2 years ago I was supposed to go on an elk hunt in Canada,trip got cancled, any way.......the only scoped rifle I own is a Mod 7 in 308.
the outfitter told me I couldn't use it for elk because it wasn't enough gun,I told him I knew how to shoot it well and I planned on keeping my range max at 200 yds,and that I would be only taking head shot's.
he and my friends that were going all freaked out,saying it was the wrong thing to do,that head shooting an elk would be stupid as all hell.
when I asked why, they said it's just wrong.

any thoughts?

Nothing wrong if you can make the shot. You need another outfitter because the 308 is plenty of gun for Elk if you use a good bullet and you can shoot.

I personaly wouldn't take a head shot unless it was the only shot I had and probably not then either. I saw a guy shoot one in the head and just blow the jaw apart, luckily he was able to get another round in the vitals a few minutes later. Watching that elk run around with it's jaw hanging has made me rethink that shot. The vitals are a much bigger target and just as deadly.

You're 308 is plenty of gun for elk. I don't know what those guys are thinking. I down load my 06 with a 165 tsx to 308 levels for my wife and she has killed elk out to 270 yds, no problem. A 150 gr bullet would be fine also.

Being in Canada, maybe they want you to have something bigger for personal bear protection.

Kent

If you can make the shot fine.The only down side I see of head shots is that the animal does not bleed out a swell as a lung shot

First, the outfitter is a nitwit. The .308 is plenty of cartridge for elk, since it basically duplicates moderate .30-06 factory loads--and anybody who says the .30-06 isn't enough for elk is a double nitwit.

A guy who claimed to shoot everything in the head, because he was such a fantastic shot, moved into an area I often hunt in Montana maybe 15 years ago. For the next few years, local hunters kept running into animals with their jaws shot off, or holes in their ears. The claim that many make (including his particular guy) that head shots either kill clean or miss clean is not true.

Well, I'm with the outfitter and your friends concerning head shots. (I think the caliber is fantastic and ridiculously more than adequate) A lot of folks here CAN do it, but few (note I said few) do. Don't be a hero. Put it in the boiler and be freaking done with it. No one will think you're any less of a man, nor will they think you're any less of a hunter or marksmen. Mule Deer's logic above suffices just fine and I'm in total agreement.

Yep....any outfitter that says the .308 aint enough for elk is sayin something about his or her shooting skills, or questioning yours. The .308 is plenty....

Other than that....as for head shots, well if you can make it then go for it. Personally on elk I like takin out the lungs and blowing through a shoulder if possible.....

Animals are always moving their heads around--it is part of their defense/awareness behaviors. It would be a tough target to hit. Even if you can shoot 1/4 inch groups at 100 yards, the target may no longer be where your 1/4in is at.

If you can blow balloons up to about the size of an elk's brain (a little bit bigger than your fist), and tie then on a string so that they can move erratically in the breeze, and hit them 95% at a given range, then in my book you would be ready to go for head shots at that range. But having shot a lot of blowing balloons, I doubt I could do it at much more than 50 yards. But I can hit chest sized balloons at 200 yards plus quite readily.

I think a .308 on a standard chest shot would have a high probability of being fatal at a far greater distance than I would have any hope of hitting small blowing balloons.

I guided for elk hunters for several years. By far, my finest hunter was a retired postman who shot a .308 Winchester. The rifle was an early-Remington 700, his scope was a 2-7 Leupold and he shot either 150-grain Remington Pointed Corelokts or, later, 150-grain Hornady Spire Points.

This was pre-lazer days, but my hunter knew how far 200 yards was and he steadfastly refused to shoot further. So every year I would set him up for a shot and every year he cleanly killed his elk.

He'd double lung the elk ... no fancy stuff ... just a single shot through both lungs that usually holed the aorta and the elk tumbled off the slope.

More importantly, the man could walk and was not afraid to dive into canyons with me.

The most important things in elk hunting are being able to walk, patience, being able to go where the elk are, being totally familiar with your rifle and scope, spending lots of trigger time and being able to take the time that it takes to place that ONE SHOT precisely on target.

