Considering buying a new full size 4wd truck this spring or early summer. I currently drive a 1999 4wd extended cab Tacoma. I use it for hunting trips and towing a 5 x 10 utility trailer and 4 wheeler. I don't really need a full size truck but my wife and I would like some extra room when traveling with our teenage son. The added size and towing power would be a benefit but not a requirement.

Right now I like the Tundra Double Cab, F150 Super Cab and the Sierra/Silverado Ext Cab. I am also considering the Tacoma Double Cab as it will do everything I need a truck to do. However, IMO the full size trucks offer more room, more capabilities, and seem to get pretty close to the same gas mileage.

I'm looking for some real world experiences(good or bad) and observations/opinions with any of these trucks. In the Tundra I am considering the 4.6 liter, the F150 would be the 5.0 liter, and the GM's would be the 5.3 liter.

I bought a 2011 4x4 extended cab F150 a few months ago. It has the basic 3.7 liter V6 but really performs more like a V8. This is both my first pickup and Ford vehicle. Toyota makes some really good products too, I sold my Corolla with 142k miles on it shortly after buying the truck. I too considered a Tacoma, it should make a brilliant off-road truck with the TRD Off-Road package. Those are pretty popular here in Wyoming.

So far the most I've hauled in the F150 is a deer but of course it can do a lot more. I would probably take the Ecoboost 3.5 liter V6 over the 5.0 V8, more torque and better MPG according to Ford. JMO.

What kind of mileage are you getting from your 3.7? I'm really intrigued by the EcoBoost but a trusted Ford mechanic thinks the 5.0 is a more durable and proven design.

2007 silverado 4x4 CC, 3.73 gears and 4.8L motor/ 16-18 mpg in town 19-22 mpg intersate/freeway. Plenty of tow power & room.
I do not know what the 5.3 gets MPG wise.
I was going to buy the Tundra, smaller, more expensive, worse MPG overall. Same with the Ford 5.7L ...worse mpg & 15K more.
The silverado road nicer than the other 2 IMO & costwise a lot less. Not a single problem in the 5 yrs I have owned it.

I get 20-21 on the highway and maybe 13-15 in town. I live in a small town, very stop-go with mostly 20-30 mph speed limits.

This was about all I wanted to spend, only an XL with the power group and XL plus package but still hit over 30k. If I could afford it I would have gone with the EcoBoost. IIRC it puts out a tremendous 420 ft-lbs. of torque at only 2500 rpm. The normally aspirated V6 and V8s are certainly more proven but Ford did a lot of testing and evaluation for the twin-turbo EcoBoost engine before releasing to the public. The 3.7 is still a pretty good engine though, I think it has a lot of oomph for its size.

My 08 Tundra has had one proble; the stereo. It messed up right after I bought it and Toyota replaced it. The truck has since given me 50k trouble free miles and is absolutely the best driving pick up I've ever driven.

Expat

Tundra

I have a 2011 F-150 w/5.0l V-8. It has tons of power and sounds mean as hell, but it ain't no tundra. I traded a 2006 Tundra for it.

I have 11K miles on it now and have more rattles in it than my Tundra did at 90K miles. It drives me nuts.

FWIW, I get mixed driving MPG of 17.5'ish and highway MPG of 18-19.9 depending on the hwy and my speeds. It tows like crazy. I tow a 5500# boat and you barely know it's there. I like the truck plenty, it's just not as well built as my Tundra was or my Tacoma before that.

My work truck has a 3.7l and it gets crap for mileage. I've not got about 13mpg yet, and it's the same for our other 3 that are just like it. This is however, a lot of city driving.

It has nowhere near the HP or torque as the 5.0 V-8 I have in my personal truck does.

I must say that I have been a true diehard GM Owner for several years. The trucks that dad and I have had, have been mostly Chevy trucks and we had very few problems out if them. I currently own a 2006 Chevy 2500HD 4X4 with the Duramax and Allison Transmission (6 Speed). It has about 45,000 miles on it. I must say that truck is a beast as far as towing and hauling. I bought it for the long haul to tow my campers and farm tractors. I will have it until the wheels fall off. It has got as high as 22.8 MPG on a trip but usually fuel mileage is 18 MPG or less in the mountains.

Yet I still desire to buy another gas powered (non-diesel) truck to run around in and maybe to travel in. Even though I am a diehard GM man I would probably buy a crew cab Toyota Tundra if I was buying. Here is why. I have had 2 full sized Chevy trucks (2003 GMC 1500 and my current 2500HD) and the intermediate steering shaft gave trouble on both of them at a certain mileage. The steering gets a thud in it when you hit ruts or bumps on the road. Chevy may have fixed that on the newer trucks, but that really ticked me off that they did not cure that on the earlier trucks. Also there are issues or were issues (pump rub) with the transfer case on the 4X4 GM trucks. That might have been cured after the 2008 models? Also I have read where the 5.3 Liter GM engine burns alot of oil after so many miles. I know a guy at work that has 2006 Chevy with the 5.3 Liter. It uses a quart or more between oil changes. Chevy place told him that was normal oil usage. Well to me having to worry about adding oil is not for me. I also know a guy that has a Chevy Tahoe with several miles on it and it use�s 2 or 3 quarts of oil in between changes. Just do a search on the net on this subject.

In the past few years I have lost faith in GM just for those reasons. I would buy Toyota Tundra in a heartbeat. I would even consider a Ford believe it or not (can't believe I said that). It all boils down to buying a dependable truck that will give little to no problems. According to the reviews I read the Toyota Tundra fits that to a T.

I am a long time Chevrolet truck owner..Don't know if I remember all of them we have had, but dad and I generally had about the same things while he was with us.. We had two 64's, one 69, one 70,one 71,and one 72 4WD I still have. After these, dad had a Ford until he passed. I then had one 2001, one 2005, and now a 2011. After dad passed, I also have three Toyota Tacoma's, he was a WWII vet and would not have approved.

The early trucks were all good. The 2001 had the aluminum 5.3 and the pistons rattled from day one. The 2005 was an iron block 5.3, had the 4sp auto and 3.73 gears. These were both 4wd models and the 2005 was a club cab. It was probably the best truck I have owned. It had power, everything worked well, and got 19 on the highway. The 2011 truck would probably seem alright if I never owned the 2005. The 2011 is a pretty fancy club cab 4wd with another aluminum 5.3, 6 speed auto, and 3.42 gears. It really drives nice and rides nice, but has several things I don't like as well as the 2005. It has less power, has the motor which goes from 8 to 4 to save gas, was not available with 3.73 gears (without getting the MAX) has a very plastic interior, throws rocks and dirt all over it, and has digital ac/heater controls which make you take your eyes off the road to adjust. In addition, it only gets around 18.5 on the highway with all of the gadgets to make it better. The sticker indicated 21mpg highway. I didn't want a Ford due to height, but wish I would have looked closer at them or bought a 3/4 ton Chev.

I traded a Super Crew F-150 for a 4 door Tacoma 5 years ago. The big Ford was only rated to tow 300 more lbs than my Tacoma, but when pulling the same loads the Toyota does it with more pep. Having a 1500 lb lighter truck with only 10 fewer horsepower makes a big difference.

You would gain a lot more interior space with the full size, but the 4 door Tacoma meets my needs, maybe not others. I always owned full size until this truck, not because needed the towing or weight capacity, but because of interior space. The older Tacoma's were just too small, but the newer versions are really a mid-size.

I'm still skeptical of the full size trucks fuel mileage claims. They brag about highway mileage in trucks with small motors and high gearing. My experiences with those combos has left me underwhelmed. When I traded my 02 Ford for the 07 Toyota the highway mileage was pretty close, about 17-18 vs 20-21. But the fuel mileage where I do 90% of my driving went from 12-13 mpg up to 17-18 mpg. While that may not sound like a lot it works out to about $70 less for gas for each 1,000 miles driven at todays fuel prices. About $100/ month with the miles I drive.

I also considered cost and resale value. I haven't looked at truck prices in 5 years, so the market could be much different now. But 5 years ago, where I live, I could buy the Toyota $8,000 cheaper than any comparble Ford, Chevy, or Dodge 1/2 ton. It was the right decision for me. I'd at least look at the 4 door Tacoma before deciding on a bigger truck.

