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Posted By: Rock Chuck Limited slip question - 01/09/13
...for those with a lot of slick highway driving experience with one...
I know they'll get you going and keep you going, but how are they for icy highways? Will it break both rear wheels free and skid you more than an open diff? Can they be more of a liability than an asset on ice?
Posted By: EZEARL Re: Limited slip question - 01/09/13

Factory limited slips (can't comment on aftermarket ones) wouldn't be totally engaging at highway speeds(low engine rpms). I've had them in all my trucks and suvs over the yrs,except for the '96 Cherokee I now own,and some do engage at lower rpms than others but still not at the low rpms of on road travel. I do miss having one in my Cherokee and am seriously considering some type of rear traction control device.

Here's a good read(takes a few seconds to download):
http://www.offroaders.com/tech/limited-slip-lockers-differentials.htm
Posted By: 458 Lott Re: Limited slip question - 01/09/13
I've got nearly 90k miles on my 2500 ram w/ limited slip and honestly I don't find the limited slip to be an issue on icy roads, and we have had our share the last few winters. My previous truck had an open diff. The bigger issue is the diesel engine and not much bed weight. I run studded tires in the winter and pop it into 4wd when things get real slick. If you do alot of winter driving you'll have to occasional pucker moments, but it's amazing how simply getting your foot off the gas will typically straighten everything out.

I wouldn't want a locking diff on icy roads, but limited slip is probably more of an asset than a detriment.
Posted By: fish head Re: Limited slip question - 01/09/13
I'd take a limited slip or a GM locking dif over an open dif any day of the week. It's what gets you going at low speeds that matters most.

At highway speeds on super slippery roads it's time for 4WD drive and avoiding mishaps has more to do with tires and driver control than what type of rear end you have. I've been on roads that were so slick (Palmer to Anchorage) I didn't go faster than 40MPH in 4WD and even going that fast had an extreme pucker factor. The people that drove faster were ditch diving in front of me, to the side me, and behind me. It was insane.

True traction control systems are superior to any standard 4wd system at both low and high speeds. Even FWD is better at keeping you out of the ditch vs 4WD at highway speeds.
Posted By: fish head Re: Limited slip question - 01/09/13
I should have added this. The absolute worst vehicles I've ever driven in snowy conditions were all rear wheel/open dif/one wheel drive.
Posted By: chris_c Re: Limited slip question - 01/09/13
Originally Posted by fish head
I'd take a limited slip or a GM locking dif over an open dif any day of the week. It's what gets you going at low speeds that matters most.

At highway speeds on super slippery roads it's time for 4WD drive and avoiding mishaps has more to do with tires and driver control than what type of rear end you have. I've been on roads that were so slick (Palmer to Anchorage) I didn't go faster than 40MPH in 4WD and even going that fast had an extreme pucker factor. The people that drove faster were ditch diving in front of me, to the side me, and behind me. It was insane.

True traction control systems are superior to any standard 4wd system at both low and high speeds. Even FWD is better at keeping you out of the ditch vs 4WD at highway speeds.


+1
Posted By: Bulletbutt Re: Limited slip question - 01/10/13
We ran Detroit Lockers in all our line trucks and I've never owned a pickup without a limited slip. I would never want a line truck without a Detroit Locker or a pickup without a limited slip, but I wouldn't want a Detroit Locker in my pickup because I'm on the highway most of the time. Hope this helps.
Posted By: mcmurphrjk Re: Limited slip question - 01/10/13
I had a 73 CJ5 with the detroit, and trust me, it was a handful on icy roads.
Have a locker in my F250, and no problems at all.
I think the weight of the pickup keeps the engagement and disengagement smooth. In the jeep it was jerky, and jerky is not good on icy roads.
Posted By: WyoCowboy Re: Limited slip question - 01/10/13
a limited slip shouldn't be a problem but as other posters have said a locker on ice can be a handfull, and a locker on ice pulling a 10K lb trailer without breaks on ice was a nightmare
Posted By: Rock Chuck Re: Limited slip question - 01/10/13
Originally Posted by WyoCowboy
a limited slip shouldn't be a problem but as other posters have said a locker on ice can be a handfull, and a locker on ice pulling a 10K lb trailer without breaks on ice was a nightmare
Pulling a 10k trailer without brakes on dry pavement can be a nightmare. I once witnessed a pickup pulling an empty gooseneck horse trailer without brakes rear end a car stopped at some RR tracks. He locked up the truck coming down a gentle hill but the trailer kept on rolling and pushed him into it. If there'd been a train there instead of a car, he'd have likely died. Luckily no one was seriously hurt. Then the dumb ass was trying to blame the woman in the car for not moving out of his way fast enough. Sheesh

