It just struck me that someone might have a better suggestion than mine. I have a very close friend who is an outfitter/guide in Wyoming. Through a gunsmith/friend I just built for him a 338 Win Mag for elk. He called and asked what cartridge I would recommend for a second rifle which he could use for LONG RANGE shooting on coyotes and varmints in that size (I'm sure he WOULDN'T use it on the wolves around him but coyotes would be fair game,) as well as doubling in a pinch for elk. He is NOT a reloader but has access to friends (me and another outfitter friend,) who reload. The 338 Win Mag was recommended by me for this reason since factory ammo is available. He wants a fairly flat shooting rifle.

What cartridge would YOU recommend and why?

I've given him my suggestion which I'll pass on to you later.

easy..........25-06. A LONG range bomber for coyotes and will work well enough for elk.

Well, here is what I would suggest, its simple a .25-06. Light bullets for those Non Wolf Wolves( he is not kidding me, SSS, Shoot, Shove and Shut up for those of you in Rio Linda) Good 115 -120 gr Loads for Elk in a pinch. You could go with a 6.5 x 55 a cartridge that I really love, but here in the States its a handloader's proposition. I think the .25-06 would be about as good as it gets for what he wants to do, Shoot Elk and those other things in a pinch.

6.5x55 SE - 100 or less for varmints; 120-140 for dear/antelope; 140-160 for elk.

.25-06 for the reasons already mentioned.

There's a bunch of cartridges to fit that bill. 243, 250,257.25-06, 7mm-08, just to name a few.

25-06, 270...

I used a 7mm Rem Mag and 160g bullets for elk since 1982. Its remarkably efficient on elk. Used the elk loads to take more than a few coyotes and prairie dogs along the way - called the varmints "practice".

What's a .260 lacking? 95 v-maxes and 130 tsx's. Yer covered. Don

7mm mag ; .270

7mm of some sort. 120vmax and whatever he wants for elk.

Or the 257 wby.

Coyote, one of my elk hunting buddies is a rancher just north of Jellystone Park... in 1970 he started guiding for elk so decided he needed to replace the British 303 he was using! So, he went to the local pawn hoping to find a 280 Rem (good luck in 1970). Instead he managed to find a first year production M700 BDL in 7mm RM. It's been his only rifle since. That rifle has accounted for an untold number of elk, antelope, deer, coyotes and lately (and yes, legally) wolves. The rifle is always in his truck and if it's not there it's in a scabbard on a horse headed into the Absaroka Beartooth Wilderness. It looks like hell but is an honest rifle that maintains its zero. He uses a 160 Speer on everything.

Talk about a varmint and elk rifle... (grins).

Though I've not owned one, I recommended the 7 Rem Mag but had second thoughts after speaking to yet another Wyoming friend who recommended a 6-284, thus the reason for my post.

They have lots of coyotes in the area and I've seen some shots made at 700+ yards. Longest one shot drop I've seen was 960 yards with rifles mostly in the 6-284 and the 7 Rem Mag, and I know of one "one shot bang flop" at 1120 yards with the 6-284 using Berger target bullets. Seems that the area doesn't give you much opportunity for closer shots since most of their shooting is in large burn areas. On some varmints you actually require a large distance gap for many reasons. It just seemed to me that the 7 Mag had a much wider variety of factory ammo available plus a greater selection of bullets available than most other calibers in the event he got someone to reload for him. The cartridge is also a little less of a barrel burner than the smaller large case capacity calibers.

I never thought of the 25-06 and I'm uncertain of the availability of factory ammo for it.

Sure appreciate the thoughts expressed. Any holes in my thinking?

Bobski, the rancher up by my place north of Bozeman is another practical (and broke) cowboy. He guides for elk too and has used one rifle for a bit over twenty years... Ruger 77 in 25-06. The bulls he's killed are impressive and he's taken hundreds of yotes with it. He uses 100 grain Rem factory ammo. Around here 25-06 factory ammo can be had anywhere and if there's a better yote round I don't know what it is!

get a 270WSM and run the 130gr TSXs and never look back. HAPPY HUNTING

Or 110'S!

Couldn't go wrong with that either. In the end, a good yote rifle shoud definately have some barrel weight to it...

As an aside, here's the Yote/Elk rifle I'm putting together right now for a friend. Dober and I are going to wring it out to 1000 yards and hopefully smoke a few yotes as well... think 50 BMG will work? Grins...

Good god man!!! You will kill with the muzzle blast alone with that contraption:-)

Bobski, I think a 270 win is perfect for what you describe. Factory ammo can be had anywhere and 130�s at 3100 will reach out a touch a heck of a long way. 130 BT�s for yotes and 130 or 140 TSX�s for elk and you are good to go. My 270 is light, easy to shoot and scary accurate!!! Can�t go wrong in my opinion with that setup!!

Bobski: If he actually wants to keep the pelts, anything bigger than a 25 is worthless.

I cant think of anything better than a 264 Win Mag, surprise! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Speaking from my own experience, I've busted elk at 400 yards with it, complete pass throughs on shoulders using 140 NP's.
The elk were dead before they hit the ground. More than just a cartridge to use in a pinch for elk. It's legitimate.

