Ok both guns weigh the same, both shoot just as accurate, the shooter has no problem shooting either very well. Is there any real world difference between the 30-06 and the 300 win mag out to 450 yards on elk?

My answer is "yes, but".

Yes, the 300 shoots a 200 grainer as fast as the 30-06 shoots a 180 grainer.

But in a world of TSX boolits, both will give you exit wounds.

BMT

the elk probably wont be able to tell the differance. MOST people have no business shooting (AT)elk at 450 yards

I shoot a 300 WSM which is very close to the 300 WM. I'd never try a 450 yd shot but I have shot a couple elk at about 300. A 30-06 will normally do just fine at that range. I was actually after a 30-06 when I bought it but it only came with a front sight while the 300 came with a clean barrel.

A rifleman who practices with his hunting rifle and varmint rifles during the offseason can make shots on elk at 450 or so yards and I have done it a couple of times. At that range, I like my 300 and 338 magnums, but to be truthful, I have never tried an Elk at that riange with anything but one of these. I feel more confident with my fast 30's and 33's and my experiences in Africa thell me there is a real world difference in killing power but Elk really are not all THAT big and a whole lotta Elk have been converted to bite sized chunks by the 30/06. With an '06 loaded with the Barnes 168 TTSX, a known range, an unsuspecting elk and a good rest I would pull the trigger at 450.... but i would still RATHER have a big 300 or fast 33. Clear as mud, right?

I think the 30-06 is perfectly capable of the shot, but I would personally feel more comfortable with a 300 magnum of some type. I'd stay with the 180gr bullet. I choose my cartridges and bullet based on what is perceived as the "optimal impact velocity" for that particular bullet. A nice, handy 30-06 with a 22 or even 24 inch barrel is great in the woods where shots will be between 50 and 150 yards. At those ranges, a 180gr Nosler Partition opens up reliably and penetrates at 30-06 velocity.

If ranges are beyond that, I'm assuming that the country is more open and a handy rifle isn't as necessary. For that, why not choose a 26 inch barreled 300 that pushes that same 180gr partition at velocities pushing 400 fps faster. That way, the same impact velocity at 150 from a 30-06 will occur further downrange with the 300. This will give you good, reliable expansion at the more distant ranges.

I have been practising with a Remington 700 police in HS Precision stock with a 24 fluted match barrel. We reworked the recoil lug.
With 150 gr. TSX Federal factory ammo 3" groups were regular from bipod in the field with myself shooting.

Not great, I am sure any number of dedicaties would be able to better that.

But good enough for hunting any game including roe deer at that range. I have been trying. For the life of me, have not been able to get in a shot further than 150 yards. Country open enough, just me, silly. Always could get closer.

Difference between .300 WM and .30-06 is the .300s ability to carry the heavy (180 gr. / 200gr.) further with flatter trajectory.

I've killed a couple at about that distance with the 300 Win Mag.I can tell you that it kills them,and pretty quickly,too with a solid chest hit.

I have seen the 30/06 used at about 375 yards;it killed them,too.

I would not want to get in the way of a 30/06 slug at 450 yards.This is anecdotal,but a reliable friend reports using the 30/06 in the SanJuan's with 165 Partition,and being faced with one of those last day "do or die" situations at about 500 yards,stuck a 165 Partition from his 30/06 into the base of a bull's neck as it quartered away a bit; the bullet traveled up the length of the neck and blew out near the head.This was,of course,a very dead elk.

I know the rifle, the shooter,and the load,since I helped him work it up; he was no doubt very lucky that day,but it impressed on me that the 30/06 is no toy,and likely better than many people who shoot it.

laker �

If the shooter is not prepared to take advantage of the additional range the .300 Win can offer, there isn�t much reason to use it. That is not the same, however, as saying there is �no� reason.

A .30-06 with the right 165-168g load is capable of delivering 2000fps and 1500fpe past the 500 yard line with a manageable drop. That is more than enough to take an elk cleanly, but I still prefer the advantage the .300 WM gives me at that range.

I have taken Elk with the 30-06, 300 Weatherby, 338 Win and the 338 Lapua. The 30-06 has put Elk on the ground as fast as any of ther other calibers for me and I have complete confidence in the 30-065 with a proper bullet to take Elk at or beyound 500 yards.

The 30-06 just flat out works

Exactly...

I totally agree with this statement. If you are buying a 300WM to do 450yrd shots, I would first learn/practice how to call elk, bring them in (thats the fun part) and stalk to within closer ranges to make a good clean kill.

Comparing 180gr bullets in each caliber, the 300WM will have more velocity and delivery more energy at 450yrds.

Problem is, they don't always come and getting closer is not always an option.

Laker I certainly think so! The 30-06 was deemed a 350 yard caliber in a hunting rifle, by those who hunted with it starting from several decades ago. They took into account the trajectory at usually a 250 yard zero. Once the Magnum caliber's hit the public starting back in 1958 there abouts, it allowed a hunter to increase his down range yardage by at least a 100 yards or more.

