Barnes Bullets for elk?

I have an elk hunt coming up later on and was hoping to hear from those who have never used a Barnes bullet on elk.

So please, if you have used Barnes bullets on elk please don't post here on this thread.

Maybe some of you guys who have used only Partitions or Bergers on elk could weigh in. That would be great.

Thank you.

Never used them, and for me that has worked out fabulously!

LOL...that just may be the best answer of the day!

I read somewhere that they over penetrate.

bummer, and I had pics too....

Sorry about that Lefty, I only want to hear from the knowledgeable experts.

oh, ok.... sigh....

I'll let you keep a clean and pic-free thread...

I've never used a Barnes on an elk, but was sitting next to my wife when she did. Do I qualify or not?

I was going to use a Barnes, but changed my mind, and stayed with Partitions.

Does that count?

My proctologist's brother-in-law's mailman used them. I wouldn't trust a word he said though, the guy surrounds himself with assh***s.

I've heard Barnes are only useful on African game, as African game is way tougher than North American game.

Exploding bullets are where it's at for elk.

Ive never used a Barnes on an elk....does that help?

No ingwe, that does not help. Leaders are readers! And we
need reading experts.

We all know that people have killed big game with Barnes Bullets are unreliable and biased. Not to be trusted even though they may have experience using them.

I'd love to shoot Barnes bullets. I have bullet cost windows though. I will only pay less than 50 cents or more than 5 dollars apiece, and Barnes doesn't make any in the calibers I shoot that fit those windows. Maybe when they make a STQSX (Super-Tipped Quadruple Shock X) or a LRSTQSBT (the longe-range boattail version) in 30 cal and charge 100 bucks for a box of 20. I bet those would kill elk!

Actually the best leaders are ones who read poorly and only from the internet. They use this "information" to develop an OPINION and that is what we should follow!

I hope to shoot an elk someday....

The best leaders are also the guys who make the most noise. High post count = huge amount of knowledge.

Alternatively, repeating the knowledge gained from a very small amount of experience a thousand times makes for sage advice.

Better hurry, you're running out of time.

just got back into elk camp, instead of taking an archery hunter out this morning, I drove to the next unit over to scout for my brother and nephew's rifle cow hunt next weekend.


I saw a lamp table with a lamp, a parlor chair... and gentleman in a suit posed with his elbow on the table and his legs crossed. in the forest off the road, nothing else around.

whether it was art or statement... I didn't get it.


on the way out I hit a group of LDS reenactment young folks, wearing traditional pioneer clothing pulling about 30 hand carts down a dirt road.

if the two events were related I still don't get it.

this took to long to write on my phone... there will be no subsequent posts.

thank you for your attention.

kent

That beats most of the 'didn't expect that on my hunt' stories I've heard.

Dat was mean.

I know, words hurt.

Lighting it up now.

That's territory that would cover 99% of the campfire that recommend them for elk... as you know!

Damnn fine thread...

I have never used them on elk, though i have used them on other animals. For some reason, they work fine on deer and bears. I am not sure that they will kill an elk though.

Elk are bulletproof.

Everybody knows when Ingwe was hunting Irish Elk they were chunking spears and big rocks. His drawings are still in caves....

I know nothing about not using Barnes bullets and have pic's too. Shucks.

And now his drawings are on the innanet, and are animated..

Look, heres one now!

And now the [bleep] are extinct!!!! [bleep]' Ingwe!!! !thanks a million!!!

Shows you that I'm good at what I do.....

I know I'm not supposed to comment on this thread but...


I ate a ham and Muenster sandwich with a RC cola.

kent

I love RC cola.

And a Moon Pie.

I took one Elk with a 250 gr 338 Barnes X years back.
The elk died so I guess it was OK, but my Rifle didn't shoot them as well as it did Nosler Partition so I switched
I got a deal on 500 200 grainers this year so I loaded a bunch up for my 338-06 but haven't shot anything but paper so far
They group well.

My gawd,if you have to ask-especially here-you don't have a clue....

Yes I have used Barnes on Elk.

WOW......

Jayco

Only you wouldn't "get" the original post...

The Irish or the elk? Or the spears and rocks?

Where'd you get that RC cola? Those are extinct in Montana I think. mtmuley

More like "shots" of Whiskey and ice.

The wife gets them at Wal-Mart.

OK, I used the others, or saw them used, elk went down slow, but died. LOL. Accubond, I mean.

I know Barnes, because I stayed at the Holiday Inn.

I've only used the 150g Partitions in my 270s, but the new 150g Long Range Accubond has tweaked my interest.

Christina killed this turkey with a Nosler Ballistic Tip.




Does that help??

LMAO. You go, girl.

so, a 100 gr wacem DRT'ed a spike elk this afternoon... bullets are way overkill for NA large game.


kent

I never hunted elk. I have never had the slightest desire to hunt elk. Elk are only slightly ahead of shooting a moose on my bucket list, and that's only because I want to eat some fresh moose and I know places I could shoot a moose right next to a road

I do shoot deer with Barnes bullets. I shot a chipmunk and a red squirrel with Barnes bullets. They way over penetrated both. The red squirrel bullet went through the little bastard and then through an 8 inch aspen. It completely wrecked both the shoulders on the squirrel. I won't use on for them again.

I saw a youtube video of a guy who lined up bull elk like gallon water jugs and shot them with Barnes bullets.

Usually went through 4 1/2 elk.

Long ways

It would if she hadn't used an assault rifle.....


I killed an elk once with a pistol. Would have done it again but I could only kill him once....

I shot a bear with a pistol, had to shoot him more than once... must'a been one of those africanized bears.

kent

I saw a guy named Barnes kill an elk one time with and old '55 DeSoto. Didn't over penetrate but he it was only moving like 40 or 50 feet a second on bias ply tires. And he was using leaded gasoline.

Sooooooo, the projectile doesn't have to be of extreme velocity and non-toxic...?

I killed a five point with my 95 step side... radials and boatails result in many more DRTs

kent

I love the fact that Campfire threads seem to be lightening up lately. But one thing we can count on is logcutter making the, uh, least conscious post in any elk thread, which doesn't always detract from the mood of the moment.