The magazines have to sell print and the factories have to sell guns. Regardless of all the promotion and chaff, most good deer cartriges do a very decent job on elk. I've killed elk cleanly with a .25-'06 and have killed lots with a .280 & 280 Ackley with 120BTs and 140BTs. And the .30-'06 with 150-grain Hornady Interlockeds is stellar.

It does not take a 300 Ultra Whiz Bang. It takes a hunter, a rifleman and a decent rifle/cartridge.

Yeah, your outfitter is mentally challenged. But then, so was the rancher I hunted with for so long in Alberta ... according to my friend Philip, the .308 simply bounced off of deer, elk and mooses, yet his .25-'06 killed them perfectly. And most of the local guys used Browning BLRs in .243 Winchester for moose ... and they worked perfectly.

Being a hunter and taking the time to place the bullet perfectly is the most important thing in any hunting. Period.

Steve

There you have it!!

Ain't it a bitch that the most important things in hunting is stuff that you cannot buy????

Being able to walk, patience, marksmanship, trigger time, knowing the animal, scouting, waiting for the animal to position himself for the shot, perfectly placing that ONE SHOT.

All of it is stuff that you cannot buy ... and it is PRICELESS!!!!

All else is total bullshit.

Steve

No one has ever said it better.

BMT

dogzapper, perfectly said.

Kent

The only good head shot is the one with the animal either facing directly toward you, or directly away. That way, if you hit a little off of your intended POI, but still on hair, it's a kill shot. Otherwise, it's a miss. The only way you might wound the animal, as MD said, is if you shoot a hole through an ear.

With that being said, so far I have never had the need to take a head shot.

Oh, and BTW, load that .308 with a good 150-180gr bullet and it should work just fine.

Head shot?

Damn rights, when I'm up close and have an elk absolutely dead to rights, I'll bust them in the head. In fact, my last bull was a decent 300-point 6X5 and I was maybe ten yards behind him. I eased the rifle up and shot him at the base of the skull. LIGHTS OUT.

Actually, I had no other shot, but what I had was just fine and dandy. Made a great corpus delicious to work on because the .284" 120-grain Ballistic popped a carotid on the way out.

Not PC, but am I ever???? I don't write for the funnybooks any more, so I can do that.

Steve

You DAMN sure shouldnt shoot one in the head with a Ballistic Tip!!!! The nerve of some people!! Only thing better would have been to shoot that ol bull with a 243win and BT's...in the head.....

Hell, YES. A couple of years ago, I shot a buck near Jordan, Montana. I was working up a hillside in the early morning (OK, maybe it was pushing dark a wee bit ) and came upon a really heavy-horned buck that had his head shoved through a tree ... looking at me. The range was maybe 50 feet. I put a 120 Ballistic right between his frickin' eyes.

Hey, you PLAY DIRTY out there. If the shot is absolutely there and you ain't gonna blow it, take it!!!

Of course, you always take the time to set up the shot .... but sometimes you take your time incredibly fast.

Steve

a head shot is perhaps the most unethical shot you can take, and a tremendous opportunity for the anti's to get hunting taken away from us. none of you is good enough to make that shot. i will say it again NONE of you, myself included is good enough to take an ethical shot on game. too many variables involved- you may luck into it once but more often an animal will be horribly wounded and die a slow and very painful death. any responsible and worthy sportsman will agree. if you want hunting taken away just keep speaking of this type of action. no one is more pro-gun and pro-hunting than i am but to think of an animal walking around starving to death because someone did something so stupid as try to take a head shot...once you see it you won't forget it. i can not say it enough just let the anti's get wind of this or better yet get it on film and you will have given them more than money can buy. it is unethical and irresponsible every time. please think about this it is not worth it, besides do any of you know the size of a deer or elk's brain?

I will open by saying that, pending the unforseen, all elk in my crosshairs will be facing a 210gr tsx from my .340 Wby. If your outfitter liked the idea of larger calibers for elk I can understand but to simply dismiss a .308 as not being able to take elk is just silly, especially with the arrival of the new premium bullets. I've been staring real hard at a stainless T3 Lite in .308 of late. (didn't somebody mention a lot of walking earlier?)

