Drew another NV bull tag, I'm using a Kimber 84 in 280 Ackley. The Berger 140 VLDs are grouping well, I'm just not sure if this is a heavy enough bullet.

Anybody use these on elk? Thanks in advance!

I'd see how well it shot 160 gr. Accubond and 160 gr. Partition.

Others will have their opinions, but those two bullets have stood the test of time on such critters.

Here's what JGRaider did in Africa with 160 NAB's out of a Tikka 7RM. The .280AI is pretty close to the 7RM. IIRC, JG used the NAB because it shot better in his gun than the NPT. I have guns that like the NPT, others that like the NAB.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/8855404/1

I'd see which one shoots better in your gun, go with it.

IMO.

DF

The Bergers are... not good. Lots of bullet failures. They're trying to reinvent the wheel by using match/tactical bullet designs for hunting to appeal to the tacticool long range crowd, and it may be selling bullets but the wheel didn't need reinventing.

Partitions, Accubonds, or A-frames. 160-175 grains. Pay attention to manufacturer minimum velocities - the Accubond and Partition will have more reach than the A-Frame depending on how fast your 280AI will drive them.

Have killed several elk with the Bergers. Kills them dead. Most were cows within 100 yards.

With that said..... I would go with the above mentioned Partitions or Accubonds. I gave 140 gr Accubonds a second chance last year and results were most impressive on the big brown critters.

How many elk have you shot with Bergers?

Zero. My advice is based on the discussions going on with various Colorado elk outfitters, who have had uniformly bad experiences. Given that I will never touch the things. Their motto should be

Berger - every bullet a failure!

A fragmenting FMJ is simply not a suitable bullet for game where you need substantial penetration to ensure an exit wound.

That's a crock, bob. All of it.

If you say so. Oh wait, no it's not - it's the truth. Full metal jacket bullets are not recommended for big game hunting for a very good reason. Either they don't expand at all, or they fall apart.

There's a very good reason bonded/partitioned soft points are recommended for big game.

Bob, first of all, your entire premise is incorrect.

You don't need an exit wound to kill an elk. You may want one, but to say it's needed is a fallacy.

How's that for starters?

Yup, I agree with many others here. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Partitions, Accu-bonds, Barnes X, Hornady GMX and Inner-Bonds.

I recommend against the Burgers. As a guide for over 40 years and a friend to LOTS of hunters (I am a well known gunsmith in Wyoming) I have seen waaaaaay too many Burgers blow apart. In fact, I have yet to see anything from an antelope up shot with a Burger that didn't have the bullet blow up and penetrate poorly.

Will they kill elk?
Yes.

But just about every other bullet you can buy is better and most are way better.
I would look hard at the 160 grain Nosler Partition if I were you.

Are scenars any good for elk?

Obviouly no good, they're an "FMJ target bullet." No one who knows how to kill elk would have their name associated with "Scenar."

Dammit.

Sorry, did I spook the hole?

What you need an exit wound for is to track the elk. And why would I use a Berger that fails every time when I can use an A-Frame that works every time?

Small bore FMJs are not hunting bullets no matter how much the kiddies wish otherwise.

This is just hunting 101 of course, but we've got some serious clowns here so I'm sure they'll explain how all the latest tacticool bullets are totally rad for hunting elk man.

You're an idiot.

Who will be the first to swallow this hook?

The VLD is not a FMJ bullet. It's an open-tip match bullet that is designed to perform much different from bonded, mono, and other controlled-expansion bullets. To call a fragmenting VLD a bullet failure is humorous. They are designed to fragment after pencilling through a few inches. It's a totally different wounding mechanism than what you would expect from a TTSX or a Partition, but to say it doesn't work well is ignorant. It works perfectly fine when used appropriately. Shot placement and shot angles are more critical with VLD-type terminal performance, but when proper angles and placement are used, quicker kills are more typical than what you'd get with controlled-expansion performance.

When a bullet produces no exit wound (and in fact has no mechanism to produce one unless it fails to expand) that's a failure. Less blood loss, so you get animals going much further, and no blood to track so you're much less likely to figure out where they went.

Berger's "hunting" bullets are designed to fail. That's why no one reputable recommends them for any animal larger than a varmint. The various premium lead core bullets, or copper if required by law, perform FAR better. The Accubond and Partition in heavy-for-caliber weights are consistently recommended because they work.

Pretty bold saying no one reputable uses them or recommends them. I don't know who you are and you don't know who I am. I'd not be talking quite so strongly about those you don't know. So lets' leave at they have never failed to work for me. And GFY.

Or if Ilamas are your thing, GFYL.

Wow, the clowns are out in force

You're an idiot. I think I've killed 10 or 11 elk in the last 15 years with my muzzleloader and no exit wound. Didn't lose any.

You strike me as someone who's read a lot of books on hunting and shooting.

Berger threads crop up here every few months and the gist of the comments can be boiled down to:

(a) I haven't actually used them but they aren't worth a damn--they blow up, don't penetrate, they don't leave an exit wound, and (with the exception of szihn) I know this for a fact because someone told me so.

or

(b) I have used them and they worked for me.

I think it's safe to say the people with the brilliant idea to use a target bullet for hunting, and those rocket scientists who think a bullet going 5 inches in and falling apart means it "worked", well, they're the same people.

People who know anything about terminal ballistics and ethical hunting would never find themselves in that position frankly. When you watch a product repeatedly and consistently fail for others, you'd have to be touched in the head to want to use it yourself.