Also there is a big difference in kinetic energy delivered to the animal at say 200 yards, 30-06 with 180 grn. bullet weight has 2300-lbs. at a Max velocity of around 2770fps. Now the .300 Win mag with same 180 grn. bullet and having a faster velocity of at least 250fps, is going 3,000fps and kinetic energy is around 2700-lbs.

I have handloaded my 300 Win mag with same bullet to a Max of 3140fps, which gives 500-lbs more kinetic energy than the 30-06. However, there is a price to pay for all things gained and that is RECOIL with a capitol "R"! This can ruin a shooters accuracy down range. There are by the way several devices to tame Recoil down so as the shooter can handle the jump in caliber.

Now I have seen with my own eyes, elk shot with a 30-06 passed 400 yards and killed dead as a door nail. I have seen elk shot with a .300 Win mag at close to 600 yards and killed just as dead. However, I view the yardage difference as 100 yards between them period.

I don't shoot 500 or 600 yards for elk or deer! I would shoot at a bull elk with a 30-06 as far out as 350 yards, if things were just right etc. They are both very good calibers but Craig Boddington says, minimum calbier for elk is a 30-06 with 180 grain bullet. I used a 300 Win mag a lot, when I was hunting elk a long time ago. It is really a grand big game caliber, that you can find shells for just about any place out West.

If you have one, you really don't need the other.

In the interest of full disclosure, I do have a couple of '06s, a .300 WM, a .300 WSM and a .300 Wby.--but I only hunt with one at a time. I got rid of the .30-338 because it seemed redundant...

At 450 yards I think either will work fine. With good bullets and good bullet placement I dont see a HUGE difference.

I have a personal place for a 30-06, though also I'm not the kind of guy shooting at elk at 450 most times. I did a hunt on the OPEN prairies this year.....not a shrub/tree/bush on the entire area I hunted. This is an honest statement, its the most open country a guy could hunt. Ended up shooting my bull at 328 yards and was lucky......

Magnum. I'd use the 180 grain bullets, flatter tragectory, easier to hit with, not to mention more energy when it hits.

If you can handle the additional recoil the I would advise anyone to shoot all the gun they can..You can be under gunned but never over gunned...

I know for a fact that a 250 Savage will kill elk or a 25-35 for that matter, but in todays world with costly pack in hunts, they fact that you don't see many elk as a rule, etc..one never makes a mistake with the larger bores, but only if he can handle the recoil...My elk rifle is the 338 Win. is does its work under any conditions and I don't pass up shots that a lesser rifle might dictate, especially going away shots..You might not see another bull in Idaho if you pass one up these days, but you might get several wolves!! :):)

Laker years ago some gun rag stated that the "experts" agreed that a good elk rifle was one in a caliber that could deliver some 1,500 pounds of kinetic energy to the animal, nothing was said about the yardage downrange, just that most elk hunters shot elk at 100 to 300 yards for the most part back in those days.

Now first of all, I am old school and we never had any classes in physics or kinetic energy, for hunters back in my neck of the woods. I never saw an elk tagged out with how much kinetic energy killed the critter ok.

All I know for sure is the bullet must be placed into the vital zone of the animal and must do it's job of mushrooming out to near twice the caliber thereabouts and continue to penetrate the vital organs causing severe damage to said organs. Thus creating heart stoppage from loss or blood or even a blown up heart organ.

Now if both calibers using same bullet and velocities as above and zeroed in at 250 yards: The .300 Win mag shoots about 5 inches less or flatter at 400 yards, verses the 30-06 give or take an inch as my memory serves me ok.

And a GREAT BULL he was/is on your wall!

CoyoteHunter, I dont think everyone practices out to 450+ yrds. Some people do and the ones that know the ballistics of their caliber/load and spend the time at the range will make clean kills most of the time.

As for Rackmastr's bull he was in wide open prairie with no cover to stalk closer with out being seen would be my guess and from reading his posts on alot of hunting forums, I believe he knows his rifles.

I think too many people are watching those long shot kill videos at 800yrds and think they can do it. To me its unethical at those distances (800). I bet they don show those poor hit and no recovery animals.

J.M.O.

And for some of us, shooting cleanly and well at 400 or 450 yards is MORE fun than calling them in, even if we could. Not wrong or morally inferior, just different and both are OK. BTW, my #1 meat getter Elk rifle is a 8mm rem mag case necked up to .338 cal. Works great with Barnes 225gr TTSX's at 3150fps.

According to Federal factory ballistics, the .300 mag adds about 300 FPS to a 180 gr bullet. That equals about 150 yards.
With elk, on public land, I want them down fast.
On a broadside elk, eather calibur will do it, but will someone tell me where to find these elk that always stand broadside for you ?
Why take the chance on penatration issues ? If you can shoot the mag, shoot the mag, loaded with Partitions or the like.