Being a GM truck, I'd say it's nearly anytime now.

Tundra and don't look back. I saw somewhere recently that Tundras are made with more American parts than any other truck on the road fwiw.

I'll see if I can find the link to that article.

Expect 15 to 17 mpg.

Thanks for all the replies. I plan to drive all of them and maybe even try a Ram, Titan and Frontier while I'm at it. I'm sure the double cab Tacoma would do anything I need and if it has enough room in back, it maybe what I go with.

Got 80,000 miles on a 2008 Tundra now. Running 91 octane and averaging 17 to 18 miles a gallon. Going strong and no issues to date.

Been trying to buy a Tundra all day. Been contacting dealers and asking for their best price over the phone and the internet.Seems they don't want to sell a truck, not going to waste many hrs running to different dealers to get their best prices. Once I get a fair price i'll go in and conduct business, in this economy you would think they would be all over me. Oh well,My beautiful 2001 C3 "Denali" has become expendable as it is all wheel drive not 4WD. That low range has been missing for a while now. It has pulled my horse trailer excepionally well but time to move on.

VA,
The GM products I have been driving for the past several years have given me great service. A 1/2 ton extra cab with a 5.3 will be a great choice. Good fuel economy and I have found them to be very reliable.
Just bought a 2012 2500HD LTZ w/Z71 and a 6 Liter. Put a Leer XL100 on it (8' bed) and love it. Rides great, noise level very low, excellent power, great brakes, and very comfortable. Only one issue with this beast but I knew it going in. 14.2 mpg highway and 11.5 mpg around work and town.
Last one was a 2007. Traded it with 91K on it and the truck held good value on trade. Gasoline, tires, and fluids in 5 years.
FWIW I noticed that true 4 door trucks had quit a bit better trade value over an extra cab but I like 8' beds and a four door w/8' bed is a yacht.

Dave

From reading and speaking to several mechanics, they all say the 5.3 in the GM trucks is a great engine. It will probably boil down to what drives and rides the best.

Does anyone know when the GM trucks are due for an update? The current body style has had a few cosmetic tweaks here and there but seems to be a pretty old design, IMO.

9 outta 10 sales managers aren't going to waste their time giving their best price over the phone. I'm sure the salesman would love to help you, but it's a simple fact that the sales managers just aren't going to take anyone serious over the phone.

Full size GMCs/Chevies were "tweaked" in 2007. Both interiors and exteriors. I liked the old dash design much better, but don't miss the swing out "wing" rear door windows at all (extended cabs).

Only probs I had with my '06 Sierra Z71, were a coupla engine sensors, fan switch and fan motor (noisy). All replaced under warranty. No issues thus far with the '10 Silverado Z71 ext. cab (20,000 miles), other than crappy fuel mileage (18 MPG). Miss the 20 MPG that the '06 GMC got. 5.3L engines suit me fine. The '10 has "coil over" front suspension, which in my opinion, rides/handles better than the previous torsion bar front suspension.

I've got an 03 GMC 5.3L ext cab Z71. 205,000 miles on it. Replaced water pump and both catalytic converters. That is it, since new.

Wife drives an 07 Chevy 5.3L crew cab Z71. 80,000 miles on it. We have put tires on it.

Her's is supposed to have the V4/V8 mode to give better mileage, blah blah blah. Hers gets the same mileage as mine, just right on the nose 16 mpg.

Mine uses absolutely no oil between changes, hers will burn a quart in 3,000 miles. Same as a contractor I use that also has an 07. Same as has been referenced on this forum, and GM just says 'tough'.

For kicks I just did a google search.

Typed in 2007 5.3

Google tries to autopopulate as you type, the third thing it was trying to auto-fill in for me as I typed the 5.3 was 'oil consumption', think it isn't a widespread problem?

From TruckTrend.com -

Silverado 1500: As for Chevrolet's larger trucks, a number of enhancements will help make the Silverado more fuel-efficient and thus more competitive with the Ford F-150. We've heard GM hopes to shave at least 500 pounds per pickup truck by 2016, all while retaining the content and safety features mandated by buyers and NHTSA alike. We wouldn't be surprised if the new trucks use more aluminum, magnesium, and other lithe alloys in order to achieve that metric. New powertrain designs will also help cut fuel use. GM's next-generation V-8, which will feature direct fuel injection, E85 capability, and a reported "advanced combustion design" will likely be one staple. Other reports suggest other six-cylinder engines are under consideration, including a turbocharged variant. As with the Tahoe/Suburban, an eight-speed automatic transmission � perhaps the very one scheduled to be built in Toledo, Ohio � and an evolved version of GM's 2-Mode hybrid are expected to be offered. Don't expect these revisions to happen overnight, as GM executives have previously indicated the company won't rush the line to market. As it stands, expect the next-gen Silverado to debut in late 2013 as a 2014 model.

Silverado 2500/3500: GM extensively reworked what's beneath the skin of its heavy-duty pickups for the 2011 model year, so now it's time for a cosmetic reboot to match. An overhaul is expected to arrive in either model year 2014 or 2015. We're also told a successor to the popular Duramax 6.6-liter turbo-diesel V-8 should arrive around 2015 or so.

Click Here

The Tacoma has alot going for it, especially when it comes to being reliable and cheap to run and maintain. I'll add one more. It's got a true locking rear axle option which comes with their off road package. They work alot better than any of the limited slips that all the others offer. E

I have a 2010 F150 5.4 auto 4wd with 13,000. When I first got it when not all stations were cutting their gas with 10 to 15% ethanol I got 18 on and 17 around town now I get 16.2 around town. It sits in the garage most of the time and I use when I need a truck. With a 60 mile round trip to work I run an escort. Love the truck and the ride.

It's not a truck, but the family wagon '09 Chev Suburban was a lemon from 17k miles when we bought it. Auto door locks, Power windows, and axle seals, all covered under warranty. It was in the shop every 2-3 months that we owned it.

Once out of warranty it started overheating sporadically. That broke the camel's back so to speak.

We traded it off for an older Suburban with the same mileage.

I think we got a vehicle that was built by some bummed out workers during the GM Bailout.

well

9 outta 10 sales managers aren't going to waste their time giving their best price over the phone. I'm sure the salesman would love to help you, but it's a simple fact that the sales managers just aren't going to take anyone serious over the phone. [/quote

Well got a quote from sales manager and he told me his price and I drove out and we did business. No funny stuff, got a fair price for my trade in and the transaction was completed within 2 hrs. truck was detailed durning the process. Will recommend the dealer and this sales manager to any one in want of a Toyota in my area.

I had a 2000 Yukon XL with the 5.3L that gave me no problems in 186K miles. I replaced it with a 2007 model, with a "newer generation" 5.3L: I bought it at 40K, and just clicked over 70K. The SOB uses about 1� quarts of oil in 3000 miles, and the dealer won't do anything about it since GM's spec is 1 quart in 2,000 miles. I've never owned a vehicle that burned anywhere near this much oil.

I was done with GM cars many years ago. I'm done with their trucks now, too.

Were I looking at a pickup, I'd choose between Toyota & Ford. For another Yukon-ish vehicle? I have no idea.

FC

I would not be happy with that much oil consumption either. Wonder what changed between 2000 and 2007 to cause these issues? Seems like a lot of the excessive oil consumption complaints are from the 2006 -2007 year models.

Thanks for the replies!

toyotas suck ,period.

buy american. and don't tell me toyota is american. what a joke.

Went to one Chevy forum that discussed the oil consumption. About a 10 page thread that goes back to 2008 when people first started realizing their 2007's were burning a lot of oil. The general consensus is the engine that switches from V8 to V4 mode is the issue. GM has a big long decision matrix on what to do when a customer comes in with this issue. First they say 1 quart in 2000 miles is their spec, problem with that is they changed it from 1 quart in 3000 miles when the issue first started. Next they'll put a 'deflector' in the engine that keeps oil from splashing on the cylinders that get shut off in V4 mode, something about this oil builds up on cylinder wall and when its reactivated the oil goes out the exhaust valve. When that doesn't work they'll do a couple of things, have heard they'll tell the computer not to go into V4 mode, have heard they'll put new rings and pistons in. Most say that this solves the problem for only a certain amount of miles before it comes back, basically GM doesn't have a solution, they're grasping at straws and trying to act like they're doing something. Nobody said what they do after the rings and pistons, but several said it didn't solve their consumption permanently. Google it, many many many boards discuss the issues with all the same conclusion.

