What calibers and bullets have you hit elk but never recovered them? Be honest now. What do you attribute the failure to?

Since when is not recovering a bullet a failure?

I think he means never recovered the elk. and round and round we are about to go......

If the Elk walked or ran away? 99% of the time it was not the bullets fault, what are you looking for an excuse?? Roi7

Read again...

More than likely bullet placement is the problem, not bullet construction.

Ed, in the English language, the reference to them applies to the first noun in the sentence, hence the reference to bullets and calibers. He needs to make the question more clear.

Only failure to recover the bull was with a .35 Whelen 225 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw at about 240 yards. Tracked sparse blood for over a mile and lost the track. It was obviously poor shot placement as every other critter I shot with that load only went a few steps, if any. I have never recovered a Barnes TSX or TTSX bullet, but all the critters went down immediately. Happy Trails

Bullets don't fail. Using one of the wrong construction, pushing them too fast, and error in shot placement usually is culprit 99% of the time. All human failure

Game that didn't bleed were all misses...i assume. Game that bled and "got away" were bad shots...i assume. Theres no way to actually know what happened in the first two scenarios. Game that died and i actually recovered a bullet...well, the bullet worked i guess. That said, there have been numerous posts about bullets working and not working on the campfire. I have recovered elk that had been shot in previous seasons and lived and elk that i shot but thought the bullet should have behaved..."better".

Pictures of bullets recovered from elk that were shot in a previous season and lived until i shot them...

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...mium-bullets-needed-for-elk#Post15625911

This has been hashed out Ad nauseam, but here goes again: I've hit 8-10 elk on the shoulder/shoulder blade with 6.5 mm 140 hunting bergers. I only lost one but had to run down a few others and finish them off with head shots. Once I got them home and cut up at least two had a spiderwebbed cracks on their scapula from where the bullet hit and didn't penetrate, just like how a rock chip spiderwebs a windshield. I now wish I looked more at the other elk shoulders blades, and took pictures.

John Burns has me half convinced it is my particular barrel being hard on the bullets and not the bullets themselves, as I am having 147 ELDs from a few different lots explode in mid air with the same rifle and sub 3000 FPS MV, 1/8 twist ballistics.........I dunno but it has made me wonder.

My only other experience with bergers is from when the hunting VLD first came out several years ago, out of some sort of .300 caliber round some guy I was guiding had. They were less than impressive on elk as well, but they were also the first generation.

14-0

Only bull that made it out of sight was hard quartering to me, showing his left side. The 180 grain Partition hit him pretty far back in his left lung, nicked a lobe of his liver, then traveled above the gut to lodge in front of his right femur. He made it about 75-100 yards. I recovered the bullet.

Partitions, Core-Lokts, Eld-x.

300 Wby Mag, 7mm Rem Mag, .30-06, 7mm-08.

I've never lost a game animal that was hit where it was supposed to be hit.

But, I have had what I consider bad bullet performance. Yeah the animals died.....

I shot a really big buck in Va, last muzzleloader season.

I was using a 250gr Barnes TMZ....just like the TTSX. MV around 2100. Shot was 60 yards.

Punched him through the shoulders and center punched the heart. Obviously didn't go far, but the exit wound was identical to the entrance wound.

Looked like it didn't open at all.

Not to sure I'm going to use them this ML season.

I would be willing to bet that 99.9999% of elk that are lost after being shot with hunting bullets are lost due to either poor shot placement or poor tracking skills. Today's bullets are very effective and if placed in the vitals will kill any elk that ever lived.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS Rio7

My point exactly. It is not usually the bullet that fails but the man behind the gun. Cup and core bullets work just fine if you put in them in the proper location. The only surprise was no one attributed it to hitting a twig or brush deflecting the bullet. No need for ad nauseam.

If the elk was “never recovered” you don’t know what happened.
Bullets only fail if they do not meet claims made by the manufacture.

None.

284 160gr accubond

308 200gr partition

338 225gr barnes x
338 250gr partition

375 235gr barnes x
375 250gr barnes x
375 300gr partition

cup and cores are for locals.

I've never lost an elk that I hit but I have had a bullet come apart. 180 gr AB out of a 300 WSM. It hit a rib and blew up. I found the jacket inside the ribs on the far side and later found the core in the heart. I can see that if it hit a leg bone but not a rib. I really lucked out with that little bit of lead in the heart. It was enough to ground him within 10 yds.