Coyotes for long range using 95 grain Vmax's make it lethal beyond what most can hold. Even for the "biggest" of dogs.

A light recoiling magnum that takes performance to the full envelope. Flattest of the flattest.

It is a handloaders round.

2nd pick and probably more practicle would be the
270 WSM.

If your buddy was an avid reloader I'd say the .280AI is tailor made for such an application. Since he's not, I'd vote for the 7mm Remington/Weatherby or if he prefers a SA the 7Shamu/Whizzum.

Other good ones would be a .270, .280, or the venerable .30/06.

HBB

Hope all is well in your camp Bob!

I've been a long time nut case about hunting yotes, and have generally done allright with it.

My first thought would be use the 338 with some 180 and or 200 NBT's. I've done my share of yoten with my 340 and these 2 slugs.

Second thought would be to get a 25/06, plenty of very good ammo around for it.

If he didn't mind loading, and or having his bud load for it I am big time into the 6/06 mode. Years long back when I decided to get big into yotes I built a big 6 and have never regretted it. However I do enjoy the loading and I do enjoy doing things a bit different than the rest of the folk hence why I like the "catz".

If one has any intention of being fur friendly during the fur months then the 6/06 is a bit better than the 25/06 due to the 55 NBT.

However the 25/06 is pretty much the same and a whole lot easier to go get ammo for.

Lastly the 270 and or 7 RM would also make for one super rig as well.

Just a thought or two, let us know when you're gonna get back to this area.

Mark D

One man, one gun, for all and IMO, a 338 or a 300 win. mag. The later will push a 180 grain pill at 3000' and so will the former. A varmit doesn't know the difference b/t getting killed at 2700 fps or 3400....nor does any other animal !

THE ONE GUN GUY LEARNS HOW HIS RIFLE SHOOTS AT ALL DISTANCES WITH ONE PILL si. DON'T EVER BET AGAINST HIM !! That breed is a lost breed because we have 'disposable income'......thank God. Often I've thought how unnecessary it REALLY is today to have so many guns. I can't believe I said that.

"THE ONE GUN GUY LEARNS HOW HIS RIFLE SHOOTS AT ALL DISTANCES WITH ONE PILL si. DON'T EVER BET AGAINST HIM !! That breed is a lost breed because we have 'disposable income'......thank God. Often I've thought how unnecessary it REALLY is today to have so many guns. I can't believe I said that. "



You know, I bought into this thinking for a number of years and then I came to the realization that ....

"Beware of the multi-gun man who can shoot multiple bullets just as good as the one gun/bullet guy.

A new breed and better.


Makes for a whole lot more fun and versitility.

Huh???? Caliber has nothing to do with it; it depends on bullet construction and speed. A fast 25 will make a hell of a bigger mess of the pelt (on a yote) than a 338 win mag for example. On a yote you will have a .338 sized hole going in and a .338 sized hole going out if you are using hunting bullets, whereas with a 25-06 shooting BTs, for example, you will have a 25 caliber hole going in a fist sized hole going out.

I shot a pile of roe deer (about the size of a yote) in Scotland using 338-06, 222 and 243 and guess which one did the least amount of pelt damage������the 338-06. The triple duce and the 243 put baseball sized holes in em. Not sure I agree with your comment that anything bigger than 25 is worthless if you want to keep the pelt.

Minimal pelt damge with the bigger guns is going to entirely depend on fairly lucky hits .

Shot my first yote with a 7 mag and 120 gr hollowpoints. Hit him square in the fanny and you would have had to part hairs to figure out what did him in..........yet I'm bettin a broadside shot with that load would tear up things for sure...

Your last two sentences says it all!!!

The reason you had no pelt damage with your 7mm mag and 120 grain hollow points is because the bullet entered and completely disintegrated inside the animal because it was a lengthwise hit. Had you hit it broadside, as you say, you probably would have blown him in half.

My experience with small thinned skinned game is that larger guns using hunting projectiles tend to barely even open up on say a coyote. Therefore, they don�t make much of a mess of the animal and the pelt because you don�t get the violent expansion you see with fragile high-speed projectiles. A .257 Roy shooting a BT will make a hell of a bigger mess than a 338 shooting a 225 partition on a coyote. Like I said, when I shot roe deer with a 338-06 I got a 338 sized hole exiting every time. With the triple duce and 243 I had massive exit wounds and big flowering entrance wounds.

The original comment was that anything larger than a 25 caliber is all but worthless on a coyote if you want to save the pelt. I say that is total crap. I would be willing to bet dollars to donuts that a 375 H&H shooting 270 grain partitions will put a perfect 375 diameter hole in a coyote, whereas a 257 Weatherby with a hollow point or a BT will turn a Coyote inside out. Hell, I�ve shot coyotes with a 30-06 with 180 and I have shot em with my 220 swift and I can tell you which one does less pelt damage��the 30-06 with 180 partitions�..all day long

Your last two sentences says it all!!!

The reason you had no pelt damage with your 7mm mag and 120 grain hollow points is because the bullet entered and completely disintegrated inside the animal because it was a lengthwise hit. Had you hit it broadside, as you say, you probably would have blown him in half.

