The last couple of years I've had the pleasure of watching and hunting some really nice, old bull elk. I was fortunate enough to do this both before and after the season opened. What really impressed me was how well they dealt with hunter pressure, including mine.
I'll give you an example. During the 2011 season, I watched two herds, one in particular, that held two old, four year class plus, six point plus bulls. This was before the season. Watched them for a week. Evem watched them move to within 300 yds of me when they spotted a wolf above them about a 1/2-3/4ths of a mile out.
They were always there, every morning. I stayed close to a mile from them and was often in the open. I'd get up and change position sometimes. They didn't care.
But when the season opened, they were not to be seen by anybody. Even by the guys that walked in their area in the dark. Seems they saw nothing wrong with walking up the ridge line with their headlamps on.
Second example. Watched another bunch with four big bulls in it for a week and a half before the 2012 season. Yet when the season opened, nobody got a shot. One guy walked into their favorite spot in the rain and darkness. Another headlamp user.
I saw two of those bulls move right around and past us. Just turning around slowly, to trying to setup for a shot at 600 yds., they picked up on my movement. Not enough to spook them, however.
They kept looking over their shoulders. After they left, and this was just after sunrise, three hunters appeared where they were watching, several hundred yards out. They knew just where to go and how fast they had to move.
Later in the season, I watched a guy on a stand up higher, near where these bulls would go into the timber. He'd been there most of the morning I later learned from his buddy. He saw nothing. An hour and a half after he left, at 2:00 PM, they came out to feed, not 300 yds. from where he sat. How's that for nerve and smarts ?
I wonder if I'll ever get a real chance at one of these very impressive animals. Of those that get taken, the vast majority seem to be taken in wilderness areas where they are more numerous, or on private land. I suspect they don't have as much experience with hunters either.
Have good friend that claims that some of the old bucks in his area, a very large desert area, are so good they are literally unhuntable. I suspect a few old bull elk are that good too. E

I still can't figure how you were caked with bulls these last two seasons and didn't get a shot off, let alone hunt a full day.

For years I have been trying to tell guys that when the elk hear back packers, horse packers, people setting up camp, pounding stakes,cutting poles, etc, moving in right before the season,the elk line out and leave.Then these same guys camp right in the middle of prime elk habitat and wonder where the elk go. Same thing, they then procede to walk around in the timber with the pretense of "scouting". What elk may be left from the previous noise of the packers, leave also. Add acouple of ATV's to the equations and you end up with a camping trip instead of a hunting trip. Guaranteed this will have repsonses from guys that say they see elk right around camp, etc, butvthatis theexceptionto therule

Where hunter pressure is low, this isn't as common, especially on private land where elk come in contact with landowners working the land more.

Any bull that lives to be 3 yrs old gets educated real fast.One big educator is these guys that persist on calling bulls in and then the bull either bust them or the guys decides that bull isn't big enough and spooks the bull on purpose.
Those bull stick that info away in the recesses of thier brain and use it the next time they hear a bugle.

Gotta remember it's life and death to them and just a game to hunters.

You don't get old by being stupid. Human, or animal.

That just doesn't seem true to me. Thousands of bulls are killed every year in Montana and loaded whole in the back of a pickup off of public land. Is it easy to find and kill a bull in those easy to access areas, no. But it's a numbers game, and the elk that live in those spots get killed. You're giving them too much credit.

+1

This^^, tips off just about any animal making them less likely to be seen.

I hunted Wyoming unit 39, 4 years ago on an limited entry "any bull tag". Was there 4 days early, did all of my scouting from a distance. Saw at least 100 different elk every day. Located several nice 6 point bulls and a couple in the 300+ class. Two days before the opener the rest of the hunters started showing up. Apparently the general deer season, and a cow elk permit hunt and my hunt all opened the same day. In one good sized drainage I had been watching there were two herds and well over 100 elk. The evening before the opener 4 guys, on horses, rode into the center of the drainage and set up camp.I was a mile away from them and could hear them laughing and carrying on. The next morning I started in off of the road at 4 am, walking on a trail I had scouted, in the partial moon night. I needed to get in a mile to locate on a small bluff overlooking the side I was on. Three seperate guys "ran" past me to get in ahead of me. It didn't matter the elk had already moved down towards private land. I did get a nice raghorn 3 days later however.

I Colorado at least and in OTC units especially, you hunt elk by trying to figure out what they are doing because of the other hunters.

For somebody with so much "self proclaimed knowledge" of all things guns and hunting, it appears E comes up short in the hunting experience department. Doing is different than reading E!!!

They are good, but not perfect. Play the wind, stay out of sight, and they can be had.