Congratulations. You've gone beyond "idiot" to azzhole.

Every single one of your points here is false. Congratulations. And unlike you, I've actually watched Bergers kill critters, along with every other type of bullet you cited. Maybe you should put down F&S and get out and actually get some kills under your belt with the bullets in question, before coming on here and making claims full of nothing but verbal bile.

You can't fix stupid

I would take a Hornady interlock over a berger , but that is just me.

I wonder what Larry Root thinks about Bergers.

I see what you did there.

Well at least you'd be using an actual hunting bullet.

There's a good reason premium bullets with a parition or bonding (or both) in heavy for caliber weights are recommended. Elk are big bodied animals, and to ensure your bullet makes it through the vitals and gives you a nice exit wound you need a heavy bullet and you need that bullet to retain the weight as it travels through the animal. The interlock may do that - the lock ring is an attempt to prevent bullet failure. It may not. An Accubond will do much better typically. An A-Frame will basically always work, but you need to make sure the impact velocity is high enough it expands.

The Berger bullets will either not expand at all, or fragment in the first few inches (which you get appears to be random). In either case you're not ensured much damage - if it doesn't expand you get a pencil thin wound, and if it does the depth of penetration is only a few inches and damage may well be contained to one lung. Those kinds of wounds will absolutely kill the animal, but it may very will die hundreds of yards if not miles from where you shot it, and in either case there's likely to be little or no blood to track (no exit wound, or one that seals up).

The Berger hunting bullets are junk, plain and simple. Those who advocate them are fools.

Bob, I see you're relatively new to the Fire.

We got enough trolls already...

DF

And I'm sure you see why. "Clowns, kiddies" and such.

DF, I have an idea he's not new here.

Grinning--and all with about the same level of first-hand experience...:)

This post caught my eye because I drew a premium Nevada Elk tag and am test shooting a bunch of different bullets. I for one need to step back and evaluate all these new bullet choices in context. In my home state I bow hunt and occasional rifle hunt bulls in a wide open high desert location that some tracking is no problem other than I can not stand witnessing a slower than faster kills. In scouting my Nevada unit with thick Juniper/Cedar knock-down bullet choice is more on my mind. I was talking to an old friend outfitter last weekend describing all the various bullets I am shooting.I asked for his advice for my desire for long range plus drop ability. he reminded me how much more advanced all bullets are these days. Of course he reinforced what we all recognize about normal shot failure.That is when bow and rifle hunters do NOT take out both lungs. Penetration, bullet weight retention plus fragmentation are all on our mind but most likely number one is accuracy. It is hard to dispute that Berger shooters have got the confidence in shot placement down. It would be helpful if some fire members could send a picture or two of real bullet failure if in fact the animal was recovered. Similar arguments with the all copper/copper-alloy bullets with impressive penetration but less so all-inspiring internal devastation. Being a newby long range shooter it takes a bunch of time to reload for 600 yards plus. An accurate down range bullet is a must for starters. Have had my share of tuning challenges with several of the long range bullet designs but will get it and then the harder best design choice. Thanks
for the debate.

My 14yo likes them....

Rowdy tags a good one...

You have to just love internet blowhards. My rifles have taken 9 elk using Bergers. In 7mm08 and 7 WSM. Not a single one of those elk took more than three steps.

Please share with the group your personal experiences with Berger bullets on elk. You've made a point to mouth off several times about Bergers performance. I wish to know your personal experiences on shooting elk with them.

Hey, Bob. Do you make friends as quickly and easily in person as you do on internet forums?

Pay absolutely no attention to Llama_Bob. All he's posted about Bergers is a bunch of jibberish.

Here it is, drum roll please:

How enlightening. If I'd have known that Dali Llama Bob was ol' Larry I would have never wasted a second responding to that dullard.

Same. Fake news. Sad.

Wow, are you Berger users a bunch of triggered millennials? Because you're sure acting like it.

The Berger hunting bullet's garbage. You'd be better off with a core-lokt. Why you'd want to wrap your ego up in it is beyond me.

I shoot elk...a lot of them in fact. Big ones as frequently as luck and my skill allow for. I've done so with about a dozen or more different bullets and calibers (not to include the ones I've killed with my bow or MZ).

As near as I can recall, every one of them tipped an elk over with relatively little drama when I shot them in the chest somewhere.

As technology/my skills/ my budget have allowed I've been able to shoot them from increasingly further distance with corresponding confidence. Bergers seem to help in that equation.

YMMV.

Dave

p.s. Am I a "triggered millennial"? I don't even know what that means honestly, but it sounds pretty sinister.

There's only one person on this thread whose ego is wrapped up in this. Sad that you can't see it.

I'd kill a bull with a 140 Berger....

I shoot berger hybrids with great success. They are a,little thicker jacketed than the vld hunting bullet. They kill stuff very quickly,but with a bit more blood shot than some care for. I have also used scenars in my sons 308. I killed a,big 6pt elk with it 2*years ago. He took about 5_steps and tipped over dead. Puddled his lungs.My boy killed a 202" mule deer with the same rifle, it went 3 steps. I could go on,but my point is that llama boy is a moron,and should stick to the cooking Chanel on TV. His opinion is worth very little. Maybe he could enlighten scenar shooter,on the pit falls of these terrible bullets.