That was the case MightyPeace. The bull was slightly spooked and was slowly moving away in an open draw. I had plenty of time to get ready and range him, get prone on my pack, and make the shot. If he had been much further I would have had to wait and attempt another stalk. I kinda set a limit of 350 yards as about my 'max' so thats why I stated I was 'lucky'. Lucky to just have a bull of that magnitude close enough for a shot in the bald prairies of Alberta...lol

Either way, I think you make some really good points about ability and knowing one's ability before attempting shots. I know I dont practice at distances over 400 enough to attempt shots that far. If its further than that, I'm belly crawling like crazy to get closer!

With the same weight bullet, say 180 grs., the .300 WM gives you about 200-250 fps. more velocity. That means that it's bullet will expand a little further out than the slower, '06 bullet. If that means much to you, then the .300 has an edge.
Since I've had the 160 gr. 7mm Nosler Partition expand quite well at almost 500 yds. when started at 2680 fps out of a .280, I have no doubt that the 180 gr. NP started at 2700-2800 fps. would also.
I would tend to favor the '06 over the .300 due to less recoil in the lighter rifles which I prefer. E

I read an interesting article where the author stated that with the right powders and lighter bullets {150 gr.} the 308 winchester could actually have a lil more muzzel velocity than a 30-06 but where the 30-06 shines over the 308 is when you start driving the heavy bullets 200 gr. and up the and 308 just does not have enuff fuel tank to launch a heavy bullet with the same authority as the 30-06 and I see this same comparison between the 30-06 and 300 mag...........

Energy doesn't kill elk and any hunter wobbles much more than 12" across the target when sighted from field positions at 400 yards. These academic debates about "killing power" of various cartridges is entertaining during the off season, but meaningless when chasing critters.

What counts is the hunting and shooting skills of the nut behind the rifle, not what's in the chamber.

If I were hunting elk and could shoot either of those rifles equally well and they were both the same weight I'd go w/ the 300 Mag.

That having been said, I hate recoil and don't own a belted mag, and wouldn't hesitate to take my 30'06 out after elk. It will, however, have to play back up to my 338'06 which would be my "go to," just as I think yours ought to be the 300.

There is a lot of talk here about long shots (>300 yards) at elk and I have no problem with them as long as the caveats met... that is, as long as I practice like a mad man during the off season and know my limits. My standard (when hunting deer-sized game) for that 5/5 into a pie plate at any given range.

A 300 win mag simply hammers critters harder at all distances.

This is proof that viagra and hunting do indeed have lots in common.

A 30-06 isnt a 300 win mag just as a 30-30 isnt a -06.
Simple concept and it doesnt have anything to do with ones d ic k.

"They are both very good calibers but Craig Boddington says, minimum calbier for elk is a 30-06 with 180 grain bullet."

Craig is a longtime friend, but I politely disagree. I have shot a few 6x6 bull elk with the .30-06, .the 7mm Remington Magnum, and the .270 Winchester, and all three did the job nicely.

It is impossible to say which is better for the job. There is only one degree of dead.

My personal favorite is the 7 mag with 175-grain Nosler Partition bullets, but that's only because I like to carry it.

Bullet placement is more important than caliber, velocity or weight, maker, or type of bullet.

Bill Quimby

I agree that shot placement is king, buts its not the whole story.
Shoot a elk with a 22 mag behind the shoulder and it will be dead on its feet. It also might run a mile or more with little to now blood. Now do the same with a 300 win mag with a decent bullet and it might drop in its tracks or make a short run bleeding profusely in the process..

i took a cow elk at 360 yards with my old 300 saum and 165gr partitions with the muzzle velocity at 2900. I have read where some people push the same bullet up to near 3000 with an 06. For the 06 there are always the light magnum, and high energy loads.

Yea but the question is can you put the bullet where it needs to go at 400 and over with a 300 mag. I can shoot the 300 mags very well, provided that I can take a good steady rest, and i'm not out of breath with my heart going 100mph.

"I agree that shot placement is king, buts its not the whole story.
Shoot a elk with a 22 mag behind the shoulder and it will be dead on its feet. It also might run a mile or more with little to now blood. Now do the same with a 300 win mag with a decent bullet and it might drop in its tracks or make a short run bleeding profusely in the process.."

With a .22 mag, a shot behind the shoulder would not be proper placement IMHO. I'd aim for where the spine meets the skull.

Bill Quimby

Judging by what I have seen if a guy cant shoot a 300 win mag worth a damn, he will not be any better with a 30-06.

Laker,

I'll say this, you would need to manage your bullet expectations. Given you might shoot from zero to 450 yrds I would choose a 165gr partition for the 30-06 or 180gr in the 300. I know many guys who choose a 180gr pill in a 300 mag and shoot it at everything. It's a close debate, but if you like the heavier bullets, go with the 300 Win.

CLB

billrquimby and BWalker

A couple of friends of mine and I were doing some sighting in before our elk hunt last year. One guy had a 270win, one guy had my 270wsm, and I had my 300saum. At 200 yards neither was hitting very well at first. After doing some flinching drills, the first of which just involved them shooting a round recocking the bolt and dry firing on the empty case. After this first drill both couldn't believe they were flinching as bad as they were even though they knew the gun wasn't going to fire. After awhile of that, I had them hand me the rifle to either load or not load then hand back to them which helped their groups considerably. Now that they were shooting well enough (within a 4in sqare at 200 every time from the bench) I let them have a go with my 300 saum. After only a few shots it was clear that this wasn't an option for them, and yes the flinches had returned. I had a .338 winmag that had me flinching so much with the anticipation of the recoil that I sold it.