Glad I got an 06! FWIW it's a crew cab short box Z71, and I've used the crap out of it. Hauled a lot more than I should've with a 1/2 ton, but it's done great. I should knock on wood after saying that. On highway with a tailwind I've gotten 22 mpg, but if I keep it to 60-65 I can get 17 running around here. Get too deep into it and I get 15.

A friend of mine had the same issue with oil consumption and lack of fix from the dealership with an 07 suburban, finally gave up and traded it off.

I kinda miss my '06 Sierra Z71. Alum. 5.3L. No oil consumption issues at close to 50K when traded and it got better mileage than the '10 Chevy w/4 cyl. doohickus.

Really miss it when blending into interstate traffic. That thing was a friggin' rocket, compared to the '10.

Something to be said for a 82' k25 Chevy with 350 and a TH400...

Just sayin'

W

GM used to make a good truck....

Very insightful and helpful opinion!



Thanks to everyone who posted actual experiences with the trucks I asked about. Will probably go drive a few trucks in the next few weeks and make a decision from there. Been reading from several different rumor mills that GM, Ford, and Toyota wil be offering engines with direct injection in the near future. May be worth the wait.

Registered democrap union thug? Or just a run-of-the mill dumbass?

Is there a difference?

Good point!

I currently have three Toyota Tacoma's..but I see both sides of the "it's made in America and pays Americans salaries". It is a company still owned by Japanese investors and the profits go there..I think most of the bashers would have a little different opinion if you had spent five years of your life fighting for your life and now sending ANY money their way.. Bash me if you wish..but I can tell you for sure my dad had hard feelings this way and I did not buy anything Japanese while he was alive..Yes, I see both sides of it..

I bought mine as a GM Certified Used Vehicle. Though I brought it in past the 12 month/12,000 mile warranty, they were still fixing stuff under the 5 year, 100,000 mile powertrain warranty.

Since there was a service bulletin in place, they went ahead & put in the deflector for me. Then they claimed that there were leaks at the oil pan, transfer case, and rear seal (!), so they fixed all of those. When I got it back, the car was wandering all over the road, with about 120 degrees of play in the steering wheel, so I had it towed back to them (on their dime). Turns out they forgot to tighten up the steering box when they put it back together... .

And... after all that... there's no difference in my oil consumption. They claim that the next step would be to break open the engine for new pistons & rings, but they won't do that 'til I get to 1 qt. burned per 2K miles. They're really dragging their feet about it, too: I can't even get them to read the damned dipstick the way I see it.

I've got to assume it's not doing my catalytic converters any good to be sending that much oil through the pipe for them to deal with. But it looks like I get to eat this problem. Now I need to figure out if it's better to cut my losses & sell it now before the value plummets, or just ride it into the ground with the possibility of having to replace the engine at my own expense at some point.

I bought this truck specifically BECAUSE of the 5.3L engine - I didn't realize it wasn't the same as the one I'd had before.

FC

So do I. My dad was drafted long before Pearl Harbor, had the "guided tour" of Europe in '44 and '45, was discharged in October of '45, long afer VE Day. He was very testy about Japanese stuff, when it began showing up here in the 50s and 60s (radios, etc).

Ex-Father in law served in the Navy, lost an older brother in the Bataan Death March, understandably was even crankier than my dad, about Jap imports.

Can recall when a bro inlaw bought his wife a new Mitsubishi Gallant some years back. Their WWII vet neighbor pointed out that Mitsubishi had manufactured the Zero and many still-existing Jap industrial giants like Mitsubishi, had profited from slave labor during the war, including GI POWs.

Much of that will eventually disappear, as WWII vets are in scarce supply these days.

Yeah, they now manufacture many foreign vehicles in the USA. In most instances, the profits go back to the parent companies.

I drive GM trucks and have had a coupla Dodge trucks. Lots of foreign parts in 'em today. Some are made in Mexico (none that I have owned). So be it.

Every auto manufacturer has engines with excess oil consumption, even Toyota.

Toyota Oil Consumption

Well look at that, page upon page on Toyota Oil Consumption problems.

Toyota has nothing, I repeat - NOTHING on domestic auto manufacturers and I'm tired of those trying to portray them as something they are not. If you want to send your money overseas and contribute to our balance of payments problems, go ahead.

Next up we'll hear from the "they're made here now" apologists. Make my day.

I bought into your line of thinking for 30 years, never owned a foreign car or truck until 5 years ago. I never realized just how bad US trucks were until buying the Toyota. The difference has been eye opening.

I've always realized how bad the toyota's excuse for trucks were and I will never support a Japanese company by buying one. The toyota advertising hype is just that, hype.

I traded my Tundra for a new Ford F150 in August. This Ford has more rattles and squeaks in it at 10K miles than my Tundra ever did. I traded it with 90K.

I love the power and towing, however in the new one.

2000-2006 Tundras are great trucks. My 2007 Tundra was the worst truck I've ever owned. Too many issues to list but it just didn't stand up the the abuse I give my vehicles.

If your not going to use it too hard then go for the Tundra, it is a great looking truck. It left me stranded TWICE. F the new Tundras! If somebody gave me one I'd sell it and buy something else.

The Tacoma is still the best smaller truck on the market IMO

Everyone has their own opinions on things and trucks are no different. Most, including mine, are worth what you pay for them and are not really a true cross section of anything.

Up until a couple of years ago I had owned exactly two trucks in the previous 34 years. The first one was a 1975 Cevy 3/4 ton 4wd and it was a decent truck although it never saw 10 mpg. It went through 3 transmissions and the body finally rusted through. I did drive it until 1994 when I bought a new Isuzu 4wd regular cab with short box. This was a great truck on both the highway and off road hunting. It was very reliable, economical to drive and cost me practically nothing in repairs for the 15 years I owned it. The problem with it was it wouldn't pull my Wifes 28 foot travel trailer.

I presently happen to have a 2007 Tundra and it is a great truck. It is as well made as any other half ton truck and probably better than some. It handles the travel trailer well and it doesn't break me at the gas pump. It doesn't do as well as my little Isuzu did but for its size it isn't bad. And yes, it is MORE MADE IN AMERICA than any other half ton truck. It was designed and engineered in this country and United States workers got payed to build it. My Dad was also in WORLD WAR II in the South Pacific and he always said he could see the day when "Made in Japan" was going to stand for quality. I doubt that he ever imagined that it would be quite like it is today but he did tell me several times my Isuzu was a better truck than his Ford Ranger. I had to agree with him on that.

Now to be quite honest, I really think it is hard to buy a real bad truck nowdays. I realize there are lemons in any brand but overall they are all pretty good trucks. It boils down to personal preference way more than one brand being really that much better than another. I personally won't buy a GM or Dodge for obvious reasons. That narrows things a good bit and I decided on a used Toyota a couple of years ago. I'm not sorry and think few others would be either if personal preference didn't get in the way. I would probably be happy with a Ford also, but I doubt it would thrill me anymore than my Tundra does.

Once again, thanks to all who have shared their experiences with the trucks I asked about. IMO, any vehicle is subject to have a mechanical issue(s) and Toyota has certainly had their share. After owning several Toyota's and Honda's though, I can honestly say they were better built, had fewer mechanical problems, and had higher resale values than the GM's and Fords I have owned.

Toyota does have 2 major claims to fame... The worlds largest recall and leading the world in recalls..LoL

S

Yep! My 2007 was in the service department a BUNCH! I never had a problem with my first generation Tundra, that was a damn good truck

i used to feel like i would never buy anything from Asia, and then my wifes car started having problems, so we started looking and she drove every thing, we really liked the 4-runner but couldn't swing the price tag she drove a trail blazer, escape, a few other random things but could quite find what she liked then one day she test drove a Nissan xterra and loved it but the chevy she was driving was dead yet. then one day we set out to go to Ft. Collins to have a lunch for her b-day buy the time we got to Markly Motors the car had no forward gear the little chevy had 58,000 miles and munched a trans, an low and behold an xterra sat ten feet from where the car stopped rolling we drove haggaled they gave $1500.00 trade on a car without a transmission and a rattel in the motor and we drove away in an 07 Nissan Xterra. in the 3 short years we have owned this car we have put about 40k on it, it now has 80k miles and we have changed the oil, one set of tires and and a tail lamp, it get about 23 MPG and is honestly the best vehicle I have every owned.

