Go easy on me here. Like most people I was taught by dads, uncles and friends and it was word of mouth tradition.

I would like to ask what is different and similar about the traditions you were taught or follow.

I was always taught to skin an elk carcass to prevent spoilage.

I leave it on deer regularly and have never had any trouble.

In particular I was to be certain to get the thick skin off the back and shoulders if I had to leave the hide on any length of time. Also to slit the meat on the hams following the bone up to the socket and opening the sockets.

The only time I didn't do this I did lose a couple of handfulls of meat from each hip socket and maybe a handfull from under the shoulders.

I skin ASAP no matter what.

I also live in arizona, so if you dont skin asap, or find the animal very qickly, chances of loosing meat are great!

+1
Elk hides hold in heat remarkably well. Even in subfreezing temps I will skin ASAP.

KC

+1 Skin asap, meat rots from the bone out. That is why I cut and wrap my game meat. I don't want someone else meat that was not cleaned, skined, and wiped down clean. I got tired of getting hair for the filler in Summer Sausage. Lot of shops were waying the meat and giving you any meat back.

An elk's hide will keep him warm at -40. It's a pretty fair insulator. To cool an elk, skinning is 10 times more important than gutting.

Elk hide left on, is why barbeque sauce was invented.

Skin your elk ASAP. If you put him down at zero dark thirty, that's what flashlights/headlamps are for. Take care of the meat no matter what time you think you should be in bed or back at the cabin.....or one should never have taken the shot that late if not willing to do the work.

For most people, the hunts over when that one elk is fully prepped prior to butcherin'. Lots of time to sleep, rest, celebrate and call home AFTER caring for that animal.

This is why I am really bothered by the hunting shows that shoot an elk in the evening--sometimes on a September archery hunt--and then come back the next morning to find it. Granted, it probably improves the footage for the show, but I think they should get ticketed for wanton waste because of soured meat.

Then there are all the outfitters that say leave the hide on,just quarter it. I think they do this and tell you it keeps the meat cleaner, when actaully they don't want to get elk blood on thier pack bags.
One only has to shoot a bull in rut,and try to take care of gutting it with all that goo ( we know what it is) that is on the belly from pecker to brisket, without getting nay of it on the meat, let alone leaving it there till later

Just because an outfitter does it a certain way doesn't mean it's the RIGHT way. I've shot a lot of critters in the last 45 years and I've learned that THE HIDE COMES OFF.

Dick

We have always left the hide one elk and deer. Never any spoiled or ruined meat. I guess it depends on how cold it is getting during the night. I have shot a few elk in september that I skinned but the nights were still in the 40's and 50's. In oct and later the skin stays on them till we cut them up.

I admit they are easier to skin if you do it right away but I never have too much trouble.

We always let our animals "age" as long as possible but sometimes we have to cut them up right away as the temperature isn't allowing much hanging time.

On the few I have skinned right away the outside gets a crust of dried meat. Some times pretty thick if the temp is fairly warm, not good for backstraps. If you are skinning the animal I hope you cut out the backstraps when you are done. When you peel the hide off a elk that has been hanging for a few weeks the meat underneath looks perfect.

Never heard of splitting the hams Dancing Bear, so I guess if it's working for you keep on it. Do the cuts you make in the meat ever get fly blown?

I argree with you guys saying you have to take care of the animal right away. I get it gutted ASAP then get it home. If I have to leave it on the mountain for the night, I get it's back up off the ground, on some sticks or rocks then prop the ribs open. Cover it with some pine boughs and be back there first thing in the morning to get it. The only thing I do when I get the elk home and hung up is cut the inside tenderloins out and take them in the house. They dry out pretty fast if left on the carcass for very long.

I am not saying it's the right way, just the way we do it here.

Temperature and flies are what you need to keep close attention too, as stated by ross220. Welcome by the way.

I seem to have my best luck in the evenings, and I am always prepared to skin 'em out, quarter them, and hang the quarters over a tree branch after dark. Last year it took until about 10:00 PM, working alone.

But, three years ago I killed one right at dusk. Mature cow. Could not find a blood trail because there wasn't one (muzzleloader, shoulder shot, no exit). Searched high and low for a few hours but couldn't find my elk, it had run a ways and not in the direction it started when I shot it so that threw me off.

Found it first thing the next morning, overnight temps. were around 25. It died out in the open, not under any trees, so heat loss was at a maximum, the night was clear. I thought the meat would be no good, but it was good, even the interior around the hip joint. All of it was good.

So, I wouldn't leave the skin on overnight intentionally, but if it happens, don't give up on the meat until you see for yourself whether it's still good.

I am with ross220. I leave the hide on if the temperature is cool enough, though often quarter (leaving the hide on the quarters) a big animal like an elk or moose.