My experience with small thinned skinned game is that larger guns using hunting projectiles tend to barely even open up on say a coyote. Therefore, they don�t make much of a mess of the animal and the pelt because you don�t get the violent expansion you see with fragile high-speed projectiles. A .257 Roy shooting a BT will make a hell of a bigger mess than a 338 shooting a 225 partition on a coyote. Like I said, when I shot roe deer with a 338-06 I got a 338 sized hole exiting every time. With the triple duce and 243 I had massive exit wounds and big flowering entrance wounds.

The original comment was that anything larger than a 25 caliber is all but worthless on a coyote if you want to save the pelt. I say that is total crap. I would be willing to bet dollars to donuts that a 375 H&H shooting 270 grain partitions will put a perfect 375 diameter hole in a coyote, whereas a 257 Weatherby with a hollow point or a BT will turn a Coyote inside out. Hell, I�ve shot coyotes with a 30-06 with 180 and I have shot em with my 220 swift and I can tell you which one does less pelt damage��the 30-06 with 180 partitions�..all day long

308 Win.

BMT

Personally, I'd be cautious about depending upon others to reload for me. Maybe a next door neighbor or something, but depending upon the proximity, personalities, schedules, etc, I wouldn't want my ammo supply to depend upon somene elses convenience.

When I was in my late teens and learning about guns and shooting (among other things) my mentor lived about 2 miles away. His work schedule, family commitments, my schedules etc were difficult to mesh. As a result, when I decided to go shooting on a whim and he wasn't going, it was sometimes difficult to hook up and do up some loads.

So, while many good cartridge and bullet suggestions have been made, a reloading only proposition may not be completely practical for the guy. I'd suggest either 25-06 or 270 and probably lean tward the 270 due to availability.

Bob--
I thought you were joking when you started this thread (kind of like asking for a dove&goose load). But, given that you are not, I would have to join the 25-06 crowd. The round is readily available in many stores, with a 100 gr bullet it will be serious long range coyote death, and with a premium 120 gr bullet it will suffice as a backup elk rig.

I'm in the 270 crowd. 140TSX leaves a quarter-to-fifty cent piece sized exit wound inside of 200yds, and less further out. That's catching spine and/or front shoulders.

Can you shoot something at 700 yards, and try to be fur friendly? I would pick the best gun for elk hunting, in my case .300 win mag, and load it up with 165, or 180 grain pills, and see what happens.

None of the sub-30s are suitable for elk. The .308 is about the only choice.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Your joking right?

Really?

"None of the sub-30s are suitable for elk. The .308 is about the only choice."

Spoken by someone who has never killed one let alone even hunted one.

Didn't we just go thru this with you, swamper? You gotta get out more. Go elk hunting once........

Glad I was told that. I was just about to retire the .338 for a 7mm08. Aw, what the heck, I am going to see just what a Kimber Montana in 7mm08 can to do a bull elks shoulders.

I sure am glad to learn that. Was just about ready to retire the .338 for a Kimber 7mm08. What the heck, I want to know what that Kimber will do to a bulls shoulder...

Expertise pulled right outa thin air... priceless.

I may have to get a 7-08 and go kill a bull now "just because"... (grins).

I might go get a 257 bob, just cus!!! There is a lot of hot air in cyberspce!!!

On another note, you got me all horned up for a 308 you bastid:-)

Sorry... NOT <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />!

I am feeling the need to get myself an x-mas gift and I am thinking 308 in little sky or rem ti. I blame you 100%!!!

well it was that or the 308 and it was your hot air that got me looking in the first place. ;

Swamper you ever been in a Turkish prison....................Do you like Gladiator movies......................

Might have to vote for the 708 myself. Course, we know it won't kill elk either...............grin

Poot, the Kimber Little Sky in 308 is my next... love the round. Got a Leupy 2-7x33 LR waiting. Need some Talleys and I'm good to go (it's for my son to use... right <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />).

7-08 is totally useless.........it will bounce off an elk every time!! Anything below a 338 is foolish at best <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Elk deserve better, please get a suitable caliber. The .308 Winchester is probably my favorite cartridge but it's the lightest thing I'd consider on elk. The 7mm-08 is no better than the .243. Neither are elk cartridges.

Swampy please enlighten us all... how many elk have you killed?

You�re a friggin genius!!!!!

Dear, look at this great rifle I got our eldest son for Christmas. It will be his first elk rifle��..he will cherish it forever!!!!!!

Hell, that is almost too good!!!!

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You�re right, what in the hell has gotten into me. A 7-08 is a pop gun and those majestic elk deserve far better. Thanks for setting me straight. I have never seen an elk��..are they really that big???

Yup, They are THAT big, duh.....And their majestical-ness shrugs sub 30's like raindrops. Nuthing else works. Period.

Sorry Bobski, we kind of took this one down a rat hole. My vote is for the 270 win!!!!

As Yogi Berra said, "its dejavu all over again." Once more Swampman, the .243, 7/08, and .308 are all based on the same parent case .024 to .065 difference in bullet diameter just ain't gonna matter that much.

Put a good bullet (i.e. TSX, Partition, Northfork, etc.) from any of these calibers in the right spot and the only problem you'll have is skinning an elk and toting the meat home.

If nothing else at least Swampman is consistent... Consistently Stoopid <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

HBB

Never shot an elk, but the 25-06 and 7 Rem Mag are fine long range varmint killers. Have used both on prairie dogs and coyotes.

