What would you do in this situation - continue to bring a good friend along on a hunt or finally suggest it was time for him to take up something less strenuous like bird hunting?

My hunting buddy, Dave, has been hunting with me since 1999. He is diabetic, which has caused numerous complications and problems over the years. The first few years he refused to discuss his condition, insisting he could control it. That left me to research on my own what the problem symptoms were and what to do about them, something I'm still not real comfortable doing.

Unfortunately, Dave has not been very successful at controlling the diabetes. He is a great guy in general but for years refused to take enough water or food, which meant he was eating and drinking mine by day's end. I finally put my foot down a few years ago so now his standard load is 2 liters of water and more food, same as I carry.

The big problem is I just don't know if he is capable of the physical stress anymore. Even when at home he has been hospitalized a couple times because when he gets sick and starts vomiting his body chemistry gets all messed up with potentially fatal results. Here is his record since 2004:

2004 = Got very sick on 2nd day of season. Wanted me to drive him home (Craig to Denver). That meant going through multiple mountain passes and monster snowstorms in the high country. That seemed like a good way make things worse and the passes could be closed anyway. I offered to take him to the hospital in Craig instead but he refused. Day 3 (Monday) we met his wife in Wyoming and I returned to camp alone.

2005 = No elk but Dave got a doe and used our cart to pull it about a mile back to the trailer. Along the way he puked a couple times. Later during the drive from Meeker back to the trailer at Buford Dave didn't seem himself. At best he was just tired and sleepy, a normal state of affairs. (Put him in a car and start driving and he is usually out in minutes.) During the drive I kept asking if he was OK and he insisted he was just tired. We briefly discussed having leftovers for supper and the first indication I had that something more than normal was wrong was when were back at the trailer ready to eat and he asked me if I had just made all the food. The next morning he confessed he had been hallucinating and that when he stepped inside the trailer he thought he was in a cathedral.

2006 = A one day hunt at Three Forks RFW ranch. We both got our cows and the ranch guides helped pack them out. The next morning as we dressed to go deer hunting I got word my wife was in the hospital. We packed up and went home.

2007 = Dave got sick pulling a doe out 300 yards to the truck using our cart.

2008 = Dave was a new father and stayed home.

2009 = Dave was sick and stayed home.

2010 = Dave didn't hunt.

2011 = Dave didn't hunt.

2012 = An easy opening day but Dave got worn out and sprained his ankle badly as we walked back through the sage to the truck. It was so bad his wife had to come get him. Doc said a break would have been better.

2013 = Day one was an easy day as we hunted the migration routes in the sage early and spent most of the rest of the day driving to scout different areas. The second morning Dave got very sick. We left him at the truck while we hiked a mile into Oak Ridge SWA. I called him on the FRS radio ad it was clear we had to turn back and get him some help. Daughter #2 and SIL cut their planned 2-day hunt short to take Dave back to Denver and home.

Overall, not a good record. In seven planned hunts he got sick five times, going home twice and staying home once. Another time, after an easy day of walking, he got badly injured because he was too tired to pick his feet up.

Wife and I will be meeting Dave and his family later this afternoon. My son-in-law and I have already put in for Snake River Ranch and if that fails we will to try for leftover cow tags for Unit 12. I've decided to give Dave another chance but if he gets sick this year I think that will have to be the end of our elk hunting together.

Tough situation, I hope things work out for you!

I feel for you buddy. The way we have done it is if you can't pull your own weight, then you stay at camp or don't come. Good elk hunting partners are pretty hard to come by. Because of this, I gave up on hunting with my best friends and hunt with my ex boss of all people. You need to be able to depend on them and they should also be able to depend on you. Sorry to hear of your friends health issues putting you in this position, but it would probably be best for both of you if he just stayed home. If he is relentless about it, you may wake up one morning and find him dead in his sleeping bag. If you are alright with that, let him keep coming. Hope you get it figured out and find the best way to approach him about it. Good luck!!

It's time to get him into fishing and keep it close to the road. It's less strenuous and it's still very much outdoors. Some people just don't have the physical ability to hunt and shouldn't be trying to do it.

Coyote,

I think youve done everything possible and then some, no one would fault you for saying enoughs enough. Dave has to man up and admit his limitations, his condition is eventually going to cause a very serious life and death situation. Good luck with what ever you decide.

Pretty sure you know the answer..

I'd sure cut him out, but explain why,showing him the record you posted. This getting out and hunting means you need to be with some one you can count on.

Bad things can happen to all of us and happen fast as I found out last year. I would have been in deep do-do if I hadn't had a great hunting partner that finally got me into Craig Hospital. Usually I am the one that gets to help others, but the role was switched for the first time.