Yes, preseason scouting can certainly screw stuff up. Two seasons ago in Wyoming, a gentleman stopped by our camp with the observation that he had covered near 100 square miles on his 4-wheeler 2 days preseason and seen around 60 or 70 elk. He was 9 days into the season and couldn't come up with one. Even owned up that he had been well behind the road closure barriers.

Generally they are where you aren't. Even if you know they are there, they more likely than not, end up behind you. JMHO
Plan, plan and re-plan and they are where you were the day or days before. But, we hunt heavy timber because everybody we talk to wants to be on a ridge spotting.

No expert here by any means as I have only been elk hunting once. However, my advisor(ie: a local hunter) for that hunt told me to get somewhere good and stay put. It was opening day and his reasoning was the locals would be out road hunting and would keep them stirred up. I would just have to wait for one to come by. He was right. On the second day, I killed a small 5X5.

He may not be the huge trophy anyone would dream of but, he was an elk and that was my goal on the first hunt.

By the way, he won me the pot for the biggest bull(only bull) killed in our camp. Everyone else had shots and a couple took cows with their General tag.

In conclusion, I say you are right. Figure out what everone else is doing and compensate for it.

They are smart enough to find private ground where there is less hunting pressure. If there was no private ground to save some elk, the hunting would not be as good. Why else would everyone hunt the boundaries of the big ranches so much?

While bowhunting some years ago, my partner and I spotted a bull bedded down in a 1/2 acre patch of brush out in the middle of a large open area. We spotted him from the top of a ridge. We made a 1 mile loop to get down wind, then sneaked in and set up to call. My partner was sweet lips while I was on weapons duty. We must have called for an hour before we decided that he'd winded or spotted us and left while we were getting there. Wrong. I moved and he took off. He'd been bedded within 100 yds of us the whole time.

YUP

I have learned a lot by spending 3 or 4 days scouting right after elk season is over.

E hunt escape routes. First time the local elk herd hears the symphony of diesels clatting, horse trailers groaning , car and truck doors slamming they are packed and ready to go elsewhere.

On the ELK IQ question. I have seen more big bulls in archery,muzzleloader and rifle seasons then I have seen the equivalent WD buck during a season and I have spent more time hunting WD deer on a 100:1 ratio at the minimum.

First of all, RL, I have stayed out all day many times. And did so last season.
But more important, nobody else got any of those bulls either. E

There is huge difference between old bulls and the younger ones. I personally know several guys that have killed young bulls close enough to roads to load them whole. I know no one who has done it on public land with a 4 yr. old plus bull. E

E, Others I know an myself hunt public land have consistently taken 3-5 year old bulls. This is another of your "if it's not possible for me then it's not possible for ANYBODY" post. Get real man, I feel I see more mature animals during season than I do scouting but, we/I hunt nothing but escape routes that Joe 4 Wheeler are going to push animals to me. When hunting mature elk you can't be oblivious to Joe 4 Wheeler and what he can do for you. This year I went in alone but, went in 13 miles from any road with a couple mules. I could have shot (4) 3-4 year class animals in 3 days!! There smart but you have to be smarter.

The "E"magination is a powerful thing.

I had a cow tag this year. I got a cow out of herd of 70 to 80 elk with a number of very nice mature bulls within a mile of the road...as the crow flies. However, the crows wore oxygen tanks as they were 2000' above the road, right out in the open on a wide open ridge. I guess they felt secure up there where no hunter in his right mind would go (which explains how I got one). I'll never know how they let me get within range because I was in plain sight in knee high sagebrush from the road and the whole way up. I shot a cow but I easily could have got a good bull if I'd had a tag. I guess they felt safety in numbers or something as they weren't very wary and never saw me. Even after I shot, a doz cows spent 15 min on a low ridge about 300 yds away watching and barking at me while I worked on the cow.

I use a system that has served me well over the years. It's simple.

If I can see, or hear other hunters. I'm not where I should be.

Idaho did a study on bull elk mortality about 15-20 years ago before the wolves were brought in an area I used to hunt. The study was done in heavily roaded areas, lightly roaded areas, and difficult access areas. All bulls were radio-collared and located weekly during hunting seasons by air.

In heavy road areas over 60% of the bulls did not make it through hunting season. In lightly roaded areas more survived, but roughly 50 percent of collared bulls wound up dead. In difficult access areas about 30% wound up tagged. If you wanted a chance at a bull older than 2.5 years, the difficult access was where it was at.

Interesting thing from the study was the archery loss was pretty high and not a single elk over the the study died from winter kill or non-human predators (before wolves) The only way bulls in the study died was from bullets or arrows.