I've had four Nissans, all smaller trucks, and never had any mechanical issues at all. I can't say that about the F-150 I had, or the older C-10 Chevy.

DoeDumper

You might want to re-check your stats.

I am quite sure that Ford leads in total recalls with well over 20 million vehicles recalled, their highest recall year being 1996 with over 7.6 million units. Ford had a recall in 1972 that affected about 4 million vehicles. In 2005 and 2009 Ford also recalled about 4.5 million vehicles in each year. Do the math for just these four years and then tell us who has the claim to fame on recalls.

I don't think Toyota ever recalled more than 5 million vehicles in one year.

Looks like we have a close race! LoL Ford had the crown early on but Toyota has taken it as of late! Doesnt say much for either company. LoL Too funny... Many many millions recalled...

Personally I look at it a different way. In todays lawsuit happy world, they almost have to recall a vehicle for any little thing. I had a Chevy recalled back in the 90's because a rubber seal in the wiper arm could leak and cause a possible short circuit of the wiper motor which could possibly start a fire. However, the next sentence stated there were no documented cases of this happening.

Looking back to about 1991 with our GMC/Chev. trucks, I can "recall" maybe three or four mfr. recalls on probably 7 vehicles? Most were for minor issues.

That'd be three S-body trucks and one S Blazer (all 4x4s); Two full sized 4x4s; The boss chick's '06 Colorado crew cab 4x4.

"Worst" recall, was for a possible defective brake light switch on the Colorado, when it was about a year old?

Mechanical issues, covered under warranties: Elec. wiring probs in the '91 S10 (pinched wire harness in console); Bad 5 spd. tranny in her '94 GMC Sonoma. Not sure if it was "operator error" or a defect, (free extended drive train warranty on that deal); Probs with remote door lock (rear hatch) on the '97 Blazer.

Bad tailgate strap on my S-10 ZR2; Replaced V6 intake gasket, same truck (35,000 miles); Two engine sensors, Fan switch/motor on '06 Sierra; Power steering box seal leak, same truck (replaced with new box); Replaced one emer. brake cable on the Colorado; New ignition switch, Colorado.

So that's 7 new vehicles over a 20 year period. Most had 45,000 to 50,000 miles when traded on another new one. One had about 60,000 miles. The Colorado is now around 33,000 miles. My '10 Silverado Z71 is now at almost 20K.

Let start by saying I was in the auto repair business for
over 30 years. All the trucks on the market are pretty well
made. Each has It,st own problems. Some are fixable some
not. If the problem is a major engineering problem, it
might not get fixed by the dealer. Dealers fix minor problems
quit well. You have to check with previous owners of the
model you are interested in to see if you can live with what
ever problem it might have. Check major features of each
vehicle such as 4 valve er cylinder motors, 6 speed trans
variable valve timing, and 8/4 cylinder operation. You
have to decid wheather or not you think a company can put
the reliableity you need in each of these or other features.
trailer towing ratings, rear axle ratios,brake sizes all are
apart of purchasing a truck. Think about what you are going
to do with the vehicle and then make your decision. My
best deals have been made with the Fleet sales person,
ask for him when you walk in the door. End of the year
rebates can be a good deal. Also check with your mechanic
to see what one he works on the least.

sidepass,

If you are anywhere near Terre Haute, IN, shoot me a PM. A good friend of mine owns Toyota of Terre Haute and I can put you in touch with him.

Seems to me that Toyota Motor Corporation is a publicly traded corporation (TM on the NYSE). Anyone who wishes to buy stock in TM shares in the profits of that company just as much as anyone else who owns stock in GM shares in their profits...

It's pretty apparent that some people didn't pay attention in their Economics class. Where do you think that the bulk of the money goes? FYI, toyota is a Japanese company with its headquarters in Japan. Some people just don't get it.

Actually, you can't buy stock in Toyota here in the U.S.

Sorry...

I recently purchased a new F150 4wd with 3:73 gears and the Ecoboost engine. I am simply in love with this truck. It rides like a Lexus and hauls azz like a Vette. If I drive it at 65mph I get 21 mpg. Once I hit 70mph the mileage goes down to about 18.5. It is really a nice truck.

Go with the Ford
I just traded my 04 with 85,000 miles on the clock.
The only work performed on the truck other than oil, filter and tranny fluid replaclement,was replacing the rear brake pads and a power steering return line.
The truck ran and rode like it was new.
I`m sure the 5.0 would meet your towing requirements.
You may want to check into the heavy duty payload package.
The Ford is a better looking truck IMHO.
I`m sure you`ll be happy with whatever truck you choose.

Good luck, Dennis

Which Lexus and Vette have you owned?

I have owned a Lexus. No, it won't beat a vette, but it's fast and I think you understood the point.

I'm on my 4th Toyota truck. I've had a 1997 T-100, loved it, a 2001 Tundra, loved it, a 2007 Tundra, REALLY loved it, and I'm now driving a 2010 Tundra. Need I say, "I love it too" BTW, I had absolutly ZERO problems with my 2007 Tundra, as is the case with all my other Toyota trucks. FYI, I'm now dealing on a 2012 Toyota Camry. That Camry will be our 4th. We've had NOTHING but good luck with our Toyotas, and because of that, we'll continue to buy Toyota.
I laugh when I hear some folks saying that ALL the money from Toyota goes to Japan because it is a company from Japan. I suppose they believe that the over 50,000 Americans making a living from working in Toyota plants in the US, are all working for nothing and not getting paid at all. I supposed all those folks working in India, etc. for Dell, Gateway, Apple (American Companys) arent' making any money, or what they do make is being ALL sent back to the US. Get real. There are a lot of good (trucks) products out there, and everyone is entitled to like and buy what they want. I'm a very patriotic American (Vietnam Vet), but I don't buy into that 'Pearl Harbor' BS that some folks try to push. Some in here talk about knowing economincs, but they need to get their head out of their (^# and open their eyes..... and study economics themselves. Top (red) Tundra is my 2010 Tundra. I love it. Bottom (green) truck was my 2007 Tundra. It was (like all my other Toyota trucks) NEVER in the shop.

Congrats on your long and satisfactory love affair with Toyota.

Point A: Pearl Harbor wasn't just some "BS". It was far more than that and as such, it still retains some relevance to many of us here in the USA. Especially those whose family members served in WWII. More so, for those who lost said family members due to combat with the forces of Imperial Japan.

Point B: The previous poster stated that corporate PROFITS go back to the manufacturing entity, in the nation where it originated and is still headquartered.

None of which has anything to do with where their assorted manufacturing facilities are located at present; Employee salaries; or local taxes.

Love your Toyotas. That is your choice. Some of us prefer not to indulge.

The uneducated toyota apologist returns again to regurgitate the corporate toyota BS.

SOS. Different day.

Just wait a few thousand miles...My '11 rode great too. Now it rattles like a baby in a playpen. It's been in to Ford twice, and going back again this week or next.

I've owned every make of American truck/car, including my current '11 F-150. While I'd love to buy all American all the time, the Tundra I traded on this F-150 was by far the best truck I've owned. The jury is still out on this truck. I like it fine and LOVE the power and towing. I tow a lot spring-fall and it fits my needs with plenty to spare. So far, I'm not impressed with how much the truck rattles. The doors loosen up after driving on the road for a short while and rattle. When you close the doors, front or back, they don't lock up solid like they did in the Tundra. They did when I first bought it or it would still be in the dealers show room.

I'm not going to get into the politics of it, becasue there are VERY valid points for buying American vehicles. I did buy the Tundra used at a Ford dealer, it had 15K miles on it. I don't think I ever paid any money to Toyota for it, because it was never in the shop for anything.

One of my dairy farmer uncles owned nuffin' but Ford trucks all of his life (he made it to 92). Mostly F250s, but his last new one, was a '77 4x4 F150 (retired from the dairyman bidness, by then).