It isn't all about you taking care of your buddy, but him being able to care care of you in an emergency.

My one hunting partner I have known and hunted with for over 35 years and he is a neighbor. The other 20 years or so. We make an exception for another neighbor who we both have known for 35+ years or more. He had a stroke a few years and is finally getting back into hunting. We all know we need to watch out and take care of him. None of us are spring chickens any more, which makes it all the more important. However, this guy tries and he tries hard, so it is worth the sacrifice on our part.

Interject some reality into it. At you age,count about how many elk hunts you might have left in you and you will find it probably isn't as many as you think. Do you want 25%+ of them cut short or aborted. Add to it that you he the unique ability to be able to hunt with your daughters which is tremendous thing. If the guy took care of himself that is a different story, but it sounds like he won't and you just enable him.

When I lived in Albuquerque, I hunted with a guy who had hyperglasemia (sp. His blood sugar would get low and he would pass out. I had to go look for him and find him. I finally started to carry two small bottles of orange juice for him with me and stayed closer to him. It was a real PITA. I couldn't convince myself to find anew hunting partner, but lucked out when I moved to Colorado and solved the problem.

I feel badly for both you and your friend. I have had similar situations and I hate to "cut someone loose" but at times you have to tactfully do it-easier said than done. If your hunting time means a lot to you (and it sounds like it does) you may end up making trips by yourself. I have started doing a lot more of that-hard when I end up driving 1600+ miles to a hunt-but having health or personal reasons always come up with your partners gets old.

My last trip with a former partner he informed us on day three of a ten day trip that he needed to leave the next day (his truck) Upon return home I started planning things differently.

Type 1 or type 2 diabetes?

With proper medication and compliance (it doesn't matter what you're on, it only works when you take it as directed) he shouldn't be experiencing ANY of these symptoms. If he's not managing his disease he's putting you both at risk.

Frame it to him that way. Dave, I'm really worried about you. On the last seven hunts you got sick five times. (He'll get defensive immediately but if you back down you WILL be transporting his body back to town.). If something bad happens I can't take care of you, and things seem to be getting worse. Unless you can get your diabetes under control (is he overweight?) I can't take the risk of another crash. This is about you and your health, not hunting. You have a wife and kids to take care of. That's more important than any hunting trip.

If you do it right you'll lose him as a friend for a while but he might get the clue and take responsibility for his diabetes. If you do it wrong you'll lose him as a friend forever. Either way you won't be carrying his body off the hill.

His health is his concern, not yours. He's acting very selfishly by making his health your responsibility. Don't let him do it.


P

Gosh, Coyote Hunter, I would have to echo bsa1917hunter. You have done about all you can do to accommodate the guy, but he remains in a state of denial of his real condition. He really is selfishly putting a real load and liability on you and your family. Once or twice a fella can have problems - like the flu or an injury - but this is way different, and he is being unrealistic in putting himself out there beyond medical help when he knows his condition.

Had he been in our camp last fall, we might have taken him out wrapped in a shroud. We were snowbound, with no outside communication, and it took a lot of shoveling to get free (days). We would have been unable to help that guy in our camp, and worse, we really needed everyone being able to pull some weight (just the 2 of us, though). Getting him out to help would have been completely beyond our capability until we got free ourselves. Taking care of a person in a medical crisis during all that would have prolonged being able to get out. You could be there yourself at some time.

It is time for a private heart-to heart with the guy. He needs to know that his presence is having a really significant effect on the rest of you, and that you really don't want him to die in camp. Unless you and he are OK with him coming out dead, and all the ramifications that means for you personally, he needs to quit trying this. The fishing suggestion seems best but not in really remote places. It is nice that he has confidence that you will and can bail him out, but really it is a big burden shifted to you, and he is making it impossible for you to successfully do that if he won't share information on his condition, and won't take responsibility for himself. I wonder if he even talks to his Doc about what he will be doing to see if he needs to do something different to manage it while out there (extra insulin, special diet, etc.). Probably not since he won't want to be told he should not go.

Best of luck. It won't be an easy conversation, but if he does die out there, you will be the one living with the what-ifs. It is obviously tough for him to accept that he no longer belongs out there. Having to admit to yourself you are no longer invincible and indestructible is pretty difficult, I unfortunately know this myself.

As long as you are willing to accommodate him he is willing to let you.

What BSA and Jaguar said.. Friends ran into the exact same problem with one of their party about eight years ago.. He spent all of elk season in the local hospital.. With the others running into check on him daily rather than hunting.. Next year he wanted to make the trip, but was told kindly, that it was unfair to the group to have to accept the responsibility for his well being..

