My son and I just applied for our tags for cows in Fossil Ridge Wilderness CO (near Gunnison) for 3rd season next year. The shots all seem to be between 225 yds and 400yds where the guides take us - due to the terrain in the mountains.

On the previous 3 hunts (only 1 successful) he used my Browing A Bolt 7Mag.

This year I bought a POF P308 (Piston AR-10) with a 16.5 barrel and a Thunderbeast suppressor. While I realize this is not a great choice for the application as the 308 is pushing the limits at this distance, I was thinking he would use this gun this year because he is willing to practice with it far more because reduced recoil, reduced muzzle blast/sound and the coolness factor.

It shoots 178 grain Hornady ELD-X's to 1 in groups and I called them and they told me that this was their best option due to it opening at slower speeds and the BC at long range. The Nosler Long Range AB also have higher velocity but they are not shipping yet. I could also handload CFE 223 to fairly hot loads with SGK's.

I would greatly appreciate advice as to whether to proceed with this plan for have him to shoot the 7Mag. He is 19 and in college.

Thank You

I'd shoot a 308 with no problem but I think any AR-10 platform is going to feel really heavy at altitude.

I have killed elk with 308s and you need not worry about it "running out of power". That's the tripe of the marketeers trying to sell products, but ignoring the truth and the real world.
However you are WAY better off not setting your rifle up for "long shots" because you'll find they are rare compared to the shot you'll get at between 100 and 300 yards.

I use 165 grain Nosler Partitions.

They are very accurate, open up well at long ranges (longer than I like to shoot) and hold together at normal ranges far better then most "long range bullets".
If you are going to use the AR10 style rifle I would set it up to use the Noslers and learn what it likes. You can always carry one short magazine in your pocket with the ELD-X bullets in case you see an elk "way out there" and for some reason you can't get closer. It's very fast to change ammo in an AR.

Me......... I don't. I shoot the flat base Noslers to any range I can shoot. But that's just how I do it. I don't say it's the only way.

I have used them from my 270s at VERY long ranges, but I don't any more. I see no real need to do it, and lots of reasons not to. So far I have been lucky, and I have never fired a shot at a game animal at loooong range that I have not killed, but I think I have pushed my luck as far as I care to.
So I just don't shoot past 500 any more.

I have not had a reason to ever fire at an elk over 400 yards in my years of hunting and guiding for them . Not ever. In fact, in all my years of hunting elk I personally have had to shoot past 200 yards 4 times. And I have have been doing this now for about 42 years. So when I speak of this it's not theory. It's based in 4 decades of experience.

Have no fears at all about the 308 cartridge and elk. Just use a tough bullet and you'll be just fine.

From what I've read the ELD-X's work just fine close or far as long as impact speed is less than around 2900-3000 fps. It won't be a problem in your rifle.

FWIW I've been working with that bullet in my 308. I'm getting 2630-2650 from a 22" barrel with outstanding accuracy. It shoots better than Accubonds for about 1/2 the price.

If I were shooting a 300 magnum I might lean toward the Accubond as it will hold together better at close range at magnum speeds. But in your 308 I'd think it is an excellent choice.

Thanks for the help gents. Our first year we froze for three days and finally my son got one rushed shot - his first in actual field conditions into a herd at 240 yds at near dark. He missed as he had to rush when the cow finally separated for a clear shot for just an instance.

The second year I was very proud and we both got a cow at the same time into a herd that was at a full run in a valley about 200 feet below us and 260 yds as the bullet flies (a much longer walk)

The third year - after 3 days we finally saw one animal and I took a shot at 425 - longer than I would prefer, but it was our only chance. I never thought I would shoot that far and I think I did not add the full 19 inches I needed for my 300WSM 180 AB. I missed.

The POF P308 is very picky with hunting bullets - we cannot seem to get the Partitions to group. I will try accubonds. The POF guys talked me into a 16.5 barrel and I wish I got the 20 as I never thought we would use it like this - he just far prefers to shoot it and the suppressor makes it real nice. Compared to all the charts I guess I am losing about 200fps in the 16.5 vs the 20 barrel?

That should be close. I lose 170fps in my 16.1" Ruger Scout barrel when compared to factory specs.

Put a good Limbsaver pad on the 7mm Mag and let him practice with Remington Low recoil ammo. Then go out and re-sight in with full loads right before you go. When hunting, nobody notices recoil, he just needs time on the glass.

Forget the 7Mag, rock on with the 308. Perfect choice. Recoil does matter, because a flinch is developed in practice, not in the field... but it shows up in the field.

Within reason, the bullet doesn't matter. The 308 is easy on bullets. On a cow hunt, I'd use a 150 or 165 at most.

Yes, bring the .308, but an AR on an elk hunt is not my style. Now if there any reports of ISIS in that area, then bring it with extra mags.
Have fun and good luck.

My small for her age 12 year old used an AR10 pretty successfully in 2015 on her first big game. We used it mainly because of the adjustable stock since she needs a short lop. I get the comments about them not fitting the style for an elk rifle. My daughter couldn't care less.

They are heavy. 150 grain fusion bullet, 187 yard shot. Cow made a short dash and died.

I'm pretty sure Colorado has a 5 round magazine limit.

Ive used 270, 308, 30-06 and 300wm on Elk n Arizona, New Mexico and Montana. Out of the 7 Ive shot 3 were with a 308 and 2 with the 270.

Here in AK, I use the 308 for moose, caribou and sheep.

308 is fine.

Looks like a fine choice. Congrats to your daughter.