I've never liked headshots on game animals. The actual target is quite small and the head is the most likely part of an animal to move abruptly at any time which can lead to horrific wounds. Put a good bullet from an adequate caliber in the vitals and you've got your elk.

I always wonder about outfitters that frown on things that make so much sense...like the 308 for elk....ditto Partitions. I venture most people would be better armed with a 308 than with a 338 for just about anything in North America and most other places as well. And, in general, a 308 would certainly be better for lethal body shots on most a game animals than would a 22-250, 30-06, or even 460 Weatherby for headshots. (That doesn't mean I am opposed to the well-presented head shots described previously.)

And I gotta love this:



...cause it contains so much truth...

You probably have never taken a headshot before, have you?

An un-leaded bullet to the head and the animals is dead!<----you can quote me on that, I coined the term first!

I have shot many animals in the head and if you're a very good shot, it works wonders. I've never taken a headshot at more than 300 yards though.

Why not use a leaded bullet if it's a headshot?

Hey, when you are out in the bush killing schit, you just do the best you can. It ain't like the bozos on The Outdoor Channel.

Sometimes messing up a critter with a bullet in the back of the head at twenty yards is the best shot. Sometimes (often), the medula oblongata is perfect; sometimes, it's both carotids. And occasionally, you bust the bugger down with a bullet at the top of the tail. Hunting ain't a perfect world and you just do the best you can.

Of course, I haven't killed many elk nor have I seen hardly any elk killed, so all of my comments are strictly "in theory."

Steve

If Dogzapper says it....I usually listen.

Some great posts here......

Many years ago, we always had doe tag in our pocket while elk hunting Each member of our party had to bring a bottle of his favorite whiskey to camp and the first person to head shoot a doe won all the whiskey. I won a lot of whiskey back in those days, and never lost or maimed a doe.

There was one fellow that I always lost to if he made thehunt.He would always ask me before opening day if I wanted him to shoot one in the eye or ear. What ever I answered, that is what he did.

A mans got to know his limitations!!!!

A 40gr BT from a Swift WILL knock a BIG, WT, doe flat as a fritter at 300yds... if it is placed right where the neck meets the head... Thats not really legal in Kansas but I think he shot her in ... Colorado, maybe Texas..cant remember..

Amen, Thanks Steve!!!!!!!

Thanks for all the replies,I got a good education out of it.

Please trust me when I tell you that I was only willing to try the Head shot if it were there and at a reasonable distance.
I'm a firm believer in shutting down the boiler room or breaking a shoulder or both.
what I know about Elk could fit in a thimble, thats why I was amazed at the reaction I got when I proposed the head shot.the whole reason I proposed it was to let the guide know I wasn't going to wound anything with my "under powered" slug chucker.

I knew the 308 was enough for an Elk but I guess they have their reasons for caliber limitations.

thanks again fellas

Not you Dogzapper, but sadly that is true of a lot of the internet "advice"

Hemi

I just wanted to add that my comments on head shots have nothing to do with my friend Steve DZ, but were general comments on the nitwtits who ONLY shoot for the head, regardless of range, wind, etc., and the claim head shots only kill clean or miss clean. How the hell they can tell when an animal runs off after the shot when some distance off I do not know.

Like Steve, I have shot more than one animal in the head (or precise parts of the neck) over the years. My wife has too, most notably a fallow deer she shot for the lodge table in New Zealand last year. But in each case we knew within a fraction of an inch where the bullet would go, and the range and conditions were right.

But when such precision might not be possible, we owe it to the animal to play the odds and go for the chest.

Only under very specific circumstances would THIS lug nut take a head shot. If things are up close and steamy, I'm too shaky, as evidensed by my rather humbling [bleep] on my buck this year. If it's farther away, it's probably too far for me to be shooting at such a small target. I'm sure somewhere in there is a circumstanse where a head shot would be an acceptable shot given my skills... maybe... <grin>

I guess it comes down to knowing, and respecting, your own personal limitations or lack thereof. For a cold blooded assassin things might be different but killing is very intense for me.