This ^^^^ Sounds like you have gone above and beyond as a friend. Your friend needs to man up and face up to reality. I spent 15 years as an EMT. Brittle diabetics can crash VERY quickly. If he has a "diabetic emergency" several miles back in, you and the SAR team will be in for a very depressing "recovery" operation.

Tough situation, you know what to do in his and your best interests.

Go fishing instead and carry all the supplies your doctor recommends if your friend won't. Learn how to use a syringe in an emergency situation.

A true friend can take it between the eyes. If he is in a continual state of denial, there is no words you can say other than, you telling him he is being very childish about something that can put both of you in danger on the mountain.

A true friend will not hold it against you. A family may hold it against you if something happened to him on the hunt.... something to consider....

Don't get me wrong, I am very sympathetic, but a line has to be drawn in the sand somewhere...

COYOTE HUNTER, he is very lucky to have a friend like you. He probably needs help understanding the strain he is putting on you by placing both of you in this position. You must recognize the difference between being a friend and an enabler. Best of luck to you both.

mike r

Just me on this if you can swing it. Buy a close: brush getter for him and ask that he whatches the back door as in close to camp. Bet you he tags out before you if you pick a good camp?

I would not be taking him this year mate. Dangerous to all of you. Framing this well is the key as BSA suggests. Pharmseller's point needs to be made, possibly in front of his wife.

Good luck it's not going to be easy.

Mog

We had a similar situation on a hunt up in Colorado, our buddy ended up getting helo'd out and spent a few days in a diabetic coma, we all learned a valuable lesson the hard way.

Wondermutt has a good point. Your buddy might not mind dying on the mountain, (I can think of worse ways to go) but it won't any fun for the recovery folks and his family may not think too kindly of that.
We don't have those problems in my hunting camp yet but, except for the "once every few years" young guys I'm the youngest regular in camp at 52. Not looking forward to that discussion when it comes but won't dodge it either.

Well you aren't immortal, maybe soon as you age or get sick they will leave your butt at home too. I would keep hunting with him.recruit more help

All -

Thank you for the comments and advice. As it turns out, the problem may have resolved itself for this year. My wife and I stopped by Dave's yesterday afternoon to see him and his family. Dave brought the hunting subject up, indicating finances would probably keep him from hunting elk this year. I was both relieved and disappointed. We talked about antelope hunting in Wyoming instead. He also decided to start putting in for Colorado antelope points next year - something I've been suggesting for years. (He was surprised to see I had 4 points for antelope and will have 5 after the draw.)

Hunting antelope together in Wyoming would solve several problems for me. The first is I would get to hunt with Dave again, something I've enjoyed a lot over the years - plus I would be able to do it in an way where if he gets sick getting him back to good medical care wouldn't be difficult. Importantly, it would give both of us a chance to assess his physical condition before deciding what to do about elk hunting next year.

Hunting with Dave the first weekend of Wyoming's antelope season would also relieve some pressure on me as it would give me a chance to fill a doe tag or two in advance of hunting with family members the following week. I could then focus on helping family members fill their tags. Besides a tag or two for myself, Daughter #1, her then-to-be husband and Daughter #2's husband will all have a tag or two. Although I want antelope in the freezer, helping family members get theirs is much more important.

I hunt with 2 terrific guys who have had health challenges both over weight one diabetic and one with liver problems. We often have a couple of other guys who are younger or in better shape along who do more scouting and are great about helping out. One had to skip the elk hunt this past season and had surgery this month to remove a gall bladder.

We all bought rino gps Radios to find someone if necessary. We hunt near you around Meeker and Craig. We deliberately hunt areas that you cant drive in to get away from the herd but there are always lower less strenuous areas to hunt and sometimes they are as productive. I trust my guys to know their limitations and I believe they are just ok at that so I do keep an eye out and try to help manage risk when I can. Elk hunting isn't sitting in a whitetail stand and we pack animals out on our backs so there is always a physical limit and a time you cant do it any longer I trust each guy to make his own decision. The tough part is that elk hunting is always the highlight of my year and I'm sure it is the same for the others.

I'm the oldest in our group at 54 so I know that my elk hunting days have a shelf life - I'm hoping for 16 more hunts to make it to 70. But when I reach the point that my good buddies are sacraficing their hunts it will be time to hang it up.

I dont' think any of us can make the decision for you.

What I will say is that I've taken a wheel chair bound buddy up a hill on my back, more than once, to my best stand and then pushed him up the ladder so he could get in a couple of good hunts.

More or less totally wasted my time in a way as I had to be by close in case seomthing happened.

And there was no way he could ever help me. Except for cell phone.