The "triggered" bit means something he said hit you in a sensitive spot and you're having a bad reaction to something contrary to your belief system. In truth, if the text in this thread is any indication, the triggered party is the one who threw the term out there.

Well, I'm not saying he's Larry for sure. Could be, but maybe he's just a garden variety azzhole in the same mold. One thing's for sure though. If he's not the same old azzwhole with a differnt name, he's an even bigger azzwhole, which is quite an achievement..

Elk are the new Cape buffalo....

I have never used a Berger to hunt with. Tried a few in a remington 260 but thats it. My big game rifle of choice is a 7mm remington mag. My question to all who like the Bergers is this. With how the bullet is supposed to work ( penetrate a few inches then come apart) would you take a shot at a bull elk that is quartering to you, I am leary of not getting the penetration into the vitals. Or if the elk is quartering away hard will the way the bullets fragments would it travel far enough forward to hit the vitals. I am NOT trying to put this bullet down, I want honest answers. This is the reason why I have not tried this bullet, I don't want a crippled animal. Now I know every scenario is different but I have bow hunted enough and passed on enough bad facing animals to know it happens. I do know that with a TTSX Barnes, a Accubond or Partition in the above described scenarios you could shoot and not worry. Your thoughts on the Berger??

I personally don't like Berger VLDH because my very first kill, an average size whitetail buck, shot behind the shoulder, looked like the bullet exploded at impact. A very dead, blown up deer was the result, given this was only a 100yd shot. I've shot about 20 hogs with that same load and was equally unimpressed. Had I not seen where these hogs ran off to, after impact, I would have never found them. No exit, no blood, nothing.

I am NOT saying they won't kill and elk though, as I've only killed one in my life, with a 7mm 160 partition though.

Exactly - bullet failure is the norm with Berger's "hunting" bullets.

You have an obsolete understanding of "bullet failure."

Stuff I've killed dropped dead, but there was a lot of tissue damage, sorta messy at the skinning shed.

I use 140 VLDH's in my 6.5-284, running them at 3K over 48 gr. RL-17. I'm going to see how well that gun shoots the new 147 ELD and plan to try 139 Scenars.

Seems a big bonus with the VLD is good expansion and fast kills at extended range, great ballistics and accuracy.

I don't LR shoot WT's, sometimes pronghorns.

DF

No, wanting a bullet that reliably passes through the vitals of the animal and ideally gives you an exit wound is not obsolete. It's what those of use who use correctly design hunting bullets can expect every time.

You're just saying good bullet performance is obsolete because otherwise you'd have to admit the performance of Berger bullets is pathetic. You're flailing

168's and heavier are murder on elk. I've not seen or used 140's .

If you use VLD's.....elk are the new prairie dogs.

How many BJ's did you give before you decided you didn't like them?

He didn't say wanting that version of bullet performance was obsolete. He meant that defining as a failure anything other than that version was obsolete.

Well then enlighten us - with my 175gr A-Frames in 7mm, I've always gotten expansion and always gotten an exit wound. 100%. With Bergers, I've NEVER seen one produce an exit wound unless the bullet failed to expand at all. I've never even seen a picture of the mythical one that worked right.

So with bullet A, you always get what you want. With bullet B, you never do. How is preferring the one that works "obsolete"? Or are you saying that having a blood trail to follow in the unfortunate circumstance that you need to track a wounded animal is "obsolete"? Inquiring minds want to know!

Work on your reading comprehension. The type of performance you prefer, high percentage weight retention, good expansion and an exit, is just fine. I never said it's obsolete. The bone of contention is your declaration that any other bullet performance is a failure by definition. What is desired is bringing the game quickly to bag, and there is more than one way to skin that cat.

Larry,

How many elk have you killed?

Thank you. As is usually the case, the guy who insists he's the smartest in the room is just the opposite. Reading comprehension, (and lack thereof) is tell-tale.

And one other thing. A bullet like a Berger hitting the shoulder of an antelope or small deer is different than the same bullet hitting the 18" vitals of an elk, as far as meat damage.

Are you really trying to claim that an wound pattern that gives you no blood trail is as good as a wound pattern that given you a solid blood trail?

If you can say that with a straight face, then frankly I have no respect for you as a hunter. Retrieving your game is is an ethical imperative, and in the worst case tracking is the only tool available to do that. It's impossible to do enough damage to the heart/lungs to guarantee an animal won't go a very long way. They may "typically" drop fast, but think how far you could move holding your breath before you passed out.

Worse yet, Bergers have a bad habit of blowing up so early that on a large animal, you may not even get to the heart or 2nd lung and just trash the hell out of the close lung. In that case, the animal could go miles - and again, no blood trail.

Funny how you have such a precise idea about bullet expansion when you don't recover the bullets.

I haven't claimed anything.

Of my rifles I'd be happiest lining up on a big bull with my 338 mag flinging 250 grain Partitions, but that isn't the point I'm arguing.

It's real easy to tell if a bullet expanded or not from the wound track and exit wound.

Do you even hunt?

Llama Bob, lets see some pics of your victims.

Oh, and this is way overdue.......

TO THE 24HCF GUYS;
Please accept my apologies for presenting information in this thread in which Dali Llama Bob agreed with. I must now look myself in the mirror and apologize to myself.
Please forgive me.
Sincerely,
JG

Well the "point" you're arguing makes no sense. Exit wounds are a good thing. They help you discharge your ethical responsibilities as a hunter, and as a practical matter make sure you get the meat. Similarly, making sure your bullet makes it to the heart and back lung is a good thing. Doing both requires a certain level of penetration, which in turn requires a certain level of sectional density and weight retention.