It is my experience that the lighter the recoil the more accurate a person is going to shoot. I for instance shoot my .270wsm more accurately than my 300saum, but in my case the difference is so small as to be insignificant; therefore I prefer to hunt elk with the 300.

Incidently after I had shot my cow, I was spotting with them when we spotted a herd 550 yards down hill of a very steep slope. Both of them wanted to shoot, I told them I would beat them both if they did. We needed to get waaaaaay closer. We did, and they both got their elk.

Edited to add: If you shoot a magnum well go for it, the extra power might help, probably won't hurt.

When my youngest son killed his first elk he did it with a Husky 30.06 and Nosler 180gr partition at a lasered 310 yds. The bull was slowly walking ,his guide gave him the "Shoot" and he did. The bull continued to walk as he put another one in him both right behind the shoulder. He walked maybe 20 yards and fell as Jerry Clower would have put it "Graveyard dead". We walked to the bull and he said "Dad what do you think?" I said "Son, I think you were about 1/4" off on your aim?.
The postmortem was interesting to me because of the damage done in the chest. The heart was severed from the great vessels and the lungs were completely blown up. One bullet was recovered and one penetrated completely.
I don't regard myself as an elk hunting authority but I do consider myself an authority on animal pathology. This elk was dead before he knew it. Brought to earth by a lowly 30.06 and a novice hunter.

My first elk was killed with a 7mag at 80 yds. Lung shot, sucking chest wound, put a second shot in 2 inches from the first. The bull trotted up and passed me at about 10 yards, went another 20 yards into a copse of trees, where I heard him walking in circles while his lungs filled, then he fell over. Took about 5 minutes. I got a 338mag to put some more "authority" on the subject. With 225 and 250 Noslers that gun has dropped 5 elk cleanly at between 40 and 400 yards, none went more than 10 yards from impact. One, at 325 yards, I put a second shot into because his knee only twitched at first impact. Both shots went into the lung cavity and were killing shots. My last two elk have been with a 300 Win mag shooting Nosler 200's in the Federal High Energy load (no longer manufactured). Just as much "authority" as the 338.
My conclusions after 20 years: 1. Use as much gun as you can comfortably handle. 2. Use a gun and load you have confidence in, even if the confidence is subjective rather than objective, 3. Shoot target pistol to learn trigger control and avoid flinching, 4. Use a PAST recoil reducer for sighting in at the range. You can shoot 5 or 10 shots or more without getting a sore shoulder and starting to flinch. 5. For any shot over 300 yards estimated, use a laser rangefinder and memorize your load's trajectory out to 500 yards. If you don't have time to use it, don't take the shot. 6. If you want to drop an animal in its tracks every time, you have to break the spine or shoulder. A heart/lung shot, with any caliber, usually, but not always, takes a little time. Good hunting to you.

If you can shoot, a .30-06 it will do the job at 450. If you can't then it won't.

If you can shoot a .300 (or .338) then it might kill a little quicker. And it might not.

Just an observation but if one is getting a sore shoulder from only 5-10 shots then he's not shooting enough to be taking shots past 300...

That's the way I see it, what do you all think?

Dober

...If you have a 30/06 and think you need a 300 Winchester, why not just buy some Hornady light magnum loads for the 06? That bumps you so close to 300 power I doubt a game animal would ever know the difference.

i've never shot at anything out to 450 yards, but i have killed elk with both the 06', 300 win mag, and 300 wsm. out to around 300-350 i couldn't tell the difference, so i sold the mags and went back to the 06'. 300-350 is my max range, but i like 150 a lot better.

I remember Jeff Cooper once wrote: "When was your last (hunting) shot over 200 yards? Why?".

I believe my favorite writer, Finn Aagard, said the same or maybe even said it first. I tend to agree. While I admire great shooters who can go the long shots, I try to remember we are hunters, not wannabe snipers. Not trying to stir the pot too much, its just my .02 worth, but its how I roll. All that said, my last elk was right at 265 so I am willing to stretch a little. Les

My thoughts exactly, Knight! I (and most people) shoot mild-recoiling calibers best. I have killed 15 elk (I think) in Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado and Mongolia and most of them were less than 100 yards away. The only bull farther than 300 yards was in Mongolia, and I didn't try to get closer because I was in a hurry to end the hunt.

Bill Quimby

Now just in case we have a few inexperienced people out there reading this forum information etc., I just want to say that in hunting elk is one thing but shooting them far away is a totally other subject, especially when your speaking of magnum caliber ok.

Like I stated before, I grew up reading the likes of Bill Jordan, Jack O'Conner etc. and while it might be the "macho" thing for a man to want to shoot a big magnum caliber, it takes a lot more time and practice to be as efficient with it as it does a 30-06 or even a caliber that is lesser in energy production and recoil.