But we were no way hunting elk etc....

I've never regretted a day of that, especially since has now totally lost both legs and some buttocks... and more or less won't be able to do much of anything any more.

I think with your buddy though, its partially a question of what if he craters. He can go diabetic coma really quickly, and in typical elk type areas he may well die. Even if you have a sat phone and call a medevac in. Unless you are EMT plus level and have gear with you. And that may not even save him.

I think I'd work really hard to find a draw or pay place where you could "road" hunt something, does, cows etc... on alfalfa patches etc.. could drive him up and leave him sitting to watch... could drive back to his game.

And I think I'd try to make sure that wasn't intefering with hte more rugged seasons if that makes sense.

Personally I'd never want to limit a group, but I don't typically hunt groups, I like it by myself or with my wife.
But still today I'd try to go out of my way for anyone with issues that makes their lives harder.

Probably explains why I"m EMS/Fire volunteer too. Just a big dummy that doesn't much care for myself, but mostly for others.

Good luck, this is sucky situation all around and from many angles.

Heck it might be an excuse to book a whitetail or hog type hunt somewhere else in the winter, like TX, so you could get a bit warmer weather for a few days, live in a house/building and just generally enjoy once a year! Time off is precious though. But friends don't live forever either.

When we were in high school back in the '60's, older brother had his pilot's license and worked at a local airport during the summer. Every year he would have to fly to Canada or Northern Minnesota and bring back the body of someone who had died on a fishing trip.

I'm 20+ years older than Dave and much as I like to hunt with him, we agreed last year when he was leaving to go home that sending him home horizontally was something we both wanted to avoid. My right hip has slowed me down a lot the last few years and there is no way I could haul him back to the road if he went down hard. Attempting to do so would be a good way to lay me out permanently as well. If Dave's health is as fragile as it seems, I'm not sure he can even handle antelope hunting unless we get one close to the road.

As for myself, my elk hunting days are coming to an end unless I start hunting with pack animals and/or guides. While I've been very successful, they get packed out on my back and it gets harder every year. That is one reason I hunt cows more than bulls - they are smaller and easier to get out. Dave has a hard time hunting, never mind packing. I think a pack job would probably send him into a medical crisis fairly quickly.

If we live long enough, we all reach a time when we have to admit we can't do what we did when we were younger. Hard as it is, I think Dave has come to that point and at best will have to make adjustments. This year will be a fairly difficult elk hunt. Next year we will be back in Unit 12 for 3rd Rifle, hunting the same area I've taken cows in both the 2011 and 2013 seasons. If the elk migration cooperates, Dave will be able to hunt within half a mile of the truck and have opportunities at either bulls or cows. That, of course, assumes his health (or mine!) doesn't deteriorate further.

You could end up like a guy who died of a heart attack in OR some years ago. He and a friend had gone down in some hell hole canyon where they shot a big bull elk. While they were dressing it, he dropped dead. It took rescuers 3 days just to pack his body out of there. I don't know how they planned to get the elk out.

CH,
I have several buddies that no longer hunt as a result of age and or health issues.
We do enjoy shooting and are together more now than when they were hunting.
At our local club we have monthly matches for Varmint For Score, Muzzleloader, Rifles Of the West, USPSA, Rimfire Combat, High Power etc. Matches are open to the public!
When I retire from hunting I won't be retired from shooting. I see myself shooting smaller cartridges more often and not getting beat by my retired buddies as much.
Just another option for you to ponder. Send a PM for more info if needed.
You're very thoughtful of your friend, Well done Sir!

I feel for your situation... cause I hunt with a diabetic who needs to pay special attention to his diet and signs that he is in danger. He knows his limits as well as ours. He is honest and straightforward with his condition. Every person in our camp knows and is given specific instructions should an event occur. He also knows that if he does not follow the rules set forth by his doctor and advisers, he ain't coming along.

So... I guess I consider myself lucky as if something were to happen and he were to have something happen to him, it would be just his time and more than likely gods will.

I will carry him in my pack if I could and I am not going to leave him at home because of his condition. He taught me how to hunt elk and I have been hunting with him for over 25 years. So the least I can do is pay him back by making his life easier at elk camp. By the same token, he makes our life easier at elk camp by being honest with us and doing the right thing to keep himself healthy in the woods.....

Maybe just ask him if he wants to just hang out in camp. I know lots of people that want to go elk hunting just for the good times in camp.

Sounds like it resolved itself. But, the way I see it, you can have one of two hard conversations:

Tell him this isn't working anymore for all the reasons you know.

Tell his family he died on a hunting trip.

Make plans for having the easier of those two conversations. I know which one I'd choose.

Good luck.

Can't think of a better place to tell my family I died really... but I digress.

There are easeier ways to hunt and continue to hunt, dang near out of vehicle or in "stands" where you can still almost or actually drive up to what you might kill....

That would be best of all worlds IMHO.

CH
You have a very difficult challenge. I had a similar one around 10 years ago and had to ask my friend of 30 years to stop going with me. It was hard but a decision I have never regretted. I hunt in area 12 and I know of three people that have died up their in the past three years. This year a son had to carry his father out across his saddle. Those actions are much harder than having a thoughtful conversation with a friend. We all wish you the best.

Wow, that is tough. I would never want to put one of my sons, or friends, through that kind of ordeal.

Don't know your $$ situation or vacation time but maybe you could explore a ranch based deer hunt that would be less strenuous for him and be closer to emergency medical help. My group is getting a bit older and several have had heart attacks are cancer survivors etc and I have been trying to get them to start going on plantation deer/ hog hunts in the south where they don't have to set up stands climb hills, drag deer etc. Sure it's not the most challenging hunting but it is a trip with friends and most of us have killed plenty of deer anyway.

My $$ situation is OK, his is definitely not as the last 5 years have been pretty rough. He pretty much needs to hunt public land or RFW (Ranching For Wildlife) ranches, which cost the same. That said, I prefer the cheap hunts, too, since they've proven to be pretty productive. WY doe antelope is probably his best bet in terms of easy after the shot.

I'd say it's time to have that hard conversation. Just the excitment of planning a hunt is probably enough to upset a sensitive system. I tried for several year to get my fly fishing mentor on a steelhead float trip in his later years. For 4 years in a row, he got so wound up that he'd physically go to hell and cancel before we left. In hindsight, that was likely a good thing, as one is literally out of touch on that outing.

I'm closer to 70 than 60, and hope to hang in for many more seasons. However, I do not want to habitually burden my partners. Fortunately, health has stayed with me. I hope I recognize the issue when the day comes, and I'll unload the rifle, lean it against a tree, and walk back to camp with tears streaming down the cheeks.

In today's busy world, a day afield is simply too valuable to waste. Yes, stuff can happen, and we'd all rescue a friend. When that becomes a regular thing though, it's time to have that talk.

Next yr I'll be married 50yrs and my wife skin me alive if I did that.

When it started with me my wife purchased every Diabetic cook book besides attend classes on how to manage it with me.

If he's not think of his family why would he worry about his hunting partners so I'd cut him loose.

At 72 I still hunt elk/deer but everything is manageable.

This seems not unlike the hard conversation we have to have with our parents when their physical / mental facilities become degraded to where it's not safe for them to continue driving, not for themselves, not for their passengers, and not for the other people on the road.

I think you have to have the conversation, pleasant or not.

Your friend might surprise you, he might already know it's time to throw in the towel but not want to disappoint you. What you have to say may be a relief to him. Otherwise, you need to find a different way to hunt with him, something not so far beyond his limits.

Tom

Interject some reality into it. At you age,count about how many elk hunts you might have left in you and you will find it probably isn't as many as you think. Do you want 25%+ of them cut short or aborted. Add to it that you he the unique ability to be able to hunt with your daughters which is tremendous thing. If the guy took care of himself that is a different story, but it sounds like he won't and you just enable him.


This^^^ as stated by Saddlesore.

If you risk your vacation hunting its your business. Ruining your kids hunt and vacation is inexcusable.

Let him know you need the family time to clear the stress and cobwebs.

What kind of a friend would risk ruining your time afield with your kids? A moocher.

Going into the mountains when one is capable and gets hurt and needs significant help is not the same as going on a wing and a prayer. In the former instance, being apologetic is adequate but his apology for previous disasters would ring hollow with me.

Tell him to start getting in shape - for next year.

If he's that good of a friend, and given what you've said he must be, then I'd sit down with him over a couple of beers and have a heartfelt honest talk with him.

CH, you've been a very good hunting buddy with your pal - really good - but am thinking you realize there is a limit and that you probably have passed it. There is some good thoughtful insight here from several experienced guys - just use it.

I am blessed with a few really fine friends, some of them hunters, and feel certain most would be very enjoyable partners on a hunt. But, your account illuminates one of the reasons I have chosen simply to hunt alone for many years.

Coyote' I feel for you in this situation,you should not feel bad making a change.I hate to sound selfish but what happens to you if you meet with a situation where you are the one who needs help? You must ask yourself if you feel your hunting partner can handle an emergency.When you are miles from help you must be able to depend on your partner for help if you need it.This advice applies to any hunting partner past, present, or future. Good luck to you both.