Many popular bullets have these desirable properties. Berger does not. So why precisely would anyone want to use the Bergers? They like losing game? It's not like the better designed bullets are hard to get - heck, they're far more common than the failure-plagued Bergers.

Not always, and yes I do, azzhole.

You want to come along and try to keep up with me, just let me know.

You strike me as one who'd rather sit around and talk about how you really need A-Frames to kill an elk.

No apologies necessary, it's not every day that Larry Root is reincarnated. That's what you meant by "Dali Lama," right?

The point is a lot of people have found that Bergers made a high percentage of animals drop "right now" for them, exit wound or not. Your preference for an exit wound doesn't invalidate what they have seen first hand, nor does it make the hyperbole in your argument against Bergers any more accurate.

The goal isn't to have a "high percentage" of animals recovered. It's to recover all of them. Without a good exit wound, there's no way you can be sure of that. An exit wound also speeds the animal "dropping" since it facilitates blood loss.

I have yet to hear a single reason why one would want to use the failure prone Bergers instead of the many reliable bullets that are readily available.

"Hyperbole??" That means bullsh**, right?

Read more carefully. I didn't say anything directly about recovery percentage. I said "drop right now" percentage being high. Not needing to track is a way to enhance recovery, right?

Question: If the chest contents of an animal are scrambled, and its blood is sloshing around in its body cavity rather than moving through its circulatory system, how would the blood also falling onto the ground make the animal fall any faster?

That's a reasonable working definition.

Internal bleeding drops blood pressure much slower than external bleeding.

Also, with a frangible bullet on a large animal, it's quire possible the chest is not "scrambled" and in fact the heart and far lung are intact or close to it. It all depends on the lottery of where the fragments happen to go, and that's why bullets that penetrate deep and track straight are better. That way you know if your shot is in line with the heart that you'll actually get the heart and both lungs. With a poorly designed bullet like the Berger, there is no such guarantee.

You're as FOS as a Christmas turkey.

And yet the Berger tacticool tykes can't explain why anyone would want to use one instead of an actual hunting bullet.

And despite all the huffing and puffing, they can't deny that the terminal performance sucks.

I had a New Years resolution I'm trying to keep. Not arguing with azzholes on the internet.

PS, I don't hunt with Bergers myself so save your little insults for those who do.

I have never killed anything but steel with a Berger bullet, so I am no authority on how they work on critters. But I do like exit holes in critters. I think they tend help with blood trails and two holes in the chest of critter is more likely to create a bilateral pneumothorax,or deflation of both lungs.

Having said this,using a 225 grain Nosler partition led to a long tracking job on a 170 pound whitetail buck,and I can promise you it had an exit wound.

So I think really tough bullets can be slow killers if they don't do enough internal damage. I have also seen relatively fragile bullets fragment on the surface and fail to reach the vitals,in these cases quick follow up shots saved the day.

It seems to me that the bullet which expands rapidly and gives you penetration well into the vitals is the way to go,but there are lots of bullets that do that well enough. Now days it's hard to pick a bad one.

How does a bullet fail, when it simply does what it's designed to do?

I do know that 140's outta my 6.5/06 ai won't stay in bear, or any of the 3 deer species...

Partitions aren't actually particularly tough bullets - they've got a very soft nose and tend to drop a lot of fragments.

The reality is that ANY bullet can leave you tracking, because barring a CNS hit there's nothing you can do to ensure the animal drops in place. Even breaking both shoulders is no guarantee - wild animals have insane pain and shock tolerance sometimes.

Having a massive blood trail is a good start to finding the animal though.

The Bergers aren't "designed" to do anything hunting-wise. It's just their target/tactical bullets with a slightly different jacket. They fail by means of inadequate penetration due to excessive fragmentation (expect when they randomly fail to expand at all).

Used a 270 gr Swift A-Frame from my .375 H&H on this blue wildebeest and the bullet did not exit. The shot was around 100-125 yds away.


Guess we were lucky to even recover it,since there was no exit wound for it to bleed out from.

Where did the bullet end up?

Of course they offer a high-SD 300gr version of that bullet that would be recommended for penetration. The one you used has a lower SD than the 7mm 175gr by a good margin.

Interesting, is a ballistic tip a hunting bullet?

Killed this impala with a .30/06 and 180 gr Nosler Partition,it was shot quartering towards me and the bullet was found in the opposite side hindquarter. If you look hindquarter,you can see the tuff of hair bulging out where the bullet is.


Guess we were lucky to find that one too,since there was no exit wound.

It's not a recommended hunting bullet for larger animals due to insufficient penetration. If you ask Nosler, they'll recommend the Accubond and Partition just like I did.

In a bag,here at home.

So,how would have the 300 grain SAF done better,the blue wildebeest is dead. I can prove that cause I'm in the pic with it and it is not alive. In other words,how did the 270 gr SAF fail?

Are you trying to say that an animal can be brought to bag even if its juice doesn't hit the ground?

Yup, an animal can be brought to bag "even if its juice doesn't hit the ground." I know it is hard to believe.

When you get lucky and the animal drops quickly, it makes no difference. When you get unlucky and tracking is required, it makes all the difference.