Perfect bullets for elk..DRT.

That's saying a lot, given the stiff competition.

There are a lot of Perfect Bullets for elk which will knock DRT.

Even an old core-loc in the right place will knock them DRT.

I thought we were picking on the Poobah and talking about RC cola?

Funniest post on the thread!

I was hoping my turdlike status was improved ! Is that a bump or down?

I see your little birdy and raise you a Bart moon!

You guys quit joking,this is serious chit to us that want to learn, how too anything on the fire.

And yes,Bergers on Brown Bears is a good idea for some.


Jayco

Barnes on Elk..They just work.

.270 TSX



Jayco

That's what you want a bullet to look like? Yikes...

Well ya,don't you?

As Jeff Foxworthy would say:

If your elk bullet starts with a B.....You may be a dumnazz....



Boogers and Barnes......

Jayco

John;
Happy Canuck Thanksgiving to you and yours sir.

While I am cognizant you're not a Canuck or I don't think so anyway, I believe that I can wish you all a Happy Thanksgiving without causing too much international tension.

Anyway sir, your post is indeed helpful as we've had a turkey season up here for a few years now - illegal immigrants from WA these birds are no less!

We've not been able to even so much as see a live bird yet though John, so being able to see what we're supposed to be hunting is quite helpful.

Although we can't hunt with most AR variants up here - a Tavor would be fine - no AR,AK or FN-FAL though. - we can and do hunt bunny rabbits with "sorta" black rifles.



Sorry now to the OP, I can't recall what the topic was.......

Oh, yes that was it - the rabbit wasn't shot with an TSX variant so I think I'm OK to post this - maybe?????

All the best to you and yours John and good luck on your hunts this fall.

Dwayne

To the OP:
Have NEVA used those Barnes things & never will!! Grossly overrated & overpriced in my opinion! Have uses a lot of Nosler Partitions & they are worked well. Even have recovered a few which is telling. Really haven't been able to fault the 'ol cup & core. It IS all about placement!
Cheers

I agree with you on the placement being the major factor, but wanted to mention that TTSXs and Partitions are very similar in price.

The same guy who made the youtube video showing Barnes bullets penetrating 4 1/2 elk on average has another penetration test video with elk and depleted Uranium rounds.

Average penetration was 4 elk

I really don't want to see my bullet after killing elk. I want the bullet to enter, expand nicely, fragment some, plow through bone if needed, exit the off side and end up in the dirt somewhere.....

In 08...

I shot a lion with a Slick Trick... arrow went at least 30 yards to the brushy hillside, I couldn't find it.

I shot an antelope at 55 yds and the arrow went 15 paces beyond.

I shot a coyote and it was stuck in the dirt just on the other side.

I shot a jackrabbit and it skipped a'ways off.

Damned overpenetrators not leaving all the energy in the animal.

I think I'll switch to mechanicals...

Kent

Quit joking? Did you read the first post?

That was a pun since you didn't catch on.

Jayco

It seemed to match your first posts that weren't puns.

Owe but it was,just a different angle.I "do not" take this crazy will this bullet work chit seriously as most don't..

Now carry on grandpa and quit trying to phsycho-analyze my post.

You don't want in my head...

Jayco

So ya think that if you shot them with field points and found the arrows in the dirt downrange that you'd have been butchering soon after?

Yep, it's all about penetration! LOL

Best post so far.

It left me speechless with no comeback.

You silly gooses....

Watching the elk in my backyard made my brain crazy.Every day 20-42 Elk just walking by and the only thing I could pop,was a beer.



Jayco

Go wrestle one to the ground, and make it give up.

I once saw a "Bar X" cattle truck kill an elk, bone crushing knock down power, complete penetration, no expansion to speak of, weight retention was 100% (possibly even gained a few lbs) and it never even slowed down!

I doubt that is what did it...

I think you meant to say "thilly."

Every time I look at this, my brain reads "Go wrestle one to the ground, and make love..."

What are you gonna do, Jayco?

Seriously though, Jayco, since you have some elk handy, why don't you just take a survey? Certainly these elk should have some input regarding bullets.

Dwayne,

Thanks for the kind words and great picture.

Hear is a picture I am sure you will appreciate. Bunnies and 22s and kids. Love high cycle years.

Coniglio agrodolce or coniglio alla cacciatore?

I have great recipes for both!

My assumption is those are some sort of rabbit dishes? Please post the recipes as this is surely the proper thread.

The bunnies pictured were filleted and fried and you had better be on your game to do better.

SOB....Has it come down to exchanging recipes?

A broadhead out penetrates a field tip... but hell, a field tip in the heart or brain would kill PDQ.

I'd wait and shoot them in the eye...

Kent

Stand by for rabbit recipes.

Snowshoe rabbit and Blue Grouse shot with a handgun while sitting on the ground...

Wow, I suddently want to kill some rabbits now! Details?

Awesome!


Sweet 'N Sour Rabbit, Italian Style...






Just substitute rabbit for the chicken. Self explanatory...

I was, but dunno now, maybe. What's the question?

OK. You're welcome.

I have never shot a bull with a Barnes. I have shot one with a Berger.








They work. Only way a Barnes would work better is if the Barnes DRT'd it, Skinned it, Gutted it, and packed it out for me...

Thank You!

Glad to see you're a Barnes bullet specialist and expert. Though you've never killed BG with them.

Dude, you're only supposed to post on this thread if you've NEVER killed an elk with them. Read th OP

If you just want to hear from elk hunters without Barnes Bullets, I can fill that niche quite easily. I have killed somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 elk, never using a Barnes bullet. For that matter I have killed few with any premium bullet at all.

The vast majority of elk I have killed was with a 30-06 and Hornady 165 grain Spire pointed bullets. They worked magnificently and I had no disappointments. I have since killed a few with Nosler Accubonds and have opted to hang mostly with a Nosler 180 BT and find it to do well in my 300 WBY Mag.