I recomend he use a 416 Rigby for Elk, then his 338 will be a flat shooting varmit round in relative terms.

I know a lot of folk's that use a 25 06 and it dose a fine job on elk. and normal dosen't blow the coyotes up to bad ( I hate to sew)

Once again the pee wee calibers aren't enough. The elk just get sick and die a horrible slow death. Use enough gun.

Okay Swampman you have chastised us repeatedly for not using enough gun for elk and other such bulletproof critters, now how about telling us what calibers we should be using.

And be sure to elaborate as much as possible on your field experience with said guns as well as their multi-role potential as a varminter, etc. I look forward to the enlightenment drawn from you vast storehouse of ballistic knowledge.

HBB

I'd suggest reading the following.

Big Game Rifles and Cartridges (1936) Elmer Keith

There really isn't a suitable cartridge for both, but I would consider the .308 Winchester the very min. for bulls. Smaller cows and calfs can be taken with the pee shooters but one has to be willing to pass on mature bulls. Elmer will tell you what you need to know about elk and other big game. Them tiny bullets won't shoot through a shoulder blade or break, an animal down so you can find it.

I'd suggest reading the following.

Big Game Rifles and Cartridges (1936) Elmer Keith

There really isn't a suitable cartridge for both, but I would consider the .308 Winchester the very min. for bulls. Smaller cows and calfs can be taken with the pee shooters but one has to be willing to pass on mature bulls. Elmer will tell you what you need to know about elk and other big game. Them tiny bullets won't shoot through a shoulder blade or break, an animal down so you can find it.

I've read that volume and most of everything else Elmer wrote on rifles. And it was very good information for the time.

However, bullet designs have changed considerably since then.

A 250 - 400 grain bullet is no longer required to get to an elk's vitals.

But, instead of talking in terms of books or generalities how about your elucidating field experiences? Tell us about the "failures" of the "pee" shooters on elk you have seen/experienced.

HBB

Swampman-I gotta tell say, I've found in life that if I have an opinion worthy of sharing, it is always out of something that I actually experienced personally.

You talk a fair bit about elk rounds and have opinions on it, people have asked you to share your experiences and want to now how you came to form them.

Honestly bud, I'd either share your personal experiences so that folks can see where you're coming from and or if you don't have any actual experience with this topic just sit back, chill and listen. If you have a theory pose it as such, if it is actual learned experience share it as well.

You pretty much sound like you're well read on the subject ( Elmer style school), but it certainly does appear that you have an area of opportunity in actual getting out there and hunting, shooting, packing elk.

If I am wrong please humor me and tell us about your time in the hunt for elk.

Many thanks and make it your best day!

Mark D

IMO I think the 270WSM would be a good choice. Shoot 110gr V-Max on varmint and 140gr TSX on Elk.

Bobski, what was you're suggestion?

I mentioned it up in one of my earlier posts, I suggested a 7mm Rem Mag and I was pretty conclusive to my friend when I suggested it. When asked opinions like this I usually mention two or three alternatives but I'm basically a larger caliber guy and I'm pretty hung up on 338's (like Mark is on the 7's,) and I have not a lot of experience with the rounds under 30 caliber for elk which is the reason for seeking other points of view.

I have seen many bang flops on elk with small calibers including 6/284, 7 Rem Mag and 270, and a couple of those at ranges waaaay out there by some long range hunters, but I like the sure bang flops at any range and I personally try to hold my shots, even in Wyoming and Montana, to under 300 yards.

Though my friend is young, he is an outfitter and has been a guide for years so he's seen results. He's just not a firearms person. He was just looking for an educated opinion from me. He had a suggestion by a very close friend of ours in Wyoming who's been a guide for near 20 years, and that was for a 6/284 (we both saw one of those bang flops out near 1000 yards with that cartridge.) I personally prefer 338's for elk, not that the smaller calibers aren't effective, it's just that I like bang flops at ANY range and the longer the range of a shot, the more chance for a marginal hit that results at best in a long tracking job or at worst, wounded animals. I gave up on even a 300 Win Mag years ago when I put three successive shots at 300 yards, right where I intended (you could cover the shots with one hand,) and the elk didn't drop for a couple of minutes. Never took a step and never looked up, but it was unnerving to say the least. 338's or larger for me from then on and since then I've never had any of 18 or so elk take a step after the shot with any 338.

No experience at all with a 25-'06 or the 270 but the barrel burners like the 264 Win Mag and the 6/284 don't make a lot of sense for this guy out in the sticks where barrel replacement isn't easy. Same can be said for the 7 STW all with which I have experience. Muzzle blast and noise is also a factor for reasons some of you have guessed. What I'm going to do is recommend 3 but stick with my view on the 7mm because of great bullet availability, better than most others.

Thanks a bunch guys!

And Mark, Brad, we've never talked about skiing. If either of you ski I'll see you up there this winter. Bridger Bowl is a helluva good little ski area, only problem they don't allow "foreigners" like me to hike up to the good stuff above the lifts without a "local" and the lift serviced area is pretty mediocre. Care to be a ski guide for me? In that case you'll see me this winter, if not, next summer if I'm still able!!