That study is about what i'd expect. How about the actual numbers of elk in those three areas? Did they give those numbers?

Eremicus,

You're making wayy too much out of how "smart" elk are.

IMO, and I've killed quite a number of elk (51), its really not a question of how smart an elk is, more a function of the country they choose to live in and how they respond to pressure.

For a bull to get old, they better not be standing next to a road that accessible via ATV, Truck, horse, or even foot trails in some cases.

Bulls that live to be old, usually just happen to choose a place to live where people dont hunt, or at least where theres just not the pressure.

Older, post rut bulls, seek out a secure place, usually off the beaten path, and stay there until some other factor forces them to move (snow, pressure, etc). If theres no reason for them to move...they likely wont. That makes them tough to find.

I'm not saying that elk arent capable of responding to pressure to find ways to survive...but they arent going to be challenging the theory of relativity anytime soon either.

I'm of the opinion that many hunters are much better at "out-smarting" themselves, than "outsmarting" elk. Hard work, staying positive, and staying out all day will lead to results.

The best elk hunters I know are extremely driven and focused. They'll get their butts kicked elk hunting 14 days straight, but they'll attack day 15 just as hard as the 14 previous. Those type of guys kill elk every year...they just flat refuse to fail. Its not they have better equipment, are better shots, glass better, or have some secret elk decoder pin...they just flat get it done.

Consistantly killing big bulls is hard work, most arent willing to do what it takes (myself included).

Well staying out of trouble is being smart for an elk. Survival is their main concern in hunting seasons. If they do that, they're smarter than the ones who get shot. Of course they aren't smarter than humans.

Seems you didn't learn a thing when others like Brad told you wear a headlamp. You are past the point of accepting advice, big elk are no smarter than a mature whitetail, no they aren't stupid but they are killable. Listen to others, you've been at this a long time and have nothing to show but are quick to say "I have the answers".

You talking to the OP?

Buzz, I think that's a VERY fine post and pretty well sums up my thinking.

I'd add, within that, mature bulls (IME) do most everything "right" consistently... that's what makes them tougher to get. Their consistency in making the "right" choices is a constant source of amazement to me. They're not supernatural, they just seem like it sometimes.

Quote "It's really not a question of how smart an elk is, more a function of the country they choose to live in and how they respond to pressure."

It's been proven over and over that the bulls are killable, but why do you think they choose the country they live in and why do they respond to pressure as they do. It's not all by sheer instinct.If they live 3-4 years,they figure it out. Super intelligent? No, but smart enough to evade hunters? Yes

In my younger days,I had runs where I killed bulls of all sizes many years in succession with really no thought of how hard it is. However, I had to pay my dues to learn how to do it. Once you figure that out it isn't all that hard.Particularly learning that you need to go where people aren't and have the drive/desire, and capability to do so.

Yes, they do seem supernatural at times.
One year, I found an old bull literally living less than a 1/4 mile from a trailhead. We got a few inches of fresh snow, so I tried to track him.
When I found his tracks that morning, it looked like a couple of hunters were already on him. But then I noticed that his tracks were on top of theirs....
I tracked him for over an hour in a circular route in the broken timber. Looking back, I realized that I wasn't paying attention to the wind.
He left his living area, and, in broad daylight, crossed a large open area, and then the road I'd used to get to the area. Tracked him all day. Never saw him.
The odd thing was that he wasn't there on the opener. We had snow that weekend, and I'd been there a couple of times. I found his tracks there almost two weeks later on some old snow. I believe he felt he could get away with living there, simply because he had alot of confidence in his abilities. He sure beat me.
Moral of the story, watch the air currents.
The other lesson was that they do move around alot during the season. I've seen this myself. Bull elk moving into areas where they don't normally go. Even areas w/o water for miles.
Yes, doing alot of looking, even in unlikely areas apparently pays off.
At my age, I'm limited as to how much of this I can do. A couple of dark to dark days, and I'm way down on energy and attention span. Like it or not, I have to pick and choose where and what I do.
The bottom line is that these are fascinating, majestic animals that are a privilage to hunt. E

+100. I always tell people scout like you're still hunting. Of course most folks have not a clue how to still hunt.

No sheet on that one.

Nonsense. We walk right through the middle of them. Camp within a half mile of them and still have no trouble shooting elk. Make meat. Not excuses.

I kill an elk every year, soemtimes two, all on public land, DYI, and have done so for 20+ years. The hunting party I go with usually averages 90% + every year. Just passing on what I have learned. If you have succes that way, go for it. Not what I have found though.

Not what I have experienced in Montana either.

Kinda hate to mention this, but I know some elk hunters who don't consider a 4-year-old bull "old."