The Caribou in the picture I did kill with Barnes "X" bullets, it took 2 shots to do the job. I didn't even know I had hit it the first time until I was skinning the neck out and found the first bullet hole the size of a pencil in and out. I pulled all the other Barnes "X" bullets I had loaded and threw them out and went back to Hornady Spire Points...

Consistent with what others report...

Dude, I am the OP!

Then why ya messin' with me! LOL!

I've never used one on elk either but I did kill a cow moose at 547 yards today with a 150 ttsx from my 300 wsm. It was quartering towards me and went in on the on side shoulder end exited just behind the ribs on the other side. Lungs weren't exploded but had big enough holes through them to bring here down.

Bb

Barnes just came out with a new TSX... I'm going to get one with spinners and go kill an elk...

In 1989 I killed a bull with NBT's, took 3 of them and upon skinning it the penetration averaged around 2", fast forward 16 years the NBT is one of my favorites..you see where i'm going with this?

On a side note, the PSE you sent is deadly, thanks!(freind in the pic helping on the pack out,he hasnt talked to me since,o'well he'll get over it:) )

Looks like they moly coated it too!

Same here Shrap.....here's a 168gr X that was used out of a 300WSM on a 317lb Saskatchewan Whitetail...(NOT AN ELK!)found in the off side ham upon skinning/quatering. SOB bounced around like a ping pong ball. I think there was some over penetration involved.....



But he's here to tell the story....

Of course, he shot it out of a puzzy 270.

I have also never shot an elk with a Barnes bullet, but I feel qualified to comment because my boy missed a deer with one this year.

Seriously, on Burleyboy's moose yesterday(he mentioned it above), the bullet worked great.

I bought some Barnes once, because they're pretty. They were too pretty to shoot.

Pretty bullets must work, because they're better than ugly bullets.

Like most other hunters I have never used one on an elk, but they have accounted for about a dozen African animals ranging from grysbok to buffalo and eland, too many whitetail to count, a mule deer, three pronghorn, numerous pigs, and an Alaska/Yukon moose. I did experience over penetration on most, if not all, of these critters, for that reason I do not believe they will kill an elk.

There, that should make it easy...

That type of "performance" would worry me.

Dead animal performance is what I look for, it's obviously not that hard even if you think the projectile is chit.

Kent

Pulled the rest of them bastids....put em back in the cute little plastic box and pawned them off one someone...

Hell of a nice buck BTW.

Seems they came out with something to remedy that issue. I think it's called a "T".

Never used a barnes on elk. Just hornadies and noslers. Always DRT

Standing by...

What is a T?

"T"TSX



As Dober used to say- you shoot a bullet long enough and it'll eventually do something that makes you shake your head, but the tip on the TSX seems to have remedied about 95% of any non-expansion issues that may have existed with the TSX.

John I suspect RC is of Italian extraction....which means you should listen to him in matters involving food. Because we are easily the "best" at it....

I know this because I have never used a Barnes bullet on an animal.

Got it. I have heard the polymer tips initiate expansion better than hollow pointed bullets.

...and Bob,

everything you say is true

I agree 100% to that.... Was pretty hard on the Barnes for a few years after that.... But have come back around to using them in a couple of my own rifles last year or so and a few others by request of the owners. Like Jordan said.... Think the tipped Barnes have remedied the problems with the tips closing up. The 70gr TSXs are shooting great outta my 22-250 AI, but haven't got to plug anything with one yet

rc I figured.....LOL!

I could tell, looking at those rabbit dishes. They looked like what my grandmothers used to prepare. I grew up on that food.

Anyone ever notice that you never see these kinda threads with Nosler Partitions or Cor-Lokts.

You don't have to fix what ain't broke.

And,Bergers on Grizz is hilarious.....Gotta ask,was little John charged by those two Grizz .

Shoemaker or 'Lil John on bullets for Bear?

Jayco

All I know is, sure as hell not Jayco.

Jayco you just love to stir a pot....

I have used X, Tsx and Ttsx and none had a problem opening. The fact that they only open so far and go on out, might make it appear they didn't open, but unless someone can show me a "closed" X or Tsx bullet, my feeling is the non expansion is BS. If the bullet opens as much as it's going to, which I do feel isn't enough for best results, and keeps trucking and goes out the other side, it might seem like it didn't open up, but I would bet it did.

Speaking of Dober haven't seen anything by him in a while. What happened with him?

I could show you one, recovered from a bull last year. It's not mine, so I can't post a photo of it right now, but maybe in a few days if you're interested. 168 grain ttsx out of a .308, range was 60 yards.

Phil, this is THE finest comment on a thread of this type that I can recall ever reading on any site. I dammed near choked to death on my morning tea upon reading it, GOOD ONE, BUD!!!!

See page 11.............

Well Kute, I'm glad there's at least one person here who appreciates a good one......glad you enjoyed it!

Hey! I did too!

Noslers swift Hornady for me

Hey, that's the Barnes 308/150 TTSX I didn't use and didn't pull out of a cow elk a few years back!

I see why those are more expensive now: They are reusable.... ...

Mmmmm....sure does make a guy think.

I'd guess since I haven't used them, I wouldn't be inclined to give them more twist,and more speed,in the hopes of not stabilizing them and keeping them point forward once they hit stuff...

This might result in them not tumbling and helping expansion (I don't think),and might make them work better,forcing a guy to use them....in which case he would know something more about how they really work....which isn't good because it disqualifies him to post on this thread.

My hunch is,with Barnes,the rules change....velocity might be important,as well as lightening up to pick up speed and over-stabilizing them (LOL, like there is such a thing)for point-forward stability in flesh and stuff;more twist aids expansion.

But I haven't used them, so am qualified to say.

More coffee...please?