A lot of it has to do with air circulation. Even a medium-size elk can cool down nicely IF it is raised up where the air can circulate around the entire carcass. Twenty years ago I bow-killed a 5-point bull on Sept. 5th, just at sunset. This was on a ranch in central Montana and we could drive a pickup right up to him. After gutting, we drove him back to the ranch headquarters and hung him up on a front-end loader. It got down to 40 or so that night, and he cooled nicely. We skinned him the next day and he was one of the very best elk we've ever eaten.

On the other hand I have also seen the bottom side of a small cow elk start to sour overnight when left in foot-deep snow. The snow acted as an insulator.

One of the guys I hunted elk with in my youth almost always cut the neck off just in front of the shoulders if he had to leave an elk in the woods, whether all day or overnight. Elk are thickest through the shoulders, and cutting the neck off solved any souring problems even in fairly warm weather. He was also careful to get the hindquarters off the ground, but hardly ever skinned any animal in the field. I ate a lot of elk at his house and it was always good.

I have also killed moose at dawn of what promised to be an 80-degree day--and skinned and quartered those immediately. So it depends on the circumstances.

Air circulation is key, and getting it up off the ground, either hanging, or propped up on a rock/log/stump is a must. Tramp down all snow, and don't pack it in the cavity, it will make the meat wet, promoting the spread of bactieria, and will also inslulate it. Hide on or hide off is generaly of no consequence to me if the temps aren't too warm, say 30-40's at night and less than 60 in the day time. A little black pepper keeps the flies at bay.

On bigger bulls, we'll cut the neck off as well, or skin it back, and also skin/seperate the front shoulders from the ribs at the brisket, and put a stick in the ribs to keep them open.

I would say for a novice, skining them out is probably your best bet, and you don't have to worry about it.

I know what works for me and don't see myself changing anytime soon. I've never eaten a 'bad tasting' elk, had more than one that was shoe leather/chewy though.

The last few elk I have killed I have used the 'no gut method'. With this I leave the hide on the quarters, similar to stated above by JB, I cut the quarters off and get them off the ground ASAP. If there's a tree nearby, I'll saw off a limb and hang them up. If not I lay the quarters over a log or in the brush - just off the ground. The last 2 years I have taken bulls while bowhunting both on Sept. 7, both in the evening and both by myself. Used the method described above, took the loins, rib meat, neck meat, etc. in a bag on first trip then hauled the rest out via backback over the next day, into a cooler w/ ice and then finished skinning the quarters some 48 hours later at home. This has been the best method for me to keep the meat clean and bug free. I have not had any issues with spoilage. Another thing that works quite well on a hot day is to lay the quarters on a tarp in a creek bed, not in the water but in the shade alongside the creek. The water in mountain creeks is very cold and the rocks will suck the heat right out of the quarters and keep them refrigerated until you can get to a cooler.

With moose heat is the enemy..If you have one in half hanging split the neck to the bone.The heat that comes outta there could steam veggie's.

A friend and I were discussing this topic for Deer not long ago...haven't got to go Elk hunting yet.

Our thoughts were to get the animal gutted, skinned, and hung asap.

On a larger animal I can see it being a chore either trying to find a suitable place to hang, or rolling the animal back and forth, working around trying to skin and quarter. Not as difficult with Deer as Elk no doubt. But why leave it on?

I think we all agree it is about getting the meat cooled as soon as possible, but still don't understand the benifit to leaving the hide on. There are different situations to account for so there maybe no single "best" answer. For example: Some have mentioned that it isn't real measable in an evening hunt.

The problem that I see is cutting through the skin and hair, the knife getting contaminated, and hair getting into everything. We have felt that the hide isn't the most sanitary thing and getting it off the animal is important.

Maybe, like some said...it's tradition?

Personally I feel the less you cut on a critter the less chance you have to contaminate the meat. Bacteria isn't going to penitrate through the hide. Also when you skin it there is no way you're not going to cross contaminate between the meat chunks you're cutting off and the hide which your removed. The dirt, hair and junk will be all over your cloths, hands, knives, etc. You can be as careful as you want, but it will in no way be as clean as if I skin/cut it in the shop in a controled environment. When gutted and opened up, the only part of the animal that can get contaminated is the cavity and a the inside portion of the hams which dry up anyway.

I cut meat commercially for 2 years, and have done my own for 20, I'd say over 50% of the time the meat that came in 'boned out' was filthy compared to the whole animals or the quarterd/hide on critters. Some had more dirt and hair than meat, and not one ended up with as much finished product.

I much perfer to have a clean working area once the meat cutting starts.

People worry way to much about this stuff. Elk don't spoil on the spot, and blue/wood rifles don't melt in the rain...

The cold rock next to the stream is a great tip.

Exactly.