The 300 Winchester magnum is a wonderful hunting tool for hunters who can tolerate it's recoil and master the skills to hit things with it down range. To be more exact, a 30-06 when shooting a 180 grain bullet will have the recoil of around 24 pounds of energy in recoil to your shoulder and the .300 Win mag will shoot that same weight bullet at around 30 to 32 pounds of energy. Now a jump up in just 5lbs of recoil energy, is very noticeable to most shooters. Another level or step up the ladder you might say and that could be the straw that broke the camels back in terms of down range accuracy.

This is something many hunters don't think about when purchasing a hunting rifle in a particular caliber, not until they have a certain level of experience with guns behind them. More recoil usually generates less accuracy the further down range one shoots.

One of the reasons that the Army phased out the 30-06, in favor of the 7.62 (.308) back in the 1950's, was "lesser recoil" in the form of 5lbs, which let green troops be more accurate down range when shooting. I can still remember those purple colored shoulders of many in my barracks during boot camp who met up with the steel buttplate of the 30-06 M1-Garand combat rifle.

The 300 Win mag shoots a 180 grain bullet faster by some 300 plus feet a second but there is also a price to pay in the form of recoil and one must learn to master that recoil to be able to master the extra range a magnum this magnum caliber can give you.

Oh, bye the way, I once saw a hunter kill an elk at over 440 yards with a 30-06, using a Nosler partition 180 grain bullet, so don't think you need magnum power only to take down large game at 400 yards. A hunter needs "marksmanship skills" first! Not everybody is meant to shoot a big magnum and lesser calibers like the 30-06 are capable of killing most big game down range.

I used to shoot elk at long range in my mispent cowboy youth, but over the years, I have seen so many wounded at long range and I have also shot low and broke legs at long range, fortunatly I recovered all but one but that one combined with what I had seen in the past changed my long range shooting practices. I quit doing it...

What I have seen is a good shot at the long ranges (450 and over) will seldom miss an elk or deer, but he will miss the kill zone and more often than most will admit, they always seem to have selective memory on that count...Mostly they will shoot low and break one or both legs or the wind will stick one in the guts...

Today I never shoot past 300 yards, I like to do my hunting before I do my shooting, and I can usually get a 100 or so yards closer to an elk at that range with a little planning..and I get a clean kill.

I also mostly hunt the black timber as in Idaho the good bulls hole up in the nasty thick places after day one, and don't come out until dark thrity. Here is where the .338 and 300 gr. Woodleighs shine.

Mostly today I use my 300 H&H, or .338 as it kills them better than my 30-06, but I am not condeming the 06, it is still my all time favorite caliber and I would not have any problem hunting elk with it..I have just used it so much its boring I suppose, but it always worked well enough.

The 300WM has a slight ballistic advantage over the 06 no doubt, but I dont kow too many guys whop have any business shooting 450 yards at anything. Now dont get me wrong, I know there are lots of guys that shoot 1k and 450 is a chip shot, but the vast majority of hunters are not able to make that shot.

If you are able and thnk you might be in a situation where a 450 yard shot the 300WM would get my nod, and Im a HUGE 30-06 fan, but at that range I want all the help I can get. This is assuming that the 300 wont kick me silly.

But I would take that shot with a 06 if that is what was in my hands at the time too.

My .30-06's get shot at 500 yards all the time but at that range I prefer my .300 WM when the target is big game.

Or my 7mm RM , which has about the same recoil as the .30-06.

Nothing I've ever used has come close to the noticeable hammer affect of
my 300 win mag shooting 200 NPs at 3,000 mv.

With dead on shoulder shots and varying distance 6 elk dropped in their tracks with that beast of a rifle. Most times I seen the life leave their eyes before they hit the ground.

300's are nast suckers, allright!

The magnums have an advantage with regards to velocity helping expansion and flatter trajectory. The problem is that this advantage is small in the real world and massive in one's head. I have gone back to the '06 myself to help control my "mental magnum".

I have killed my share of elk at 450++ with magnums so I wont tell others how far to shoot but sooner or later Murphy will school you. I decided to be more conservative with my elk shooting before this happens, now antelope is another story.

Everyone here is saying the same thing more or less and so will I. My first bull was a lasered 435 yards taken off a good field expediant rest with an '06 and a 165 partition. He took 3 steps and rolled down the hill from a boiler room shot. The reason I took the shot was because I had been working up the load and shooting that rifle 2-3 times a month for the previous 4-5 months at a range that had targets out to 400 yds. Would I take that shot today? Probably not since I haven't been shooting as much as I was then. As long as you're shooting a rifle that you can handle without bad habits, and you are shooting it regularly so you know how it performs, most rifles will do their job as long as the shooter does theirs. Just don't think that the super-duper whiz-bang mag will make up for the shooter not doing their job. The nut behind the trigger is more important than the hole above it.

