What is your opinion on this cartridge? With a 220 gr Speer at 2350 fps how do you predict it would do on elk? What would you consider max range?

Thank you for any input.

I've seen elk killed with much less, that lever gun should make a good woods cartridge.

anyone else?

I would not hesitate to use it at all.Probably by 200 yds, it has lost a lot of steam though.I shoot a 220 gr out of my .06 and it isn't going more than 2400fps I bet.I have killed elk with it out past 300 yds.I would not do it every day,but conditions were right.

I think it is a shame it didn't get accepted well. It is an excellent design.

With a a 220 grain Speer at 2350 it is foing about what my Whelen is doing with a 225 at 100yards. Plenty for elk.

With a a 3.5 in high zero at 100 yards it should be good to 225 yards without any hold over.

An exciting possibility for this round is the Hornady Flex Tip bullets that have better BC's resulting in less drop at longer ranges. I do not know if Hornady made them tough enough for elk. You could e-mail them. They are pretty honest.

Plenty for elk but a relatively short-range cartridge. It will drop below 2000fps at about 130 yards. 1500fpe and 1752fps at 230 yards.

Not sure what velocity is needed to ensure expansion with that bullet but I wouldn't want to go any lower than that and would prefer faster.

If it can do it at 150-175 yards I would be happy.

It should work well out to 200 yds and i would use the 220gr Speer, put the bullet in the right spot and you'll have a dead elk.

I think I might be having seller's remorse with the 356 in the classified.

Think of all the elk killed with 30-30's, .32 Win Spcl and other mundane cartridges. The .356 would have been big medicine for elk a hundred years ago.

Keep the distance reasonable and put the bullet where it belongs - you won't have any problems.

Pull the ad and keep it. I wouldn't consider selling mine, my kids can deal with it after I'm gone. I don't think any more of these will ever roll off the line again.

I have hunted elk with mine but never harvested an elk with it. I have shot several MN large bodied whitetails with the 220 gr Speer and it is almost too much bullet for them. I expect they would work great on elk out to about 200 yards. A couple years ago I dropped a 225 pound pig with that bullet at over 200 yards using a peep sight. Broke it's back and DRT. Drop was less than expected. Mine would be one of the last rifles I would ever sell.

I used my win 94 .356 with your load for one calf moose. Range was exactly 250 long steps. One shot went through the diaphragm, cut one lung and hit the liver. Next shot went through the hump and spine, and dropped him. Both bullets exited. Expansion seemed reasonable, but wound channels were not large. The two elk shot with that rifle were with the 250 gr. factory loads, both were close shots and both dropped to spine shots.
I liked the cartridge, but did not care so much for the rifle, so I sold mine.

I stopped using the 358 Win on caribou as the bullet expansion at 200 yards+ was poor. Penetration was always great but in truth the 308 Win killed faster, especially past 150 yards. Very disappointed in it and I used it a lot. The 356 would be similar. A Savage 99 in 308 with Spitzers would be a much better all rounder.

To me 35 starts at Whelan or Rem Magnum country. I sold my 358 and haven't missed it at all.

+1 on that.

Especially with factory loads the 308 shooting 180's will out perform the 358 shooting 200's. I'd take a 308 shooting nosler partitions at 2700-2800fps over anything the 358 can spit out especially on any shot over 100 yards.

But having said all of that if you have a 356, it should do a fine job on elk for you out to 200 yards. Inside of 100...it will knock em as dead as anything.

It certainly isn't a long range caribou gun...if you want to shoot caribou up on the tundra...get you some kind of 7mm mag.

There is a guy on Marlin Owner gunboards that did a huge test of bullets loaded hot in the 35 REM, which is fairly close to the 356 when loaded to equal pressure. In Part 1 he concluded that the 200 REM CL was the bullet of choice. In Part 2 he tested the 220 Speer. It expanded some at 200 yards when started at 2200 ft/sec and ought to be a good choice for the caliber. I'd still like more positive expansion but it ought to work. Based on his study I might stick with the 200 CL's. They seem to work rather well.