But back to the limited slip, I haven't driven one on icy highways. I was reading that it's easy to break both tires loose if you're not very careful & was wondering how bad it really is. Thanks for the info.
Posted By: EZEARL Re: Limited slip question - 01/10/13

My wife or me have NEVER had a problem on ice. For that matter we've NEVER been in a situation where having one has been a liability. But I can tell you we miss one now.
Posted By: senior Re: Limited slip question - 01/10/13
Granted I'm not a die hard off-road nut, but have personally never had the need for a limited or locker in any pick-up I've had. If it's that slippy getting going, push the 4WD button. My new Ford has traction control which I have a love-hate relation with! It does a good job of controlling wheelspin but removes the fun factor when you want to step out the rear end.
Posted By: JPro Re: Limited slip question - 01/10/13
That traction control needs a on-off switch, as it is no good when you are trying to get out of a mud hole. My F150 is probably the worst off-road 4x4 I've ever owned. Concerning road manners, it is the best I've ever owned, which is fairly predictable.
Traction control should be an option to get or leave the hell off the truck. Sadly, it is here to stay. Never had any issues with limited slip except one time on a narrow mountain forest service road that was covered with ice. It was just a fun drive with my bride and newborn, and I had my head out the window looking for sign and the ass end of my suburban made a pretty good run for the the wrong edge of the road.

Posted By: Bulletbutt Re: Limited slip question - 01/11/13
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Originally Posted by WyoCowboy
a limited slip shouldn't be a problem but as other posters have said a locker on ice can be a handfull, and a locker on ice pulling a 10K lb trailer without breaks on ice was a nightmare
Pulling a 10k trailer without brakes on dry pavement can be a nightmare. I once witnessed a pickup pulling an empty gooseneck horse trailer without brakes rear end a car stopped at some RR tracks. He locked up the truck coming down a gentle hill but the trailer kept on rolling and pushed him into it. If there'd been a train there instead of a car, he'd have likely died. Luckily no one was seriously hurt. Then the dumb ass was trying to blame the woman in the car for not moving out of his way fast enough. Sheesh

But back to the limited slip, I haven't driven one on icy highways. I was reading that it's easy to break both tires loose if you're not very careful & was wondering how bad it really is. Thanks for the info.


I guess what I was trying to say is that having driven with limited slip rearends in all my pickups, I don't see them as a potential problem at all, in any situation. The lockers we had in those trucks could put you sideways in really bad icy/snowy conditions, but a limited slip is easier to "read" and use, I think. YMMV, but I doubt it.
Posted By: senior Re: Limited slip question - 01/11/13
Originally Posted by JPro
That traction control needs a on-off switch, as it is no good when you are trying to get out of a mud hole. My F150 is probably the worst off-road 4x4 I've ever owned. Concerning road manners, it is the best I've ever owned, which is fairly predictable.


I don't know what year your Ford is but mine has a simple button on the centre console, you just push & hold till it the icon stops flashing in your instrument panel.
But I do agree you should have to push to engage instead of disengage.
Posted By: K1500 Re: Limited slip question - 01/11/13
I can turn off both Stabilitrac and Traction Control on my truck with a simple push of the button. My old truck would turn off the ABS system when in 4WD. I think the new one leaves it on.
Posted By: rem141r Re: Limited slip question - 01/11/13
i have a 2005 Ram 1500 with the open diff and it is absolutely ball-less off the road. wet grass is too much for it. i was thinking of getting a limited slip put in this spring, but the truck spends a lot more time grocery running than mudding. anyone have any advice on what rear mods to make for a decent compromise?
Posted By: Rock Chuck Re: Limited slip question - 01/11/13
The right tires & some sandbags for weight will make a big difference.
Posted By: Reba Re: Limited slip question - 01/11/13
I owned one pickup with an open diff. It was terrible. I install a factory unit and it was great. With the open dii it wanted to swap ends on slick pavement. With the limited slip it's fun to drive.
Posted By: Mossy Re: Limited slip question - 01/12/13
Originally Posted by rem141r
i have a 2005 Ram 1500 with the open diff and it is absolutely ball-less off the road. wet grass is too much for it. i was thinking of getting a limited slip put in this spring, but the truck spends a lot more time grocery running than mudding. anyone have any advice on what rear mods to make for a decent compromise?