I've had consistent failures with three 180 grain Nosler Combined Technology slugs on elk launched from a 30-378 at an average velocity of 3,385 fps. Right in the kill zone and the slug never makes it to the far side of the body cavity. Obviously its coming apart, but none of the elk have complained. Did not get an exit wound on an Alaska moose either.

Exactly. It reads, what calibers and bullets have you not recovered. My answer: 200gr Nosler partition 30 cal. They were damn sure not failures though...

"Effective" bullets have been made since the 1940's. One just have to have enough sense to use the right ones and put them in the right spot..

How did that come about? At my deer camp I've seen the "shoot them right behind the leg" idea ingrained so strongly that in the heat of the moment the idea of what is the best line through the vitals went right out the window.

Does out of stock, no back order count as a failure?
:-)

You’re on the wrong thread, paper and cardboard is hardly a tough test media...Just sayin’.

Discuss:

GO!

That bullet is a devastating penetrator.

If that was designed as an expanding bullet and it hit the animal within its design velocity window, I'd call that a failure. The bullet failed to open as designed. A lot of potential what-ifs though.

The crowd that shrieks "if it killed the animal, it's not a failure" will probably take issue with the comment, but that's the way I see it. If a bullet fails to open or to penetrate as designed, that will always be a failure in my mind.

That’s a fail like ‘slaves selfie.

A portion of the bullet in the pic may be missing. Without forensic wound analysis, and knowledge of the hit animals reaction and ultimate result. Success or failure remains undeterminable.

I'm betting the hollow point was clogged up, hence the failure to expand. A bullet may still kill, but fail to perform like the manufacturer designed it to perform, which I'd call a failure to perform. The only Barnes I'd personally hunt with is the TTSX.

It is a .224" 62 grain TSX, and (I assume) didn't have a clogged tip since it started to open like normal but like SLM, didn't finish. .233 Rem at normal velocity and 60-70 yard shoulder impact on a mule deer nearly the size of a small elk. Luckily he stopped just long enough for for me to put another round in him.

I fully agree that just because a bullet kills, doesn't mean it didn't fail. This one may have hit bone and tumbled, causing expansion to stop. I am unsure and will never know, I guess.

Bullet is all there. All 62 grains of it. Critter flinched at the shot but didn't act like normal shoulder shot deer/elk do.

He got the gutless treatment, and was in griz country so I didn't spend a lot of time looking at the wound.

It's all guessing, by both you and myself, but once again I'd bet on clogged tip. VLD's will do the same thing, at least on some of the hogs we shot with them did when the hollow point was clogged/closed up.

No offense, but if I were after big mule deer it wouldn't be with a .224 anything. I've been after 'em since 1971, killed 47 of them, never a thought of that caliber.

This is actually interesting.

I've had hp bullets fired from 38spl and 45acp handguns into dry phonebooks have similar appearance. Bent shank, mushed nose instead of a mushroom. Insufficient velocity in that case. Bullet design could cause the same result.

It sounds like the big mule deer may have been quite a large job for that bullet/cartridge. Because of the ubiquitous flow of information. Its becoming a well known thing that .224 bullets of good quality can have remarkable performance on large game. Still a good situation for careful scrutiny.

When I first saw him he was bedded behind a big snag, an old Doug fir busted off about 10’ up. All I could see was his ass, the rest was obstructed by the snag. I could tell he was a bull by his yellow hide. He must have felt my eyes on him because he got up and peeked at me from behind the tree. I saw the left side of his antlers and his left side, almost head on. My only option was a raking shot to take out as much of his left lung as I could.

Mt. Washington Wilderness, Oregon. The pack out was a bitch. Oh, and he was a nice 5x5.

44 years elk hunting. 338 win mag 250 grain nosler partition. 0 failure.

None taken, at all. I have complete confidence in it, but maybe more in the rifle rather than the round.
This bullet pictured was an anomaly, and could have been caused by about anything. I have no clue.

The second shot put in nearly the same place made him instantly collapse, just like a head shot.

That bullet didn't open and then tumbled because of it's resultant shape. Not opening put it's center of gravity too far back and then just like the normal FMJ would have done, tumbled. If the bullet would have opened, it would have been weight forward and stayed on course with "normal" performance. Why it did not open; I can't say.
Your 223 no doubt stabilized that bullet just fine in the Air but once it hits meat other forces and actions are required to stabilize it. Short version is: Must open up and create weight forward profile.

