the course of the life of the truck I've averaged around 20 MPG. Still, when you do the math that's a heck of a lot of fuel savings over the life of the truck. 362,000 miles divided by 20 MPG means that there's been roughly 18,100 gallons of diesel burned in it. Assume an average of $2.00 a gallon (low I know, but round number) and I've ran $36,200 worth of fuel through it. That's considerably more than the $23,500 I paid for the truck new in 1998. Now contrast that with a gasser that would average, at best, 15 MPG and I would have burned 24,133 gallons of fuel over the same mileage. Using the same $2.00 a gallon average I would have spent $48,266 on fuel over the same mileage with the gasser. That extra 5 MPG over the course of it's lifespan has saved $12,066 in fuel ($48,266-$36,200) over a gas burner, which is optimistic in favor of the gasser because a 3/4 ton gasser isn't going to average 15 mpg. Just the fuel savings along have saved more than double the price of the diesel engine option when I bought the truck. If I use more realistic numbers for the price of fuel and the actual fuel economy a gas 3/4 ton gets then the difference gets even more dramatic in favor of the diesel. Those expensive oil changes? $30 for the Rotella T 15W-40 at wally world, $9 for the fleetguard oil filter at the cummins place. It's gotten changed every 7500 miles, no more, no less. Fuel filters, $14 at the cummins place, every 15,000 miles.

Then there's the matter of longevity. How many of us would set out on a 1400 mile road trip in a gas truck with 362,000 miles on it? I know I wouldn't. Heck, I've never even SEEN a gas engined truck that had 362,000 miles on it without having an engine rebuild or new engine. A remanufactured gas engine for a pickup runs about $5000 installed, I know because my cousin just had one replaced in his son's 180,000 mile 2001 chevy half ton. That's about the price of my diesel engine option new on my truck.

The point being that those who claim that a diesel costs more to operate than a gasser are just plain wrong. The numbers don't lie and if you stick the pen to paper it's very plain, a diesel is A LOT less expensive over the long haul if you actually use your truck as a truck and keep it through it's lifespan. There's a reason all OTR trucks are diesels, it's called economics.