Detroit Tru-trac
Posted By: Oldelkhunter Re: Limited slip question - 01/12/13
Originally Posted by Mossy
Originally Posted by rem141r
i have a 2005 Ram 1500 with the open diff and it is absolutely ball-less off the road. wet grass is too much for it. i was thinking of getting a limited slip put in this spring, but the truck spends a lot more time grocery running than mudding. anyone have any advice on what rear mods to make for a decent compromise?


Detroit Tru-trac


I have always had LS in my trucks and never had a problem. In your situation you could get limited slip or even possibly an air locker to use only when conditions warrant it.
Posted By: Allen917 Re: Limited slip question - 01/12/13
I don't think locking differentials are going to cause you any problems. I've never owned a 4x4 that didn't have lockers.

I've heard guys complain about lockers on ice, but I think the cause of thier problems was probably brakes not differentials. If your vehicles pulls to a side when you brake on dry ground, it is going to spin you on ice.
Posted By: 358Norma_fan Re: Limited slip question - 01/14/13
The longer the wheelbase the less squirly a locker equipped rig is. I've had them in an early Bronco and full sized trucks. The bronco was scary on any kind of an icy road, but I wouldn't have a truck without one.
for an on road truck, Detroit locker but an off road rig you can't beat an ARB air locker.
Posted By: senior Re: Limited slip question - 01/14/13
Originally Posted by Reba
I owned one pickup with an open diff. It was terrible. I install a factory unit and it was great. With the open dii it wanted to swap ends on slick pavement. With the limited slip it's fun to drive.


Isn't that kinda backwards to everybody else's results!
Posted By: Bulletbutt Re: Limited slip question - 01/14/13
Originally Posted by senior
Originally Posted by Reba
I owned one pickup with an open diff. It was terrible. I install a factory unit and it was great. With the open dii it wanted to swap ends on slick pavement. With the limited slip it's fun to drive.


Isn't that kinda backwards to everybody else's results!


Except that with a limited slip you don't spin as soon or as often or as much...you just keep driving.
Posted By: EZEARL Re: Limited slip question - 01/14/13

You'll never realize how GOOD your limited slip is until you drive a vehicle w/o one.
Posted By: Take_a_knee Re: Limited slip question - 01/15/13
Originally Posted by 358Norma_fan
.
for an on road truck, Detroit locker but an off road rig you can't beat an ARB air locker.


This is bass-ackwards. That Detroit locking and unlocking will spin your ass out on an icy curve in an instant. The open diff (unlocked ARB), is just that OPEN, nothing banging and popping and unlocking.
Posted By: Take_a_knee Re: Limited slip question - 01/15/13
Originally Posted by senior
Originally Posted by Reba
I owned one pickup with an open diff. It was terrible. I install a factory unit and it was great. With the open dii it wanted to swap ends on slick pavement. With the limited slip it's fun to drive.


Isn't that kinda backwards to everybody else's results!


No, it's frickin' physics...and a fact. Having both wheels on one axle locked together is bad juju on icy roads. Having an centersection that changes drive force from a spinning wheel to a non-spinning wheel is as good as it gets.
Posted By: Rock Chuck Re: Limited slip question - 01/15/13
Quote
Having an centersection that changes drive force from a spinning wheel to a non-spinning wheel is as good as it gets.
...as long as you keep of the throttle and don't get BOTH spinning. Then it's as bad as it gets. It's also the point of this whole thread. I wanted to hear from guys who use them on the highway (NOT off road) about how much problem they have with both sides spinning out.
Posted By: 358Norma_fan Re: Limited slip question - 01/15/13
Originally Posted by Take_a_knee
Originally Posted by 358Norma_fan
.
for an on road truck, Detroit locker but an off road rig you can't beat an ARB air locker.


This is bass-ackwards. That Detroit locking and unlocking will spin your ass out on an icy curve in an instant. The open diff (unlocked ARB), is just that OPEN, nothing banging and popping and unlocking.


Whatever, I only drive on snow and ice for 7 months out of the year, what do I know?
Posted By: EZEARL Re: Limited slip question - 01/15/13
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Quote
Having an centersection that changes drive force from a spinning wheel to a non-spinning wheel is as good as it gets.
...as long as you keep of the throttle and don't get BOTH spinning. Then it's as bad as it gets. It's also the point of this whole thread. I wanted to hear from guys who use them on the highway (NOT off road) about how much problem they have with both sides spinning out.