It's smarter to plan that you might get unlucky and be prepared, and then if things go well you're pleasantly surprised. When you plan on everything going right, the consequences are predictable.

I will also say I'm less impressed with the "big bore" A-Frame design than the < .35 cal version. They made it a lot softer, which is not necessarily a good idea on the kinds of game larger bore guns get used on.

That is the biggest load of bullschit I've read. Also the blue wildebeest did drop quickly,it ran off about 50 yards or so.

That also does not explain how the 270 grain SAF failed. Try again.


Lets see some pics of animals you have killed.

How many animals have you killed with the <.35 A-Frames to come to that bullschit opinion?

Call Swift if you don't believe me. They also show terminal info on the website showing the big bores are softer. They're designed for a minimum impact velocity about 300 ft/s lower.

LET'S SEE PICS, for the 3rd time.

Well aren't you a special little snowflake! Why precisely should I do anything you want?

This is your quote "I will also say that I'm less impressed with "big-bore" A-Frame design than the <.35 cal version." Do not see anywhere in that quote to call Swift.

You were less than impressed with the A-Frame in the big-bores. Why,which animals have you used the big-bore A-Frame on?

I used the 270 grain SAF on blue wildebeest,springbok,blesbok,oryx and jackals.

I'm less impressed with talk about bullet design than I am with results.

You seem to be long on the former, and short on the latter. All horn and no motor. All hat, no cattle. All Booster, no payload.

I would say "you get the picture" but I doubt it.

You seem to get all your information from bullet manufacturers. Congratulations.

I love it You get proven wrong and easily to boot (it was on the website for Christ sake). Now now you're dodging and hiding and trying to change the subject. Pathetic!

Answer the question bob.

He's not dodging anything, just trying to see if you've ever actually killed an animal with the bullets you're talking about, or whether your "expertise" comes from websites and such.

I think we all know the answer to that.

I love how you clown are convinced you know more than the bullet manufacturers about their bullets. Real pieces of work, you two

Oh I've killed several elk with BT's, along with allots deer using their "varmint" bullets, ie; 55 gr @ 4000 and 80's @3650.... they are magical...

all talk and no action(adjective)

Speaking, promising, or boasting much, but doing little.

Synonyms:
all booster, no payload, all talk, all mouth and trousers, all wax and no wick, all foam, no beer, all hat and no cattle, all lime and salt, no tequila, all shot, no powder, all icing, no cake, all crown, no filling, all hammer, no nail, all mouth and no trousers, all sizzle and no steak

So,in a round about way,bob,you never used big-bore SAF on any animal.

Call swift!! Call nosler!! God damn your funny

I love how you get all your information from bullet manufacturers. Do you really think Nosler is going to tell you to use a cheap ballistic tip when they went to all the expense and trouble of designing bullets they can sell for twice the price to idiots like you who parrot their web page marketing blather?

Actually, I said nothing of the sort. You're making things up.

Meanwhile I'm laughing at your inability to understand what's going on.

Call mommy,call daddy!

If you'd be impoverished by buying a box of accubonds, you've got bigger problems than just being clueless in this thread.

The cost of bullets is trivial compared to the other expenses involved in hunting, no matter what bullet you use.

That's the first good idea you've had! Give 'em a call and let them know you're being embarrassed here. Maybe they can help you out

"Collect call from Pinedale Wyoming...."

Dumb ass, I'm talking about bullet companies pushing their "premium" bullets on numbskulls like you, to them it makes a huge difference when they sell a product that costs twice as much.

As far as being impoverished, if you ever want to make a wager on whose W-2 has more zeroes on it, just let me know.

Here is your quote bob,the way I read this is you have used big bore SAF on animals.

Ooh, big man

You're the one whining about bullet prices. Sad!

Where are some pics of the animals you have killed,one pic would be a great start.

Well, you've changed your mind now!

If there's one constant in this thread, it's that you're completely confused.

Yeah,sure bob.

Another pic of an animal I've killed.

No, not whining about prices at all bobby, where'd you come up with that? The Nosler website? LOL.

I'm just glad there are guys like you who fall for the hype and buy a whole box of"premium"bullets every year. Keeps the prices down on the non-premiums for those who buy in bulk.

You sure backed off the "impoverished" bullsh** though didn't you. All hat, no cattle is right. All jerk, and no off.

Your poor grasp of the situation seems to be bottomless. Why the hell would anyone need to buy a whole box of bullets every year just to hunt?

And your attitude is pure poverty. Are you worried Trump will cut off your housing relief and food stamps?

Comedy gold!!!!

He won't shoot a box of bullets in his lifetime, but he'll read 22 books about it.

Who needs books when you have the Nosler website?

All sizzle and no steak, all bark and no bite, all pussy and no claws...

This guy isn't worth a single reply. He's off in la-la land while the rest of us go outside and actually use things and kill critters with actual bullets. But at least he gets to read about it on the Nosler website...

As them Texicans are so fond of saying, "All hat, no cows"...

Tell the Dolly Llama that if the critter be deceased, ya don't need no bloody trail.

Just whup out yo sharp blade, go to carving up the carcass...

DF

I'm a match bullet kind of guy.....but I follow these steps:
Learn how to hunt..
Learn how to shoot..
Learn when to shoot..
Learn where to shoot..

It's actually pretty simple.

I know what to expect after all this time but I do get tired of the attitude.