I have taken a neck shot similar to the one DZ mentions except the buck was coming towards me. I figured I had all kinda latitude vertically so I just put the vert crosshair on the spine and let 'er rip. Dumped the buck as you'd expect.

I would guess, just a WAG, that a lot of blown-off jaws are the result of guys sighted in way high at 100 yards, then taking a 30-yard head shot and forgetting to aim high...

I was hunting elk near John Day, Oregon and a small herd of elk was spooked to me. I heard them coming so just froze and waited. They stopped about twenty yards in front of me. A bull was perfectly lined up on the far side of a cow. I already had the rifle to my shoulder and just waited for the cow to lower her head. When she did I took the bull right where the skull is bolted onto the neck. I used a .338 WM with handloaded 210 gr. Nosler Partitions. Elk tipped over. I'm thinking a .243 Win. would have done the same thing. I simply took the shot that was available, the double lung was not available.

1flier

Medula oblongata. Kills the heck out of elk and deer. It's a spot shot, but it is the perfect kill. Shuts down all of the central nervous system most rickey-tick.

I've used that shot quite a bit. Another shot that is wonderfully deadly is very slightly lower on the neck and it severs both carotids. Both shots require a perfect rest, fairly close range and that the animal be as still as possible. I've never ever screwed up one of these shots, but I am very, very, very careful.

hey, if the animal scoots, you can always shoot the friggin lungs; that's bigger than a handkerchief, for pity's sake!!!!

In fact, I killed an Asian water buffalo with my .280 Ackley by severing both carotid arteries with a 154 Hornady Interlocked. He simply rolled over and gushed a fountain of blood three feet in the air. Another perfect kill.

Steve

My cousin who lived out here in he West since 1964, killed 22 bull elk with his pre-'64 Win. 70 Featherweight .308 Win., and I don't know how many Mule deer, several Black bear, etc. He used standard factory ammo, 180 grains bullets, as he did not reload.

He never lost an elk and he never made head shots.

The outfitter who told you the .308 Win. was "not enough gun" for elk, doesn't know much about rifle calibers and elk hunting.

FWIW.

L.W.

AMEN. Although no one is perfect, I have learned that DZ's word is absolutely reliable.

BMT

The two best head-shots I ever made were total opposites, one completely accidental and the other perfectly deliberate.

The accident was on the first good whitetail buck I ever killed, a 5x5. He jumped from behind a lone juniper in a coulee in eastern Montana, running very fast, and I swung the .270 with him and shot as the crosshairs passed his chest. He rolled like a rabbit, and it turned out the 130 Sierra had taken him just behind the ear. The bullet broke his skull on the far side, the antler flopping down--the reason that in the few surviving photos I have both antlers grasped in my hands.

The other was a springbok on a cull shoot in South Africa a few years ago, where we were commanded to take head shots if at all possible. I was sitting in a turn-table rest when a female ran up about 100 yards away, directly upwind, and saw something suspicious. She stood there with her head up, looking at me, perfectly still. My .30-06 was sighted-in 2" high at 100 yards, so I put the crosshairs on her nose and pulled the trigger.

A few minutes later the PH and Chub Eastman (an old friend of both mine and Steve DZ's) drove up to pick up dead springbok. They got out to pick up the "ewe," then drove over to me. Chub got out, grinning, then pointed to the bullet hole, so perfectly between the eyes I couldn't have drawn it there. Lucky too--but also a dead rest and an accurate rifle. I can't remember if Chub took the skull home or not.

But the wind was strong enough that day that at any springbok over 100 yards I aimed for the chest.

John:

That is funny that one of your best head shots is an accident.

Mine--brain stem on a CA wild Hog--was also. A rookie (me) with an iron sighted Savage 99 in 308 and 150 grain corelokts.

Offhand at 200 yards on a walking hog.

Logically, I should have never taken the shot.

Today, I would have used a tight sling from the sitting position -- and shot at the chest.

But hey, its the shot all my buddies still talk about . . .