I've been lucky enough to hunt both private and public land in a few places over the years. There are some 8-10 year old bulls way back on public land, but have seen far more on private--especially after the first week of hunting season pushes them off public land. A few years ago I got to hunt a big ranch not far from where I live in Montana, and the first evening glassed over 30 branch-antlered bulls spread across three parks, over a mile away.

One group consisted of 8 bulls that all were well over 4 years old. This was in mid-November, three weeks after the rifle season opened. They'd all filtered into the ranch over those three weeks--actually probably during the first two days of the season. They knew from several seasons of experience where they weren't likely to be bothered. The ranch owner only allowed 2 bulls to be taken every year--though he did allow antlerless hunting, after the 2 bulls had been taken.

A good bull can smell, here and see you better than you can see him.

that being said if your stomping around unknown area he's got the upper hand, however, if your a good still hunter, or you are hunting during the rut he's dumb and drunk..

They aren't ghosts, but aside from using weather changes to get them to expose themselves, good still hunting skills, and possibly hunting during the rut sure changes the odds.

If the odds are against you - they are

As smart as you think the old bulls are. The young bulls are stupider.

Which is the point of this thread.

In Colorado,on public land, a 4 year old bull is an older bull as there are not many that get past that age, except in the trophy managed areas. In OTC areas, you are hard pressed to find one that is over three. Of course every year there are exceptions.

Sorry haven't checked back on this thread.

I don't remember the number of bulls collared, but it was a pretty decent amount and over the years of the study I saw several collared bulls while hunting and know a couple guys that shot collared bulls.

As you might expect, in easy access areas the game department actually had trouble finding bulls to collar due to the fact that many got shot each year. In those areas, spikes made up the majority of the bulls killed.

When the signal on a collared bull showed that it wasn't moving they would send a guy in on the ground to see what was up. Usually it was a shot and lost affair. I ran into biologists and their crews looking for bulls several times and they had some interesting stories. In one case, two raghorn bulls took up residence fairly close to one of the few roads in the area by spending their time in a little hidey hole for a couple weeks during the mid-point of rifle season. One bull was shot by a hunter and the other raghorn hit the road getting out of Dodge. The raghorn moved 11 miles in one night after their hideout was hit. This was 11 miles in some of the brushiest steep country North-Central ID has to offer and was roadless the entire way.

Thanks for the info. Do know if they ever did a similar study on cows?

I know of a radio collared cow elk in the Black Hills that after the first day of elk season travel 18 miles east to west as the crow flies. She crossed several north to south running canyons that were substantial.

Not that I know of as most cow hunting was restricted to archery season, some muzzleloader, and limited controlled rifle hunting.

To hunt a bull elk, one simply had to just go buy an over the counter tag. This study was to see the differences in bull mortality in areas that had high access with most roads open, areas with closed roads, and areas with poor vehicle access.

In my mind this study really drove home the point that lots of open roads and unlimited bull tags usually means bulls don't live long.

Fascinating, Lonny. Thank you for posting that. E

Prettty much what I have always found. In Colorado,before the 4 pt restriction was put in place, probaly 80% of bulls killed were spikes, maybe even more. They did not live long enough to get wised up.For a few years it was slim pickings,but then killing a branched antlered bull was not all that hard, but still that 1-2 years that the spikes matured into 3-4 pointers,gave them enough time runnning with a herd,they figured out enough to stay alive that some matured into 5-6 x's.

Lonny do you have any more info about the archery loss thingy? Was this about elk hit and taken home and or elk hit and not found or what? Any idea?

Thx
Dober

Mark, it was bulls hit and not found by the hunter, but found dead by the researchers later. I'm just going from memory here, but at one time I had the study report and since it's been awhile back I'd hate to make a incorrect statement on the number that sticks in my head about the percentage of bulls lost from arrows. I do remember it was higher than I would have guessed.

One thing that might be mentioned is much of this country where the study was done isn't conducive to finding hit animals. The country is very brushy and even a 100 yard dash after a hit could require some serious looking and luck to find. No BS here, but I located a couple of my dead bulls with my nose. It was easy to walk within a few yards of a dead elk and still not spot it.

Bulls were also lost from rifle hits and one time driving to elk camp late on a Friday night I picked up a wet and cold research guy walking down the road with his telemetry stuff trying to locate a bull that hadn't moved in a few days. He was pretty certain it was dead, but hadn't located it yet.