"I've got NO experience with the question at hand but I'll tell you, you're doing it wrong."

A reasonable comment would be, "I've got NO experience with that"

Or maybe, "I'm more comfortable with XXXX"

I do hate the "Off Season"...

LOL. Yep.

145 LRX

You've learned well, Grasshopper.

That, and shut yer yap. You might learn something.

There is so much wrong with this I hardly know where to start.

Anyone that has read my posts over the last few years knows I'm not a fan of Berger bullets. Yes, they can kill and do so in a dramatic fashion. The problem I have with them is I want a bullet that will penetrate more deeply than even Berger claims if faced with a wounded or possibly wounded animal heading away in high gear. My choices include, in no particular order, North Fork SS, Barnes MRX and TTSX, Nosler AccuBond, Swift A-Frame and Scirocco II.

Generally I get an exit wound with these bullets. Generally but not always. I've never lost an elk or any other animal when they didn't exit, nor did I have to track them as they went straight down or down within a few steps.

I am not a Berger user but have 0 issues with the folks using them since I've seen enough of people killing the heck out of stuff.

I have shot a bunch of elk and deer along with seeing a lot of the others I hunt with and getting exits on elk with Partitions, Accubond, Bitterroots, Sciroccos and similar isn't a guarantee and to be honest hasn't affected the outcome for us. Two holes is okay by me, but I'll gladly trade a widely expanded bullet that is wadded up in the skin on the far side knowing it probably left everything churned up pretty good.

Exits on elk are pretty tough to guarantee if you kill enough of them. But one or two animals really doesn't make a sample size worth mentioning.

And yet you are convinced that you know more about Berger hunting bullets than Berger does.

The one animal I've lost had two holes in it - in and out. At the start it left the Biggest blood trail I'd ever seen - thick stripes 2-3" wide and 2-3 feet long. We were sure the cow would be down behind the next stand of scrub oak or sage. Nope. Followed it over the crest of one hill, across a valley and over the top of the next peak. Lost the trail completely about 150 yards from a fence line. as dark approached. Went back the next morning and had no better luck.

Exit holes don't guarantee anything. Have had quite few with no exits but never lost one of them.

And another thing that is wrong is saying Nosler would automatically recommend an Accubond over a Ballistic Tip.. I have spoken to quite a few of their techs over the years and sorta why I loaded the 180 Ballistic Tip for my buddy in his 300 Weatherby, cause Nosler said they would be fine.. This sorta stuff could make a guy confused on what really works and what works in someones head..

Correcting everything that is wrong in his posts would be a full-time job...

Point taken...

Or drive someone to drinking....heavily.

So your argument is, since even the A-frame did not exit......the frangible VLD is a better application on heavier-boned game?

The argument is even if you agree with Bob's choice in bullets his reasoning against the Bergers is laden with bunk.

The other argument is, shoot what you want and what works for you and be happy with your choice. But don't run down others' choices because they don't work like you think a bullet is supposed to work based on what the "ideal bullet" was 50 years ago.

That's the problem....we're voluntarily going back to the frangible cup & core bullets we had to use 50 years ago.

Friends don't let friends shoot VLD's at big game.

You're as clueless as llama knob.

VLD's don't function terminally like standard C&C bullets. How many Bergers have you shot into game? Curious if your dislike for them is based on a tally of unfavourable experience, or theory only.

Nope,you do not need an exit wound to kill big game.

If we did, we'd all be using solids for everything.

Or just use TSX's.

Phugging-A, I just browsed through all this bull chit. Pick a flocking bullet and go hunt.Taking an internet poll on what to use is akin asking a stranger what girl to marry. Elk are mythically tough, but in reality give up the ghost pretty quickly.

Read Pat's 4 points carefully (scenarshooter), glue them to your forehead, and repeat often.

Not an answer to my question, but a phenomenally fantastic diversion attempt. 10/10

Mike have you killed anything with Bergers? Or "target" bullets? Or an elk?

130 grain VLD out of a .260

Entrance



Exit

Thanks for all the responses, gotta love the way these threads go!

My only Berger experience, although vicariously, was the goat in my avatar. The client shot this goat with a 300 Win mag with 180gr Bergers, not sure what design but they were a hollow-point. I told him to aim for the shoulder to break him down, as the goat was in a little depression and the rest of the hill was pretty steep. His instincts must have taken over, he hit midway in the lungs. The goat walked in circles for maybe 10 seconds before going down on the lip of the hole he was in. And rolled, fortunately only 100 yds.

The bullet didn't exit, goats are tough, but I would have thought we should have had an exit. This was 10 years ago, maybe Bergers designs have changed since then. The 7mm 168 Bergers are fairly well respected for elk here, I couldn't load 'em far enough out to get close to the lands and still go in the magazine.

Maybe they'll come up with "elk spray", kinda like bear spray.....

I wonder if from time to time, Rick adopts a pseudonym like Llama Bob, or Larry, and logs on to the site, making stupid comments, just to generate more traffic.

Did you try shooting them away from the lands?

That's the answer you're gonna get.

I bet 168 classic hunters would shoot

Often VLD's shoot very accurately when seated well off the lands.

I'll try 'em.

OK, stupid question, since I'd be setting 'em deep, could there be a problem with the gas going around the bullet and ahead into the throat?