Meat-science studies have shown that meat under the hide is essentially sterile. As soon as you pull the hide off, you open up the surface to air-borne bacteria. Therefore the logical thing to do, even in warm weather, is to expose as little of the meat surface to air as possible--unless, of course, you have access to a walk-in cooler or something similar.

Another thing that can be done on smaller animals (deer, antelope, etc.) in warm weather is place as many bags of ice inside the body cavity as possible. This cools things down right away. On an early-season sheep hunt I have also put the quarters inside plastic bags and placed them in a cold creek.

I was gonna mention the creek thing, but Johnny beat me to it. Several times, we've had warm fall weather and had to either deal with deer meat the best way we could or run it to town.

We eventually started boning the deer, placing the meat in doubled tall kitchen bags and securing the plastic bags under a large rock in the deep part of a shady creek. Big Creek, which ran by our camp, runs at a consistant 36 degrees.

The meat cooled out wonderfully and was as sweet as could be when we arrived home. As an added bonus, the meat was already clean, boned, segregated and pretty much ready to wrap or grind.

We've done this in Canada a few times, just to prevent any problems with bears. Bears have struck our firepit, but apparently the garbage bags in the creek trick totally eliminates any meat smell, so we've never had any game meat loss.

Steve

Steve, you don't mean the Big Creek below Tower Mountain by chance, do you?

We camp there for elk...

-jeff

Used the "backwoods refrigerator" a time or two myself, this is from last year, I was a ways back in so the last load had to wait a day and a half. Good eating all around.

The rocks at the edge of the creek are nearly as cold as the creek - other than the bear thing, your meat stays cold and then you don't risk parasites. You don't want to drink the water because of them, so I don't know why you would want to eat them - I know the meat is cooked but still why chance it.

Thanks for the tips. We're still figuring it out and what you say makes sense.

There are some very good points mentioned here, and some great tips that will come in handy at some point in the future.

Most of my game is harvested during cooler temperatures, but there has been the odd time when it has been important to get that meat into a cooler as soon as possible. I still prefer to get the animal cleaned and skinned, and into the cooler as quickly as possible.

The best thing that I can say other than what has already been mentioned is always use seperate knives for cutting the hair, and working around glands while skinning. The transfer from urine soaked elk hair, or nipped gland residue on your knife to the meat while skinning is probably the biggest thing that will "taint" your meat. And wash those knives thoroughly before using them to cut up any meat.

centershot:

I know many guys who cool meat in streams. Not one has succumbed to parasites. Cooling meat in air (on rocks) is not nearly as effective as cooling it in water during warmer seasons. If cooling meat on the rocks works for you, by all means, continue.

"If you will not drink the water, why would you want to eat something soaked in it" was a quote from a butcher that I took a moose to one time. That meat was wet, but from snow - The quote has stuck with me though. I did not have a good answer for it then, and I still don't some 20 years later. I think if it is wrapped in plastic all should be fine. Sometimes you have to improvise. Cooling ASAP by any means available is high priority.

Dancing Bear: The reason some folks leave the hide on the Elk quarters, sections or what ever is to prevent the meat from drying out, also for helping to keep it clean and in some circumstances to keep flies and Wasps from getting at the meat.
The Elk meat must be cooled (by quartering sectioning or hanging in a very cool spot) AND it also should be protected from drying out for to long a period of time.
I used to live on the west coast and "game meat drying out" was not much of a problem.
When I travelled to the high plains and the east slope of the Rockies to Hunt then the need to protect the meat from drying out was obvious and had to be done.
With Deer and Antelope I normally skin the carcass in a day or two and place it into my custom made muslin game bags for hanging (aging).
I also have special bags made for Elk quarters and depending on circumstances (duration of time to pass before the meat can be hung in a cooler or butchered) sometimes the hide is left on the meat sections for additional protection from drying out during the rest of the Hunt.
If you harvest an Elk and plan on heading home immediately or immediately to a butcher then I would skin it for complete and quick cooling and wrap it in game bags for protection from drying out.
As is often the case here on the east slope of the Rocky Mountains ones Elk may be in camp (in dry and very cool air) for maybe a week or more! I would leave the hide on the sections in this type instance.
I butcher most all of my own game meat and you can sure tell the difference between dried out meat and nice moist cool meat during the butchering process.
Where I live and Hunt a person can get a fresh slice of bread out of a bag and if you leave it exposed to the air you will have dry toast like bread in under 8 minutes!
You learn to eat your sandwiches quickly here - and to protect your game meat from drying out!
Cooling the meat is an absolute and keeping it from drying out is also very important to having better tasting game meat.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Up the Middle Fork of the John Day River, Desolation Unit.

I have killed a few elk and guided folks to a few more. Let me state that I have always skinned elk right there. Gut, skin, quarter and hang; in just persactly that order. Takes about two hours for a man alone ... sometimes, up to three hours if he has help.