Eremicus
You sound like I was when starting to elk hunt. One difference is I had a friend who was an elk slayer. He showed me the ropes and the learning curve was shortened. I never was the hunter he was but I got better. One time we were hunting together and were driving a two track up a drainage. It had snowed about an inch during the night. We were on the road at about 2 pm. A lone elk track was seen crossing the road. He stopped the rig and started glassing the other side of the canyon. I was glassing also but after 20 or 30 minutes I stopped. He did not and a bit later said I found the bull that made those tracks. When told where to look and other help rock by rock I finally saw what he saw, part of one side of a 5 point rack but not the whole elk or even part of the elk. He had about 1 1/2 hour to climb that mountain side and kill the elk. Which he did. He came back out in the dark. That is how some kill elk while the rest of us stumble around and if we are lucky we also will kill some times. The elk hunters do it year after year.

Find the best hunter you can and pay him for some on the job training. He can show you the how but you must do the doing. The hardest work you will ever love.

I read in a hunting rag a while back an article written by a well known writer/hunter that he was watching a herd of elk when a big cat (as in D9) came up a road the elk looked up then kept on grazing when he went down the same road in his truck the elk vamoosed. They quickly learn which sounds are dangerous and which sounds are OK.

Don't give the road hunters any ideas, or they'll show up in D9's.

Whoops gave away my secret, dang... have to learn to keep my fingers off the keyboard.

PS they don't mind the 500 gallon tanker to keep the D9 fueled up too much either.

Goll damb boys! Have YOU ever been out hunting and all of a sudden the hear on your neck stands up and goe's to your head? Just a guess but I bet elk are same-same.Kawi

For me it happens in a city.

Very seldem woods, or city but!? Kawi

An old bull can be pretty smart.

The ones that used to give me fits were the old-bitch lead cows. After our paid hunters were all filled-up and happily gone, I used to make it my goal to kill one of those wise fourty year old buggers.

And I would, but it was a struggle. They'd always be "grinders;" sausage, pepperoni and hamburger.

Then, we'd kill a bull calf for our steak meat. They are "round" when viewed from stem or stern. Head shot and you've got some real eating meat.

The bulls, especially old bulls, tend to be pretty darned smart, but they are also rare, so that makes them more difficult.

For my money, it's the wise ancient herd leader, the lead cow with four decades of experience under her belt that is the smartest elk of all.

Funny thing. Occasionally, I've had a bunch of guided hunters lined up on a herd of elk and I'd ask them if I could brain the lead cow. When I explained the situation, they'd always say "Yes." I'd blow her brains or carotids out and she'd dump right there ... the remainder of the herd would not know what to do.

Their leader was gone and they'd stand for a little, or mill around and stand. Meanwhile, my guys would kill what they needed to. And maybe I'd be asked to help if a guy or two had problems getting their cows to stay down.

Kill the lead cow and you're Golden.

God Bless,

Steve

I had an interesting experience this year; the day after filling my tag, we were sitting around our small camp, not long after sunrise, drinking our cups of hot coffee and heard a series of bugles. It was clear they were getting closer so we moved to where we could get a glimpse of them. We were camped in a treeline just off a small lake and a field that was ~250 yards across. From directly downwind, and tucked in some small trees, we watched as ~10 elk, mostly cows, but 2 spikes and a smallish bull, entered the field on the far right side. I could see where they wanted to cross the field right to left and head towards some private land. The herd bull was still bugling away but we could not see him. The small herd stopped about 90 yards into the field waiting for the bull. The bull made it to the treeline but would not enter the field. Just once, he trotted into the field and circled around a single tree that stuck out and then he went immediately back into the trees. I could watch him with the binos as he hung back about 20 yards inside the trees. He was bugling away the whole time. The herd started to continue across the field a few times but seemed to respond to his screams by pausing. Finally, the old bull, he was a nice big 6x6, much larger than the bull I shot, turned to his right and skirted the field staying well within the treeline. The herd took a right turn and met back up with him in the woods and they continued on their way remaining in the cover. It was an interesting observation to see him clearly dictate the movement of the group, and he wanted nothing to do with the open space. Not sure if 'smart' is the correct term, but that bull demonstrated some good survival instincts or skills.

I get it when I read your posts.

The lead cow is the last elk i'd kill, unless you want the meat. I don't like sausage, or jerky.

"Fourty" year old elk? What am I missing?

Bit of a stretch. 18-20 years would be the limit to me. Maybe 10 years in the wild.

I had to learn the hard way about those wise old lead cows.
My second year elk hunting, I found a way into an area where there were alot of elk and no public hunters. Got there long before legal shooting light. The second bunch of elk I ran into was a herd of some 50 plus animals with a large bull at the very end of the herd. As I was trying to get into position to shoot, the lead cow spotted my movements and locked her attention on me. All that old bull had to do is realize the lead cow was onto something. She was 200 yds ahead of him, but she stopped and watched me. The rest of the herd stopped, but just milled around. He saw just that, turned around and headed back the way he had come. Had the reticle on him for a few seconds but he wasn't clear of the cows.
Ah, me. E

One time when I was scouting at timberline in August. I came to this nice looking elky meadow. I decided to sit under a tree and have a snack.