BMT

There is nothing wrong with the 308 for elk. I'd get a Federal 180gr HE load and not look back. Head shots are another story. Holes in the ear are not big deal, just ask your local teenager but a blown off jaw is another story. There you are condeming the animal to a slow death of starvation and that's not right.

[email protected] not enough gun on elk. .308 can be used on anything in NA. Personally I'd rather not take a head shot but if you wish to, knock yourself out. It's all good.

It's tiring after a while to see how caught up some are with the magnum craze. In the end, you just don't need magnums for over 90% of all shots on all game in NA.

I would only take a head neck or just a head shot if the opportunity presents it self. 50 yards and under I don't want another shot, if the animal is in the right position to me. I'm a meat hunter, and for a meat hunter a head or head/neck shot is the golden shot.

I've killed every north American deer with a .250-3000, including a lot of moose with one shot, but I'm not sure if a .308 Win can do it on elk? I think they are impervious to a .308. Wait a second I remeber all the caribou and moose I've killed with a .223 remington and know that it can't be done with a lowly .308. Just don't use Remington Ballistic tips and there is not and animal that walks the Americas, that won't fall to a well placed shot.

I remember the guy that shot a large grizzly while fishing with his 9mm at Copper landing a few years back, I wonder if a .308 would have been enought gun?

Least we forget the hundreds of thousands of elk killed by the .30-.30. Further proof that a .308 Win won't work on elk.

ah geez.. You really need to disable your keyboard for a decade or two.

Too funny!
Could it be that "More wag. Less bark." really means "more Wild Azz Guessing and less Being Able to Really Know"?

Wow...

Another footprint on the ol' tongue.......

I suspect the outfitter claimed you needea bigger gun becasue he figures that big magnums offer a crutch to the mostly poor shooters he sees. I typicaly see this in many of those who profess you need a big thumper

...which generally doesn't help.

Made an accidental head-shot on a mule deer buck three years ago... Buck took off running and was at about 125 yards - I swung ahead of it, shot and the buck simply folded up. Done. Nice...

I was hoping for a base-of-the-neck shot, but got too far out in front and ended up with a perfect shot - in the ear and out the eye. No ruined meat on that one! My youngest son was with me and is still convinced that I made that shot on purpose to show off... I'm lucky I hit the deer...

In the late 80's my best friend drew his first lope tag here in Az. He had a Rem 700 270 he had bought used a few years earlier. When we left the truck I asked him if he had extra shells with him. He said, I've got 8 with me, if I can't kill one with that many I don't deserve one. Ha Ha. (in his story he says 11, I know it was 8)

We walked out and saw a herd a mile away and tried to get on them. After about 6 hrs of walking and being dumped on by rain twice we finally gave up , headed back. A mile from the truck we took a break on a knob and was glassing around. Back 1/2 mile we see a lone buck walk into a depression with scattered cedar trees.

My buddy's tired but decides to head back after the buck, I wait on the knob to watch with my binos. He goes into the depression and I see the buck sneak back out and hide behind a cedar. Because of the slope my friend can't see the buck, he just happen to walk out the same way as the lope. He finally gets high enough and sees the lope, 100 yds away, I could tell he was suprised by his body language. He shoots, miss. The buck goes to the next cedar 40 yds away and peeks around. My buddy walks up higher and sees the buck again, same thing, shoot, miss. This scene repeats itself like a bad dream, jump to the next cedar and peek around.

By the fifth shot I'm on the ground with tears in my eyes laughing so hard, even though I could feel my friends frustration. After the seventh shot the lope walks out of the cedars and into the open. My friend finally doen't have to deal with the slope and can get down for a steady shot, one bullet left, takes his time. Shoots and the buck drops, DRT.

My buddy goes and sits next to the lope. I get there and say, Well that was a heck of a show. He shakes his head and says, You know I can shoot better than that, I don't know what was wrong with me. I look at the buck and see a perfect Base of skull/neck shot. I said, You made a great shot with your last one, head shot. He says, Bull, I was shooting at his chest.