Some of the late 60s and early '70s trucks were rust buckets. One was actually replaced at a nominal fee, with another new one by the dealer. Same dealer he'd dealt with for over 40 years.

Know what he said, if dad or I commented about how "rattly and rusty" his Fords were?

"Sure it rattles goin' down the road, but it's still goin' down the road, ain't it?"



Those trucks all spent most of their lives on dirt roads, deep snow/lots of salt in the winter; muddy field work the rest of the year and were all used hard. Only one he literally ran into the ground, was a 3/4 ton '56 that he bought new when I was a kid. Commonly hauled well over a ton of feed on that thing for years, with the rear bumper almost on the road. Lived out its last years as an off road farm truck, finally broke the frame on it and put 'er in the woods.

I wouldn't mind so much if it was a few years old, but dang it...I've only had it since August. I bought a new one so that stuff didn't happen until later.

Developed a rattle on the passenger side interior of my '06 Sierra Z71 after about three years. Drove me nuts, because it didn't always rattle. Might not do it for weeks, then it'd rattle a bit every day for weeks.

My superior half wasn't amused, when I came home one day with a new '10 Silverado Z71. Told her the Jimmy had started jinglin' again, so I just went out and got me a new one. ;O)

Over 20K on this one and not a peep anywhere, so far.

If I do that I'll need to get a hi-rise topper so I can load all my stuff in it.

It seems that just about every toyota owner has never had their vehicle back the toyota dealership for anything.

These toyota owners must have special vehicles. I say this because every time I drive past the toyota dealerships around here, there's always plenty of toyota vehicles lined up for service work.

I can say in 13 years of ownership, my 1999 Toyota Tacoma has been far and away the best vehicle I have ever owned(mechanically speaking). One set of front brake pads, two front turn signal bulbs, one battery, and a set of contacts in the starter. The brakes, battery, and bulbs go out on any vehicle, so I have spent a total of $65(for the contacts) on unscheduled maintenance/repairs on this truck.

The truck rides like a covered wagon, has very little room inside, and is underpowered when towing but has been one reliable vehicle.

I plan to give the F150 a chance in a few weeks when I get ready to buy a new truck. I will also drive and compare the competition as well. Whichever truck I like the best will be the one I pay for. Having said that I am finding the F150 with the EcoBoost engine very interesting.

I'm not making it up. I never had to take it in for ANYTHING. I

I have 4 Ford trucks, so that may tell you where my allegiance is but I'm not going to BS you about it either. From what I can see so far...Ford has a long way to go to catch up to Toyota.

These truck lined up for your so called service work, could very well be there for routine maintenance. I'm glad you're starting to see that the Toyota's are special, even though they're not immune to routine maint. I take my Ford to the dealar for maintenance like the oil changes. Mechanically, that is all I've had to do to it. The rattle in the doors is driving me nuts though.

This is the kind of information I have been looking for. People that have experience with both trucks. In your opinion, what makes you feel the Tundra is the better truck?

I really like the thoughts of the EcoBoost but I don't want to be part of Ford's R&D for this engine. It is obviously a powerful engine but my concern is its complexity and its long term reliability.

Really! You stopped in asking what the LINE was for?

of course it could have been for the free oil change

Everything about the Tundra felt new and tight up to the day I traded it. It had 90K miles on it when it went to Ford. Suspension, steering, windows, interior, doors...everything was working and still felt new.

The only reason I got rid of it, is because my kids didn't fit in the back seat anymore. Mine was a 2006, so it was the smaller body style. Mine was an SR5 model so there wasn't anything fancy on it. Same with my current F-150 which is the XLT w/chrome and the Max Tow package.

I drove the ecoboost and the v-8. The Eco-boost was OK to me. The dealer sold plenty of both. The EB didn't get the gas mileage as advertised and the 5.0L v-8 has lots of power. I pull a #5500 boat/motor/gear around almost every weekend and you barely know it's back there.

That's odd, since my 2011 F-150 has zero squeaks, rattles or vibrations. 13350 miles on it so far.
It's quieter than my sister's Toyota. Well, the exhaust is louder, but I'll take that!

I'm sorry to hear yours isn't satisfying you.

I like the exhaust sound on it. It will sound great with duals when I get em...hell it sounds great now when you hit the go switch.

The rattle is something wrong with the hinges. They keep coming loose after a short time over bumps. I have 12,500 mi or so.

During Four Wheeler Magazine's test of the Ford EcoBoost 4WD for the title of "Truck of the Year," they had one instance where the engine got too warm and it sort of went into a "sleeper mode" as it cooled down. They described it as a sluggish loss of power.
They also had one tank of gas that didn't get the fuel mileage it should have. Not stated just what, such as type of driving they were doing when that happend.
This is unacceptable to me in a 4WD hunting truck. It must deliever full power at all times, especially when under stress. E

Quit deliverin' pizzas and see if the hinges last longer? :O)

That's how I pay for it.

Thanks for the reply. The 5.0 has plenty of power for what I need and is surely a proven design.

I have read a few reports of odd engine misses and quirks as well as a few transmission issues on various F150 forums concerning the EcoBoost. I'm not sure I want to jump on the EcoBoost bandwagon just yet...especially since the 5.0L is a proven design. I do like the route Ford is going with the EcoBoost versus what GM and Dodge have done with the cylinder deactivation on their trucks.

Someone's panties are bunched up. Hell no I didn't stop in there. I wouldn't want to be seen in any foreign vehicle dealers lot. One thing as far as the "free oil change" BS. Judging by the number of vehicles there every day, the dealerships would have long since gone broke giving away all of that oil and labor for free.

A friend of mine HAD a toyota tundra for a while. He brought it in on two separate occasions for a warped dash and a bent tailgate. (He made the mistake of trying to put an atv into the box of his tundra.) BTW, he DID NOT mention getting a free oil change with his repair. He's now driving a Jeep.

IIRC, there was a member here extolling the virtues of his toyota tundra for quite some time. He finally let the cat out of the bag and told of all of the problems with it and that he had sold it. I believe that he went to Ford and bought a truck.

Wow....talk about a step in the wrong direction.



I've hauled my ATV in the back of my tundra dozens of times and it was the smaller Tundra. No problems there.

It wasn't me, if that's what you're getting at. I got the Ford for price reasons and I liked the way they look more than the tundra's. But I've said it before, it's a long way from being the quality of the Tundra I had. Not sayinig I won't buy another Ford, because in all likelyhood, I will. It really depends on the deal I can get. The only way I'll take another Chevy truck is if I win it. Even then I'm selling it right away.

tzone, I was not, and have not, referred to you in any of my posts. The tundra owner was from somewhere else.

I agree on the Jeep too. I would not buy a GM or a Chrysler product. They both took bailout money and NEITHER paid all of the money back.

MIVHNTR,

You have made 5 or 6 posts in this thread, but have yet to give any experiences as to why you feel the F150 is better than the others I asked about. Do you even drive a F150 or other Ford truck?

LOL! Yes, I own a Ford truck(s). Actually, I have two of them right now. I have owned trucks all of my life. This includes F-150s, F-250s and Rangers. Many, many years ago, I owned Dodge and GM trucks.

The new F-150 has the towing capacity, engine options, cab configurations and dependability to make it the #1 selling truck for more than a few years. Check the facts yourself. My last F-150 was a very good truck and I had zero complaints with it. Furthermore, Ford is an American company that wasn't bailed out by the taxpayers.

This is one of my current Ford trucks, an F-250 Super Duty 4x4. As far as the foreign "trucks", bring it.

Thanks for the reply and I do give Ford credit for not having to take bailout money to make it.

On a side note, you do realize that those Couriers, Rangers & Escapes utilized a lot of Mazda parts?

I figured that was the case.

I have had no luck with Chrylser or GM products...I take that back. I had a 1988 Buick Regal GS that was a good car while I had it in the late 90's. The only problem I had with it the mass air flo sensor, but that car had over 100k on it at that point. It would boogie pretty good when I needed it to.

You do realize that Ford once owned 33.4% of Mazda? Further, Ford's 33.4% stake in Mazda gave Ford the controlling interest in Mazda. That being the case, it made good economic sense to do this, since Ford was the driving force behind the company. Until 2010 Ford still owned 11% of Mazda. In 2010 Ford sold off 8% of Mazda and kept 3%.

