For those of you with experience with converting an enclosed trailer for use while hunting, I'd like to hear your recommendations as far as a heating source. I've been looking at the blue flame type wall mounted heaters, but a friend who works in the propane industry cautions me against them as he's afraid of oxygen depletion. Looks like they'd be convenient and efficient, would a roof vent or cracking a window be sufficient? A carbon monoxide detector would be a no-brainer, but any other thoughts?

Also thought about putting a small wood stove in one corner and piping it out through the wall. Cheap enough but the heat would take slightly longer than with a propane type heater.

I've been looking at some used 6x12 models on craigslist, there was a 7x14 at a farm sale I went to last weekend and I don't really want one that big. Figure the 6x12 with a single axle would be the best compromise in terms of room and ground clearance/mobility.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

You don't want anything with an open flame in there with you ...... if you wish to wake up.

The old trailer/camper heaters that had a convection sytem (no fans) and a heat exchanger (just like home hot ait furnaces) were great, safe and, needing no electric, didn't need batteries.

They also last forever. I'd be prowling around trailer/camper junkyards looking for one of them.

I had a 10.5' truck camper and an 18' travel trailer that both had them (back when).
Kept us warm and comfy through many an upstate NY hunting and icefishing seasons.

http://www.small-cabin.com/forum/3_658_0.html

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200362081_200362081

http://www.houseneeds.com/shop/eskabe/eskabe_space_heater_main.asp

Stay warm !

Catalytic heaters are what 10 zillion RV owners use...There safe and do not have to be plumbed.

I have been using these in my RV's for years,even my pickup camper.



Jayco

I never seen a factory installed Catalytic heater in any RV or enclosed truck camper.
(pop ups leak so much you're probably safe).

Contemporary ones all use heat exchanger, fan driven furnaces that need electricity to work.

Catalytic heaters use O2 to function. Would you turn on a propane stove when you went to bed ? Same thing.

"If used in an unventilated space, any propane heater will consume oxygen until there is inadequate oxygen for human breathing. The oxygen sensor in the ET or ODS models senses a low oxygen level and turns off the heater if the level gets too low for safety.

Although an oxygen sensor makes the heater safer, it restricts the heater to use at altitudes below about 5000 to 7000 feet, depending on brand. For many RVers, this is a really major disadvantage, since some of the nicest camping locations are at higher altitudes, and the heater's primary use may be for the cool nights found year-round at high elevation.

Because these heaters use oxygen and emit water vapor and carbon dioxide (not carbon monoxide!), any space in which the heater is used must be ventilated (a window opened slightly), both to add new oxygen and to get rid of the excess moisture. Olympian recommends one square inch of free air opening per 1000 BTU/hr of heat output for "rooms of average airtightness". (This means that for the Wave 6 heater, an RV window 2 feet wide would would be cracked open 1/4 inch.) I have found that our travel trailer is leaky enough to provide sufficient oxygen for two people to breathe while the heater is in use without opening windows. A friend with a large high-end fifth wheel trailer has also found this to be true. We ventilate anyway, largely to keep the moisture level reasonable. But it's comforting to know that if we forgot to open a window before going to bed, it wouldn't kill us.

This comment should be understood in the context of our own tolerance for reduced oxygen levels. We have camped at altitudes of 10,000 feet and hiked as high as 14,000 feet without problem. Individuals with impaired heart/lung function, or those who suffer from altitude sickness at much lower elevations, will want to be much more careful about ventilation."


Carbon dioxide will also kill you just as dead.

Your money, your life.

I have never seen an RV dealer that would not install or plumb a Catalytic heater.There are more Catalytic heaters in use by RV'ers than any other heater..The furnace burns the batteries dead in one night.This gives radiant heat off the catalytic pad.

Every boon docker either has to run his gen set all night or use a Catalytic type heater that does not require electricity.