About 100yds away a herd of 20-30 cows showed up. I froze in position with my mouth full of peanut butter sandwich. The lead cow spotted me right away, and starred me down. The rest of the cows could care less, and went about feeding. I tried to chew and swallow, but it was sticking in my throat. I really wanted to watch them, so I was trying to stay frozen. That lead cow never moved, and never stopped starring at me.

I was cramping up, and needed to move. I was also choking and needed a drink. I finally gave it, and made the slightest move to relieve the cramp.. She gave a fast chirp to the herd, and they were gone as fast as they appeared.

Lead cows are a bitch. Pretty hard to get the best of them.

If one shoots the lead cow they take away a lot of knowledge from the herd as to where to travel for migration etc.You might make it easier to kill the other elk in the herd,but you sure don't do much for the integrity of the herd.

There are thousands of elk hunters in CO that still sit on meadows thinking that is where the elk will come to.Now days, most elk leave open meadows before 1st light and don't move back out until dusk. Better succes is figuring out the routes they normally use and then fade back into the timber 100-200 yards

I agree in hunting seasons. Pre hunt seasons they're out much longer.

I don't hunt meadows. That's for non resident rifle hunters. I hunt the timber.

After 30 yrs of whitetail and 8 years of elk hunting, my humble opinion is that whitetail outsmart you and elk outrun you. When they hear sounds that indicate the woods ain't what they used to be, the elk move their operations to another area and whitetails hunker down. This is a generality, not a firm rule. Elk will hunker and deer will move on occasion.

Here in AZ, I'm learning the key is when a sound is spooky and when it's not. Before the season, almost nothing is spooky. That changes at nightfall prior to opening day.

Many times I've been posted on a ridge at blackdark waiting for glassing light. Often elk have been audible kicking rocks, whacking horns or breaking sticks 1,000 yards away or more. It's just amazing how well sound travels in that cold, dry, high air before any wind is stirring. Then I ask myself, "If I hear this, what have they heard?" The answer is everything for the last hour, including my sneaking. In the tinder-dry thickets of manzanita and oak at mid-elevation Arizona, it is virtually impossible to move soundlessly at anything over 50 feet per hour. The elk I listen to in in the dark just happen to be out of range and they know it.

It's a game they win almost every time. At least against me ...

A cow chirp will help if you can't be quiet walking while elk hunting. The elk are used to other elk being noisy.

That might get you through the first step. But not the next thousand.

Elk don't walk that far?

I'm surely no expert on elk age, but we had an appaloosa elk, white spots all over it and a totally white ass in Temperance Creek. The outfitter and one of the grizzled wranglers swore that they saw the appy elk as a calf many years ago.

I tried like crazy to kill that ancient bitch, but she outsmarted me every time.

Finally, the outfitter managed to kill her. She had no teeth, but was eating well ... probably because she could feed at the best places and on the best grass.

Anyway, the wrangler and the outfitter figgered she was forty. I cannot attest to that, but I actually saw her as anfull grown and fairly old adult fully twenty years before.

Wikipedia and all that [bleep] says that the maximum age for elk is 25 years. I would guess that also depends on the area and that Hell's canyon might be a special case.

Hell's Canyon is the ruggedest area I've ever hunted and it is the deepest canyon in North America ... Yep, deeper than the Grand Canyon by a significant amount.

The elk travel up and down the elevations, depending on feed, snow and temperature. It is quite possible for an elk to drop a whopping 5,632 feet in a few hours (Hat Point to Snake River).

I've seen it way below zero on top, at Warnock Corral, when I had a line of mules full of elk parts, and dropped down to our 3,500 foot camp and it's been +20�. Drop to Snake River and it's likely to be a roasting 40�.

Not many elk are killed on the Oregon side. The country is simply too danged rough. By the way, when killing there, the first thing a fella looks at is the possiblity of getting the elk out. I have passed on hundreds of elk over the years ... they were simply impossible to get out of a hole or canyon with no access.

Maybe tomorrow the elk would be where we could kill them ... or maybe we'll run into some more in the next drainage. Not getting greedy is a good attitude in rough country; I learned that the very hardest possible way.

Dominus vobiscum,

Steve

Everybody seems to agree that a 20 year old elk is very old. I can't see double that happening.