Limited slip diffs have been around forever. I'll bet more people have driven vehicles that didn't know it was equipped with one than people that did. As I said in an earlier post,you really don't know what it's like to have a limited slip until you've driven a vehicle w/o one. Even my wife says she doesn't like not having one in our Cherokee. They're that good.

How does limited slip work?
Clutch packs inside the differential create additional resistance. This resistance is always present. It is called preload. So, whenever one side wants to start rotating faster than the other, this resistance (preload), in addition to the traction present at the wheel has to be overcome before a tire can spin.
Traction and preload have to be high enough to keep tires from spinning but low enough to still allow tires to rotate at different speeds in a turn. Since the preload has to be kept low enough to allow safe cornering the slowing effect on wheels that want to spin is marginal. It works in easy off-road conditions and on mildly slippery roads. For serious off-road use and very slippery roads (snow, ice) limited slip is not powerful enough. It limits slip but it does not prevent it completely
Posted By: ClarkEMyers Re: Limited slip question - 01/15/13
Looks to me like some people are talking past each other here. Maybe not and everybody but me knows when a clutch type posi is meant and when a locker is meant.

My own experience is that a clutch type posi is highly desirable for general use and a locker is highly desirable for specific needs. I had an early Bronco ( Spring production with a newly available 289) with a clutch type posi front and rear and never had a problem - despite warning of a slip steer effect in front I didn't see it. Drove that Bronco from Florida beaches to North Idaho with no traction control issues. I did see times on a soft surface throwing roostertails from all four corners and sliding sideways but all the wheels were driving. Compare that with the long ago very early full time 4X4 GMC with an open differential at each axle and open differential in the middle - jack one wheel up and those things wouldn't drive off the jack. If I haven't made myself clear under no circumstances would I prefer an open differential including glare ice and black ice - assuming good tires and all the rest of it. I did have an F250 highboy 4X4 that would bring the back around at the slightest provocation but that's another story of weight distribution and wheels and especially hard cross bar type tires.

Again a modern traction control system is all around better than any of the old systems but who wants to take a fancy new Audi or Benz up a logging road in deep snow - and it's imperative to have clearance for good chains but that's another issue.
Posted By: fish head Re: Limited slip question - 01/15/13
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Quote
Having an centersection that changes drive force from a spinning wheel to a non-spinning wheel is as good as it gets.
...as long as you keep of the throttle and don't get BOTH spinning. Then it's as bad as it gets. It's also the point of this whole thread. I wanted to hear from guys who use them on the highway (NOT off road) about how much problem they have with both sides spinning out.


With a factory installed limited slip or a GM locking dif they will spin both tires going around corners and want to swap ends ... if you're in 2WD and only if you're not careful. This is more prevalent in sharp corners at low speeds rather than highway speeds on gentler corners.

As soon as you put into 4WD it becomes a non issue. Having one front wheel helping pull you through a corner reduces the tendency for the rear end to slide out at any speed. Bottom line, a limited slip rear end is very well behaved on slick roads when you're in 4WD. 2WD is an entirely different beast and if the roads are slick use 4WD. Problem solved.

Posted By: WyoCowboy Re: Limited slip question - 01/15/13
I have a Japanese mini truck, the rear diff is open unless in 4wd, when you engage 4WD it locks the axles, the little truck is unstoppable in the snow, a little interesting on ice but totally manageable, unfortunately their is not a lot of droop in the suspension so on rocks in low range it is real easy to crawl yourself over on to your side, fortunately the little truck weighs 1100 lbs and can be put right with a come-a-long in short order.
I was wondering how you were liking that outfit Wyo.

Overall you dig?
Posted By: SeanD Re: Limited slip question - 01/15/13
Originally Posted by fish head
I should have added this. The absolute worst vehicles I've ever driven in snowy conditions were all rear wheel/open dif/one wheel drive.


I have swapped ends a few times on the highway in a LS rear diff rig always on black ice or freezing rain conditions. Also saw my dad kick the rear out and slide backwards of a gravel fs road due to both tires locking up and lack of any lateral traction. But that was off highway. My current rig is a LS tacoma and its very good in ice and snow, but i run studded snow tires after wrecking my last tacoma on black ice. Tires make more of a difference than anything.