Here's the link to Part 2

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,43257.0.html

Here is my own smaller study on 35's spanning from 1992-2007.

http://www.35cal.com/35bullet_study/35bullet_study1.html

John Barsness, aka mule deer wrote an article on the .358win and handloads he was getting 2,750fps out of a Ruger hawkeye, with 22" barrel and he feels he could have gotten 2,800fps with 200gr bullets and not excessive pressure. He was using Ramshot TAC and magnum primers. The 358win is notoriously downloaded, just compare it to the 338 federal, or 308 win, both the same case but much higher pressures and velocities for the same given bullet weights. At those velocities the 358win would have worked much better, its a shame that you have never truly experienced the great little 358.

What bullets were you using and at what MV?

In the anemic factory load it probably will. Not when it's loaded to what it should be. A 200 grn TSX at 2750 fps, 225 at 2550 or a 250 at 2400 isn't anything to sneeze at

Well even at 350 Rem Mag velocities I found the .308 a better killer on caribou sized game. Expansion of 308 bullets is more positive. That's why I did the testing. I used the 358 for two years and harvested 10 caribou and many many seals. The factory loaded silvertips were pretty good. 200 Hornady and Rem spitzers were slow expanders. My speeds were in the 2550ft/sec range, just like factory ammo. I also experimented with 220 Speers, (small wound channels) and 250 Speers (pretty good to 150-200 yards or so).

Bigger game changes things up a bit. I would say that I agree on the publics yawn when it comes to the .358 Win but I was very exited when I first got it. The poor expansion of bullets did make it my favourite Arctic Hare gun and I have a picture here somewhere of me with several dozen head shot Hares and my 358. The fellow I bought it from reported cases only lasting 2-3 shots as he was using Speer Data from the old Manual #3 days. I took a more sedate approach.

As for getting 2800ft/sec with 200 grain bullets from a 358 I'd want to see those loads pressure tested. I'll admit that I never chase the pressure curve and up my powder capacity before chasing the last 100ft/sec. I am happy when I get 2800 out of my 358 Rem Mag with a fair bit more usable case capacity. It's important to note that I also used moderate loads in the .308 and 150 Hornady's at 2600 from a .308 expand a lot better than 200 grain .358's at the same speed.

In any event you aren't going to get these sorts of speeds in a properly loaded ,356 and the slow expansion of most 35 bullets at moderate speeds still limit the long range killing power of the round. Spitzer bullets are mostly built for more speed, roundnoses that expand don't hold on to velocity. I wasn't completely happy with the 35 until I moved up to the Norma Magnum. Now I have two and wouldn't trade them for anything.

Sounds like your speeds were decent. I can see the Hornady being a little tougher, but I figured the Remington would do well. I loaded up some 180 Speers at around 2600 fps for deer to see how they'd do last year but couldn't get a shot. JB had a great article in Handloader a while back on the 358 (and 338 Fed). With a Hawkeye he got 2753 with the 200 Hornady and Norma 201 and 2749 with the 200 TSX with TAC.

Well If I could have reached those speeds or near them in my 20" .358 I'd likely still have it. I used the load data of the time. Seems like a useful increase. People say 150ft/sec doesn't mean much but in a situation of marginal expansion I think it does.

In any case if I had a .356 I'd certainly use it for Elk but I'd do some expansion testing and pick the best bullet, and figure out my range limitation. The 220 Speer might be it. According to the tests at Marlin site the 220 Speer when started at 2200 does expand at 200 yards and does hold together at zero yards. Another way of looking at this is that you don't need a bunch of bullets that work you only need one. Another candidate might be the 200 Rem CL in roundpoint form.

I used 225 gr partitions at over 2500 fps from my 21-inch .358, and they worked well in Africa on kudu, etc. I agree that 250 gr bullets from a .358 are a short range proposition, as velocity will drop below that required for dependable expansion quickly. I have some TAC on order from POwder Valley to try to come close to the loads JB used in his article.

I agree with you there. I'd imagine bullet expansion at 2150 fps vs 2000 there is a noticable differenc. I thought the same thing about the 200 grn Rem CL RN. Esp after the test on the marlin forum with different bullets in the 35 Rem. I'd think that would do well and may just be a pretty good bullet in the 358 or 356 and expand reliabley at a wide velocity range. I did some shooting with the 220 Speer also and was getting around 2450-2500 fps IIRC. Once of these days I'll have to shoot them into something and see how they turn out. Using hardcast in the 356 (or 358) could be fun too.