Bobski-let us know when you're coming and we'll buy you lunch.

Mark D and also speaking for Brads pockeet book....grins

On the other hand... Anything over a .30 cal would make a varmint "too dead.." <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Swamp, Tell me where I can repent for shooting all those elk with the 243, various 6.5s and the like with out loosing a one. Crying and atrociously upset here.

If you read the book, then you know the pea shooters are too small for elk. If you are unsportsmanlike enough to use them, then what point would there be in talking further? Do you normally shoot them at night too?

Folks,
Good grief you'd think he was quoting /citing the Bible not a gunwriter.

As I suspected, methinks we have hooked us a TROLL

DFTFT anymore (And I'm guilty of doing it too .) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

HBB

Could not have said it better myself....

Just a little behind the times but at least he's being polite about it...

I think he should go read the .223AI thread.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

GW

I would say its a high possibility the Swampguy is trolling for a hookup.

From his posts in this thread, its obvious he knows nothing about killing elk, but that doesn't stop him from commenting on the subject.

Swampthingy,
Please post YOUR elk hunting experiences.........

What is the best Semi truck for Formula 1 racing?

There is no Elk cartridge that isn't a really poor choice as a varmit cartridge. But, practicing with your big game round is a great idea if you don't shoot so much that you develop a flinch.

Match trajactories.

I use a 300 Weatherby for Elk and a 220 Swift for varmits.

Using the right bullet weights the trajectories can be fairly close, at least close enogh to get you onto an elk even if you miss the occasional Belding's Ground Squirel.

Swampman1 -

While I don't care for .243's for elk because even the heaviest bullets are too light for my tastes, once you get a .257 Roberts and a good 115g TSX or 120g A-Frame you're getting into a fairly reliable elk rifle. Step up to the 6.5, .270, 7mm-08 or 7x57 and a 140-150g and the fault will be with the shooter, not the cartridge. Then there's the various 7mm Mags.

My first choice for elk was a 7mm Rem Mag and 160's back in '82. Used it almost every year since and it has yet to disappoint me. A couple years ago I picked up a .300 Win Mag which I used with a 180g bullet to take an elk a few weeks back. Can't see where the .300WM did anything the 7mm didn't do just as well.

If you had any experience with elk, you would know the .270 Win, 7mm-08 and 7x57 are widely used to good effect.

I won't even use the .270 Win or 7mm-08 on deer (or anything I plan on recovering.) I have no use for either caliber.

swampman 1 posted before that he has never hunted elk, so odds are good that most off us have ate more elk than he has ever seen alive.

troooooool

also so I know a good number of the guys that work for Game and Fish. It seems that most of them use 30 06 or smaller.

I haven't hunted elk yet either...

But I'm all a-twitter with anticipation to find out why a .308 Winchester with 150s or 180s is that much better of an elk round than a 7 Rem. Mag., 7 RUM, or 7 STW firing 160s or 175s...

Where's swampman at? I figured he'd have chimed in by now.

HBB

Any 270 (Win, WSM, Wby) is right at home in this duel role. The Wby is excellent on large game.

He's most likey reading about what to do when he takes his first elk hunt, I hear the F&S has a article this month...


Mark D

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

HBB

If you're shooting yotes as a varmint, do you really care about the pelts? Use the yotes as "practice" for the big game rifle.

Codicil: I have never shot an elk.

I have shot lots of moose, however, and it does NOT take a howitzer to put a moose in the freezer. A few years back my wife capped a nice cow with her 243. She now has a 30-06, but the 243 did a great job. Moose dropped dead in about 30 feet - no lungs left.

We don't get "yotes" here that much, but we get a lot of grouse of one sort or the other. My 300WinMag works good for knocking the heads off grouse out to about 35 or 40 yards. A little expensive with TSX bullets though. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Codicil: I never shot a yote, either. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jack O'Connor's WIFE killed more elk than any poster in this forum, and SHE did it with a .270. Jack used it for elk, deer, sheep, coyotes, and anything else that moved, and he did it with greater success than you or I could ever hope to have. Whenever another trendy caliber was introduced into the marketplace Jack would simply take his .270 out and kill another exceptional animal, then come home and write about it in Outdoor Life.

If you like following the latest fad go ahead and get one of those "Yuppie" guns - they come in all sizes and flavors now including 7 mag, .280, .264, and .25-06 (especially the .25-06). I'm sure you'll be impressed with the knowledge that you're sending a bullet out there really really fast and, better yet, you'll really be impressed hearing your new age gun go "bang".

However, if you want to kill anything that moves at whatever distance with one gun then do what Jack did - take the gun you already own and get out in the woods.

You sure she didn't use a 7x57 most of the time, except for when she was smackin tiger in India with a 375 ouchnouch, and when she was if Africa knocking everything she could find on its but with an 06.
I coulda swore ol Jack wrote about the 338 win, and several of the weatherby's, and a whole bunch of other stuff. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
But then I've only killed 30 some elk so , I might not be up to speed all that much. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good friend of mine uses a pre-64 Model 70 Westerner (.264 Win Mag) for everything from coyotes to large bull elk. He shoots a hot load with 125 grain partitions and is deadly with it. For prairie dogs, though, he shoots a .223...