Now a few years later my wife starts hunting and I decide to buy a gun just for her. My friend says he'll sell me that 270 if I can get it to shoot. I take it out and can't even keep the shots on paper, what the heck. I take it back home and start to take it out of the stock and the front action screw is missing, Duh.

It is now my wife's go to gun and has killed plenty of stuff.

Kent

Under normal circumstances the .308 is a capable elk rifle..I would not shoot an elk up the keyster going away from me with it, and maybe the guide hunted in the thick stuff, I don't know all the details..I use a .338 with 300 gr. Woodleighs in Idahos thick stuff.

The head shot is fine if you can make the shot, but you do pose a rish of breaking the jaw and the animal gets away and dies a horrible death, and that is a fact. I have seen this happen more than a few times and have dispatched such animals in stages of suffering...

I prefer a heart/lung shot.

I always try for the head shot first on my elk. Used to use my 270 extensively. I never had a problem with a head shot. I wish I could have gotten a head shot at the cow I shot saturday, and I wish I had my trusty 270. I had my 300 win mag with 180gr partitions at 3100fps. I took the behind the shoulder shot becuase she had her head down behind a tree. The bullet deflected a little off of the back of the shoulder side I was shooting and hit the bone one the shoulder on the exit side, and it totally ruined all the meat on the shoulder and down the rib cage. To much gun would have rather had my 270 with 150gr core lokts.

my 270 probably has 20+ elk on it 2 6X6 bulls. 308 is plenty of gun. http://www.broncolope.com

Put some more gas in it, didn't ya?

That should get this thread back on the road...

The common wisdom says head shots are lower percentage than a shoulder/behind-the-shoulder shot. I agree with that idea. But, with a 308 under 200 yds and the right bullet you can shoot an elk anydamnwhere you please........

For the past 40 years, my dad intentionally shoots most of his elk in the neck.....


Casey

It wasn't the first time I talked to a guide that said if it's a moose or elk or something biggger than a deer it had to be magnum.

before the elk trip got canceled I was practicing to make sure I could make my shot,head or shoulder, but I guess alot of guy's show up without having done the prep work so the guides get a little wary of flat landers that say they can shoot.

I like a neck shot at most any angle, just leary of a broadside headshot. Aiming at the brain or eye doen't leave much room for error, field conditions, rest and distance would be the deciding factor. Practice and experience breeds confidence, most guys here would have no problem pulling it off. I just wouldn't recomend it to a new hunter/shooter, go for the shoulder or neck instead.

A magnum isn't going to help with a bad shot and a nonmagnum isn't going to fail with a good shot.

Kent

I'm not reading all the posts... but bottom line, the brain, brain stem and surrounding bone around the brain and the arteries/veins in the area are actually a fairly large target. And its not only a head shot that has issues. Lets say the target is the heart, and you are a bit low and off to the side, you break the front leg off.. There are chances with any shot. The only way to be sure is to take only a shot you are 200% sure of.

I used to do a lot of head shots with a smaller caliber until I missed low by a bit and had a light bullet blow up on front teeth. That one made me sick. And since then I only take head shots with 30 cal and up guns generally, but that starts at 308. And goes as far up as 338.378. haven't had any issues as the bigger impacts shatter a LOT of bone in the head. Much more so than smaller calibers.

The end call will be yours. I've been good on head shots out to something over 565 yards... Generally won't take a shot at over 250 though. But I also will say I won't take it if Im' not totally steady etc....

We used to call which eye or ear etc..... Not that I'm pushing it, but it demanded and recieved accuracy when you narrowed it down.

All this being said, I just passed on a doe I wanted to take at 5 yards because I couldn't get it right at 5 yards. As bad as I wanted to just fling a shot, I could not move and get it 200% so passed. The important part is much more up to you, decision wise, and choosing a bullet thats capable(not a stupid 52 grain high speed varmint bullet because its what you had...) and you'll be fine.

I'd probably be just fine with a 150 tsx... or even 130 tsx and precise placement, whether thats head or ribs.

Jeff

Bronco, swap to the TSX, you won't see that much damage from the big gun... 168 tsx in the 300s do a solid job and kill well but don't blow stuff all to heck.