Steve

I guess I ahve always worried about getting the meat cooled quickly withb elk vs a layer drying out,although I can under stand why some worry about that. I too hunt dry Colorado. My elk gets skinned all the time,no matter when the season. It usually hangs 4-5 days in bags made of bed sheets incamp. Not as much if the westher is warm, evern if I have to make a trip home with it to put it in a cooler.If I can, I leave the hide on deer.
Once home and butchering I always remove all the viscera anyway on the outvside the meat. I usually have a crus tabout 1/8 inch thick. With a fine fillet knife,the viscera and thin crust comes right off. I think it helps in that any contamination on the meat gets cut off .
No scientific proof here, but this is what has always worked for me. Might not for some

If you leave the hide on or off, whatever you prefer.

Make sure the pelvic bone is cut/sawn in two, that there is no connection for heat to transfer from leg quarter to leg quarter.


Also,
After watching Spike and Silver Bullet in action this is pretty much how I do it.

http://home.att.net/~sajackson/guttless1.html

+1!

Do the same with deer.

+2

Also as an old meat cutter at a game processing plant, I would like to add that cooling them is very important, as you all know, but I also agree that the meat under the hide is sterile before you take the hide off as well. I always thought that the very best way to cool game was with a garden hose, if you can get to one. Cold water will cool things faster than air and wash blood, hair, and gut juice away at the same time. I know that in some areas a hose isn't handy, but if one can be reached in a few hours, it is just the ticket. Of course this is followed by air cooling, and making sure air circulates, but without measuring, I'll bet 90% of the cooling is done after this much cold water.

A creek will work very well for quarters too, but of course isn't sterile. I usually hunt where I wouldn't be too concerned about drinking the water in a creek--even though I don't, but I'm sure it is cleaner than the fly poop and gut juice that may be there already or will be there soon after the skin is removed. It can be removed, but you've just tripled or more the amount of work that finishing you meat will require, and reduced the amount that gets saved.


Also once the meat is exposed to the air a "rind" of dried out meat starts to form around the fresh meat. If your going to finish the processing right away, it's minor, but if it's going to be a few days of more, it's like jerky around your steaks. The air that dries it up also has dust and germs in it.

I think the best thing you can do (hunting in a few hours of home or a friend's home) is as soon as one person kills an animal, get it gutted, pelvis split, leave the hide on (especially if there is much dragging or packing to be done) get it in the truck and head for the hose. Hose it for an hour or more, it'll be really clean by then. Make sure to get lots of water over the rounds and shoulders too--don't just keep washing the body cavity. Then worry about the other tags that your buddy needs to fill. (better yet, have someone at home hosing, while the guys go back out--if you know what I mean ).

When the hunting is done, or in a day or two, go ahead and skin them where you hung them and the hose still reaches, and wash them plenty again when skinned. They're ready for the butcher block.

This info is for cool Wyoming weather, or for those that have coolers to hang animals in, and for those that didn't pack way into the wilderness. It's probably not right for those in Texas, Arizona, and places that aren't frosty at night, or snowy, when it's time to go hunting.

I used to hunt areas that opened on September 10, now they open on Sept. 20 or 26, but regardless it is 40-60 degrees during the day and from 20 to 40 degrees at night. All of the horse gear is mine, including the canvas panniers, and people may skin or not skin their elk quarters, as they wish. Once they've been quartered they both make a mess of my panniers.
In 38 years only one individual who based everything he knew on his experience with beef has skinned his animal, and that might be because he shot it everywhere but the soles of its feet. Whether it was a moose or elk the only one that didn't get chilled out at night and keep fine was one shot through the front shoulders twice. It never froze at night and the meat around the wound began to sour, so we trimmed it, threw the rib cage away, and kept the loins in a cooler and the shoulders in game bags. End of problem, even though we were in camp for 10 days. There is no running water where I hunt to wash off quarters.
I confess we skinned and quartered a half dozen antelope killed during a hunt that Wyoming used to run in August because it was too hot, and we put them in coolers.
I don't like the dirt, hair, pine needles, leaves, fluids, and solids that get all over skinned quarters when people lapse into their slasher mode while gutting and skinning, nor the 1/4 inch dry rind that once was good meat that forms on the skinned quarters.
Nobody has ever convinced me that skinned game is better than game that wasn't skinned, only that I lose less meat when animals aren't skinned in the field. There is also less blood and gore on me after loading and unloading quarters with hides still on them from horses, putting them up on meat poles and taking them off, and loading and unloading them from the truck.
But a lot of this is just like "Which caliber is best for....", and I doubt minds will change.

skinning is optional. getting it cooled out quickly and thoroughly is not. do what it takes.