Sure some pictures of ones that didn't open right. Got to wonder what they hit. I shot 14 head of game in Africa in 2009, and another 5 in 2011, and used the Ttsx, 150gr 308, in 2011. Didn't have any failures that I knew of. But then, didn't recover any in 2011..did recover one in 2009. Hit a Gemsbok in the hip, going away, went in, broke the pelvis, came out, hit the paunch and went back in. Looked like the adds, expansion wise. Was the old X bullet, in my 338/06. But, then, each bullet can not work right. Friend of mine in Colordo, used to use CoreLokts, till he hit a cow elk in the ribs with a 180 in 308, from a 300WM, and it disentigrated, and didn't penetrate. Another guy I knew in Mt. shot a moose in the neck with a Hornady RN from his 375, and it blew up on the neck bone, and didn't put the animal down. He put a 2nd shot into it in the body. So stuff happens. This year I took a kid to Africa and he killed 5 head of game, all but one a one shot kill, using the 130gr 308 bullets in my 308. The only bullet we recovered opened like the adds show..it hit a wildebeeste in the right hip, and was pulled out of the left shoulder. I haven't used the Tsx or Ttsx on Elk, but sure wouldn't have an qualms about doing so. Kind of wondering how long ago the deformed bullets were used, as changes in the metal mix being made all the time. I'd consider sending pictures of them to Barnes and alerting them of any problems so they can fix them..

Ghost just my WAG but looks like they tumbled....I bet they were started maybe too slow,were not stable,and tumbled.Nose folded over and they did did not open. Once they tumble game over.

More twist, more speed required.

looks like they were shot into a dirt bank to me..certainly a great test for all bullets..

That could be too...they look like the FMJ's I dig outta the bank at the range.

Well, one pictured by Fotis is a 150 TTSX I pulled from a cow elk.

IMO it had plenty of speed and twist.

Specifics:

308/150 TTSX/RL15/2,830 fps MV
308 Win/1-12"
Shot was 170 yards down hill. Bullet hit nothing in between.

IMO, the nose "pinched shut" on impact (as any hollow-point can do on occasion). It did indeed tumble, as I found it in the offside shoulder pointed backwards.

What looks like "dirt" in the nose is in fact elk fat.

IMO, monolithic solids fail more than most understand or are willing to admit. When they work, they can work well to extremely well. When they fail, they fail spectacularly.

Personally, I can find no reason to shoot them into game, but that's just me:

Some 30 cal bullets I've pulled from elk, left to right:

150 TTSX / 2,830/ 308 Win/ 170 yards
168 TSX / 2,880 / 30-06 / 50 yards
180 NP/ 2,980 / 300 WSM / 70 yards
180 NP/ 3,030 / 300 WSM / 230 yards
165 NAB / 2750 / 308 Win / 12 feet

The others look just like thew ones I pick up after they hit steel targets..

I'd be leery of shooting over a 130 mono in a 12 twist, slow round-slow twist and mono's..No wonder you hate them i'd have never even attempted it.

As I said clearly, it was a 150... not 130.

A 1-12 is absolutely ideal for a 150 TTSX in a 308, as my 500 yard groups testified.

I have no emotional investment in bullets... just the facts mam, just the facts.

Based on info I got via emails from Africa last month(with pics of dead critters the newer LRX seems to expand very well,penetrate deeply,and create some devastating wound channels.This was the 145 LRX at about 3120 from a 7 Rem Mag. We are talkin 30-40 head of game and consistent results.

Maybe if we ask RinB he will tell us all about it.

Brad when I say "higher velocity" I am talking 3100 fps and up to as fast as a guy can drive them....and by fast twist I mean a 9 in 30 caliber,and 8-9 in 270 and 7mm.

This stuff was brought to my attention in the 80's by Bill Steigers at Bitterroot, which are also a very tough bullet and they took all the velocity and twist you could give them.

I think the Barnes are similar. If I ever decide to use Barnes on anything(can't think of a reason right now as I have plenty of BBC's) I would not use them in a standard case, except maybe a 110 in 270 or a 120 in 280.

I would not bother loading heavier than that.

Brad, so true, I believe it comes down to the quality of copper (for producing bullets) that Barnes buys.
Over the years it has been hit and miss for them. I like consistency in bullet performance and that is something Barnes can not produce.

I do use the 375/250 TTSX though. But in that caliber/weight it does not matter as much.

Now we're getting somewhere! Looks to my untrained eye like Barnes = hype.

I like what you are saying about not bothering to shoot any but the super-lightweight mono-metals in std cartridges, Bob. I've long thought the same thing, partially based on the statements of Bill Steigers. In fact, I can't quite figure out why mono-metal bullets would be desirable when shooting std, moderate-velocity rounds, especially when the leaded variety does such a fine job. The picks of Brad's Noslers really speak to that, and so does the history of hunting for most of the last century. IMO the value of Barnes and other monos shows up when one steps up the powder charge, and the velocity. I know a lot of guys swear by them, but I'm not sure about them making a marginally small caliber acceptable for a given game animal, or that they would somehow kill better. I am sure that for most big game hunting in North America (deer), they offer no benefit over c/c.

Since I haven't ever used Barnes, I am the ultimate authority on their performance...

As I said clearly I wouldnt shoot over a 130 in a 12 twist 308.The fact is a 1-12 may stabilize the bullet just fine, but that aint what i'm getting at here. I bet the results would have been much different out of a 10 twist 30-06. You see the same deal time and time again when guys try to use 55+ grainers in slow twist 22 cals , throw in 9-1/2 and 10 twist 7mm's shooting 160+ grain barnes as well..You would think guys would start seeing a trend here, but I guess not.


I'm not emotional over them either,i'm just sayin in fast(er) carts with fast twists the performance is perfect. I dont believe barnes is ideal in many carts, and I kinda hope some of the guys reading this will take that into consideration when choosing bullets..If so we may not have to constantly have this discussion.

Gotchya. I obviously misunderstood you. And though I essentially don't agree with your hypothesis, it's much clearer in your second post... if I have to go through all the gyrations suggested to get a bullet to work, it ain't for me. Period.

A hard (expensive) bullet like the Barnes just isn't needed for the vast majority of game it's used on... and I can frankly see no reason to use one unless legally mandated (CA).

Ballistic Tips and Partitions suit me fine.

Yep, lots of good bullets to choose from. I really like BT's.