The difference between the muzzle velocities of the "standard" 180-grain factory loads in the .300 Winchester Magnum and the .30-06 is 260 fps, which is about as much velocity as the .300 Winchester 180-grain load loses in the first 100 yards, given the BC of the average 180-grain bullet.

This is also about the difference when enthustiastic handloaders load each cartridge up pretty warmly.

In other words, the difference between the .30-06 and .300 Winchester Magnum is about 100 yards. Yet somehow many .300 WM fans are willing to shoot at elk 600+ yards away, but don't think the .30-06 is "adequate" (that wimpy word) past 250 or 300 whatever number they come up with.

This anomaly always puzzles me whenever this subject comes up, especially since I have shot some elk with both cartridges.

One guy who got into this discussion previous threads even went so far as to state that he had taken "almost 10 elk" with the .300 Winchester, and that it killed a LOT better than the .30-06. (What is "almost 10?" Nine? Eight? Even six would be closer to 10 than zero.) He said the elk he'd shot with the .30-06 traveled an average of 100 yards farther than those he shot with the .300 before keeling over.

This was very different than my own experience, since none of the elk I've shot with the .30-06 have even anything close to 100 yards. So I pressed him for details. It turned out that by the time he started using a .300 he'd also started going for spine/shoulder shots. Well, yeah, elk shot through the lungs will go farther than elk shot through the spine, no matter what the cartridge.

To some guys the difference between a .300 Winchester and a .30-06 will always be like the difference between a Volkswagen bug and a Ferrari, despite what Bob Hagel called "cold, hard ballistics."

I've had at least four experiences that come to mind that would answer that question satisfactorily, at least for me. The inference seems to be that to take a shot over 200 yds. is indicative of irresponsibility, poor hunting skills or both.

Exactly. Once I was standing next to a fella who emptied a magazine into a group of elk with his 300 win at about 50 yards. I looked at him in horror as these elk were so pressured they didn't know where to run so took off in a circle. Trigger Happy had reloaded and was banging away at some more elk that popped into the scrub opening when 2 elk in the first group went down. Lucky for him he had two cow tags for his hunt. The next year he showed up to camp with a 30-378 weatherby and repeated the same crap but worse. The next year he was booted by the land owners. I have seen men buy a magnum rifle because they missed last years elk with a 308 win???. It's the same jacked-up logic year after year and I don't see it getting any better loosing good hunters/writers and replacing them with magdumm pushers.

What would be a fun study would be to see what body types and what personality types bought and use which rounds...grin

I'm 4 thinking we could make some pretty good guesses.

Dober

I could help the "study" by asking customers if I could take a picture of them with their rifles. Might not be good for business though... smirk

Maybe offer a free sample of viagra with certain caliber/cartridge rifle builds.

IMO/E, the condition of one's lungs and legs will have much more to do with the success of an elk hunt.

Maybe that's why I've only killed one elk...

Dober,

I freely admit to owning 5 .30-06's--but I also own 4 .300 magnums of various sorts, and have hunted quite a but with all four of the .300's they're chambered for: WSM, H&H, Wby. and Win.

Sort out my personality by that, psychologist of the rifled tube! (grins)

And while you are at it Mato,I sold my last .300 when I quit hunting elk, and gave my only '06 to my bride. My "big gun" is now the 7x57, and mostly I use .22 centerfires now. Freudian? Help me out here...
Ingwe

Dober,

I am 5' 10.5" tall and 25lbs overweight at 190--I have a light frame.

The leadership grid always puts me as a 9/9 and according to Myers Briggs I am an INTJ:

INTJs apply (often ruthlessly) the criterion "Does it work?" to everything from their own research efforts to the prevailing social norms. This in turn produces an unusual independence of mind, freeing the INTJ from the constraints of authority, convention, or sentiment for its own sake... INTJs are known as the "Systems Builders" of the types, perhaps in part because they possess the unusual trait combination of imagination and reliability. Whatever system an INTJ happens to be working on is for them the equivalent of a moral cause to an INFJ; both perfectionism and disregard for authority may come into play... Personal relationships, particularly romantic ones, can be the INTJ's Achilles heel... This happens in part because many INTJs do not readily grasp the social rituals... Perhaps the most fundamental problem, however, is that INTJs really want people to make sense.

My primary hunting rifles are all in the process of being sorted out since I was recently delivered from M-700ism. I am now afflicted with CRF M-70ism with an ocassional outbreak of pre '64ism. Here thay are:

1. 1957 Vintage M-70 FWT in 30-06. It will be my "fair weather" rifle for deer hunting. Desired load: 150 grain TTSX at 3000 fps.

2. M-70 SS Classic with Edge stock in 30-06. Primary deer/ black bear/hog; back-up for elk. This is my "lightweight" at 7 3/4 lbs scoped. Desired load: 168 TTSX at 2900 fps.

3. M-70 SS Classic in 300 Win, Bansner stock. Not sure where this rifle fits, maybe as a "long range" deer/elk rig? May not keep it if rifle #4 works out. Desired load: 200 grain NAB at 2950 fps.