An open diff rear is not one wheel drive. Its either two wheel drive or zero wheel drive. If you have traction both tires put equal power to the ground. If you break one free neither tire puts power to the ground so its zero wheel drive

In my opinion there is zero advantage to a LS diff on highway in slippery conditions. More likely to lose control especially going around a corner if you have your foot on the gas. Off highway they definitely have some advantages
Posted By: fish head Re: Limited slip question - 01/15/13
Originally Posted by SeanD


An open diff rear is not one wheel drive. Its either two wheel drive or zero wheel drive. If you have traction both tires put equal power to the ground. If you break one free neither tire puts power to the ground so its zero wheel drive




Sorry, but you're incorrect. Get stuck with an open dif and see how may tires turn. I guarantee you it won't be two or zero.

Or ...

Do a burn out with an open dif and see many tracks it leaves.
Posted By: JohnnyLoco Re: Limited slip question - 01/15/13
Sir,

If you are going to travel in ice & snow often you need to get an all wheel drive. You come to realize that most places we drive have some sort of road base.

You can choose to have a full electronic locker on the front and rear axles like I've used on conventional solid axle off road vehicles like my jeeps or trucks but they would never get me to the same hike, hunting, or ski-slope locations a damn suburu or (new type) Landrover would do.

I now own a Land Rover for such purpose and it has no equal. Older Land Rovers have solid axles and they suck too.

Eventhough I had fully locked and cocked vehicles, the detroit trutrac is a better option for road use. I had these front and rear on some four wheel drives and the did pretty darn good and you can learn to manipulate their traction using the emergency brake trick that works small miracles.

You have to remember unless the solid axle 4x4 vehicle comes from the factory with lockers like some toyotas, its only a two wheel drive. One front, one rear.

Tires are a waste of money you soon learn when you slide off the road in your locked jeep with studded mud tires while a subaru drives right on by. All wheel drive.

http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/Products...tiveAftermarket/Differentials/PCT_221471

Let me leave you with this. Ice is a liability with any traction system and the lability increases with speed and gravity.
Originally Posted by JohnnyLoco
Sir,

If you are going to travel in ice & snow often you need to get an all wheel drive. You come to realize that most places we drive have some sort of road base.

You can choose to have a full electronic locker on the front and rear axles like I've used on conventional solid axle off road vehicles like my jeeps or trucks but they would never get me to the same hike, hunting, or ski-slope locations a damn suburu or (new type) Landrover would do.

I now own a Land Rover for such purpose and it has no equal. Older Land Rovers have solid axles and they suck too.

Eventhough I had fully locked and cocked vehicles, the detroit trutrac is a better option for road use. I had these front and rear on some four wheel drives and the did pretty darn good and you can learn to manipulate their traction using the emergency brake trick that works small miracles.

You have to remember unless the solid axle 4x4 vehicle comes from the factory with lockers like some toyotas, its only a two wheel drive. One front, one rear.Tires are a waste of money you soon learn when you slide off the road in your locked jeep with studded mud tires while a subaru drives right on by. All wheel drive.

http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/Products...tiveAftermarket/Differentials/PCT_221471

Let me leave you with this. Ice is a liability with any traction system and the lability increases with speed and gravity.


And at one model of truck from Dodge. grin
Posted By: Pete E Re: Limited slip question - 01/15/13
Originally Posted by EZEARL
How does limited slip work?
Clutch packs inside the differential create additional resistance. This resistance is always present. It is called preload. So, whenever one side wants to start rotating faster than the other, this resistance (preload), in addition to the traction present at the wheel has to be overcome before a tire can spin.
Traction and preload have to be high enough to keep tires from spinning but low enough to still allow tires to rotate at different speeds in a turn. Since the preload has to be kept low enough to allow safe cornering the slowing effect on wheels that want to spin is marginal. It works in easy off-road conditions and on mildly slippery roads. For serious off-road use and very slippery roads (snow, ice) limited slip is not powerful enough. It limits slip but it does not prevent it completely


So I believe that a typical factory installed limited slip is in fact different to a Detroit Locker/ Lockright The Detroit Locker and the Lockright are perhaps better thought of as automatic locking diff's in that they lock and unlock without driver imput.

If that is correct, I suspect that in icy road condition, they may behave differently to true limited slip diffs as you've described?
Posted By: SeanD Re: Limited slip question - 01/15/13
Originally Posted by fish head
Originally Posted by SeanD


An open diff rear is not one wheel drive. Its either two wheel drive or zero wheel drive. If you have traction both tires put equal power to the ground. If you break one free neither tire puts power to the ground so its zero wheel drive




Sorry, but you're incorrect. Get stuck with an open dif and see how may tires turn. I guarantee you it won't be two or zero.

Or ...

Do a burn out with an open dif and see many tracks it leaves.