BTW I had some serious penetration issues with 180 partitions in 300wtby on elk size nilgai.....I won't use em again. Nilgai died, but barely.

Jeff

That's okay, I had a 270cal 150gr Ballistic Tip blow up on the molars of an elk......of course I wasn't aiming for the head, he was already wounded from another of my BT's and wheeled just as I pulled the trigger......mine wasn't pretty either.....

Casey

Yes, I know the size of a deer and an elks brain. I also fail to see how starving to death is the only outcome in your scenario. How is that worse than an animal dying a slow death from infection from a gut shot? Or the agony of death from a liver shot? Or of being eaten alive by predators? A bad shot is a bad shot no matter where it is.

I also fail to see where me shooting my deer in the head from 20 yards is unethical. He stuck his head up over a downed tree looking straight at me. Took out his bottom jaw and the back of his skull. Hitting a tennis ball offhand at 20 yards with a rifle is not much of a challenge.

I have never not-recovered any animal I attempted to shoot in the head. I have had to leave other "proof of sex" attached because not enough of the head remained to identify the sex. I don't think that antelope knew it was an unethical shot.

You are entitled to your opinion, just realize it's only an opinion. Don't judge other peoples abilities by your self-imposed limitations.

After a summer of shooting P-dogs at 300 yards an elk is an absolute giant in the scope.

Yes, I shot my elk in the head this year as well, after putting 2 shots through her lungs. She was on the ground and would have died within the next couple minutes anyway but I still had ammo. How is that head shot unethical?

Kent

If you'd look at the realistic target size and shape of neck vs head, you'd realize your neck shot is a much iffier target than a head ever will be. Its long, narrow, oblong, while the head is a larger more circular target. With the correct round, hitting the brain its done for and even around the edges of the brain, generally the impact will crack the skull etc...
While a neck, if high its flesh, if low it might catch an artery or vein, butmight also just clip the windpipe/esophagus. Plus the spine in the neck is not dead center all the way, it has to get from the high back bone to the neck and then shift back to the rear of the skull. While the brain is simply centered between eyes and ears and has a vertical factor also.

thats just from me skinning and deboning more than one just looking to see whats vital and whats not. I had a photo thread on it some time back, maybe 2-3 years back. Clearly showed where the vitals in each were.

Just my take on it. But a proper shot to either is quick and not messy. I was simply raised to do the head, not the neck.

Jeff

I preffer the "Head and Neck" shot If the animal is looking right at you (very common by the time we notice them they are already looking at us - lol)
or if they are going straight away. If you put the cross hairs on the back of the head or between the eyes you have many inches of drop for a good kill.

Granted you have to be good left and right, so windy conditions rule out this shot for me. If I think the wind will move the bullet I will go for the boiler room.

From those 2 directions the neck is a better target than from the side. Flesh wound is still there on the edges but center will take flesh, spine and windpipe/esophagus, and not just one of those...

I know the feeling on elk. Generally they have seen us if we are walking. When sitting, its the other way around though. Funny that the elk at least give us a chance, our whitetails sure don't.

Bottom line is nothing is surefire 100% of the time. Even a double lung with a bullet can heal over and be just fine.

Jeff

Jeff, you're right with your responce. Even those of us with alot of experience can only evaluate a situation from past circumstances. That's what I like about these types of conversations. It makes you think beyond your own small world and realise you don't know it all. I've taken one neck shot and seen numerous others and they have all been positive. I suggested a head shot to a shooter once and it was negative, blown off jaw. I still feel guilty about that and thus my bias. I know myself and most guys here can make that shot, I just shouldn't be suggesting it to someone else.

I'm mainly a bow hunter except for coues deer. I do take alot of family and friends rifle hunting every year though. I think I will add a headshot to their prehunt practice and evaluate each person to see if they would be comfortable with it or not.

Great thread for me at least, Thanks.

Kent

Kent

From my experience in learning how to shoot and coaching others, a blown jaw is from someone who yanks the trigger. If you have one that is not a good shot I say stick with ribcage. Neither neck or head.