4. M-70 Classic in 338 Win, Pacific Research stock. Elk rifle. If this rifle works out it will probably get a Bansner stock. Desired load: 210 TTSX at 3000 fps.

5. M-70 Classic, Cerakoted, McMillan stock in 416 Rem. This rifle will get used anytime I want to kill any big. Desired load: 350 TSX at 2600 fps.

I don't know if any correltations can be made between my body type/personality and my chambering choices, but have at it..............

Juuuuust outta some idle curiousity here.... If there is anyone here who has ever guided hunters professionally, which problem occurred the most frequently-Clients unable to kill game because they had a 30/06 that they would have been able to kill with a 300 Magnum, or clients unable to kill game because they couldn't shoot their magnums well?
Just askin', ya unnerstan...

Fred

That is not even in dispute, nor is the answer of a guide required. People who can't shoot are a much bigger problem that people who are undergunned.

However, if you can shoot, the "bigger" gun has the potential to perform better. Though you really have to go beyond 270 to 338 Mag on elk debates before the bigger gun's potential really starts to make a difference......like say a 270's ability to stop a cape buffalo or a 30-06's ability to stop an elephant vs that of a 416 or 458.

I have only been able to hunt Africa once a number of years ago and today my PH would be 76 years old. He grew up in Southern Rhodesia, worked for National Parks in his younger years before becoming a PH and in his life time had killed over 1500 elephants. He told me that one day he shot 23 elephants in 5 minutes half with a .458 and half with a 30-06 using a 220 grain solid. He said that if hit properly that there was no difference in killing power between the calibers.

If he felt that a would be elephant hunter was not able to shot his/her elephant gun to his satisfaction then he would replace it with his 30-06. His rational was that if the hunter using the 30-06 and was able to place the shot exactly where he had instructed then the hunter would have a kill. Verus, the hunter using a gun that they were afraid of and wounding the animal where as then he would have to kill it. This is what I was told. I love my 06.

That is why I said "stop" a cape buffalo or elephant. You can kill one with a sharp stick..............

The real problem is that some think it's a problem.

It's not problem at all, it's an advantage, it's a hedge.

IMO poor marksmanship is pervasive today and it doesnt have anything to do with the caliber one shoots. I have seen plenty of guys that couldnt hit the broad side of a barn with a 30-06 or a 30-30.
Why does viagra even enter this discussion?
One other thing. It seem popular for guys that shoot non magnums to bag on guys that shoot magnums, yet you dont typicaly see the opposite?
I could care less what another guy shoots. I use both magnums and standards, but I also am not under any illusion that my .270 puts em down like my 300 ultra does.

I don't think any reasonable person is putting down people that shoot magnums. What I DO see reasonable people railing against are the guys that think that a magnum is going to take the place of hunting ability, practice and good marksmanship.
Something I have seen a lot of, is the guy that buys a magnum, shoots a half box of shells at 100 yards a year, then thinks he is going to kill deer and elk and 600 yards. To shoot a magnum well requires a fair amount of practice. The higher cost and greater recoil of the magnums often cause people to shoot less, not more.

Royce

I dunno know about any of this

The first elk I saw shot was hit with a 30/06 and factory 150 Power Points at about 350 yards;first shot too far back,and the elk trotted off a bit,clearly ill.Second shot was through the ribs behind the foreleg and his knees buckled.Game over.

Elk looked big to me.So when I started elk hunting I built a 300 Win Mag,a 300 Weatherby and 300 H&H;also a pacel of 338's;shot them all a lot and settled on 180 gr bullets at 3100-3200.This killed elk and a bunch of other stuff.At the range(and out to 600 yards), I noticed all the 300's shot flatter than everything else except the 7 Rem Mag.

So I used them all!

They all worked;sometimes they killed faster than the 30/06's I saw used and sometimes they did not if the shots were poorly placed. But properly placed hits from the 300's at distances out to 450 yards or so brought elk down like dynamited smokestacks;but elk hit with 7mags and good bullets behaved the same way.Ditto some I saw killed with 270's.

I never saw enough difference between 338's 340's and 300's to make me a "Keithian",and the 338's went south.

Here's what I have noticed and it's worth what you paid for it:

1)Bullet construction and placement get equal footing with me,and trump caliber,because a great bullet from a 30/06 will do what a lousy bullet from a 300 Win Mag will not.

2)Within reason,you should shoot what you shoot well,and have confidence in.

3)Some practiced shooters do better with less recoil,and recoil tolerance varies a great deal between individuals(see #2 above).But I have noticed that many people who are bums with 300's tend to be bums with everything,and they rarely get better with lighter recoiling rifles because they are undisciplined,un-practiced,and cannot hit a bull in the ass with a bag of rice,regardless of caliber.

4)A GOOD rifleman does not need to worry much about what he is shooting,within reason.He will do well with about anything.We all have our cartridge preferences,but the guy behind the rifle is the most important ingredient in the mix.His skill sets will frequently trump rifle and cartridge,scope,etc. He will do good with about anything.