Ranch 13 - you're right Jack did write about the .338 win - one of my favorites. Great gun for shooting cross-canyon in extreme situations. Jack also wrote about the .275 H&H a lot - one of the influential factors behind Remington developing the 7 mag and leveraging market share away from the establishment.

7x57? Great gun and a lot of fun to boot. Was fun to build from scratch when surplus mil actions were everywhere. Seems the 7mm lovers have abandoned the 7x57 in favor of new age magnum offerings or ones that fit shorter actions.

I'm from the old school aka Jack O'Connor, Elmer Keith etc. The new 7mm's, 30 cal mags, and .25-ought-somethings introduced over the last 40-50 years have offered very little advantages. They're merely attempts to introduce new rifles into the marketplace and shouldn't be confused with revolutionary technological advancements. It's the same old strategy rifle manufacturers have used for 100 years - cram a smaller bullet into an existing case and see how much faster and flatter it shoots. Then market the ballistic "superiority" and sell a lot of rifles.

The group I elk hunted with for years has since fallen apart - we're in our 50's and 60's now. The oldest guy in our group is the one who killed the biggest baddest elk years ago using a plain old .30-06 Remington cornshucker jam-matic. He was on his way back to camp but he knew the animals, he knew his gun and he knew how to hunt with every step he took. The rest of us young punks were too busy admiring our new age magnum rifles and jacking with our tech toys and camo gear to notice any animals that day.

If I had to answer the original question of "one gun" for elk and varmits it would be the .270. IMHO it's probably the best balanced long range cartridge. I love the .338 for hunting elk and bigger game but I've had more fun hunting elk with a .270 using Jack's recipe of a 130 gn nosler partition backed by 60 gn of H4831.

Frankly, I beleive the 338 Winchester Magnum is just dandy for varmints, a solid body hit just anchors them. And..... it's not too bad for elk either!

I once shot a grouse with a 338 Win. Mag.
I didn't get away...(grin)
Virgil B.

Guys the 25-06 w/a 115gr TSX will take care of varmits way out yonder at 3150fps and will shoot plum throgh the lungs of a bull elk.Matter of fact ...he may start leaving the big gun in the scabbard. powdr

The 338 that he already has. What better way to get to know your gun than constant practice with coyotes?

Oh, I like these threads. After much use of one for everything from prairie dogs to elk, if I were limited to one centerfire rifle it would unquestionable be the 7 RM. All 3 I have owned were quite accurate, but the best, a lightly customized Ruger shot 168 gr Matchkings into .4 - 3 shot groups at 100. Shooting 160 gr. Partitions it still shot MOA. I shot piles of PD's with that rifle, and a number of elk too.

JOC's wife Eleanor used a 7X57 for nearly ALL of the hunts she went on around the world....

For me I would just get an elk rifle and use it on varmits too...

If it'll work on elk...I'm thinking it will work on varmits too. Not at easy going the other way...

Amen to what coyote hunter said. Out here in the West we always have the dammed wind to contend with, and the 160 grain partition with its superb ballistic coefficient is murder on both elk and long range varmits.

+1

My Dad used his 25-06 to whack his elk. In fact I'm eating a tenderloin sandwich as I type this response. The Nosler Partition bullet worked fined...but he did practiced shooting at 200 yds for 4 months before the hunt. Its bullet placement, not bullet size that matters for the most part.

Hey bobski,the talk about the outfitter that recomends a 6x284. Sounds alot like John"I'm Full Of [bleep]" Porter. Outfitter,guide and shooting prodigy and master of the 186 class rams.

Nope. Sounds like you have an axe to grind and you think far less of John than I do. John and I disagree on virtually everything but he is an extremely knowledgeable hunter and gun person. It was John's gun I saw bring down one at over 1000 yards, and several others near that range. As a matter of fact, John had me carry one of those guns insisting I try it. That's not my cup of tea. I do consider John a very good friend.

The outfitter to whom I referred is a "friendly competitor" of John's and actually it was a guide who works for John (a VERY dear friend of mine,) who recommended the 6/284. My guide friend took 11 rams and 7 elk this year working for John and if you're interested I'll post some pictures of some of the "small" rams. I was there, not as the hunter.

Bobski-hope you have a super 07!

I am about 7 points towards a borrego tag in Wyo when I draw it I will tap you for the name of the sheep guide.

Thx

Mark D

Same to you Mark for '07.

The two best ones in the area are both great friends of mine, the same guys I make those pack trips with in the summer.

Friendly competitor. That wouldn't be meade dominick would it. The guy who actually got john the only truly good ram he's ever had.After another guide showed it to meade.

John doesn't have any friends,just paying customers. I've already seen what he's shot for rams this year.

I'm a Wizzum fan.....

I would recommend the 270 WSM. I own one and love it. The ballistics are awesome. I reload for it and am amazed at the accuracy I am able to attain.

Hey Sledder, you really don't like John do you?

It's not the guy you mentioned, I don't know him.

Just so that casual readers of this thread aren't imbued with your obviously prejudiced view of John Porter let me tell you that John has NEVER made a penny off of me and he likely knows he never will. Yet John has put me up in his camp, fed me, loaned me his rifles and his horses and has never once asked for a dime in return. The scales are tipped way in my favor as to $$$ and that would be reason enough for me to defend him.