No, you are incorrect again. I am well aware that in an open differential when one tire loses traction it spins, and you dont go anywhere.

You are confusing yourself by seeing that one tire spin. One tire spinning with no traction does not equal power to the ground and does not equal one wheel drive. An open differential applies essentially equal power to the ground through both tires. Either both tires apply power to the ground or neither do. If one tire spins due to loss of traction, neither tire is putting power to the ground and that equals zero drive.
Posted By: fish head Re: Limited slip question - 01/15/13
Well ...

We'll just have to agree to disagree. smile




Although, I'm still trying to wrap my head around zero wheel drive during a one wheel burn out that somehow makes the car go forward. Is that half wheel drive?

I'm confused. crazy
Posted By: EZEARL Re: Limited slip question - 01/15/13

Lockers definitely behave differently but nothing one can't get use to. You control the locking and unlocking of the automatic lockers with the throttle. For instance if you let off the throttle when going into and thru a turn the rear unlocks and stays unlocked until you rethrottle. Or making a turn say from a side street you'd not use alot of throttle thereby limiting the amount torque to the axles. Sounds more complicated than it is.

Honestly I'd be completely satisfied with an aftermarket limited slip but cost is a factor. If it wasn't I might as well go with one of the better automatic lockers or better yet an on-command locker. All three types require the disassembly of the carrier requiring the ring and pinion gears to be set up again. More than likely I'll try one of the so called "lunchbox lockers" that in most cases don't require carrier removal so I can install myself.

http://www.cherokeeforum.com/f51/how-install-lunchbox-locker-lots-pics-67601/

Posted By: SeanD Re: Limited slip question - 01/15/13
With an open differential, both tires put the same (or essentially the same) power to the ground in all scenarios. The tire with the least traction is the limiting factor.

So if one tire is spinning and one is not and the rig is inching forward, both are acutally putting a small amount of power (essentially equal) to the ground.

If you think about it, its pretty easy to understand. If one wheel is completly off the ground, neither tire moves the rig forward. If one wheel has only a tiny bit of traction like during a burnout, both tires aplly power the ground to move the rig foward, the amount of power put to the ground is limited by the traction of the tire thats spinning since it has the least traction (and on an open diff its usually on the side with less vertical force due to the rotation of the driveline and weight distribution). Increase the traction and increase the power to the ground.

Posted By: EZEARL Re: Limited slip question - 01/15/13

Yep. All the rotational energy goes to the side with the least resistance. Hence your one wheel burn out.
Posted By: toad Re: Limited slip question - 01/15/13
cool diff vid

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=K4JhruinbWc[/video]
Posted By: EZEARL Re: Limited slip question - 01/15/13

+1 So simple even a caveman can understand it.
Posted By: Pete E Re: Limited slip question - 01/15/13
Originally Posted by EZEARL

Lockers definitely behave differently but nothing one can't get use to. You control the locking and unlocking of the automatic lockers with the throttle. For instance if you let off the throttle when going into and thru a turn the rear unlocks and stays unlocked until you rethrottle. Or making a turn say from a side street you'd not use alot of throttle thereby limiting the amount torque to the axles. Sounds more complicated than it is.

Honestly I'd be completely satisfied with an aftermarket limited slip but cost is a factor. If it wasn't I might as well go with one of the better automatic lockers or better yet an on-command locker. All three types require the disassembly of the carrier requiring the ring and pinion gears to be set up again. More than likely I'll try one of the so called "lunchbox lockers" that in most cases don't require carrier removal so I can install myself.

http://www.cherokeeforum.com/f51/how-install-lunchbox-locker-lots-pics-67601/


I appreciate what your saying and all I was try to get to is that on this thread three different types of diff are being referred to:

1) Limited Slip
2) Automatic locker
3) Driver selectable locker..

I think some folks were equating a limited slip diff to an automatic locker..they are not the same hence may behave differently on an icy road....

I've not come across the lunch box style before; certainly seems to be an easier installation..

regards,

Peter
Posted By: Pete E Re: Limited slip question - 01/15/13
Originally Posted by EZEARL

Yep. All the rotational energy goes to the side with the least resistance. Hence your one wheel burn out.


Thats my understanding also..

You guys ever come across fiddle brakes? I've never had a 4x4 that used them, but they seemed to be popular on "competition" 4x4 rigs at one point functioning almost like a "poor mans locker"..

As I understand it, they were essential a hand brake on each half shaft so any wheel that was loosing traction could be manually braked (locked) to send the power to the other...