Jayco

CFVA

I just ran out and took a picture of my Catalytic heater in my RV..Call any RV dealer and ask them about Catalytic heaters if you have any concerns..I know there used by thousands of RV'ers daily and I have personally used them for many/many years without a hitch and "With" carbon Monoxide and Dioxide detectors never setting either off..



Jayco

All of the factory installations I've seen were forced air type systems.
In really cold temperatures it is possible to run down the battery overnight. However, a large battery, kept charged by a generator run at least four hours a day, will rarely run down. BTDT.
My advice is to buy a well insulated RV with a proper heating system and proper alarm systems built in. If it doesn't come with a generator, then carry a separate one. E

Thanks to everyone for the information, and picture logcutter.

Eremicus - I have a 5th wheel parked in my yard as we speak, just have no desire to drag it across the country or thru a snowstorm/off road proposition. I like the idea of a little enclosed utility trailer, considering the mobility plus ability to throw an atv in there should I take the notion. I don't need a full camper when I'm hunting, just somewhere to sleep and get warm.

No takers on the small wood stove notion?

Definitely in what you described..I have friends who took out dinette seats in a camper and put in a small wood heater,one even had it installed by an RV guy but most did it themselves using a good barrier from the walls...

Pull the pipe and slap a plug in the top or side stove pipe outing(of trailer) and take off.

Jayco

Actually something that small you could heat with a Coleman lantern. Get it warmed up, turn it off, vent it out (Insulated walls, floor & ceiling retain heat), get in your bag and you'll be fine until morning.

I use one the one pictured above in a small Trailer for years with no problem. Currently use a "Mr. Buddy" with no problems. Screw in small green bottles they last about 6 hrs on low. DON"T try to use a hose with a larger bottle with the Mr. Buddy these can leak and cause a fire.

I have two Big Buddies and both set off my Carbon Monoxide alarm installed in the RV.So I went back to the Catalytic which is more expensive but uses less propane...

My son uses one of the Big Buddies when it is cold in his older RV but keeps the windows open around it...It does keep the chill off.

I spent so many years living in an RV in super cold weather to know when you can do it and when you can't.When it gets to 15 degree's,things start to freeze up,like the water lines..Not enough to break but they do freeze with heat on in the camper.

If it is going to be 15 degree's or lower,I winterize my RV and use a Porta Potti and water jugs never to worry about freezing and breaking stuff.Better than chasing water lines with a hair dryer...

I lived in a 35 ft Jayco for 5 years in North and Central Idaho..You learn alot about them in time.What works and what does not..

Jayco

Do you like the Mr. Buddy deal? I've been thinking of a little small wood stove for evening/sleeping heat with one of the Buddy heaters for knocking the chill off in the morning. Just reach out of the sleeping bag and hit the switch, then when you leave you don't have to worry about embers left in a stove.

Thanks.

That is a tough nut to safely crack with open flame heat sources. A ceiling vent sounds good, but some gases are heavier than air and settle rather than rise. The other issue is combustion typically generates water as well as carbon dioxide or monoxide. The monoxide form has a nine times greater affinity for hemoglobin than oxygen. That being, it's more rapidly absorbed and much harder to get rid of. Mean while it's taking up space normally reserved for oxygen in ones system. If one comes down with a headache, get the hell out of there now.

A buddy has done a similar conversion on the cheap with an enclosed cargo trailer, and does the heat just before bed and at rise and shine time. Still between the heater, and his breathing, the interior is a damp/humid place, and it's difficult to dry things out. A fan might help, but again he is going on the cheap.

In the two instances I've shared camp with this person, I sleep comfortably and safely in my two man tent and I have no plans to change.


To be able to sleep and function without worry, one should secure some sort of a vented system if combustion is involved. We are after all out there to have fun. Relaxing and simultaneously worrying about one's atmosphere, do not go hand in hand. There's also the issue of leaving someone in camp that's not schooled up on the intricacies of survival in a death trap. I for one do not want to count on detectors or batteries to keep me alive. Life is short enough, and I have a sh-tload of stuff left to do.