^^^^^^^^^^^Hell of a testament right here^^^^^^^^^^^

AGREED

This is pretty much one of those “gotcha” questions! Many will “claim” that, if the animal was recovered.....it wasn’t a failure.

My take on this is a bit different. When the shooter/hunter expects a bullet to perform as advertised, at velocities for which it was designed, and it fails to do so ....... I see it as a failure! The majority of hunters do not perform extensive bullet testing in ballistic gel or a homegrown test medium, and rely upon the manufacturer’s bullet description!

Once upon a time, I used a bullet on thin skinned game, deer, antelope, bear (Black), and elk......which was designed for a large, medium bore cartridge that would/could be used on potentially dangerous game in Alaska and/or Africa. Yet, the bullet would completely disintegrate after impact on small, thin skinned game......deer, bear, and elk. Yes, 2 of 3 animals were recovered after a quick decisive kill. However, these were broadside shots, which could have just as easily been accomplished with a .223 Rem. The other animal, which was shot at a steeply angled, “raking” shot requiring deep penetration.......was lost.

Yes, I should take the blame for “not” realizing that these bullets were inferior after the first animal taken, finding that the bullet had disintegrated .......failing to exit a small, thin-skinned animal! But, being young and dumb.....I “wrongly assumed” that a heavy, large caliber bullet, from a prominent, highly regarded bullet manufacture, designed for a cartridge recognized as a cartridge/bullet to be used on potentially large, dangerous game ......would “not” completely disintegrate on any animal!

So you make the decision.......was this bullet failure or not? memtb

Are you sure it didn't tumble first, and not open due to tumbling?

Out of how many elk kills? That could make difference I guess.

The bullets that have disappointed me have done to much damage not to little damage. Rio7

That’s a solid point.

My ol buddy has a log book of every elk his father and himself have taken with location, range, etc since the late 50’s. They were pretty regular elk killers with each of them taking 2 elk quite a few times when they hunted both Idaho and Oregon, with some Wyoming in there too. No failures per se. Some of the recovered Bullets (180 Partitions from a 30-06, 300 Win and 300 Wby) look like hell but they were all pretty much either caught in the far side hides or big bones.

It’s a helluva track record with over a 100 elk at this point.

I know a guy who has hunted elk every year that I am aware of since the early 80s, maybe even earlier. I am pretty sure he has killed one elk. A raghorn bull in about 1994 IIRC.

.270 Win and Wally World special ammo at about 50 yards. That's 40+ years of elk hunting with zero failures too.

Badass.....

RIO7 is that the going in or coming out side? i saw one shot that looked like that with a win. silver tip in a 270 130 gr going in on a 100lb doe . it ran about 175 yards . had some small cuts in the heart from bone shrapnel

44mc, Exit wound, 180 gr. core lock, on a 210# white tail buck , 30-06 , Rio7

[quote=RIO7]

44mc, Exit wound, 180 gr. core lock, on a 210# white tail buck , 3006.
Wow that is overkil

What was the range?

PintsofCraft, As I recall about 150 yards. DRT Rio7

Surprisingly explosive. Rough job on the skinners.

I’d call that a failure too, unexpected for that bullet, in some ways.

Been reading thru this thread pondering what I’d say would be a bullet failure and what I wouldn’t. I guess, personally, I’d categorize a bullets failed performance as ‘unexpected performance’ given velocity & range. I think I remember Mule Deer relating a story about a Speer of some caliber that shed its core & failed to penetrate a small deer or antelope even tho he’d had great luck with the same bullet over a long period of time. (Forgive me if I’m wrong).

So my logic: If a bullet pencils even though it expands 99% of the time that’s a failure. If a bullet like Rio7 shared, grenades, that’s a failure given the reputation of the CoreLokt bullet.

Overall I’ve been of the opinion that unless I’m calculating impact velocity, most of my failures or sub-optimal results are on me. Just sayin. I think most bullets are well tested and our ‘reloading or other creativity’ creates perceived failures.

Anyhow, just my .02

Yeah, definitely have to be careful with years hunting and numbers actually taken.

"Nosler Partition"....................The Original Fail Safe.

That’s about right.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Yup^^^^^^^^^^^

Sounds like an interesting fella.

That's lots of work. I'd like to talk to him to understand the decades of commitment. Maybe it wasn't that much commitment?

He just enjoys being out there. His commitment has been average I'd say as far as the actual effort put into a hunt.