I'm going elk/moose/mule deer hunting this fall in BC.Have not yet decided but the choice is down to a 270 Winchester,a 7mmDakota,or a 30/06.All will be loaded with Swift Aframes or Bitterroots. I am not the least bit concerned about which one I take.


Blaine: I think you'll find the 338 is excess baggage.JMHO

Bob; Your short list just about covers it all, any time, any game, anywhere. It makes so much sense I doubt that anyone will pay heed!
It reminds me of an
"Appendix on Rifles and Shooting" in the back of one of W.D.M. Bell's books...insert modern boolits and in three pages it is literally all you ever need to know about shooting....
Your list is kinda the same...odd how we get pragmatic with age and experience...
Ingwe

Out of the 6 people that I hunt with, only 2 of us use magnums of 30 cal and over for Elk. That would be my brother shooting my old .338, and me shooting my old 300 saum, both of us shoot often, I reload. I have seen the other four kill elk with .270 win, 270 wsm, and 30-06. What I haven't seen is a major difference between all of these different cartridges in quickness of kill, some animals go down as if hit by lightning, some keep going for a bit. In my own head I can't shake the belief that a heavier bullet going faster isn't going to cause more damage and kill quicker. So I continue to use the magnums even if they are just the short mags, and continue to recommend the standard cartridges to my friends that aren't into putting the same energy into shooting as I.

My guns, and I shooting well are mostly a hobby of mine, beats the hell out of golf.

Ingwe: I dunno about the experience side of things,cause many here have more of that...but I definately have age going for me

I promise I will try to be less pragmatic in the future,in order to provide better Home Entertainment Value

Give me a 300 mag of some variety(I like the RUM) with a 200gr partition, please...

Bob, don't sell yourself short, youv'e got oodles of experience. As for the pragmatism, both you and I know how we got that way...we experimented with all these cartridge/ bullet/ velocity combos just like all these young guys are doing...
And ya gotta admit, we ( at least I...) was alot like them...I know what the books and the writers say about this or that cartridge, but maybe if I try it....
Ingwe

Bob has good stuff to contribute for sure.

As an aside, I think ol Hagel would have liked the 300 RUM and I think he really would have liked the spitzer 200gr partition(instead of that semi-spitzer they had back in his day.)

I think Hagel liked anything you could stuff a LOT of powder in...
I tried some of his loads and literally found it a physical impossibility to get that much powder in some of those cases!
Really enjoyed his book and his writing though, too bad hes gone from the party..
Ingwe

Now it's time to compare the 30-06 to the 270, another arguement of little substance but like the 30-06 vs. 300Win. if creates a lot of clammer....

Blaine
According to this, you are only 14 lbs overweight! Barely worth mentioning.

http://www.nhlbisupport.com/bmi/

BMI calculator.

Except my bones are small in diameter, so I need to weigh 10-15 lbs less that what a typical male does at my height and chest size.............

Blaine:I know you have one or two 30/06 projects going on. FYI I did some chronograph stuff yesterday with the 30/06,a pre 64 M70 FW in Bansner stock.Load was 59 gr H4350-165 Nosler Partition and Sierra;both averaged about 2890+- over 8-10 shots.

This rifle shoots that load well.

You are correct for the small percentage of people that can apply the virtues of the magnums.

The problem is that most people don't shoot enough to get competent with one and a large number of people will never be able to no matter how much they shoot. A lot of hunters truly believe their mags are exponentially better killers than a standard cartridge. It's no "hedge" having someone hunt with a magnum that scares them when it's much better to have a gun they can shoot well.

I just sorted 50 cases of Lapua brass from my SS Classic Edge '06. I hope to make it to the range this weekend. Thinking of starting with H4350 with 168 TTSXs.

Good combo and you may have to look no further!

I love Lapua brass!

Tim,you are the "perfect" gun stuff consumer!

A friend of mine was party to the taking of a 10ft brown bear as a back up gunner. This took place about 4 years ago on kodiak Island during a road system hunt. The shooter was shooting a 338 , my buddy was shooting an 06. Bear was taken at about 30 yards, and as he described to me the showdown, the bear did not react any differently from the hits it recieved from the 338 WM or the 30-06 all of em were killing him. Bear had lots of holes in and out of him. I said to him ....did you wish you had a bigger gun, he said ....nah, just wish I could reload faster! Bear absorbed 8 shots between both guns at 30 yards and less as they moved in on it. To say that the 300 WM kills better than an 06 is just plain horse chit, having killed moose with both, the only thing a 300 does is give you a wee bit less distance estimating, but with todays bullets.....thats it.

Ya know, I think this post is true. It's almost painful in that I have absolutely no justification for having anything more than a BB gun at this time. But I still keep looking at the classifieds.
Have to rethink all of this. Do I really want that Whitworth 375?

gm:375's are different from anything smaller IMHO.At some point in the equation,frontal area and bullet weight matter.Where that point is, I don't know,but 375's smack stuff hard,and make big holes ....get the Whitworth!

Bob,
I resemble that remark!

Uhh...Thanks, .. I think.