Try to be safe, not just get by. Those that have failed in this endeavor, do not often log in.

Catalytics are great but they do have a couple drawbacks. They do need air, just like any other heat source other than electric. Propane can't burn without it.
Also, they put a LOT of moisture in the air. I have one in my old 20' hunting trailer and after a few days of running steadily in real cold weather, we'll have water running down the walls. It does keep the trailer nice and warm, though.

I have a Buddy that I use in a tent occasionally. I use a bulk tank but you have to be sure the valve is good and tight. Mine is an older one where the hose fitting is up inside an enclosure and darn hard to get at. I cut off part of the enclosure so I can get at the valve with pliers.
It works very well in a tent.

PM Spotshooter on this forum. He bought a std camper heater, I believe for his converted trailer. A lot safer if you have an outside vent. You can hook up a thermostat and fan and have battery in a box. I think he bought the heater from a camper /trailer supply store.

I think a wood stove is going to be too hot for you.

I use a Blue Flame heater, but it is either in a tent or a 20 ft stock trailer with lotsa vent/fresh air.

+1 on a Mr Heater Buddy or Big Buddy. Yes they do produce a fair amount of moisture but they ARE rated for indoor use. The Big Buddy also has an onboard fan utilized with D batteries or a 6vdc adapter and both of these have "tip over" shut offs. I used a Buddy heater for several years in a 15' travel trailer and also in a pop up and the smaller one was more than adequate.

I agree with Saddlesore, a wood stove will be too much.

A 6X12 anything is going to throw in moisture/ventilation issues etc.That is a very small area....Although,some of the old sheepherders had no problems with a small wood heater/stove in there wagons.

I spent one winter in one just exactly like this one.Sure keep ya' toasty down towards zero.



Jayco

If it isn't getting below 15-20 degrees then I'd just use a 3 burner sunflower head on a 20lb propane tank for taking the chill off in the morning and evening. One tank will last a long time in this scenario and the 3 burner head will almost instantly heat up a trailer that size.

I once saw a homemade wood stove in a motor home. He'd welded 1/4" plate on both ends of a 12" piece of old well casing that he'd squished to an oval shape and made a door for it. He had it mounted on some bricks on the counter top. He could use it for making coffee or whatever, too. It put out way too much heat even for a big RV. It must have been 90 in there while it was way below freezing outside.

I use a Buddy heater in my 25ft trailer for heat, however I do crack a vent or a window. This past month I ran into a guy my buddy knows that has a 16' utility trailer that he built bunks in, has a gas cooking stove, and a wood stove with a jack out the wall. The stove jack is removable when traveling and he spends months Steelhead fishing on the Salmon River below North Fork. He also has some nice pictures on the walls to keep him company at night.

We also use a Buddy heater in my other friends camp trailer but don't have to worry about ventilation since it leaks air like a sieve. Doesn't rock when the wind is blowing, so the heater is on high and hooked to a 7 gal tank outside.

In the tiny space you're talking about, a woodstove would likely take up too much space and be a danger, as well.

Had an 1958 18' Airstream I used in British Columbia and the western US; it was equipped w/ a built-in propane convection furnace which was fed outside air, for combustion. No danger to occupants. Nearly effective enough. Fairly large. My 1967 24' Silver Streak has a similar system. My boat has a diesel convection cabin heater which is very efficient but, again, too large for your app.

One of the small, portable catalytic heaters seems more suitable for your tiny trailer.

Buy a Atwood RV furnace off Ebay and install it.

No CO2 to worry about, and you can get a thermostat too.

I did.

I simply put the bottles on the tongue, run a propane line and put in a deep cycle battery for the rig. I can run it on one bottle all week, but I have to charge the battery every couple of days.