Now you not only know that Ford utilized Mazda parts, but now you know why they used them.



Link:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/11/ford-and-mazda-to-sign-divorce-papers-tomorrow/


Here's more information concerning Ford and ownership of other car companies.
During the 1990s, Ford Motor Company bought Volvo, Jaguar, Land Rover, and Aston Martin.

I did not know the percentages but was well aware of the fact that Ford had a controlling intrest in Mazda. IMO the management at Ford did a much better job than their couterparts at GM & Chrysler in aticipating a "rainy day".

Add me to the list of those that bought a 2011 F150, we went for the 5 litre in a crewcab. Really nice truck, tons of power, acres of room, very comfortable and decent mileage. Not great side visibility, but everything is a tradeoff.We will be pulling our 5000 trailer all over the western states and Canada with it so got the trailer package and 3.73 gears. FWIW, previous truck was a 97 powerstroke, which was a good tow vehicle, a beast in "town", and was wearing out all round the motor at 300K.

I have the 5.3 in a GMC Sierra extended cab 1500. 4:10 gears, tow package, and an automatic. It averages 14.5 mpg all around. Will get 16 to 18 on the highway but around the farm and driving into town on the gravel its usually around 13 to 14. Mileage drops in the winter. Its been reliable and at 52K has given me no major trouble.

Yep and Volvo is worse off then before Ford bought them. Jaguar ,Land Rover are now made in China and run by an Indian company. Aston Martin is non relevant. Not good examples that you cited.

2000 mile report on the 2011 f150 I bought. 5.0 4wd 3.73 trailer tow pack reg cab. Averaging anywhere from 17-21mpg depending on the mood and getting 0-60 times in the mid 6 second range.. I have all 3 makes in the driveway. 2008 Ram and a 2000 Silverado. Ive been happy with all of them... but when I bought this Ford.. the bailouts were taken into consideration.

Perhaps you should do some research before you make such statements. The information about the other car companies was to show that Ford had varied investments in different markets.

Ford sold Aston Martin in 2007. Ford sold Jaguar and Land Rover in 2008. Ford sold Volvo in 2010. Whatever happens to any of these companies today has nothing to do with Ford Motor Company.
So, what's your point?

It wouldn't surprise me to find out that you drive a rice burner or one of obama's bailout specials.

MIVHNTR

How much of the Ford F-150 pickup has roots in Mexico?

It's public knowledge and a quick internet search will answer all of your questions. Ford has manufacturing/assembly plants worldwide. Ford is headquartered in Dearborn, MI USA.

Ford Motor Company World Headquarters
1 American Road
P.O. Box 6248
Dearborn, Michigan 48126-2798
United States


A quick search also shows that you are a toyota apologist. It's no wonder you attempt to disparage an American company. Your "truck" company is headquartered in Japan.

toyota motor corporation
Company Address
Head Office 1 Toyota-Cho, Toyota City, Aichi Prefecture 471-8571, Japan

So you are saying you are cool with "Your" truck's company having a Michigan address and a "Made in Mexico" sticker on it?

BTW, I am cool with "my" truck's company address in Japan with a "Made in the USA" sticker.

It's tough to buy "Made in the USA" anymore. I even bought a Snap-on multi tool the other day that turned out to be made in China.

I'm happy to say my truck helped put money in the pocket of U.S. workers.

Ford no doubt builds good trucks, but so does Toyota.

I'll support an American company before I would support any foreign company. It takes more than a label printed in a foreign country that says "Made in the USA" to convince me that the vehicle is an American product.


Here we go with a basic economics lesson again.
Ford is an American company and the money stays in the USA.


toyota is a Japanese company. The money goes to Japan. This contributes to the trade deficit and this makes you happy?
Some people just don't get it.

I dont have a dog in this fight, But the way I see it. Fords' corperate offices are here in the USA, but the $ doesn't stay here cause they do have to pay the corperations in Mexico (or wherever else they have things built for them) or they wouldn't do the work for them. Toyota actually pays more American employees to build their stuff here. So why is one better than the other? Personally I like the fact that toyota is employing the woeking class here, where as ford is paying the big wigs here and the working class in Mexico. YMMV.

It's obvious where your loyalties lie.

Again, some people just don't get it.

I'm cool with my truck having a US address and a made in US sticker on it, so there

It's obvious you like the above statement. Well, that line of thinking is exactley what helped countries outside the U.S. get a foothold in the auto and truck market, among other things, in this country. Rather than keep up with the competition, and build better products, some companies just bragged about being an American company, insinuating that made them better, regardless of how bad their products were. They practically invited countries outside our borders to come and sell here. Well, it bit them big time and they will pay for that forever.

I am on record here for saying I think it is much harder to buy a bad pickup in today's world than a good one. I also don't like the way the bailouts went so that leaves two brands I MYSELF won't buy. Other people's mileage may vary and I accept that. Choosing from what is left will not be decided on whether it is "an American company" but rather what I feel is the best truck for me. Brand loyalty means nothing to me as I have had a slew of different brands of autos and trucks over the last fifty years. Most were pretty good, some just fair, a very few were terrible for one reason or another. Today if they all seem equal I will try to choose what helped the American worker the most.

To sum it up, when you despise a vehicle made by a company located outside the U.S. just remember "YOUR" company helped let them get established here by building products less desireable than their's years ago. Do you get that?

Yeah right. Just look at all those less desirable vehicles from back when the U.S. dominated auto sales worldwide changing hands at Barret Jackson each January for six figures.

It is this gross misconception that the foreign vehicles are in some way superior that allowed foreign companies to sell their products in the USA. This is proof that some people can't think on their own two feet to form their own opinion.
Instead, they just spew out the garbage that they are spoon fed. Then, they can twist and turn things any way that they want to justify their actions.

So yes, some people just do not get it. Your rambling post just verifies this.

Less desirable product? Quick, name 10 innovations the Japanese have brought to the car and truck market. Go!

Appears you want a light duty truck, that won't be hauling much or traveling a lot on POS roads ? If so really no choice but an F 150. Had several, and they were all good light duty trucks.

If tough conditions, heavy hauling and 500,000 miles is just broken in, it's a different world. The word is C-U-M-M-I-N-S.

Jap innovations ? Drifting racing.

Inovations don't necessarily drive vehicle sales. There are many other things that cause Mr. or Mrs. customer to favor one product over another. Reliability is a big one. It's up to the automotive companies to listen and respond. For starters why did two of the big three in the U.S. need to be bailed out. It sure wasn't because they sold too many vehicles was it? Something else was obviously more desireable than their vehicles in the customer's eyes. And don't try to pawn it off on the "people are stupid" theory. Remember the phrase, "The customer is always right". The customer didn't like what somebody was selling so they went elsewhere.

Ford to their credit held on without needing bailout money. I commend them for that. But, I still like their competitor's truck better so that's what I bought even though it cost more money. Obviously you don't agree and that is your privelege. But if you think a vehicle made in the United States with a foreign companies name on it is automatically inferior to one with an American name on it you are only fooling yourself. It's thinking like that that allowed the foreign companies to get their foot in the door to begin with.

Or some would say Duramax which the word is I-S-U-Z-U.

You are right, I don't need something for heavy hauling on POS roads. I'll venture to say that the greatest majority of the posters here don't either.

I do know I can drive on some pretty bad roads with my truck and not tear it up. That's good enough for me, I'm happy.

Since YOU brought up companies that needed to be bailed out because "Something else was obviously more desireable than their vehicles in the customer's eyes." and "The customer didn't like what somebody was selling so they went elsewhere."

Here's some news for you.
YOUR company, toyota, got bailed out by the Japanese government. How could this have happened? Especially since you've posted this insightful pile of BS: "I will say that from what I have observed the Tundra 5.7 will out pull any half ton truck with a gas engine on the road." Evidently, more than a few people disagree with your astute observation and find the toyota to be lacking.

You can talk about others being fooled, but you're the one that has been fooled. Big time. To make it even more laughable, you even admitted to paying more money to do it. P. T. Barnum sure had this one right.

If they are building vehicles nobody wants, riddle me this. Why has GM attained #1 auto maker in the world for 2011? You may say that Toyota had it the past few years, but combined over time, GM has sold more vehicles than Toyota ever has. So your theory that they are building products that are not desireable does not hold water.