The .308win is indeed a great cartridge, and one must use a cartridge that is best suited for the animal and terrain. On open tundra, or out west, where distances are stretched, i would use a 358win. If you are hunting in thick mountain laurel or brush then i want a bullet to fully penetrate and leave a good blood trail. Of the several head of game i have killed with the 358win and 200gr core-lokt's i couldnt have asked for better performance. Keep in mind i used to shoot a 30-06 which is similar to the 308 to each their own.

From your post about the 358, an inexperienced hunter would think it was ineffective, and as far as what the public perceives who really cares? Many great cartridges fall by the way side because of cartridge over-lap but that doesnt detract from their usefulness.

Take a rifle like the Ruger hawkeye with a 22" tube load up a 225gr Nosler accu-bond to max and you will have a very useable 300 yd big game rifle. I also have a 35 whelen so im not comparing apples to oranges.

Sorry to hi-jack this thread, but if i see something said about a cartridge i dont agree with i have to say something. As far as pressure testing those "real" loads just remember that the 308win and 338 federal are loaded to much higher saami pressure limits than the 358. A factory 358win silver tip is getting 2,430fps NOT 2,550fps this has all been proven. Now compare the velocities of the 338 fed with the velocities i listed and you will see the potential of the great 358 win,getting 2,750fps or so out of a 22" tube is not chasing the last couple of fps it getting the usable power out of a cartridge and not compromising anything, if you had done this you most likely wouldnt be disatisfied with the 358 win.....

I meant to say where distances are very long i wouldnt use the 358win

For shots under 200 yards (as in heavy cover), the 356 Win is a dandy cartridge.

Yep, and a 250 grain Partition will break bones and keep right on truckin.

I had a 99 Savage in 358 and inside 200 yards I never could tell the difference between it an my Whelen with 250 Partitions. Both are excellent close range elk cartridges and the 356 is right in there too.

Wayne

With a 225-gn Nosler Partition in my .358, launched at 2550 fps or so (using TAC, which is excellent stuff for .358!), I'm still holding above Nosler's stated minimum of 1800 fps out to 400 yards.

I use a turret and routinely shoot my .358 out that far. Can't say how it works on game at those ranges, however.

While the flat trajectory of (say) a 200-gn Hornady SP at 2700+ fps is attractive, look at the dismal BC of that bullet. In my shooting tests it REALLY blows around in the wind, and sheds velocity FAST, which negates any advantage it might have had over the heavier bullet.

Mine is gone, replaced with a 358. I trusted the 215 gr Lyman out to 225 yards to do it's job. With deer I never recovered part of a bullet. I would shorten the yardage to 190-200 yards with a bull if I could get closer. I never had it and a legal elk together.

Like some others I have killed elk with the 30-30, 250 Savage and more than a few with the lowly 25-35, but that was back when. Today, IMO, elk calibers begin with the .308 and go up from there. To each his own, but I have seen a lot of elk wounded and have had to get involved in some pretty nasty tracking jobs down to the bottom or some divide and back up to another, then packing that out...Today I like the .338 Win with 300 gr. Woodleighs at 2500 FPS, saves me a lot of grief..

I just picked up a nice M94 in 356 and been following this thread with great interest. Based on what I have read here, I am going to try the Speer 220s. Also, has anyone tried the Hornady 200 gr LeveRevolution in the 356 or 358?

I have been using the 358 Win for years and find it truly magical, but I have never had to use it on anything past 150 yards; however, I wouldn't be afraid to take game out to 300 yards using Sierra 225s.

Forgot to mention that I just picked up a "brand new," still in the factory package, 356 Win barrel for the M94. I am thinking about selling it. Anyone interested in owning it? Lou

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Looks like the speer is a tougher bullet than the one they make for the 9.3's.

You might be able to use the 358 to 300 yards but don't rely on the Sierra. It can shed it's jackets at any speed and is one of the worst long range expanders I have ever used. One of the worst bullets I have tested in any caliber. At times they work great but very inconsistent.