He's had his chances I know...both archery and rifle. A fair amount of opportunity has come his way but there was always branches or something else in the way that deflected the shot (archery shots at least) or something else that happened. Many of his opportunities where he didn't take a shot I know others here would have tried, but his ethics prevented him from doing so. He's old enough now that he doesn't get real into it but does still does go every year with his son.

He certainly hasn't been one to just sit around camp and drink beer. I have never seen him touch alcohol.

What is the matter with a neck shot down fast miss it runs . You shoot at a target it has a little circle of about 1 inch you put 3 in it at 200 yards neck shot no

I have seen:

7 Mag 140g sierra btsp blow up on a bucks shoulder, 270 yards, MV 3200
140g Nosler ballistic tip fixed that problem

308, I have seen a 150g sst blow up on a bucks shoulder, 65 yard shot. I switched to a 150g Hornady flat base.

30/06. I have seen a 150g Nosler ballistic tip blow up on a shoulder blade, quartering frontal shot, 100 yds. 150g Hornady flat base, 165g Speer btsp, 165g Hornady fixed all problems

6mm Rem, I have seen the Speer 75g HP blow up on a hip joint of a coyote. I changed to a 60g Sierra hp and a Sierra 75g HP, all problems solved, then discovered the 80g Sierra blitz bt

22/250 Ruger 77, I have seen multiple 52g Speer hp blow up on ribs and shoulders of coyotes, 50-125 yards. 52g Berger, 52g Sierra match, and 53g Sierra match fixed that blow up problem

243, I have seen multiple coyotes shot mid body with 85g Sierra spt flat base, and they walked/trotted off. 80g Sierra blitz bt fixed this problem

17 hmr, I shot several coyotes at 10-15 yards with mid body shots, never finding them. Sold the rifle and bought a Ruger 22 hornet, opened up the chamber to the 22 K hornet, 40g Speer spire points rule..3000 fps

243, on one hunt, we shot half a dozen coyotes with 75g Hornady HP, the bullets never expanded, in 1990. Later, We went to shooting the 80g Single shot pistol bullet...problem solved!

Partitions and Barnes never lost an animal, +-100.

I have seen two "bullet failures", if you can call them that

One was a Winchester Super X factory load in 6.5 x 55. loaded with their Soft Point bullet, not Power Point. I se today they are loading Power Points in that load. Shot a small mule deer buck at about 70 yards, buck ran baout 50 yards and dropped. It was a chest shot and the entire side was a bloodshot mess. Maybe hit a piece of buck brush before the deer?

2nd was a puzzler. Not so much a bullet failure as a load failure. Shot an average sized Saskachewan whitetail buck at maybe 80 yards with a 30.30 Rem CL factory load.. It exited the bluff and I hollered at my Dad who was on point he nailed it on the way out. I couldn't figure out how I missed , and was disappointed in my shooting Upon skinning, the CL bullet was found just under the hide on the onside shoulder meat, fully intact.Non expanded.

I am guessing it was a low powder charge

Bullet failure? I know that I have have had elk need additional shots while using the following. 30:06, 308 Sierra FB, 180 gr.. a big Rosey took several shots and a mile or so get him on the ground, he was filling his tracks with blood but continued downhill for quit a distance. Three bullets recovered two on the near shoulder. Cow, eastern Idaho, 160 gr, , 284 Barnes Monolith, 7mm Remington Magnum. Again 3 shots from a prone position while she was standing and wandering in a circle on the opposite hillside. Two bullets recovered with little or no expansion. Cow western Wyoming, 162 gr. Hornady BT SP, .284. 150 yards, again wandering all over the mountain top, until she slowed down enough for one through the near shoulder. Large buck deer, 55 gr. Remington PP, 22-250 cal. Two shots in near shoulder, after sight following for a couple of miles he laid down, and i got in close, and finished. I have had fantastic success with the 180 Partition, and the 160 AB, the AB seemingly a litter slower to get the job done, but its also producing less energy.

I have a couple of experiences to share. One was a cow elk at a bit over 400. She was clearly hit in the front end as we could see her limping and favoring the opposite side leg. Shot her with a .264 and 130 Accubond. Trailed her over a mile in the snow and then saw her again over 600 yards away and still going as we ran low on light. She was still going. There was blood in the snow, but not much. After the shot the elk darted back and forth so it was hard to make out which one I shot and put another round in her without shooting a second elk. That was a tough deal, with no good explanation. Seems like I hit her in the front leg, which should have done the trick. Won’t ever know what went wrong here.