They've produced consistency for me, as I've now seen somewhere close to 100 head of big game killed with Barnes bullets without a single failure to expand that I could detect by wound channels, exits, or recovered bullets. The only deer that ran farther than it should have was due to sloppy shooting where the bullet nicked the rear lobe of one lung.

I'm not loyal to any one bullet or manufacturer, but I've had very consistent and satisfactory results from Barnes bullets, both as the shooter and as the witness.

Although some may not agree, I see some advantages even to using them in std cartridges. By stepping down in bullet weight- 130gr in .308, 120 in .280, etc, a guy can still retain all the penetration that he gets with other bullets, while upping the velocity significantly. This not only flattens out the trajectory over the first 300 yards (where 95% of game is shot), but it also increases the impact velocity, making for violent expansion and internal damage.

Other billets get the job done in std carts, too, but I don't dismiss the notion of using Barnes bullets just because I'm not using a magnum.

I'm late to this thread I realize.....however the last elk I killed was a seven by seven in Montana. He was killed with a 180 TSX out of a 300 Weatherby Magnum.

First shot likely killed him....but I wasn't about to wait and see I put a second into him for good measure.

He ran a total of perhaps 75 yards.

No you're not. I haven't used a Barnes more than you.

It isn't from an elk, but here are two 200gr TSX's from my 325 WSM shooting a moose a month ago. I can't argue with this performance.

Great pic! I like Partitions. Elk taste good, never shot one though



Mike

If the bullet is stabilized, proven with groups at any range impacting without key holing, how the hell does spinning them faster make them expand any better ?

Centrifugal force. Think of a kid spinning faster and faster on a tire swing.

Yup. I am no engineer,but jacket is rupturing along "fault lines" and tends to expand more fully...in the case of a fragile bullet,parts are flung off due to high rate of spin,coupled with the effects of high impact velocity..The tougher the bullet the more it can resist these forces due to the materials from which it is made,and its construction,ie (tough jackets or mono builds),but the same things also help the bullet to expand more fully.

We know this happens in the air with certain bullets....a pal used to load 90 gr Sierra's (IIRC) in his 264 Win Mag to watch them blow up in mid air...you could see the smoke trail....and I understand some match shooters experienced the same things with Bergers from certain high vel cartridges and fast twist....I guess that's the reason the target versions have tougher jackets? It isn't just the velocity that tears them up...it's fast twist and high rpm's as well.

The thin jacket is scored(compromised) by the rifling, creating a fault line,and the high rpms finish it off.

If we know bullets can come unglued in mid air due to high rpm's, it's logical to assume the same thing happens on impact with game and the expansion compromises jacket integrity...high rpm's add to the process; and the makers of some custom hunting bullets have very specific twist/velocity recommendations for optimum expansion/performance.

With many bullets,we can't see the effects of this on recovered bullets because there is not enough left of the bullet to tell.

In other words, we can start some hard tough expanding bullets "too slow".

As to stability,and keeping bullets point forward upon impact, we could note that we go to great pains to keep bullets from yawing and to keep them stable and point forward as they fight through the atmosphere,yet mostly never give a thought to how we do the same once they hit a tougher,and much denser medium like a game animal while the bullet is being torn apart...we sort of take it for granted but fast twist helps there, too.

The "in flight" stuff is easy....the hard part is getting the bullets to behave once they hit something.

That and seeing is believing.. I dont think luck has anything to do with me not having the same issues others are having.

rosco it's hard to wrap your head around some of this stuff



Like I said, I never used a Barnes but near as I can tell they behave a lot like a Bitterroot and with both, speed and rpm's are your friend.

Both are game changer bullets,and need a different approach from std C&C's.

A semi serious answer....I assume a lot of you are also shotgun users....

Take the Mossberg 835 Waterfowl and Winchester XSP as an example of rifle bullets...

The Winchester groups at 40 yards as the Mossberg does at 30 yard(Same modified screw in choke and steel shot)The Mossberg is specific not liking all factory ammo while the Winchester shoots 'em all and better.

Which would you buy,same goes for hunting bullets.I want a bullet that is not specific to twist and velocity that works in all my rifles.

Jayco

I'd rather start with the bullet(s) I want to shoot and arrange it so my rifles will handle them than the other way around.

But hey, talking shotguns does make a lot of sense here......

It does if a guy is foolish enough to think that Elk hunters don't hunt anything or shoot anything else.Some do and I am one of them..

So,like in shotguns,I want a hunting bullet that will work in my existing calibers I own....Only a fool(not aimed at you) would by the bullet first then the rifle to suit it.

There is only speculation that the outcome would have been different in the cases of Barnes not opening up that we have seen.

The vast majority of Elk hunters out there use factory ammo/not reloads and Barnes ammo say's nothing about twist/velocity or it to work properly and there velocities for there ammunition are anemic compared to some others.

Jayco

I think most hunters use what the salesman tell them to use in gun shops. Either that, or what they read on forums.

Sadly,there is alot of truth to that.....

Barnes Vortex factory ammunition for 30-06 with 180 grain Barnes bullet is 2700 fps....Same as most other factory loads with "No" mention of twist or velocity to the buyer,as seen below.

BARNES� VOR-TX� Ammunition � precision loaded with the deadliest bullets on the planet. The leader in bullet innovation offers hunters the ultimate in accuracy, terminal performance and handloaded precision in a factory loaded round. The whirling, destructive power� of Barnes� all-copper bullet�s PERformance leaves lead-core bullet DEformance in the dust.

Offering double-diameter expansion, maximum weight retention and excellent accuracy, the TSX�, Tipped TSX� and TSX FN� provide maximum tissue and bone destruction, pass-through penetration and devastating energy transfer. Multiple grooves in the bullet�s shank reduce pressure and improve accuracy. Bullets open instantly on contact � no other bullet expands as quickly. Nose peels back into four sharp-edged copper petals destroying tissue, bone and vital organs for a quick, humane kill.

Jayco

WRONGO!

Many who have a clue pick the bullet they want to shoot and build a gun around it!

The projectile for the 408 CheyTac was designed FIRST, then they built a rifle around it.