As to head shot locations, I've pretty much gone to an elevation of eyes or above for all head shots. That gives me clean miss if high and a few inches of leeway low to still catch brains/stem. IE I'm not aiming at the center of the mass, but more about the top 1/3.

I used to not be capable and many days still am not. While I prefer head shots on meat hunts, once I look at the head, depending on range and stability I know whether to shoot or move to a larger target. I've had 300 plus yard shots on heads that were easy, and less than 100 where I just couldn't do it.

I used to do bow, over 100 animals over the years. Kinda got boring to me and for some reason I'm back with a rifle again.

Jeff

Jeff, I'm coming to that point with archery myself. You've been at it longer than I have, I've been bow hunting since '82. Like you, except for elk, lately I would just rather use a rifle. After so many years putting so much time in archery, I don't know why I find myself feeling this way, who knows.

The last few years I would rather take someone out and see the excitment of them scoreing than me just going out and killing another animal. Just at that stage I guess. Had a great year, 7 elk, 5 archery, 2 rifle, and 1 world record spike coues deer taken by a young man that had never hunted in his life. I killed a lion, bear and coues myself, didn't mean as much as that spike though.

Kent

I totally agree with dogzapper. Another thing to think about is the animal always has the last word. During second season here in Colorado I had a herd of about 25 running in my direction about 150 yards away. They saw me running towards them and still kept coming. I immediately dropped to the knee position and placed my scope on the lead cow. I tols myself, first legal bull in the glass gets it. Luckily enough a 5 point showed and my crossharis on the lung, heart area, I shot and saw him fall stone cold. I waited about 10 minutes still sighted on him in case I screwed the shot up. No movement and when my head cleared from the whole thing I finally cautiously walked up to him, one eye on the scope the other on him. When I got to my bull he was facing away from me, spun around with a neck shot. Now you tell me I didnt see it happen, but he must have saw me, then turned away an the very instant I pulled the trigger. Good thing I wasnt going for a head shot.

Like others here, I think the .308 Win is more than enough for elk, but I wouldn't shoot at the same ranges with mine that I would my .300.

As to head shots, I'd only take one at close range and if the animal was standing still. I like mine behind the front leg.

The 308 is plenty of gun for elk and don't let anyone tell you different. I have only made two head shots, that weren't mercy shots. One was a doe deer that wouldn't turn for the shot and one was a calf elk in it's bed. Both shots were to the back of the head. Gun was rested on a tree both times and the range was under 25 yards. Those are the nly times I couldn't get at least a quartering away angle, and at that range with a rest I would certainly do it again.

I'll pass on the head shots on elk. Over the years I've talked with too many hunters who had these shots go bad for them and lost animals after shooting off jaws. Each considered themselves good marksmen and capable of the shot. They also felt somehow it would be a more instantaneous and humane kill to aim for the head, although this didn't prove to be the case.
A shot for the heart-lung area may not always prove the perfectly executed shot but given it's size and margin for error as compared to the head it is by far a much higher percentage shot.

270

The margin for error is the main reason I've only shot two animals in the head. Both times I was extremely close and the animals were standing, or laying, still, and I had a rest.

If folks are taking jaws off then these same folks will take the leg off if trying for the heart. IE bottom line is they are not as good as they think they are and or don't have a clue as to what limitations are.

Head shots work very well, yet again last weekend(I generally use head shots here most of the time) I had to pass a head shot again in a bad situation. Was plenty close but a moving target. The call of if you shoot is a personal one that needs to be done responsibly, regardless of the target.

There have been days when 500 plus is still a head shot, there are days when 50 is not a head shot. And many inbetween. Right now my hunting area most shots are 200-300 yards out. Easy head range for me since I hunt from a blind and have a solid shooting platform, yet I doubt i'll ever take a head shot as the deer are always moving. Moving too much to make me comfortable.

Jeff

Jeff

The 308win is fine for elk.As to head shots,I don't take then.The myth that a head shot will either provide a clean kill,or a clean miss is total B.S.A wounded animal can escape with a damaged jaw,a lost eye,a concussion,a damaged jugular or a nasty flesh would.