I was witness to a buddy shooting a Bull with a .300 Win and 200 grain Accubonds at about 200. Shot high, dropping the bull, but it wasn’t there when we climbed down. There was patchy snow so I found him an hour later, saw the wound high on his back and he got up and ran. Never saw him again. I didn’t have a gun on me as I had killed a bull three hours prior. Shot placement issue here.

Two other bullet performance issues that I’ll mention as unsatisfactory on elk. One with a TSX, one with a TTSX. Shot a nice bull at 400 yards with a 270 WSM with 130 TSX. Hit low and forward, taking out both “elbow” joints just under the chest cavity. Shot him in the chest when I walked up, no reaction, shot him again. No reaction. Shot him in the neck after that. What I didn’t like here was how he just seemed to soak up the chest shots. Obviously I could have chose to neck shoot him from the start but he was trying to get up and moving his head around. And yeah he would have died from the chest shots, and I don’t know how long I actually gave him before the neck shot, but would have liked him to die faster than whatever my sense of time was allowing.

The other weird one was a bull at about 100 yards with a 264 and 120 TTSXs. Hit him all four times in the chest, broadside, no reaction to any shot, as I was reloading, he walked off and then tipped over. He’s dead, the bullets worked, but none of the rounds phased him for some reason.

My current guns primarily use Accubonds, partitions and ballistic tips, with some Speer Hot Core here and there. I generally stay away from all copper bullets now, as I also have some deer experiences that I felt could be improved on compared to lead core and bonded experiences.

Edit to add:
I see we are adding deer issues here so I’ll add my 243 WSSM issue. Using factory 95 grain ballistic tips, first hit in the liver on a muley at about 200. Follow ups at short range while he was walking in circles mostly blew up on the shoulder. He died eventually. I believe I shot him 6 times, made an absolute mess. Probably outside the velocity window of that bullet at short range.

Killed triple digits of deer with mostly ballistic tips and love them, at moderate muzzle velocity, but I do recognize you can get them going too fast for good penetration especially if you hit bone.

Because they only work if you sever the spine, and an elk especially has a lot more neck than spine. You drop them, and about 30 seconds later they get up and run away with minimal blood only to die from the wound days later.

That's a pretty good account. It's funny as some report the kills like lightning with fast TTSX's and some report as you have EXB. I have used a handful and they've worked fine but like you mentioned, a little slower. I shot a little ranghorn at about 100-150 yards with the Whelen and 225 TSX at 2700 start speed. Bull took the bullet and wandered off. I sorta thought I'd missed till I went to look and he was stone dead at the end of a 30-50 yard blood trail. I changed to 250 PT's cause I thought it was the bullet causing the meandering, but looking back I don't know if any bullet could've done better other than a Bitterroot. Those in cartridges I have used them in have worked wonderfully and stuff doesn't seem to go anywhere, but I haven't done enough to call that fact either. Still cool to hear others experience.

Headshots too. I have seen a couple deer over the years with jaws blown off, I suspect from head or neck shooters.

But, you either kill or miss them....

I’m as guilty as anyone. I shot my biggest bull in the timber in the Frank Church in the jaw. It was a ridiculously long day by the time we finally found him at the back of a box canyon where I was extremely lucky to finish him. After that, I swore I’d never monkey around with that sorta shot on a game animal. Made me feel horrible.

Same/same, along with A-frames and Woodleighs, very happy to report i've never had a bullet failure.

For shot placement, I wait until I have a shot that I know I can make, be it 50 yards or 400 yards. Breathing, hold, rest, brush, movement all figure in. The Barnes TTSX has never failed to anchor elk within spitting distance of where they were hit.

Nope. Not sure. Just my guessed based on good science and a good bit of experience.

180 grain 7mm express-Rem core loct-elk....deer-180 Nosler Partition--went right through--caribou 180--/06 with new hard Hornady plastic tips.Yea shots were right spot,,,,we know how to shoot and where to hit..Rem & Hornady were new releases we were trying.

I haven't recovered al of the bullets that I've shot elk with, but I've recovered all of the elk that I shot with bullets (and an arrow).

I am guilty of all of the above. I call the head shot the chump shot. But you can fail to kill them with a head shot, I have two, to my credit, both deer,, both close range and both never found, and both wasted. Its not something that I am proud of, but I learned to never try it again.