Awesome, Jayco. Just awesome.

Let's stick to the facts....All Barnes data with the .308 Win is in a 1/12 twist and Brads load is right there in velocity to Barnes preferred load for accuracy 2850 ish.

So why again did it not expand?

Jayco

How long was the shot? Maybe it lost too much velocity?

Or maybe the bullet just didn't do what it was supposed to. Bullets fail for so many reasons. Sometimes we can account for them, and sometimes the unexpected happens, and the cause is never defined. Barnes aren't immune to the odd failure, even if everything was within parameters.

Did that bullet kill the cow or was there a rodeo that eventually led to recovery.

I've had bullets do stuff they weren't supposed to, but the animal died normally, so really they did do what they were supposed to.

I have an 06 that from '91 has killed 15 to 20 elk, all with the 165 old X or TSX, all with one bullet, no rodeos, the three TSX were DRTs. It also shoots the hndy interlock same poi, which has killed deer.

My 338 likes the hndy 200 interlock and has killed up to four elk in one season alone.

My 270 I had, liked the 150 NPT and killed a couple elk, I even killed a coues deer the same year my brother killed an elk because there were only two days between the hunts and I didn't want to resight to my 130 deer load.

My 7X57 kllled elk with a 175 corelock.

My 308 with a 150 GMX DRTed an elk.

My 7mm08 just DRTed a cow at 220yds with a 120 NBT saturday morning.

My guns have killed a bunch of elk by family and friends I take out. Which one goes depends on which one the shooter likes in practice... they all kill, no animal was more killed.

Kent

I wanted to post my experience with Barnes bullets on elk, but the OP's rule said I can't, so here's a couple of pics of some Barns bullets that were recovered from some of my African animals.



The left bullet is a 300 gr TSX from my .375 RUM that was recovered from a Cape Buffalo. The muzzle velocity was 2830 fps and I shot the buff broadside in his right shoulder at about 50 yds. He ran less than 100 yds and was dead when we got to him. The skinners found the bullet in the bull's left shoulder.

The other two bullets are 270 gr TSX's from my .375 RUM that were recovered from a Cape Kudu. The muzzle velocity was 3040 fps and the Kudu was shot at 165 yds. At the first shot, the bull was standing quartering to us, and the (center pictured) bullet entered the front of his left shoulder and was found just under the skin of his right hip. The first shot didn't drop him, and since the sun was setting, my PH urged me to shoot him again which was the bullet on the right in the picture and it went through both shoulders and stopped under the skin on the far side of the Kudu.



These two bullets are 168 gr TTSX bullets shot at 3250 fps from my .300 Weatherby. The center bullet went full length, shoulder to rump, through a Warthog, and the bullet on the right went through both shoulders and was found just under the skin of a White Blesbok. The recovered bullet weights are also stated on the pic.

The other Barnes TSX or TTSX bullets that I shot into 19 other African animals and 3 North American animals (NOT ELK) were either not recovered or passed completely through the animals, however none of those animals ran more than 30 yds from where they were shot.

I am so excited that finally a manufacturer has begun making bullets that kill things! Whew! It was rough before John Nosler started selling Partitions. When people could finally kill the things they shot some of the time, it was a real game changer. Now, with Barnes, people are finally killing most of the animals they shoot! Wow. Just wow.

Shoot a Partition.

Yes they do....but what do they know? They are fools...

They aren't even smart enough to figure that all bullets are the same....doesn't matter what you use.


Why even ask?

Buffy: Nice!

Gee.....look what happens when you drive them fast...who'd a thunk it?


But why the hell would anyone wanna build a rifle around something that performs like THAT?

MUCH better to jump around from one bullet to another....guessing.

Do mushrooms get any better ?

[quote=Anaconda]



Do mushrooms get any better ?

What bullets and Caliber? Thanks!

Drinks after work Bob. Where can I get some of those Partitions,was it...

Lets see:

What rate of twist will stabilize Triple-Shock X Bullets?
TSX bullets are designed for and tested in standard-twist barrels. If you�re using a slower twist, we recommend choosing a shorter (lighter) bullet for your rifle. (See General Reloading section for a list of our test barrel twists.)

Hey Bob.....Remember back in the old days when all the successful hunters dug through there dead animals looking for the bullet to show off as the ultimate killer and performer?

I don't either......

Jayco

Looks just like the TMZ's I've recovered.

jayco you just sorta bumped into bullets peeling animals



Yes the beauty of Partitions is that they do pretty well in any damned cartridge and caliber you shoot them in,don't require any special twists and are very effective terminally. They are a "go to" bullet when in doubt. I prefer them over an AB myself.

Seems when you jump up a notch to tougher construction is when things get a bit complicated...oh they work well enough most of the time but from standard twists and velocities...but I still think monos will strut their stuff bette at the higher end of velocity and twist.

Isn't the Campfire amazing? A tongue-in-cheek thread that starts out by specifically saying anybody who's shot an elk with a Barnes bullet is disqualified from posting, somehow transforms itself in 10 days into another "tastes great/less filling" bullet thread, complete with the same sorts of photos and stories we've been seeing and reading for years now.

Am so glad to relearn all this interesting stuff.

So Bob,at what animal will the Mono strut there stuff enough for a guy to consider them rather than the Partition?

For rookie barnes users,listening to internet chatter and reading actual Barnes data and what they recommend,is quite different.

Take the .308 Win as Brad used to get bad results......

Barnes data only says do not use 200 grain bullets in a 1:12 twist(Standard twist for it)..Nothing about the 150 grain and twist....

Load data has two loads/one 100 fps faster than the starred for accuracy load at 2850 fps or so....So would you recommend the faster load over the accurate load to new users to possibly insure the bullet opening?

Okay,one has to admit that Barnes bullets that are recovered are pretty little things and Bergers and some others are just flat out ugly,even the Swift A-Frame looks pregnant after impact and who would want to own up to that.

The main thing I don't see on the net is Partition failures/Core-Lokt etc etc just chatter about Barnes and Bergers over and over again and again.....Why is that?

Jayco

This post was prescient, given what follows......