I question you've seen all his rams and certainly not the ones I'm posting here which will allow any casual reader not to be left with the impression you try convey.

Since this is an elk thread I'll also tell you that his sheep guide is my very dear friend with whom I've hunted and rode trails for the last 10-11 years and he was with me for the bull shown in my avatar. In John's home he has a bull he took personally took 5 or 6 years ago that scores 407". John is not only a good honest man but an honest outfitter, great guide and hunter, but an expert marksman as shown by all the "iron" he collects in competitive shoots nationally. Too bad you can't see the man for what he truly is.

Here's some of the 11 rams taken this year, I'm in one picture. Guess who took the other pictures.







And these were from just ONE of his guides, my friend!

Bobski-nice rams what area did they come out of?

Thx and Happy New Year.

Mark D

TLFW,
I'm with you on this one! A friend of mine from Montanna used his 340 Weatherby with 250 Nosler Partitions on prairie dogs one day. It not only killed them it sent them about 40 ft in the air. I bet it would stop a coyote! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
He had to stop after about 7 shots as he was having to much fun. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
I think it is good advice to use the elk rifle on varmints for practice. I remember a gunwriter suggested that you could use a 100 gr Ballistic Tip for varmints in the 25-06 and just by switching to 100 gr Partitions have a big game rifle. What do you guys think about that advice?
whelennut

7# 257 roy with top glass....

woofer

Of the 11 my friend took almost all were Area 5, the others Area 3. These were all 5, and the BIG ones of which I don't have pictures were all Area 5.

Thanks Bobski-perhaps one of these years I'll draw.

Any ideas about where to go for moose?

Thx

Mark D

Mark~
I do. In all my time in the area I had only seen 3 moose cows in over 16 years of hunting around Yellowstone, but since they don't facinate me I never really looked for them. This year I lost count of the numbers of bulls I saw, and one pretty good one. I only saw two cows all tolled, everything else was bulls. If you draw, you have my phone and E-mail, just contact me. Only problem is that the area in which I saw all of them I've hunted and packed in for years and NEVER saw any till this Fall, so who knows?

Sadly he's probably not <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Lefty

John may honestly take your money,but there's nothing honest about him. Charging 8500 dollars a hunt isn't honest either,when they go for 6500 anywhere else. Paying your guides as little as 75 bucks a day when the going rate is 200 bucks a day isn't honest either. Trying to pawn off a freak 180 plus ram as an every day occurance in your camp,isn't honest either.

Bobski,you're the only guy I've ever talked to out of 50 plus people,that have dealt with John and thought he was worth a [bleep]. The most common thing mentioned about john,is how could two good people have a piece of [bleep] like john for a kid.

I have nothing against John,other then he's phoney. I see him for what he truly is also. Full of [bleep].

Large elk in the 400 class are more common then you'd think bob. Especially when you're living for months in the area.And take pot shots at 1000 yards. You aren't hunting them you're shooting them. Pulling a tag is the hard part. Few area guides and outfitters don't have pisser bulls they've shot. The yellowstone fire,combined with the park has produced some big bulls lately. Drawing a tag is the kicker.

Area 5 is the best area in wyoming. As a resident you can hunt it out of a pickup and kill 170 plus rams within sight of the pick up. A guide is a waste of money in are 5. Area three can be a logistical problem since everything is off the beaten path. Area 4 produced some real good rams this year. I've seen all of the rams taken in area 2,3,4, and 5. Via the digital camera that G and F uses to record every ram killed ,when its plugged.


Anbody that claims they guided 11 rams themself in the course of a single season,is a liar. But you're gullable enough to buy it bob.

Area 1 is the best moose area in the state. Few tags though.

Oh really? from personal experience my vote goes to the 25-06 with the 270 being a close second. I have shot bull elk with both and never lost one using my peashooters. one was a big 5x5 at ranged 375, bang-flop with 270, 130gr bullet. another 6x6 bang-flopped with 117gr 25-06, wasn't far(less than 100yds), but he couldn't be any more dead and I didn't have to go look for him.

I had a former instuctor (Dick Kroeckel) of Kremmling Colorado.
Who is recently deceased, tell the class at Colorado School of Gunsmithing, that his wife used a 250-3000 with Barnes 125 gr Originals for elk. He usd either a 270 or a 35 Whelen depending on his mood I guess. From what I gather the locals with more experience tend to use more experience and hunting skill and out of state people use 300 and 338 magnums as a substitute for skill and or experience. No way around it I guess, you can't buy everything with money.
JMHO
whelennut

I will never foget a conversation with an old taxidermist in Greeley, CO who in talking about cartridges and elk told me he had used his Savage rifle chambered in 300 Savage for years and typically took an elk every year (primarily cows).

Hey Sledder~
With your obviously intense passion and disdain for John it's pretty obvious you're either Meade Dominick, or very close to him. I vote the latter.