Regards,

Peter
Posted By: EZEARL Re: Limited slip question - 01/15/13
"I think some folks were equating a limited slip diff to an automatic locker.."
Yea,I believe your right.

As far as the "lunch box" lockers go their less expensive but not as strong. One nice thing is if you don't like it you just replace your spider gears.

I've never heard of fiddle brakes but I can appreciate the concept. I know that if your in a situation where you've completely lost traction with your open rear you can gently apply the brakes to HOPEFULLY get more torque applied to the wheel that's not spinning. Kind of a last resort before getting down and dirty.
Posted By: toad Re: Limited slip question - 01/15/13
most farm tractors have a brake for each rear wheel. but they also have a diff lock pedal, so no need to use brakes for traction.
Posted By: EZEARL Re: Limited slip question - 01/15/13

Basically the same as your tracked equipment.
Posted By: Pete E Re: Limited slip question - 01/15/13
Purely from a performance perspective, I wonder how people rate electronic traction control compared to a limited slip diff?

Its sad to say that factory fitted diff locks of any description are *almost* a thing of the past on modern 4x4's and it is seemingly being replaced by electronic traction control.

I have ridden in a friends Discovery so equipped over what I would term moderate off road conditions, and I was actually very impressed with it, although I have yet to see how it performs in serious mud or sand...
Posted By: Rock Chuck Re: Limited slip question - 01/15/13
Originally Posted by SeanD
Originally Posted by fish head
Originally Posted by SeanD


An open diff rear is not one wheel drive. Its either two wheel drive or zero wheel drive. If you have traction both tires put equal power to the ground. If you break one free neither tire puts power to the ground so its zero wheel drive




Sorry, but you're incorrect. Get stuck with an open dif and see how may tires turn. I guarantee you it won't be two or zero.

Or ...

Do a burn out with an open dif and see many tracks it leaves.


No, you are incorrect again. I am well aware that in an open differential when one tire loses traction it spins, and you dont go anywhere.

You are confusing yourself by seeing that one tire spin. One tire spinning with no traction does not equal power to the ground and does not equal one wheel drive. An open differential applies essentially equal power to the ground through both tires. Either both tires apply power to the ground or neither do. If one tire spins due to loss of traction, neither tire is putting power to the ground and that equals zero drive.
I agree with this. In a burnout with an open dif, 1 wheel is spinning - no traction, and the other is doing nothing - no traction because it isn't turning. The same thing happens on ice, just a lot easier. If one wheel spins, the other doesn't take over. It doesn't do anything. If one wheel with a LS dif spins, the other DOES take over.
Posted By: K1500 Re: Limited slip question - 01/16/13
Originally Posted by Pete E
Its sad to say that factory fitted diff locks of any description are *almost* a thing of the past on modern 4x4's and it is seemingly being replaced by electronic traction control..


Most Chevy 4x4's come factory equipped with the Eaton locking rear diff. Look for G80 on the options list in the glove box or window sticker. It IS a locker, according to Eaton.
Posted By: 458 Lott Re: Limited slip question - 01/16/13
Originally Posted by Pete E
Purely from a performance perspective, I wonder how people rate electronic traction control compared to a limited slip diff?


Depends on whose traction control you are talking about. Mercedes traction control is pretty impressive for on highway use. It cuts power and even will apply the breaks if you pitch the car sideways. I find it a bit annoying as I like the occasional drift. Or as my 16 y/o son says, it's no fun.
Posted By: ClarkEMyers Re: Limited slip question - 01/16/13
Used to be pretty common with dune buggy type vehicles based on the VW platform to have two hand brake levers. The OEM was a single handbrake lever between the seats pulling wires on both left and right rear wheels so add a second lever and have each lever pullings wires on one side only. Mostly after the success of the VW platform I think the same setup was used a lot in other vehicles but a step on the parking brake setup is harder to modify.

To repeat myself - folks are indeed talking past each other a little bit -- my own experience has been that I never wished I had open differentials, I've been happy with some more sophisticated devices and even with a clutch type posi in front as well as rear I've found clutch type posi to be better on the highway. For a truck full of wet garbage a Detroit Locker has many advantages.
Posted By: JohnnyLoco Re: Limited slip question - 01/16/13
The factor chevy "government" limited slip is not as good as a trutrac.

Leave the lunchbox lockers alone for road use. I had one break and thats the last time that will happen to me and they really suck on a short wheelbase vehicle.

I guess my question is how fast you plan on driving?
Posted By: WyoCowboy Re: Limited slip question - 01/16/13
Originally Posted by BillyGoatGruff
I was wondering how you were liking that outfit Wyo.