The internet is 95% entertainment... can't think of much I do different than what guys killing animals in the 50s and 60s taught me and what evolved from my own experiences.

It's the serious egos that are entertaining.

Poor newbie's that get good basic info and then are steamrolled by 'experts'.

Kent

Just how much white-lightning would a guy have to drink to think like Jayco?

Tanner

So true...Entertaining/yes...Serious/No

Now back to pretty bullets..I'll match the Barnes and raise you a Core-Lokt(Pictured on right showing up the two Noslers at left)

I am going to build me a rifle based on the Remington Core-Lokt.



Jayco

I doubt that. Not that you would, but that you will.

Let me check my twist and velocities and I'll get back to you on that!!!!!!


Jayco

Back years ago, I got over 300 250 gr 35 caliber Bitterroots from a guy up in Sitka ,Alaska....but had no rifle to shoot them in

This was in the days when good 35 caliber bullets were nowhere near as common as they are today so sometimes necessity is the mother of invention....and good 375 caliber bullets were as hard to come by....we were pretty deprived back then

I had a magnum pre 64 action and a Brown Precision stock and sent them to Butch Searcy (he was in Ne Mexico then). He cam up with a 12 twist 35 caliber Krieger barrel,and chambered it for the 8 Rem Mag cartridge but necked to 35 caliber.

When it was done it shot those 250 gr Bitterroots like a champ at over 3000 fps.

It was a clascic example of literally building a rifle around a bullet, but the thing was it shot Speers and Hornady's and everything you fed it.

But it was "built" around those Bitterroots and was far better for the chore than a standard 14-16 twist that common "wisdom" said I shoulda used for 35 calibers back then.

I had a .358 Shooting Times Alaskan for a while with a 1-12 twist, a barrel rebored by Classic Barrel and Gunworks. It shot every bullet I tried, including the 280-grain Swift A-Frame and whatever the heaviest Woodleigh weighs. But damn, there was no .35 caliber TSX back then, so it wouldn't kill anything.

Bob,ain't we talking Wild Cat here with your 8MM necked to 35 caliber?

Wasn't alot of that going around in these parts back when.The average Joe bought a Winchester/Remington or Savage/Stevens on a budget and went hunting using factory ammunition....Factory ammunition still reigns for the average shooter...

And Barnes load data is based on the normal twist of the said cartridge aka 1-12/.308 and 1-10/30-06 and so on with a warning above not to shoot certain weights for stabilization reasons.

So,if a guy buys Barnes and it meets there criteria in weight and twist,should it not work properly in said caliber leaving a shooter not having to worry about chit he reads on forums,just sticking with Barnes data and recommendations.

But I am still wondering at what animal size does one need to think Mono rather than Nosler?

Jayco

50 cal 460 gr of pure lead is what i'm using.

I feel like you casted that from a thimble... Is this what you look like when you're reloading?

http://danielriccio.com/thimble-pics/Pages/01_Ricciothimbles.html

Your link isn't working.

I take no credit for the bullet. It's a No Excuse bullet. I buy them. They make elk DRT from what i've seen reports on. I haven't tried one on game yet, but plan to.

I fixed it.

I have to wonder how you knew about that web site?

You into thimbles?

Haha, for some reason that bullet reminded me of 1, so I googled "thimbles" and that was the first picture to pop up.

Hopefully, next year I can say I killed an elk with a thimble.

How would that compare to a Barnes though?

It can beat up a Barnes. Those copper dudes have no balls.

Does it require high velocity and an abnormally fast twist?

You'll have to ask Jayco on that.

I think this is a pretty insightful observation, Jayco. And it highlights a point I've been trying to make on these bullet threads. Marketing has convinced us that the bullet is the trophy, or at least part of it. When I was younger, the photos from hunts were of hunters and animals. Found bullets were curiosities, and trinkets to be saved as good luck charms for some. Now folks post pics of bullets as trophies, and many think what the bullet looks like determines whether it was effective. Propaganda.

Too bad I can't get these to stabilize in my '06. They look like a bigger hammer.

JB that thing is a BIG GUN! But yes a 12 twist 35 seems to shoot everything well.


Jayco yes it was a wildcat....I could have gone 358 Norma, but had the magnum action so figured I might as well fill 'er up and use the full length case.

It was based on the 8 mag but I formed brass out of 375 H&H stuff.

That's what I did too, and after trying a bunch of different bullets and loads, decided it was pretty much a .375 H&H--but without without the advantage of almost universally available factory ammo and brass. So it went down the road.

Plenty of old timers were interested in bullet performance, otherwise you wouldn't have the bullets of today.

You just may not have heard about it, pre-internet.

Yes they are pretty close...I rebarreled mine to 375H&H

Because Partitions and CL's are boring Although I have seen pictures of failures of both bullets. No bullet is immune to failing now and again- not Barnes, Bergers, CL's, or even Noslers.

There is always reassurance in a dead animal;but if a guy does not track what a bullet did,and try to glean something from what it looks like on recovery,(which is an indication of its capabilities,not a curio to hang around your neck....)he won't gain any insight into what it will do for him the next time....or the next....or the time after that.

(Here's a clue....if you depend on marketing hype to choose your bullet for BG hunting, you are a dope....you should cock a skeptical eyebrow at every claim made by a bullet manufacturer until it's proven in the field.)

Not all hunters of 50-75 years ago drooled in front of a camera,indifferent to what bullets did....if they had you would not have the bullets you have today.The notion is laughable.

It isn't marketing to try to understand bullet behavior in animals....it's a natural curiosity that all hunter/riflemen of much experience display, because they know the bullet is the most important thing in the whole killing equation.Not the rifle(just a launch platform),or the fluted tube, or the color of the paint job,etc...

So that after awhile he can gain confidence in it,and pretty much "knows" the results even before he reaches the carcass.

And if he does enough of this stuff with a wide range of bullets he will eventually figure out that all bullets are NOT the same,and he can make an intelligent choice about what to use.