Well DZ, how about posting a story about the 'very hardest possible way'? That sounds like a good one. I like the remote, tough country, too. Mostly because I don't want to see many people. It is different out there.

Nobody would believe.

It was close to zero degrees. I killed a huge old cow and the top (probably 5,000 feet ASL) of whatever creek is to the north of Rush Creek. She fell and started sliding in the icy grass ... and down ... and down ... and over a five-hundred foot cliff ... and down ... and down ... over another cliff that almost killed me descending ... and slid maybe another two thousand vertical feet.

I will not say show far she slid, I actually know, but it was far.

I eventually got down to the old bitch and butchered her properly

It all started at nine in the morning and I had to descend to Snake River, walk up to Rush Creek and up the creek to our camp. I arrived way, way, way after dark.

I was tired to the bone, even in the finest physical shape of my life. BUT, I was alive.

Never get greedy, especially in hard country. That comment goes triple when guiding paid-hunters; they are normally of no practical use whatsoever.

Dominus vobuscum,

Steve

DAMN!!

Gotcha.

Not elk killing, but one wet year we were late and going down the trail from Warnock Corral to our 3,500 foot camp on Temperance Creek. We had golly knows how many horses and mules and we were carrying the whole camp with us ... plus some feed.

Anyway, it was a dark and rainy night and the mud was running down the horse trail like cement flowing down a chute. I was kinda in the middle and my horse was just following the pack horse in front of him.

Anyway, I can't see [bleep], it's just black and we hit a steep part of the down trail and I can feel my horse, Gus, lock his front legs stiff and rare back. He's sitting down on his back legs and we're skidding uncontrolled down the trail. Did I mention I couldn't see [bleep]?

Then, I hear a horse wreck in front of me. The outfitter was in front of me with maybe ten dallied horses and his horse absolutely COULD NOT negotiate the turn in the trail. The horse just plain went up and over and into a thicket and down into the creek.

Horses were screaming. The outfitter is yelling. Horses are thrashing around.

Then, I saw the outfitter's flashlite pop on.

[bleep], things are serious. All you horse hunters know that you NEVER light a flashlight in the dark. It kills your horses night vision for a time.

When the outfitter lit that light and I knew things were bad.

Then, I came closer to the light and I never had a chance. My horse went right off the end of the trail (the one flowing mud like [bleep] cement) and I'm off and into the slew of downed, thrashing and dicked-up tailed horses.

Gut hit the creek and I went over his head, right into four feet of Temperance Creek ... It was maybe 35� and the creek was prolly colder. Gus was thrashing around and my tailed mules were screaming, thrashing and mostly down & fighting.

The noise, the confusion, was unreal.

I never heard it when Karen came to the edge and somehow her horse made the corner and down the trail. She heard us, of course and the literal combat zone.

Not so, the outfitter's wife. Her horse almost made the corner, but slipped off and into the brush slightly further down. She also ended up in the creek. Her language and putting together of words we all know ... well, it was very inventive

That was it, three horse wrecks out of four bunches of tailed horses & mules.

The miracle was that nobody; no person, no horse, no mule was hurt. A couple of the mules had scrapes, but nobody died and there were no broken bones.

The outfitter's wife and I about froze to death on the way to camp and I ended up walking quite a bit, holding Gus' tail (he was GREAT that way) on the flats. Downhill or up, I mounted Gus and relied on his steadiness.

Anyway, it all ended well, but I surely thought we had some dead or horribly disabled horseflesh, not to mention our own safety.

Obviously, this is all first-draft and if I wrote it up for an article, it would probably double in size and, hopefully, be finer writing. But, it will never see print ... only right here.

Dominus vobiscum,

Steve

Holy Moly dogzapper! It sounds like you have been blessed with that old Chinese curse "May you live in interesting times". So far your stories look like material for a whole book with sequels!

I can't even come close to your tales! Back in CO, I once ran into what may have been a rogue cow who had retired as lead cow. I sure got some lessons from her. This was back when I was younger and my knee didn�t need replacing yet. I have never had the luck to hunt supported by riding stock, so my lot is to hunt shanks-mare. One day after more than a week of days of slogging up and down the mountain, postholing in the horse tracks along the access trails, and hunting blowdown criscrossed timber, I was a little worn down. Racing the horse hunters was just not working. So I decided to take an easier day and hunt a lower finger ridge where I had once seen a really nice mule deer buck. I was poking my way down the top of the ridge, tehoretically deer hunting, when I cut another hunter�s very fresh tracks coming from the opposite end, so I knew he had cleared off the ridgetop. Nevertheless, I continued down the ridge to see what tracks I might cut. Shortly I found a huge elk bed. Close inspection indicated that he had blown out an enormous cow who had been bedded solitary and securely in a very defensible position. Her leaps down off the ridge were impressive, Olympian, despite knee to crotch deep snow! Shortly I ran into the hunter and upon inquiry, not only was he unaware of the cow, but he had no intention of following.