I tend to agree with Mike and have often stated that I think most if not all animals I've taken in the last 35 years could have been taken with my .22-250 and a 40g varmint bullet. The one exception that comes to mind immediately is a mulie buck at about (from memory, don't quote me) 150 yards. I was going for a quartering away shot and the buck stepped forward and turned just as the trigger broke. The result was a shot to the ham and a North Fork bullet that was recovered from up against the sternum. It is quite possible a 40g varmint bullet would have done so much damage that the buck would have gone down or stopped or at least proceeded slowly enough that I could have put more 40's into him until the job was done but that's not the kind of harvest I even like to think about.

When it comes to bullet choice, and while I have had discussions in which I've tried to present both sides fairly, I've never recommended a Berger to anyone. If others choose them that's OK by me. I'll continue to recommend any of many other choices first, with a select few where high impact velocities are possible.

The problem with Mike's statement and others is Berger VLDs don't act the same as conventional frangible cup and core bullets. They may well not act like some want a bullet to act, but that's a different question.

My firsthand experience is .... not much.

I used a Berger VLD one time.
Got a nice bull.

Bullet did not exit but the entry was substantial enough.
It really only made a slight tear on the opposite side of the ribcage. Not even visible in the photo.



If this is fair representation then it did blow up a little bit upon entry.
Maybe could be a bad deal if it struck bone.

The accuracy seemed to be there. This was 496 yards.






I don't have any big gripes about the bullet but it didn't convince me that I like it better than a partition.

Speaking of Pat, when one needs advice on killing critters, ask those who've done it. Check Scenarshooter's posts and you'll see an awesome photo album of what he can do/has done with a rifle.

Bergers kill and they're pretty expansive. LR hunters like them because they are deadly at extended ranges when the bullet isn't moving as fast.

Bergers do like to jump; BR shooters often jam them, not the best scenario for hunters.

Like most high ogive bullets, COAL can be critical. You need to find the "sweet spot" or optimal COAL.

Here's a useful protocol: http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/03/berger-tips-

And, as posted earlier, you don't need a blood trail, standing over a dead animal.

I've killed WT's and pronghorns with Bergers. Fast moving VLDs can create a messy scene at the skinning shed, but they're lethal. Everything I've shot with Bergers was DRT, trailing not an issue.

DF

I'll also add that anybody who claims an exit hole plays a larger role in blood loss and bullet lethality than damage to the vital organs INSIDE the animal doesn't know what they're talking about.

I'll also add that anybody who claims a frangible bullet is not more susceptible to heavy bone on entry doesn't know what they are talking about.

Did anyone say that?

Nope, but Llama Bob posted this: "Internal bleeding drops blood pressure much slower than external bleeding."

I've only killed 4 elk with 180 gr. Bergers out of my 7mmSTW - 3 never took a step, justed crumpled where they stood. The only elk that wasn't DRT, was a cow that was shot as she was running about 80-90 yards away, after the shot she maybe went 30yds before she crumpled up, and she left the biggest blood trail I've ever seen left by any critter. Looked like somebody filled a 5 gallon bucket with blood and flung it down the trail - Ray Charles could of followed it. Two of the 4 elk had exit holes, both being close shots of less than 100yds. As far as the Bergers go - I love em, they do the job and they're accurate as hell.

Pretty funny stuff you throwing a hissy fit about stuff you haven't a clue about Mike...

Dolly Llama's Troll terminal ballistics is about as entertaining as his Troll hemodynamic physiology.

He's equally uninformed on both.

DF

Amen Dirtfarmer. The guy is very "entertaining".

Disconcerting that people like him actually walk around with loaded weapons.

Best post of the whole thread.

So now the question is,did the 2 bullets that exited fail, or did the 2 bullets that did not exit fail? Hopefully lama boy will weigh in and answer this question as only he could do.

"Cheap" entertainment.

DF

Llama bob is the gift that keeps on giving.

Thanks but my vote for the best post goes to this one, because it was back at the beginning of the thread and summed it up before it unfolded:

smokepole you're just arguing with a keyboard hunter without a single animals experience. Not to mention that Burger tested the hunting VLD on red stag in New Zealand and smoked them.

+1

After reading this thread thus far the only thing I regret is not having a large bucket of popcorn...............................................and a beer.

More pages than when I asked if anyones' Remington 700 bolt handle had broken off.....

This has been explained over and over again but sometimes you simply can´t drive a donkey to the water regardless how thirsty he is.

The killing mechanism of the VLD is totally different to other bullets; It will drill the first 2-3 inches of tissue (any tissue, including bone) without any expansion and will then blow up causing massive destruction. If the animal you're shooting is big enough this massive destructions will happen inside the animal and if it is not big enough you will have a horrible exit hole.

I have used them extensively on cull hunts in South Africa and Namibia and know they are efficient killers and this is something unargueable. The proof being in the pudding.

Shooting so many animals, from Springbucks to Zebras with them, I have eventually had one or two do a funny thing inside, though always killing the animal.

If you think you need an exit hole to kill an animal you should use large caliber cartridges loaded with solids.

Or, if you think how well a bullet kills is dependent on the looks of a recovered bullet (VLDs will normally look horrible!) then you should only use low velocity loads with monolithics, partitioned, bonded, etc. bullets.

I try to throw a hissy fit once or twice a day. They say it's the equivalent of registering 3000 steps with a girlie-man fitbit.

Been a guide/outfitter since 1997. Dealt with many experts......probably just like you. We've kept a journal.

Elk outfitter?