Overall you dig?


I love it when I kill it I will buy another, I drive around 100 miles a day in it and never had a problem, I pushed down an un-plowed road with about 18 in of snow today and never spun a tire. I'm getting about 40 MPG this winter, I did pull a 51 MPG tank this summer.
Originally Posted by WyoCowboy
Originally Posted by BillyGoatGruff
I was wondering how you were liking that outfit Wyo.

Overall you dig?


I love it when I kill it I will buy another, I drive around 100 miles a day in it and never had a problem, I pushed down an un-plowed road with about 18 in of snow today and never spun a tire. I'm getting about 40 MPG this winter, I did pull a 51 MPG tank this summer.


Thanks! Good to know, I may end up with one of those one of these days.
Posted By: tzone Re: Limited slip question - 01/16/13
Originally Posted by senior
. My new Ford has traction control which I have a love-hate relation with! It does a good job of controlling wheelspin but removes the fun factor when you want to step out the rear end.


You can shut it off. Push the button once and it turns off. Then HOLD the button for about 10 seconds and it REALLY shuts it off.
Posted By: senior Re: Limited slip question - 01/16/13
t-zone: isn't that what I said in an earlier post.

Originally Posted by senior

I don't know what year your Ford is but mine has a simple button on the centre console, you just push & hold till it the icon stops flashing in your instrument panel.
But I do agree you should have to push to engage instead of disengage.
I know in Chevy's and my Ram it doesn't turn off. Just interfere's less.
Posted By: Canazes9 Re: Limited slip question - 01/16/13
Originally Posted by BillyGoatGruff
I know in Chevy's and my Ram it doesn't turn off. Just interfere's less.


My Toyota has interferes less and interferes a lot less, but off doesn't really happen...

David
Posted By: tzone Re: Limited slip question - 01/16/13
Looks like it.
Posted By: 458 Lott Re: Limited slip question - 01/16/13
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
...for those with a lot of slick highway driving experience with one...
I know they'll get you going and keep you going, but how are they for icy highways? Will it break both rear wheels free and skid you more than an open diff? Can they be more of a liability than an asset on ice?


Getting back to the op, after 10 AK winters in an open diff truck, and now my 6th in a limited slip diff truck, there are two simple bits of advice. When the back ends starts sliding, get off the gas. If the roads are bad, put it in 4wd. I haven't found any downside with the limited slip, and with a high torque diesel engine I think it's a must as it's very easy to break the back end loose when you're pulling away from a stop.
Posted By: K1500 Re: Limited slip question - 01/16/13
Originally Posted by BillyGoatGruff
I know in Chevy's and my Ram it doesn't turn off. Just interfere's less.


In the Chevy you push once to disable TC. Push and hold to disable Stabilitrac. This turns it all the way off. I have no idea about the Ram.
It doesn't turn it all the way off. You can still feel it trying to interfere.

In my experience only of course.
Posted By: JohnnyLoco Re: Limited slip question - 01/16/13
TC will also wear your rear brakes faster and can get you run over when the engine stalls.

I've written chevy to plead for the default to be off

That press and hold never worked for mine and it ain't permanent. I can turn it off but it won't stay that way after the ignition has been turned off.
Posted By: Rock Chuck Re: Limited slip question - 01/16/13
Originally Posted by JohnnyLoco
TC will also wear your rear brakes faster and can get you run over when the engine stalls.

I've written chevy to plead for the default to be off

That press and hold never worked for mine and it ain't permanent. I can turn it off but it won't stay that way after the ignition has been turned off.
It'll be a cold day in hell when they do that. Someone in government has decided that TC is a good thing so you get it like it or not. It's like my garden tractor where the engine dies if I try to mow in reverse without changing the switch. Government knows best.
Posted By: 458 Lott Re: Limited slip question - 01/17/13
The majority of drivers are idiots, so having the TC default on makes sense.
Posted By: johntree Re: Limited slip question - 02/01/13
tru trac they last and they work
Posted By: Youper Re: Limited slip question - 02/03/13
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
...for those with a lot of slick highway driving experience with one...
I know they'll get you going and keep you going, but how are they for icy highways? Will it break both rear wheels free and skid you more than an open diff? Can they be more of a liability than an asset on ice?


The only problem I've had on the highway in ice and snow is when the automatic trans decides to downshift going up a snowy hill. That nearly caused me to end up in both of the ditches once. Locking out the overdrive prevents the problem.
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