Jordan is right. ..Partitions are boring....the BC's are old hat,and they are too terminally reliable...results are annoyingly consistent...to some this is a "bad" thing LOL! These folks flit like butterflies from one bullet to another, looking for something "better" but are unlikely to find it for killing BG animals from the muzzle out to 500-600 yards.

Seems to me the Barnes are a notch "up" in toughness and not the same bullet that came out 20 years ago as they have been in a process of evolution.Seems they thrive at impact velocities that will turn other bullets to rubble...this is tough for some to grasp and I'm not sure why.

Seems to me,the internet has made hunting way to complicated.The differences in opinions can never be satisfied or it too would be boring to some.

Personally,I don't care what a bullet looks like as long as it did its job,killing the game..I don't care if it explodes or penetrates the animal and three tree's behind it.

Some want to experiment and others are content with what they have seen, based on several examples over a lot of years.I sure don't see how Barnes are a notch up over a Nosler...I have tested/used both on game.I have seen the Barnes blow all its petals off leaving only the shank and I also have seen the nosler loose it all, except the shank..Neither disintegrated as some cup and cores have.

A step up,I don't think so.....

Jayco

Love to see one of those Barnes with all the petals blown off. What was the fps?

You ask and shall receive..Click the link to right here.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...27731/all/270_Grain_TSX_still_needs_work

Jayco

Exactly.

Curiosity has extended to all sorts of things prior to the internet (gasp!).

In the 60's/early 70's I had my grandpa under strict orders to save all projectiles he pulled out of critters in the fall at his butcher house. I had a nice tin full of em!

The study of spent projectiles has always been a fascination to me.

Jayco, I think that's what the partition was designed to do. And your post above implies that you personally have shot Barnes bullets into game and seen the petals "blow off" but that's really not the case, is it?

To be clear, I'm not a big fan of Barnes bullets myself, just interested in the facts.

That Barnes was a big load. Not a big deal though. The front of the Partition is designed to come off too if push hard enough.

I'll stay with big hunks of lead. Easier to chew than copper.

Well Smoke,yes I have shot an Elk with the Barnes bullet....The exit was close to the same size as the entry and the cavity had copper shrapnel in it and i also said..tested/used..More testing than use as I have no use for Barnes or the Fail Safe,both used once on Elk and Deer.

Tested/Used means just that.

Jayco

The exit was close to the same size as the entry, on a sample of one?

You call that "testing?"

Wow, look out, Mule Deer.

What a [bleep] jerk.....

Have you used either the Nosler or Barnes on Elk?

Jayco

Jayco, when will you publish your "results??"

Can I get an autographed copy? Are you gonna pose next to the exit hole that's "close to the same size" as the entrance hole?

It's gonna be awesome!!!

You did run this by CHuck Hawks, didn't you?

Since your to dense to look for yourself,I'll show you others right off the fire......Now answer.....Have you ever used Noslers or Barnes on Elk?





Jayco

Almost forgot, is your new book gonna be complete with real pictures of your "test bullets" recovered by yourself, from the internet? Like your posts here?

Have you run this by Ray?

Have you ever shot an Elk with either bullet?

Tell us your take on both on Elk.

Owe wait....You haven't....

Grow up.Leave it to you to turn this into a high school pissing contest.....

Jayco

All the chatter about Barnes bullets that lost one or more petals has always been interesting to me--and to Randy Brooks, who was puzzled when people bitched about it, because the bullets killed game as well or better than those retaining all their petals.

The reason, of course, is the supposed need for 100% weight retention, the holy mantra of the people who believe 100% means deader animals. This isn't true, and in fact several monolithic bullets have been designed to lose their petals. Why? So they'll do more interior damage, which is what kills game. Two I can think of off-hand are the GS Custom and the relatively new Cutting Edge Raptor. And they both work very well.

But they can't, according to the 100% theory. Which is also why Nosler Partitions have been such a miserable failure for the past 65 years.

I totally agree as I said earlier.I really don't care what the bullet looks like that killed my food for the year as long as it is a quick clean kill.

The reason I don't care for Barnes is when I used them they were a copper fouling bullet,really bad...I know they have changed but I just much prefer the Nosler..Less tweeking...

As Rick Jamison tested the Nosler and Barnes in the 450 Marlin,they both lost petals but the Nosler penetrated 8 more inches than the 300 grain Barnes although,18" in his test media is pretty good but 26" was even better.

Owe well it is the net.

Jayco

Jayco, now I'm really confused, as you've introduced another "variable" into your test methodology.

Why are you asking about Noslers? Are Noslers easier to recover from the internet, hence more amenable to your rigorous "testing" procedures?

I thought this thread was about Barnes Bullets?

Best place I've found for recovering bullets. Looks like you're onto it too though.

You're not allowed to post in this thread!!

Well,I lost my mind........I will have to pass on this for a while as earlier I caught a burglar stealing and smashing all my mirrors on all of my rigs right in front of the house......He can out run me but he was in his 20's.....

My Ford F-150-Both mirrors.



My Dodge van-Both mirrors.





My Dodge Dakota-Both mirrors....



Now I have to see if an Android can add these pictures to an e-mail to insurance.

Jayco

Jayco, aren't you the same guy who deplores name-calling? I'm astonished that a man of your caliber and erudition would resort to name-calling, how do you explain this?





And another thing, I find it ironic that the biggest pot-stirrer on the forum here gets his panties in a wad when someone else takes a page right out of his personal playbook and stirs the pot, right back at him. What's up with that?

As far as Barnes bullets on elk, no, I haven't personally pulled the trigger with any so unlike you, I am responding as the OP requested. Having said that, it appears that I have about twice the practical experience with them as you do with your sample of one. I loaded 168 TTSX's for my son's .308, which he used to kill an elk a few years back, with me right there watching. High shoulder shot, DRT, Hammer-of-Thor, and so on and so forth.

Then last year a good friend was burglarized and lost his rifles. I sold him a different .308 for his elk hunt, and gave him the 168 TTSXs I had loaded for it, which he used to kill a 340-ish bull. He shot it through the heart at 60 yards, recovered the bullet, and showed it to me. It didn't open at all, but it did kill the elk.