Darn, there really is no getting anything past you.

Whitetail outfitter in Iowa?

Iowa Elk outfitter.
In certain locations Iowa even permits hunting with rifles.

Yes, we did operate within a couple hundred yards of some trophy elk. Then, Timberghost fortunately moved them. Perhaps Jorge, hatari, or Pugs shot one at the other location.

We've dealt with some real experts over the years. I do see similar personalities in many posts here on the forum.

The January rifle doe-hunts are currently discontinued. Pretty sure we weren't the only complainers to the State concerning early-shedders getting shot in January.

But, you can use some straight-walled cartridges now, passed this year. Can use them during the shotgun seasons even.

These things sound magical. All this, without computer programming or anything?

Who is being led to water, again?

Guess I'm guilty of just falling for some fad, preferring heavier constructed bullets for heavier boned game.

LOL, more like you're a graduate of the Barney Fife guide school. Not just anyone can be a "registered Iowa deer guide." Some of those spreads are literally hundreds of acres,and you have to be able to find the blinds in the dark using only the headlights of the 4-wheeler.

And of course if you "make the grade" you're an expert on western elk hunting too. Who knew?

So, doing something or other within a couple hundred yards of a high fence hunt makes you an elk outfitter. OK.

Spoken like a true hunting expert.

If I mention there is another elk farm out in Beaverdale, would you 'knight' me as a master elk guide? The sword has to tap on both shoulders. Flip the sword blade too.

It has to be done by an expert.

Evidently allowing Iowa hunters to use rifles may jeopardize the practice of party hunting (filling someone else's tag).

http://www.iowasportsman.com/forum/viewtopic.php?showtopic=686047

Nevertheless, even in a state where rifle hunting is extremely limited experts offer the mountain states hunters free advice.

I thought we were offering opinions. Only experts can offer declarations and advice.

Opinions are like Iowa deer guides.

Agreed. Berger claims they work a certain way and that isn't the way I want my bullets to work. So I don't use them. Couldn't care less what people not in my hunting party use. Whatever lifts their skirt.is OK by me.

That's right Mikey, not much gets by me.

Especially a bullsh**er. Of course, that's not to say I'm at the same elite level as a "registered Iowa Guide."

Is it true that some of the places you guide are literally hundreds of acres, with multiple blinds? That must push you to your limits.

I know, you're 20X the hunting authority because of your 20,000 post count.

Great job. Expert status.

LOL, nice try but go back and read the thread mikey. You're the one giving your expert opinion, not me.

The difference between you and me is, I don't run my yap and give opinions on stuff I've never done. Try it some time.

Huh?

What you mean huh?

Are you that dense?

But he did stay at a Holiday Inn Express...

I bet this is doing wonders for his outfitting business.

Good heavens.....can you at least hold off on the ankle biting til we sign off?

Shadow expert.

Key word.....WAS.

But, but, but....chamois......................that African game is not the same as our ceramic armored kevlar skinned elk ...........................how dare you compare those facts (dead animals) to our internet hunter (hunt and peck) experience......... .......

Mike is apparently an expert at uploading Barney Fife photos and memes. That much we can give him.

He's a huge fan, calls himself "Mr. Furley."

All this talk about these "tough" elk have got me scared.... I'm thinkin 375 mode....

1. Get a rifle.
2. Pick a load.
3. Learn to shoot it.
4. Choose your shots based on your ability.

99% of problems solved.

That's not what you said earlier

Show me where I've said anything else.

What unit?

First, not from animals but from water jugs, which I’ve found to have a decent test medium for a variety of reasons. Not the least of which is that bullets that perform well in the jugs seem to do so in animals as well.

The photo blow shows various bullets and the number of jugs they penetrated. The .30-06/165g Sierra saya ‘XTP’, copy/paste error. In reality is is a GameKing, as specified by the “Federal P3006D”.




The three bullets shown below are:

.30-06, 165g North Fork @ 2800fps, 500yds from dirt, 145.0g retained
.30-06, 165g North Fork @ 2800fps, ~25yds from cow elk, 133.2g retained
7mm 140g North Fork @ 3200fps, ~150yds from buck mule deer, 131.2g retained

Not a lot of difference, regardless of range or target. The last one (140g 7mm RM) went from ham to sternum .



The bullets below:

350g North Fork, .45-70, 6x6 elk, obliterated a section of leg and near rib, shattered far rib.
160g Grand Slam, 7mm Rem Mag, 5x5 elk, 70.7% weight retention, destroyed both shoulder joints, made it to far-side hide.
162g Hornady BTSP, 7mm Rem Mag, spike elk, 48.7% weight retention, hit a near side rib.
180g North Fork, .300 Win Mag, 200-yard steel – the only bullet I tried that didn’t splatter in a gazillion fragments (as witnessed by nearby paper targets that got shredded).

Note that the Speer Grand Slam and Hornady InterLock bot impacted about 110 yards out. The Grand Slam did a LOT more damage and retained a lot more weight. In 20+ years of using them, this was the first Grand Slam I recovered.



Took my last elk, a small 6x5, with this 7mmRM/160g Speer Grand Slam at 411 yards – 4 steps and down according to my hunting buddy.









For accurate down-range bullets (600 yards) I’ve had no problem with North Fork SS, Barnes TTSX/LRX or Nosler AccuBond, regardless of cartridge. More importantly, I expect these bullets to perform about the same regardless of range.