A bunch of people have really stupid ideas about this stuff. It's bad when any company goes under no matter who it is. The employees, the suppliers, people being supplied, everyone gets hurt. If one of the big 3 went down it would hurt the economy big time. Hundreds of thousands of people get their livelihood from GM. Terrible union agreements were strangling the company. And idiots are saying they won't buy GM because of govt. money? Some years back Chrysler was bailed out. Funny how some people love to brag on Ford not receiving any Govt. funding......they received plenty before the "bailout" and are still getting it, only under a different name. Do some checking, it's easy to find.




And this...



The pot calling the kettle black.

Did this cost the U.S. taxpayer anything?

I couldn't care less if the Japs bailed out the company. They did it with Jap $.

+1000

What a bunch of BS. Is this mr. goodwrench, aka the guy in Washington, D.C.? A government motors apologist trying to turn things to suit themselves.

You do some checking yourself. There's a big difference in paying off the unions and lying about paying the money back like gm did. gm still owes over $26 Billion and chrysler still owes over $2 billion. The taxpayer will never see a return on this government "investment".


From the NY Times. Tuesday Jan. 31, 2012:
"The Ford Motor Company, founded in 1903 by Henry Ford, is one of the largest auto makers in the world.

During a time of crisis throughout the auto industry in recent years, Ford emerged as the sole American automaker in a position to survive the steepest sales downturn in decades without a government bailout. That helped the company improve its reputation and win new customers.

Ford passed Toyota as the No. 2 seller in the United States in 2010."

"Ford�s current strength stems from what was a literal bet-the-company decision in 2006 to borrow $23.6 billion, putting even the company�s fabled blue logo up as collateral. That money helped Ford move more quickly than General Motors or Chrysler to bring out new lines of more fuel-efficient vehicles, and, more crucially, provided a cash cushion when the car market tanked along with the economy in late 2008. Ford also shifted its strategy to focus on its core brands and has sold off luxury brands, including Jaguar and Land Rover to the Tata Group of India for $2.3 billion in 2009. In March 2010, Ford reached an agreement to sell its Volvo subsidiary to a Chinese conglomerate."

Further, while Ford BORROWED money, it was all paid back. With interest. In the meantime gm and chrysler also borrowed money AND took bailout cash. We all know how that repayment went.

Another research article.
"Fellow Ford spokeswoman Christin Baker this week pointed out that Ford reported its participation in the CPFF in its public SEC filings. She also said Ford participated in the Federal Reserve's Term Asset-Backed Security Loan Facility, noting that "these two programs addressed systematic failure in the credit markets, and that neither program was designed for a particular company, or even a particular industry.

"Ford was a fractional participant in both of these credit programs, and the federal government made healthy returns on all of these limited transactions."

Bottom line? Yes, Ford's credit arm participated in a federal program meant to free up short-term lending at a time when very few investors were spending. It's no secret."

From a bit more research and a different resource.
"automotive lending companies got the most help, and leading the way was Ford Credit, which borrowed $15.9 billion. GMAC, GM�s financing arm which provided auto loans beyond the GM family of vehicles, took $13.9 billion. BMW took $6.2 billion. Chrysler $4.9 billion and Toyota $4.6 billion.

The GM and Chrysler loans were completely separate from those two companies� government-financed bankruptcies. We realize the two transactions are quite different, and this loan was not a bailout. All of this aid (Ford Motor Company) has since been repaid with interest to the government."

The point that was made (and went right over quite a few peoples heads BTW) is that you associated the US auto makers bailout with US made vehicles that were sub-standard to toyota. Following your twisted train of thought, toyota got bailed out because their vehicles are sub-standard to other vehicles.

I could care less that the Japanese goverment bailed toyota out. After all, I didn't support toyota to start with. You can't say the same.

No this isn't mr. goodwrench or some guy in Washington. And your kind of BS gets tiresome. You must be mr. sh#tforbrains, aka the ford guy in MI.

Great reply. It just makes you look even more foolish than you already are. The truth must really hurt. So much for your research smart guy.

Yeah right. GM and Chrysler are bad for staying afloat. Ford also has a lot of taxpayer money but they're golden because you're mr. fordguy. Two huge corporations going under would affect millions of people. Taxpayers who wouldn't be paying, consumers who wouldn't be consuming. But don't buy from either company because they did what they had to do. You stupid jerkoff.

Okay, lets do it your way. Tell me why Toyota has managed to sell so many vehicles in the U.S. in the last few years? Tell me why the Tacoma sells so well and the Ranger is all but dead? Why does the Camry sell so well. Why do folks want to buy a Prius? Why do the 4-Runners sell as well as they do?

And please, lets not go to the "People are stupid and don't know any better". There has to be a reason. What is it?

To the original person who started this thread I apologize for getting so far off topic. It was not my intention to derail it as bad as has happened.

There is no sense in carrying on this one sided discussion with these two rocket scientists anymore. I learned a long time ago that you can't fix stupid.

I agree as it is obvious you've failed to fix yourself.

Expat

What have the U.S. taxpayers shelled out to protect the Japanese home islands for the past 67 years? I'm guessing it is in the trillions of dollars. The money the Japanese government should have spent on their own defense instead was used to prop up their industry so they could wage economic imperialism against United States industry.

Why was that answer so predictable?

Walt

I won't argue that point at all with you, you are right on the money. They should never have been given so much help to rebuild after being the one to start the war.

However you can't take away the fact they learned to build quality products regardless of what it was. Early Japanese products I remember were largely junk but they got better at the U.S. expense. I would have never guessed so many brands that were always made in the U.S. would be made elsewhere including Japan.

Yep. Now I'm pretty sure he has a Ram and mentioned getting a new one.

I've had great luck with my '07 Ram, not a problem to date. I've owned GM, Ford, Jeep's too. Had the most serious issues with my Fords. A few issues here and there on the others but nothing major.

Never owned a Toyota so I can't speak on their behalf. Drive as many different truck and models as you can and go with the one you're most comfortable with.

Good luck NYH1.

The third, and final, stooge arrives. Is it Larry, Curley or Moe? No disrepect meant to the original 3 Stooges. ExpatFromOK is also known as mr. ASSume.

walt501, EXCELLENT post. However, don't confuse the apologists with too many facts. Their panties get bunched up if you do.

With a little google research you'll find that Ford does get money from .gov. I do beleive it was paid back though.

That's pretty chickenshitt. You can't answer with facts so you ignore it...Nice.

Should be no surprise. The guy's proud of his own stupidity. Been throwing his ugly crap at others for quite awhile and chickenschitts out when it comes back on him......he's a pussy. Doesn't matter if he blocks people, he'll be sneaking looks to see what they've said.

tzone, that's pretty chickenshitt. You can't read the facts, so you ignore them....Nice.

I posted the facts about Ford's loans in a post above. You come back with a post saying to google the answer. It's not my problem if you chose not to read, or comprehend, what was posted.
I'll put it in plain language. It's not my fault that people choose not to understand anything and it's a waste of time replying to them.

Putting the fools on ignore says that I could care less what some brain dead moron has to say, which I don't. Their idiotic rhetoric is worthless, as it comes from someone that has neither the ability, nor the capability, to think or reason on their own. They are not only ignorant, but also irrelevant. Their asinine rantings are proof of it.

He had valid points, that counterd yours. You have valid points that counter his...that's what makes a conversation.

Keep posting! You are great for laughs! You certainly keep me coming back!

Expat

One word.........

Earthquake.

I think you can figure that one out.(No slam intended BTW)

Sooooooooooo, How do i rate for this problem... Been a Ford guy forever.. My last truck had some problems my Ford service sucked so bad over the years of owning that truck i was fed up... In 2010 i bought a new chevy truck,not a big fan of the bailout i still bought a chevy....

Sometimes there other reasons why people switch truck brands....

All the trucks now a days are pretty good... Dont understand how somebody can be so one sided on one truck company....

Well, I won't buy a Chev because of the quality and service I got from my 04. I'd buy a classic or an older truck, but nothing newer than a mid 80's truck.

I like my Fords but I've had my fair share of trouble with them. I like my '11 F-150 despite some issues that are pretty minor, really, just annoying. Dodge wasn't real good to me, but they still make the best looking truck IMO. All the trucks and cars have had their pluses and minuses. That's why they make so many of em.