Unfortunately I had a cow tag, and am apparently lousy at promising myself I won�t do something stupid. I had vowed not to undertake a marathon that morning, but here I was looking at fresh cow tracks leaping off the ridge, crossing the valley, and heading up the mountain. Sigh! I had to follow. She had a good head start. I hoped, foolishly, that she might have gotten over her fright, and relaxed, and even might bed down in the timber. I am a timber hunter, so that idea appealed greatly.

Ha! That old biddy crashed off the ridge, ran up the next ridge, got into some horrible deadfall, and then stopped � standing in the top of a deadfall of lodgepole with its needles still on. She had waited there for a long time. She must have seen me on her trail and left. She went through open talus in heavy snow, then through a bedding area where she stood in an elk bed and jumped uphill almost 15 feet into the tracks of other elk. That took a while to sort out, I have to admit. Then she took me through more tangle, always up lung-busting steep hillsides. She stood and waited in several places to see if I was still coming. Bye and bye, I knew I could not possibly get her, but I had to see what would happen. She doubled back, used other fresh elk tracks, reversed direction, and dragged me through several open areas of deep snow with talus or sage where she could easily watch for me. I finally saw her. After the last steep talus patch, when I was practically crawling, I spotted just her ears and eyes watching me from the other side of a ridge. She was standing in the gully on the far side, out of sight except up to the bottom of her eye sockets. It was maybe 60 yards. Our eyes met, and she was off again. I was a pawn. She made a monkey of me in the end. After many hours of that chase I was beat, but I sure got an education. I parted then, wishing her well, and hoping she had left behind a string of offspring with her wisdom. Given her size, she must have been amcient, and should have had a string of maybe 18 to 20 calves brought up. Hopefully they inherited her smarts. If wolves ever move down there, they will need all the smarts they can get.

"and am apparently lousy at promising myself I won�t do something stupid."

I know the feeling.

Early in the rut, you'll often see the lead cow galloping cross country with the other cows behind and the bull dragging his tongue trying to keep up. My theory is that it's her duty to find as many stray cows as possible for her bull and covering the max amount of distance is the way she does it.
One year I saw a herd about a dozen barreling down the side of a long, steep, bare slope. She stopped at the bottom in some trees. When the bull finally caught up, she took off again, right back up the same slope.
In Idaho, archery season opens just as the rut starts so bow hunters see some stuff like this that most rifle hunters don't. This early rut running seems to be fairly common around Labor Day and I've seen it many times.

Very interesting, RC. That almost sounds like a fitness test for the bull, administered by the lead cow. If he can't keep up with her, he is of inadequate fitness to sire the next generation. Huh. Facinating what tidbits show up in these forums.

I don't know if it's for fitness testing or for finding cows, but they do do it. One year, we watched a herd of about 16 cows race over a ridge and off to one side of us. They were followed by a 4x4. We had to scratch our heads about how he got all those cows and concluded that he stole them when the herd bull was off fighting or something. Anyway, they were really covering the ground at that fast trot they have. We ran into them again 1/2 hr later. However, the little bull had just been reduced to satellite bull status by a nice 6x6. He was less than pleased about losing his harem.

I would bet they never really were "his". That may be why he wasn't keeping up. Possibly the original herd bull got whacked, and the little guy tried to become the big guy. I have watched that behavior in pronghorn. Any satellite buck or bull had better try to get his job done fast, 'cause he is not going to keep a harem long. When that happens with pronghorn - the herd buck being whacked - those does bust out pretty quick and make an escape. They are always followed by whatever satellite bucks are hanging around the edges.

Be an interesting study if one had enough time.

They often tell this as a joke, but it endures because is much truth in it. It has much wider applications.

The young bull says, "let's run down there and have our way with one of those cows."
The old bull replies, "let's walk down there slow and have our way with the whole herd."

I have found this to be the simple truth. I have seen it more time than I care to count. Heck I was one of those guys for a long time wondering where in the heck did the elk go.

Now I play the escape routes. I try and learn my area well enough and just try and anticipate the pressure. Then I just try and get high and glass. Elk will camp on the same bench all season if something has moved them there. Why move if you feel comfortable.

I have found in several of my areas that the elk have established travel routes. Traditionally those have paid off but don't get the idea I kill elk every year. I don't. It's just sometimes they are where they are supposed to be and sometimes...