Your information is incorrect on wages paid to John's guides (and just about everything else as well.) It could be the $75 a day is what he offered YOU because he thought that was all you were worth!! Is that your problem? John pays his GOOD guides by the hunt, not by the day and that is a great advantage to a hunter. In addition he does NOT limit hunting to the days contracted. I've seen him keep hunters in camp until they fill their tags at no extra charge, or lets them return to continue at a later time when he has more room and no conflicts with other hunters. When I hunted with him I was the ONLY hunter in his elk camp that year that didn't fill a tag. I thought he wasn't going to let me leave until I did kill, even though I wasn't one of his paying clients. I didn't meet John until the last 5 or 6 years but neither before, nor since, in all the time I spend in Cody have I EVER heard from ANYONE what you have to say about him and I do run among many of the guides and competing outfitters up there.

As for honesty, this is still a capitalistic society, the market value of anything is what a willing buyer will pay to a willing seller. What he charges hunters, or pays guides, is what the market would bear. Everyone is free to accept, or not, where is that dishonest?

As to whether his charges are reasonable, he spends much more time than most outfitters, in effort and money in personally scouting waaay before hunters ever show up, so do his "good" guides. I've been an several of those expeditions with both guides and John, including in an airplane looking for game before the seasons even open. John scratches for a living just like everybody else up there and he certainly doesn't live like a wealthy thief. You're dead wrong about him. He likely provides more value than most outfitters.

John also has the best horses of any outfitter that I know of and I've lost count of the outfitted hunts I've been on throughout the Rockies, but well over 30. I've never seen gaited horses in the hills except with John and when you're trying to move somewhere fast, either on a stalk or to get home, or to a hunt area quickly, it's a pretty easy time and ride for us dudes to make 3-4 miles in 15 minutes over your trails with little or no wear and tear like you get on quarter-horses. That can be worth a lot.

He also provides the very best food I've ever had in any camp including 'ranch' hunts, both Lori and Robin are excellent chefs with high end restaurant quality even on sheep hunts.

It's pretty easy to try to trash someone hiding behind the anonymity of of the INTERNET. Would you have the courage to stand in front of John and tell him what you've said here to his face?

Better still, do you have the balls to stand up to that guide in those photos and call him a liar? I'd fly up there right now to see that, but of course that isn't going to happen, which pretty well defines you.

And no, I'm not at all gullible and anyone who knows me knows that, I just know what I see and experience which is the only way to judge others. I hope somehow you can heal your obvious anger, it's terribly debilitating. Peace my friend.

PS. I'm also sure I know who you are, we were in John's camp together and talked ballistics at dinner and I don't think you were charged for that hunt either. I have a video with which you may be familiar. I understand your feelings even less now.

We were never in any camp together bob.

I doubt there would be a need to call your buttbuddy the guide a liar over 11 rams. Since in public and in person,he wouldn't even be trying to claim idiotic [bleep] like that. Those stories are only told to a "Dude" like yourself bob. Because you're gullable enough to believe it and repeat it like its gospel. Thats a john trick. Tell the biggest story possible in hopes more people will believe it.

I've met plenty of Johns guides. Plenty of them are making 75 dollars a day. Paying by the hunt would also be like john. Then if the guide isn't succesful,john doesn't pay anything. He's also the type that would have guides book hunters and then operate under Johns outfitting license for a fee. Definately a grey area.

John has allowed you in his camps for free,because he's so pathetic,that he can't get a fully booked camp with paying customers. Prior to the accidental ram that meade got for him. John was having a hard time getting hunters to book for 4 grand a sheep hunt. Then he gets guys like yourself that are perfectly comfortable,free loading in somebodies camp.


As for gated horses. Theres no way in hell you're going to make 3-4 miles in 15 minutes,over the terrain sheep inhabit. And if you do,you'll end up with lame horses. Most camps are down hill from where you hunt also. And nobody in their right mind rides horses down hill in that country . They make the AARP exception for you bob. Johns probably got you believing the width of a dollar bill is ten inches also bob.

You've obviously haven't made it around cody and mentioned John.

Peace be with you my friend.

May the force be with you bob.

Thanks ric.

You're drawing at straws now boob. If you're refering to the ric I believe you are. He goes by wyowhisper on these forums. He's about the same caliber as John.

You ever hunt with Lee livingston bob.

Hey bob whats your opinion of commisioner/governor tags for elk.

Surprising you would ask a gullible, lying (walkers @ 12mph,) AARP, freeloading boob about anything, especially a dude! But my mother taught me to be courteous even to rude angry youngsters.

No, I haven�t hunted �with� your neighbor Lee but I did hunt out of his camp. Good guy as is Wes, his brother. Please don�t trash either one of them also.

As for Commissioner/Governor tags, I�ve hunted Wyoming elk for about 16-17 years and have only drawn three elk tags so that should tell you what I think of them. I�m told I have the best collection of 350+ bulls around, one at 401� (on my avatar,) most from Commissioner�s tags.

It�s very easy to change identities on the internet, but just as easy to check sources. If you want to return to that site where you were recently banned you might want to change your IP address as well as your handle, and control your rage a bit better. Good luck to you with Cabin Creek. . . . . .and ric will NEVER be the same caliber as John in my book.

Damn boob,you really are drawing at straws. Yes,John is a little more pathetic then ric,but not by much.

Exactly what site was I banned from? Since you're in the know and all.

You've certainly stayed in enough peoples camps for free bob.

.270Win. A ballistic tip will put a huge hole in a coyote, then use accubonds for elk. The two bullets shoot about the same. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />