Views on this caliber for a short range shot? Winchester Trapper

If you want to limit yourself for the right time and the right shot at the right range....go for it.

Any personal experiences with it?

That's a big NO! I'm an out-of-state hunter and in the three trips with limited time,when my shots came one was at 175 yds. for a 5x4, another at 100 yds. for a cow, and the last was at 150 yds. for a 5x5.

I'm not a bow hunter, nor will I place limits on myself waiting for the perfect shot setup but if I had the time and was confident in the hunting location that the elk would be within close range, yes, I would try to use a revolver for myself or you with a limited range carbine.

I have no direct elk killing experience with my 44mag carbine, but I have carried it and will again this year when I'm hunting timber. I don't know exactly what your range limitation is, but I'd be just fine with a 150 yd shot on elk. In my experience on some deer, a fast-handling levergun in 44mag is perfect for this kind of hunting: fast handling/firing, flat trajectory not necessary.

Big bullets out of big calibers don't use the same kind of minimum ft/lbs & velocity for effectiveness at killing game. Expanding or wide flat nose bullets make big holes, and don't rely on speed. I don't think a 300gr slug is required, but you're sure to get an exit on elk with one, unless you shoot 'em in the ass. I'll be using 300gr this year in my Marlin.

Not the 300, but I have successfully used a Speer 240 gr Semi Jacketed bullet with success for elk. If you appreciate your distance limitations as with any other chambering of this realm, it will work fine.

I have reloaded a couple boxes of hollow points in 240 & 300gr. They were Hornady's which I believe is a reputable bullet. My shots will be limited to 100 yards or less when and if the opportunity presents it self. I would like to be inside dark timber while hunting. Yes, only in a ideal world.

Mine are flat points, not HP in the 240 gr

I carried the 240 XTP last year in my Marlin, MV about 1780. After a couple experiences with deer, I decided they were plenty tough enough for elk. This year, I'm shooting my cast bullets: the Lee 310wfngc cast from coww and quenched. They are plenty of bullet, even if I do shoot one in the ass, and are the most accurate bullet I've shot in my rifle.

I just think that there is something sacred about elk hunting with a lever gun. I do have several bolt rifles capable of the long distance shots too. Back here in the east a lot of the shots presented to a deer hunter are less then 100 yards unless your looking for longer shots a lever gun is the ticket. Deep woods are not much more then a clear 50 to 60 yards at best, at least in my woods.

Elk being a much larger critter left me wondering about the bullet choices to use and anyone's experiences with the above mentioned.

you put a 300 gr 44 cal bullet in the lungs from a 44 magnum and you will have yourself elk for supper .

The bullet companies developed the 300gr 44 slug after the cast SSK version was found to be so effective on EVERYTHING at 44 speeds. Even though the jacketed versions have hollow points, the design isn't required to open to be effective, and generally won't open much at moderate handgun speed. Out of a carbine, your impact speed should be above std handgun MV, and you should see expansion on par with lighter versions at handgun speeds.

I am inheriting a 444, and am looking forward to seeing what it will do with 300's on elk.

That is a good response.

There ain't no doubt in my mind that a 300 grain .44 Rem Mag round will kill an elk deader than dead. If an arrow can kill elk, your .44 Rem Mag will work. However, as at least another poster indicated, your effective range would be limited. But then again, hunters of yore used to shoot buffalo a long way away with the .45/70 Gov't.

BTW, If I knew that I could kill an elk at my Guide Gun's effective range, I'd take it. There ain't nothin' that walks that the .45/70 Gov't hasn't killed.

If your certain of your distance, I'm certain that a 300 grain .44 Rem Mag bullet will shoot through-and-through any elk's thorax.

Hi HuntnShoot,

the .444 Marlin is an excellent cartridge. I know that that cartridge will kill everything in North America.

BTW, if you get a chance, pick up a copy of "40 Years with the .45/70" by Paul Matthews. The .45/70 Gov't is one powerful cartridge. I think that the .444 Marlin ain't too far behind it.

Another BTW, if I had a chance to pick up an original Marlin .444 or .44 Rem Mag, I'd be all over it. My Guide Gun, while an original issue with ported barrel, has a ridiculous safety. My kid's friend has a Marlin .357 Mag sans safety. That's the kind I want.

My reloads came from Hornady reloading for the 44 mag rifle. I believe my f.p.s is greater then the typical f.p.s for handguns. Should be plenty of punch for the elk at closer ranges. Time will tell.

I'd hate to bet my life that at 150 yds a normal bullet in 44 mag would get through more than a shoulder and piece of one lung, though it very well may. Years ago with my Ruger auto I can't remember ever getting an exit on small to medium sized Texas whitetails shot behind the shoulder.

Saddlesore, do you remember if you put any through the shoulder and what penetration you got if you did? Also, do you remember anything about any folks having had a real rough time in finding a bull that had been hit in only one lung?

I am not a shoulder shooter and I'm pretty picky about what shots I take. I did not get a pass thru with double lung shot. Bullet was under the hide far side.

I have tracked a few one lungers when others have done the shooting. Ditto when the placement was far back in the lungs. Not something I want to do often.

I shoot elk wih a 50 cal ML also,about the same power factor. They die pretty quick if the placement is right. Not so much if you screw up. Muzzle loader hunting makes one take more care in when or how they try to kill an elk. That usually carries over, at least for me, when hunting center fire

My dad has a Marlin in 45-70 as well. We haven't decided where it is going. I'd not mind loading for it either.

I think folks in general over-think bullets and loads anymore. I'm sure many elk were killed dead with 200 gr 44-40 slugs in the lungs at whatever range they could be hit over and over again.

The 320 SSK in a handgun killed everything including braining elephants before people really began to grasp the power of the platform. Heavy bullets at moderate speeds make big holes in stuff, and that stuff falls over. Guys with 45-70's knew that 130 years ago.

Go for it. I owned a 94 trapper .44 for a few years. I shot the 300 grain XPT HP over 20 grains of Win 296 seated to the front cannelure and crimped hard. I didn't shoot any elk but it sure worked on deer.

The winchester has a pretty long action, much longer than the Marlin. You might try seating to the rear cannelure and see if they'll cycle. If so, you can probably up the charge a bit. I used to run the 300 grain Speer to the rear (deep) cannelure with 22.5 grains of 296 in Ruger revolvers. Be careful. HP vs SP, jacket thickness, how deep they fit into the powder column, etc all affect pressure.

T O M thanks for the tip on the seating, I do know that when the hammer drops on the Trapper my shoulder is bruised soon after. Almost like a tamed 450 Marlin with 420 gr Cast Performance bullet. I am eager to see the results. Penetration might not be what the hard cast rounds can produce, but my shot placement will be heart lung tissue.

Distance is the biggest thing when wanting to use 44 mag. Think 100 yards is as far as I'd go. Maybe 150 if I could shoot a good group consistently. (Clay pigeon size standing up) which I can't.
But I can't wait to use my Ruger 44 mag carbine someday on the west side.
From deer to elk to cougar to black bear this is a sweet brush gun!
No hollow points for me.

My Ruger Redhawk put four 240-grain full house Remington's into a cow elk's neck from about 25 yards. She looked at me and walked away. That's when I put my .44 Mag away and went back to my 300WM. And it gave me 2nd thoughts about the .44Mag as a bear stopper, too.

???? Am I the only one wondering WTF?

Yea, I was being kind and not saying anything.

A gun shop in Southern Idaho had an elk rack, taken in the rifle season.

When the owner was skinning out the skull, he hit something in the skull at the base of the antlers, but somewhat centered in the middle of the valley between the bases.

It was a .44 caliber bullet, mushroomed like a soft point as best could be seen from the scar tissue around the head of the bullet, and calipered from the exposed base bullet base. We always wonder what the story was with the shot...

To many things can go wrong with a neck shot on a Elk especially with a handgun , just to much room for error. Bullet placement is critical with a neck shot on any big game animal, to much non vital area for a killing shot and the animal goes off and dies a slow death if it dies at all. I have only killed five Elk and so not a expert by no means, but if you expect a Elk to fall or react to the shot even if fatal , you had better rethink that, because most will walk off for a short distant just like they aren't even hit and lay down and die.

FWIW, a sample of one. Back in 1988, I used a Ruger Super Blackhawk with a 7 1/2-inch barrel and a custom cartridge with a 300 grain hard-cast flat-nose bullet to take a 5x5 bull in the Holy Cross Wilderness in Colorado. One shot in the heart/lung pocket at a little over 40 yards resulted in a one-shot kill. The bull went a little over 20 yards and tipped over. I was going to shoot him again as soon as he stopped, but didn't get the chance. He was at a bit of an angle and the bullet did break the humerus (the big "shoulder" bone) on the far side. It did not exit.

YES! The 44 mag with 300g hard cast, even from a short barrel revolver will put elk steaks in your freezer, if you make a good shot, within a reasonable distance appropriate to the firearm and your max comfortable distance. I've taken a lot of game with that bullet out of everything from 4.63" SA revolvers to lever guns and it's a killer. Practice a lot and establish your max effective range, then go hunt with confidence� good luck and safe hunting and please post pics of your success when you bag your bull with your preferred combo to ensure all those here on this forum who don't know WTF they are talking about will STFU.

Kind and humble regards,

Foxx

Taking a neck shot with a handgun, if the animal doesn't collapse like the carpet was yanked out from under it, then I missed. Even if I hit tissue, I missed. Neck shots better be about spine shots, because there are better and bigger places to shoot an animal if bleeding them out is the goal. 4 shots with a 44 at the neck of an elk, and it didn't fall, then you missed.

I wasn't going to say anything. But there isn't a alot of animals that can take 44 mag full house rounds into the neck at 25 yards and walk away. one of those had to hit something or all 4 missed. I just don't know what to think of that.
I have 2 elk hanging on my wall with neck shot. I think there is a lot of vitals in the neck.

?New thread about 'Elk neck shots'?

I put an elk down with a mildly loaded 40 at maybe 10 yds. It stood up, I pulled up, it took some steps, I shot, it dropped. I've seen the destructive power of a 240 from a 44, and they lay waste. My 40 made a good hole in and through bone and kept going. A 44 that hit would have removed pieces.

Remington HP, not SP, I bet?

The Reminton 240 HP is super "soft". The scalloped jacket allows it to open up with minimal resistance. Sectional density isn't just about the bullet's original shape, you have to think about what it looks like opened up. The bigger the mushroom, the more resistance to penetrating.

That particular bullet at short range may have been going fast enough that on impact, it over-expanded, making it lose velocity FAST, and it may not have had momentum enough to break the neck bones.

I had that happen with a .223 on a head-on neck shot (under the chin) with a 55 grain nosler solid base. Killed the deer with a knife so we were able to see what happened. The bullet was mushroomed out and stopped against the spine without breaking any bone.

The other possibility is an elk's spine is not centered top to bottom in the neck. Kind of like shooting behind the shoulder and going above the heart/below the spine, there's a spot in an elk's neck which seems intuitive to shoot at where the spine ain't. You might have shot through it. Or, too close to the head, you may have gone under the spine.

One time I shot a bull (bovine) in the neck with a .257 roberts .. too far forward and too low. Poked both jugular veins but didn't break anything. It walked darn near a quarter mile with freakin' ROPES of blood squirting at every heart beat. Just wouldn't tip over.

.44 mag as a bear stopper? Well, I'd rather have a .300 win mag ... or bigger ... but those are awkward to hold onto while fly fishing. Also hard to carry when I'm varmint hunting with a .22-250. The .44 I'm carrying is better than the .300 back home.

There are two issues with any handgun and bears. First is choosing appropriate ammo for the task at hand. Second is being able to place your shots on demand under pressure.

Frankly, selecting Remington's 240 grain JHP for elk is a failure of judgment. It's good for a lot of things .. but it's a ways down on the list for that use.

Tom

If your hold is steady and your aim is true, then your elk steaks will be on the ground. I have a friend that has taken several elk with the 44 mag.

I've taken two cow elk and a buffalo heifer with a 45 Colt and "44 mag" type loads. My loads were 325-gr hard casts at about 1300 fps. My shots were about forty yards and under. None of the three stopped these bullets on broadside chest shots though the elk went between hundred and two hundred yards.

Not a lot of experience but very doable if you take on a bow hunter's mentality.

Tom, I agree with much what you say here, other than the possibility that the bullets were so soft that they didn't get through bone, and therefore the elk just walked off. I can't imagine that happening. I shot Nosler 240 JHP at deer, and striking bone just meant that bone got broke. They have a hollowed nose of bare lead too. Mushroomed perfectly, 75% wt when dug out of 6 in frozen dirt after going diagonally through doe. Remingtons are soft too, likely softer, but the sheer momentum of a 240gr bullet out of a 44 mag at 25yds isn't going to evaporate on vertebrae.

Bullet construction matters when you want at least a foot of penetration, like on a bear, and hollow points would be a scary proposition! In the heavy non-expanding bullet guise, I think there are few portable platforms that can outdo the 44 mag on bears.

Since you mention bovines, and separately 22 cals, my brother bought a young steer and took his 221 Fireball Contender loaded with 53gr TSX to put it down. He opted for a neck shot, and 8 shots later, finally put it down. Those wee bullets weren't getting through the heavy muscles of the neck with enough poop to do damage to the spine. It was a mess, partly because he kept taking angle shots, and the steer wasn't going down, and he didn't guess that the muscle was dense enough to absorb and deflect the shots.

Sectional Density is a ratio of wt and diameter of bullet, and is constant regardless of nose shape or bullet composition.

No. It was a mess because he didn't have a clue......

WTF would a rifle hunter want to saddle himself with 'bowhunters mentality'?

Yeah, he'd be the first to agree with you. That Barnes koolaid and his unwillingness to just put a shot into the skull.

I dunno. Haven't met the steer yet, that I couldn't down with one 53 tsx to the neck. Trick is, knowing HOW to place them.....Funny thing is, I'd be willing to bet that neck didn't retain ONE of those tsx's.......

as for the 'just put a shot into the skull', same thing goes.....gotta know how/where.... .22 lr is MORE than enuff


[img]http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c124/huntsman22/th_MVI_3285_zpsc676d365.mp4[/img]

They ended up all over, including deflecting under the hide and traveling down the neck and into the shoulder. Some exited. MV was about 2600. I wasn't there, but I saw bullets he collected, and listened to his recounting of the story a few times. It was a rodeo, and all the clowns had sad faces. The bullets looked pretty good, the 3 that he found that ended up at the shoulder. Like magazine ads.

I've got a matching contender: Bullberry 14", but mine is chambered in 218 Bee. Since you have experience with the 53 tsx, do you think I could stabilize them well at 26-2700 with a 1:14, and would the 53tsx be worthwhile to attempt shots on deer to, say, 125yds? With that slow a MV?

I wouldn't.... but outta the 223 1-9, they shine

I keep on trying to turn that gun into a BG gun, for some damn reason or other. I have several that work just fine, and are not marginal in caliber, or power level.

There are those here that are trying to turn pistol caliber carbines into elk rifles, too. Me? no way...They say timber/brush gun, but WTF happens when the only critters seen are at 250? I'll stick with the 260/243/30-30 WAY before I saddle myself with a 44 maggie......

I plan to carry my carbine, or if I get it settled, my 10" Contender in 44, but only if I will be hunting timber , with no chance for longer shots. Where I hunt, elk are more likely seen at 450 than 150, and we don't see many the last few years. Like you, I can't afford to saddle myself with a shorter range gun.

Was thinking 44 in a revolver but what's wrong with a bowhunter's "approach" even with the Trapper which does not extend the 44 mag that much further, eh?

I, for one, refuse to only take lung shots at arrow distance. And then have to stop and eat a sammich and take a nap, while waiting for them to die......grin

Listen,..A good ham on rye, a little taste of some amber curmudgeon medicine, then a nap in the sun over by the quaky grove...

You must not be old enough yet.

Nah, I want to start packing meat NOW. Not after dark.....I hate it when my beauty sleep suffers on account of having to let them bleed out.

From the looks of things, you been packing out a lot after dark lately.....

Took a black bear (46yrd) and a mulie (60yrd) with 300gr XTP from my ruger 77/44. Both were broadside and complete pass throughs. Animals both went less the 30yrds and piled up. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a moose or elk with this round inside 100yrds.

Since this thread is about carbines in 44 mag for elk, I wanted to make a few points, in particular since the aspect of range handicapping has come up.

If you look at heavy bullets out of a carbine from the perspective that it isn't the bullet's energy or velocity that do the damage, but rather, it is the size and weight of the bullet that makes a good hole, then the range limitation isn't so much of a limitation. My carbine with 300gr flatnose bullets at 1500-1600 will do a fine job on elk out to 300yds. There are many guys who hunt with heavy non-expanding bullets in handguns at modest velocities and get their elk every year. If I use their velocity benchmark, said 300 yds is a gimme.

Second point: my carbine is light and shoulders like lightning, with sights perfectly aligned. Like a good shotgun, but lighter. I can snap shoot at game, and have done it enough to know it. It is far less cumbersome than my 'big gun'. Elk in the timber, when I've seen them, are either moving or getting ready to do so. Snap offhand shots at ranges from 40-100yds are going to be required. The carbine excels at this.

So the carbine is not the handicap that many are making it out to be. If you think so, take this challenge: shoot yours off a bench at, say 200 until you know where it is hitting, then try to hit a paper plate. I can. I shoot paper plates offhand to past 150 when getting ready to hunt. How many guys say that elk are usually shot from 100-200yds? I wanted to give this different perspective. A 44 mag carbine is not a 100yd gun.

Thank you for the reply:)

Thinking a recipe of hard cast is a better bet then the hp.

+1

I have a few loaded hot in this grain 300 XTP.

I carry a 30-06 carbine. It has a 18 inch barrel. But even with the short barrel it is good for 300-400 yards. A 44 magnum will limit your shots to 100 - 125 yards. You can probably shot a little farther but it may not bring the elk down right away. You could end up with a tracking job from he$$.

Until you see the work that heavy, fat bullets at moderate speed can do, maybe it is best not to comment on how well and how far they work.

In a carbine, it is fairly easy to get a 300gr cast WFN to 1500fps. When you run the charts, and look at the fact that a MPBR shot is roughly 150 yds, and that at 200 you are still on hair on an elk, it is hard to justify, at least in my mind, limiting shots to such short ranges. YMMV, but the numbers won't.

I played this one a few times here but it looks like it's time once again:



This good sized caribou bull is one I killed nearly 2 years ago with my 45 Colt M94 Trapper. The distance was closer to 200 yards than 100. The bullet was a "300" grain cast from either a Lyman or RCBS mold with a weight closer to 320 and a start speed of 1500-1550 fps. The bullet first made contact with a shovel on the antler - punching a neat (large) hole. It then poked a hole in the left shoulder breaking bone and traversed diagonally through the body exiting just in front of the hip point.

Like every other caribou I've killed with cast bullets there was no tracking involved - maybe 5 seconds going in circles before they tip over.

Long holes seem to work just as well - if not better- than massive holes.

Proof in the pudding is always welcome. Nice:)