While I have no doubt that this is true for you and your location, but it hardly holds true throughout elk country.

In the last dozen+ elk, I have shot exactly 1 under 200 yards. The rest have been between 350-450 yards. Most have been with a .308, and not one needed a second shot.

That said, due to the open terrain where I hunt, I often use a .300WM, in case of longer shots/windy conditions. However, if I knew that my shots were all going to be under 400 yards, I would not bother with a magnum cartridge, and be totally content with a .308.

This - I'd be less worried about the killing power of the .308, and more worried about the amount of fatigue that is going to be present with carrying the AR up and down mountains.

Practicing with a .308 AR is OK when you are rested and fresh, how dedicated is he to practicing when tired, sore, and without some sleep?

With the piston gun and can, you are pushing 11-12 pounds of packing weight?

In CO semiautomatics may have a maximum of 6 rounds in magazine and chamber combined.

I have a Rock River 308. I would hate to pack it very far. I need to weigh it, feels like it weighs 15 lbs.

As Navlav8r said an AR-10 could be rather unwieldy at altitude.

A down-loaded 140 gr NPt in the 7RM will do more with less recoil than a 308 with an ELD will--in my semi-humble opinion.


Casey

Great input from many far more experienced than I. As to the weight of the POF P308 AR platform it is only 12 OZ more than the Browning A-bolt 7mag 26" barrel - it weighs 8lbs 7oz without scope or ammo as opposed to 7 11 of the a-bolt. Although the suppressor on the 308 adds another 12 ounces. So yes we are up at about 11 lbs all in with the Bushnell 6500 and ammo -

Advantages of P308 are - way less recoil and muzzle blast, 4 rapid follow up shots, suppressor is very nice for my son, dad and the guide, accuracy seems to be slightly better than the a-bolt, WAY easier to clean when practicing, more appealing to a 19 year old that grew up with Halo on the x box.

Advantages of A bolt - 7mag far better round for this application IMHO, beautiful traditional rifle, theoretically more reliable (although the 308 has never failed to fire) fits in the horse scabbard better, no ridicule from guides. Better handling for off hand.

I called Hornady and was surprised to learn that they strongly discouraged Super Performance powder in AR platforms due to something having to do with the gas system and powder characteristics. The 200 fps would have compensated for the shorter barrel. I wonder if this is the reason that federal discontinued their hot 308 loads a few years ago.

Since the horses cover most of the distance the weight (12oz) is not a big deal. The hunt is still quite challenging. Up at 3:30 am in 15 - 25 degrees, 90 minutes on the horses in total darkness through very rough terrain, tree branches you can't see hitting you in the face, then the same ride out, again in total darkness, water bottles frozen solid even in the late afternoon etc. Good Clean Fun!

I think with the encouragement on the 308 that I have gotten here, that is what we will try. If only a super long shot presents itself I can always hand him my Sako 85 300 WSM - perhaps the perfect tool for this job. And yes he also practices with my gun. This year I am letting him have the first shot.

cant see an AR 10 fitting in a scabbard and going on a horseback hunt , and why in hell have a suppressor hanging off the barrel to make it even more unhandy ?

get the kid a good 6.5 creed if he is that recoil sensitive and have him practice with proper hearing protection

these days a decent hunting rifle can be had cheap compared to the guided horseback hunt

For sure figure out how you are going to carry an AR before the hunt.

They will not fit in a typical scabbard that the outfitter is likely to have.

You might be able to rig up the right AR soft case to hang on a horse. I've thought about it, but haven't done it.

Need the right horse, straps, and case with d rings.

Rifles hanging off the side of a horse throw the balance off and if you aren't careful the saddle will start slipping to the side. An extra heavy rifle is going to make it worse. Especially with an inexperienced rider.

If you take the AR make sure the outfitter knows about it in advance and can make arrangements for it on the horse.

Great Picture Ralphie

My memories with my son on our hunts are among my finest as I am sure you can relate with your daughter -

Thanks for the advice on the scabbard - you may have averted disaster for me. I know what you mean on the saddles - especially when you are going up and down steep grades and it start slowly sliding. I am a real rookie on horseback and mine almost fell off a couple times with me on it.

I am going to research the scabbard - and possibly another post is in order.

Something like this will carry the rifle in a scabbard:

http://www.eberlestock.com/miva/mer...amp;Product_Code=A4SS&Category_Code=

It'll have enough webbing loops to get it tied on a saddle or a horse, especially with a hand-full of decent cabiners.

I'd strongly agree with comment: "let the outfitter know ahead of arrival".

It's not just getting the rifle to and from the hunt, it's about getting you, the horse, and the rifle around without hurting the first two, the last one is replaceable.

While most, if not all the elk I've taken could have been taken cleanly with a .308, a short-barreled/low-velocity AR10 would be low on my list for an elk hunt.

Have your son use plugs AND muffs when practicing. Recoil can be tamed using a shoulder pad and/or a good pad on the stock.

If your son doesn't like the recoil of the 7mm RM, a .25-06, 6.5 Creedmoor, .260 Rem, 7mm-08 or .280 might be a viable option.

There are better choices for elk hunting than a short barreled AR. Nothing wrong with a .308, either. Some guides might take exception to a client lugging a chamber loaded AR on a hunt. They are also very noisy to load and unload. A 19 year old that is sensitive to recoil of a 7mm Remington Mag is understandable in this day and age. A 7mm-08 or 7x57 might be better. A friend's 13 year old daughter that is 85 pounds soaking wet handles a 7-08 with ease. Just sayin'