You have a pretty big opinion of yourself don't you. I was probably driving a pickup already when you had crap in your diapers. Have you ever gotten out of your backyard? Somehow I doubt it.

I realize that brand loyalty is very strong in rigs but you are probably the worst I have seen or heard of and I've run into a pile of them over the years in most every state in the U.S. I said before I could probably like a Ford truck, in fact I have had them in the past, but I have to say you make a pretty questionable advocate for them. I'd sure hate to have you for a salesman if I owned a Ford dealership.

Go ahead and sneek a peek. Anyone that has to tell the world they are putting someone on ignore isn't smart enough to just not read what that person is posting. It's just more of your showboating.

To the OP. 2010 Tundra 4.6 DblCb Longbed.

20K trouble free miles.

Thanks for the reply.

A guy at work just bought a 2012 4x4 Crew Max Tundra with the big V-8. I sat in it and I must say it has plenty of room in it and is a heck of a nice truck. He traded a 2006 Chevy with the 5.3 Vortec that was using alot of oil. I have read and heard about the oil issue with the Chevy 1500's. It does tick me off that there is an issue there and GM seems to ignore it. Just like the steering shaft issue that plagued certain year models. Has that turned me completely against GM trucks, well not yet, but another truck brand has been on my mind.

I have been a die hard Chevy man for years and do have the 2006 HD with the Duramax. It is a heck of a truck and does a good job for what it was designed for. Only bad thing about it is it is not too good for a run around grocery getter. Like all trucks Chevy have had their fair share of issues. Ford and the others have also had their problems, one being the 6.0 Powerstroke. Does that mean that all Fords are bad? Heck no. I am sure that they build some pretty good trucks. Would I buy one? Don't really know because there has been this Ford against Chevy rivalry in my brain since I was a kid. Same way on the race track each week, I want a Chevy to beat the fords and the rest of them. I think we all can get caught up in that way of thinking. We want to think that out brand is better than someone else�s brand. I believe that is what is wrong with MIVHNTR.

In the future I am thinking about buying me another 1/2 ton or smaller gas powered truck. I would consider a Chevy, Tundra or maybe a Ford, who knows. As far as GM taking a bailout that does not bother me one bit. There are other things to worry about in this life and GM taking a bailout is not going to cause me to get my dandruff up. Go out and buy whatever brand of vehicle you want and be happy. No matter what you buy someone is going to have some negative comment about it. Who cares as long as you are happy. Like the song goes, don�t worry be happy.

No problem! Also it's a 4x4 forgot that part.

I recently traded a 2004 Chevy 2500 Quad Cab HD 4x4 with 6.0 gas engine and 4.10 rear end. It was a short bed and did everything I ever asked of it. It didn't have a very good turning radius and I averaged about 13 mpg. I traded it this past August with 68K on it.

I bought a 2011 Tundra Double Cab 4x4 with 5.7 with 4.30 rear end and a short bed. This truck provides a very nice ride, plenty of power and very good off road capability if I take off the traction control. I have about 7700 miles on it and have averaged 17.1 MPG so far.

Just my experience.

Mike.

2006 model year for GM was pre-V8 to 4 cyl. operation, which is said to be at the root of the oil consumption problems now, in those trucks.

Had well over 50K on my '06 Sierra Z71 (5.3L aluminum), never had excessive oil consumption issues between changes and I generally went 5K between them.

Aside from all the cyber spittle about bailouts; where the money goes; etc, it is well to remember that most, if not all, Nip automakers were heavily-subsized by their home government, which may or may not account for their initial success in gaining a toehold in our market?

While our government was busy adding additional burdens each year to our auto industry, the Nips were busy making sure their manufacturers' products could be sold here at a profit.

When it eventually became economically feasible to start building their production plants here, they did it. VW tried that many years ago in PA and it never worked out, back when they gave it a whirl. Depends on who ya asked, as to why.

Some blame VW, some blame unionization?

I buy GM because they've been pretty good to me over many years. Looked seriously at a new Taco in '02, couldn't pass up the much better price on a new S-10 ZR2 back then (still one of my favorite trucks). Many friends drive Toyotas, but the new Tundras look pretty fugly to me. Have owned Dodge trucks, will never own another one. So be it.

Point being...THEIR HOME government.

Theres some awfully nice trucks being made now. While the brand loyal banter is fun theres no need cheating yourself out of trying something you like due to brand pride. I used to live eat and breathe Fords. Wouldnt drive anything else and even raced Fords on dirt when almost no one else was. I guess age has mellowed me now cause I have a Ram a Silverado and an F150... They all have their strengths and weaknesses and I like all 3... so buy and drive whatever makes ya happy.

Just got back from a 1100 mile trip in '12 Chevy 1/2 ton crew cab 4x4. Speeds from 70-78 mph and quite a bit of crosswind/headwind, averaged right at 16.5 mpg for the entire trip. 3 guys and hunting gear. FWIW.

Not bad. Do you have the aluminum block 5.3 with AFM?

Yes, it is a half ton with the 5.3. I don't recall the gearing off the top of my head.

I was a diehard Chevy fan for most of my life but eventually bought a 99 Dodge 1/2 ton QC 4x4, it was ordered exactly as I wanted but the fuel mileage was horrible, I traded and went upside down for a 99 3/4 ton QC 4x4 Cummins and drove it 82K and sold it. Finances didn't allow another until I bought a used 01 to match my 99, loved it until diesel went to 3.50/gl.

I have been in my 05 Frontier 4x2 for six years and 150K, and I really want another fullsize 4x4 now.

I have looked at several and taken a few test drives and my favorite exterior is the new Chevy/GMC, but one issue is just gnawing me...the bailout money.

With two girls headed off to college in December I won't be buying new, maybe go go look for a first or second gen Dodge.




My Nissan has been a pretty good truck, I went Japanese because in my experience, Japanese trucks and cars rattled less especially with high mileage.

I will say I was disappointed as hell, when I had to replace the window motor in my made in the USA, Nissan. After I had the door panel off I found a made in India wiring harness and a Chinaloca window motor. It is still pretty dang quiet with very few squeaks or rattles though.

I can say if I had the time and money, I would just build the truck I want, nothing fancy really, just not offered: a 1996 Ford F250 Crew Cab, short box 4x4 with a Cummins 12V and a bench seat.

Yah, but subsidization by their government/lack of equalizing import tariffs, gave them an edge over American manufacturers at a time when the Feds were coming up with new regs/roadblocks almost on a monthly basis, some of which tended to impair product development/sales here.

Then there's the established union situation at American plants, none of which were impediments to eventually moving Jap production here. And if not mistaken, tax incentives for those Jap-owned plants, were another factor in most states?

If ya recall, the Japs made serious inroads in the small truck market, at a time US manufacturers weren't geared towards developing their own small trucks? Once the "toehold" was established and Americans began to buy Toyotas, Datsuns and Mazda pickups, US mfrs. finally got into the small truck market, but were already at somewhat of a disadvantage.

What did it take for Toyota to finally produce a "full size" pickup, 20 years? And the original Tundras weren't really "full size", as they are now.

Toyota makes a pretty good truck, but I've never really wanted one. Closest I ever came to buying a Taco, was in '02, but the Chevy S-10 ZR2 was thousands cheaper at the time, with factory rebates.

Few problems with the GMC/Chevy pickups I've driven over the past 42 years and only one was not made in the USA (had a '69 Canadian C-10). No reason to change that I can think of?

Everyone else is free to choose their own poison? ;O)

Two years ago I bought a new Nissan Titan. More HP and torque than I'll ever need. It'll pass anything but a gas station. I love it.

The only problem I've had was with the HVAC. They fixed it under warrenty and that was that. It came with plenty of options and was cheaper out the door than any of the big three or Toyota.

If you trust Consumer Reports, the Titan is now the most reliable full size truck on the road. Next year they may feel different but that's how their seeing it this year.

I think the Titan has a nicer interior than the Tundra and it has a much stiffer frame too. Fully laddered.

Dan

My brother in law got a Nissan Titan and he says all the same things. Thirsty but an absolute hoot to drive -- and extremely comfortable with lots of room (and he is a big bastid too).

John