It's not hot enough to dry cloths out, but it's plenty warn for sleeping. I insulated the trailer with that pink foam too - the only thing that isn't insulated is the floor, I used foam to insulate the back doors (hard to take those pannels off).

Spot

Thanks to everybody for the ideas and cautions.

And thanks so much for the photos, Spot. That's a neat setup!

I can understand the desire to go off road with something warm. Heck, my "RV" is a 9'10" Lance Truck Camper on a 4WD truck, not a trailer or a 5th Wheel.
The thing about these are they can go any place you can make them fit. At -10, I loose my hot water. At -20, I loose both. Prior to that point, the forced air and design of the ducting keep the pipes running and the holding tanks from freezing. When it gets that cold, it's time to go home anyway.
One thing I've learned if you are staying out there for very long, you need to stay warm, especailly after a tough day in the mountains. A good night's rest and some warm food, and I can go for weeks. even months. But if i'm marginaly warm, I don't sleep well and "burn out" in a week or so. E

I had a Lance squire for a while and wished I had gone that way instead of a longer RV trailer.You can get them in many more places you can't a trailer..My Lance also had the small Catalytic heater...There much better for towing ATV's or horses..



Jayco

Small enclosures are generally easy to heat.
My RV is about twice the size of the one in question (22') and I have never felt the need to use the furnace. Simply making a pot of coffee heats the whole thing with just the residual heat from the burner.
I have to qualify that by saying it's not extreme cold where I hunt - about +10 degrees at the coldest. Also, I use a down bag.

Whatever heat source you wind up with a carbon monoxide/smoke detector would be a good idea.

Yeah, they make a very good unit. Had mine since '96'.
Odviously many options. E

Coming in late to the game, but I went through a similar deal building a small cabin.
The blue flame type heaters have a "safety feature" that only works when the place is depleted of oxygen because the flame on the thermocouple safety valve starts to fade away in low oxygen (told to me by the HVAC guy installing a new heating system in my mothers house)
Also - the water products from combustion go into the cabin and everything is damp or walls rot.

Direct vent models are available through northern, menards, etc for about 2X the price, but what is your safety worth?
Using a direct vent RV model may make more sense if they are built to road vibration.

Ever look at wood pellet designs? Although I lean towards the convenience of propane.

Redundant safety systems are always a good idea

Empire heaters there direct vent... A lot of people use them in wheelhouses and ice shacks... I got one in my wheel house works great..

Making coffee in a 6 x 12 trailer will heat it up. A Buddy propane heater works great while getting ready to hunt. If it were me I would add one of the really great small wood stoves available. You never run out of fuel and get to hear that wood pop and smell the smoke. Why are you out there in the first place?

I loved logcutters photo of a Nevada motor home.

Anything that burns will produce Carbon Monoxide unless its 100% efficient; which is near impossible to get. For warming in the morning or at night, the mr buddy should be okay, but if your wanting to burn all night....the CO buildup could be fatal.

Spotshooter has it dead on. Last year I finished my 8x16 fishhouse. It is insulated with the pink foam. It has a Suburban 20K BTU forced air furnace. Set the thermostate (!) and forget it. No safty worries, and can very confortably fish in sub zero MN winters. I also used a RV "power distribution center" that also has a battery charger built in. Plug in the gen set during the day, and charge the batteries. Runs all night off the batteries. For a lot of information, check out various web sites that deal with building fish houses.

Hope this helps.

dukhntr

Catalytic Propane Heaters: Catalytic heaters differ from other propane heaters in that the propane is combined with oxygen to create heat on the surface of a hot platinum catalyst, so that there is no flame. The absence of an open flame, and the relatively low temperature (the catalyst in the Olympian glows a faint, dull, red - visible only in the dark) increases the safety, relative to open flames. The catalytic process also results in a nearly perfect conversion of propane and oxygen into harmless carbon dioxide and water vapor, with no significant carbon monoxide produced.

Jayco