My father hunts and shoots a 257 Weatherby Magnum. Hand loads Barnes bullets at max velocity. He is a very good shot. A few years ago in Arizona he had to shoot a bull elk that was about 120 yards away 5 times!! So my question is are those Barnes petals shearing off and the slug acting like a solid? Because when I butchered it they were all exit wounds. At what, 3300 fps or so are those 115 grain slugs that did zip right thru that bull just act like solids? I also hunt with a 257 from time to time. I use the now discontinued Federal Premium 257 Weatherby Magnum 115 grain Trophy Bonded Bearclaw. An uber awesome bullet IMHO. And I have never had crapass performance like my fathers results. Just doing some wondering. I've never got stellar groups when I tried using Barnes bullets so I don't use them. For elk I'm a Swift A-Frame guy.

What did the insides look like and where did he hit him? A lot of times Elk refuse to believe they are dead even when hit very hard

I have had the same experience with a Barnes 127 gr LRX in my 264 WM last fall. Knocked a cow Elk off her feet and ten minutes she got up and run off. I'm done with Barnes bullets!

You grazed her spine.
The problem was not with the bullet design, the problem was with where the bullet was directed.

Shot a nice 8 point Whitetail from about 175 yards four times in the heart/lung area and all four icepicked (270Win). He took all four shots and finally laid down right there, still breathing as I walked up on him to finish him off. Shot another doe at about the same distance, taking out both lungs. Found her after a long long search, with zero blood trail, 310 yards away. The 310 yard distance was a straight line distance measured by waypoints on my GPS. Another 10 pointer shot the same way traveled about 150 yards through some moderately heavy brush, finally giving up the ghost. Shot him with a 165 grain TTSX out of a 300 Win mag. My statistical sample is not just these three instances, but they do represent a microcosm of my Barnes events.

I'm your biggest fan if you have them work for you....they just don't make my propeller spin. Your mileage may vary.

Hunters up the hill killed this cow Elk and we helped gut and pack out the cow. Bullet had entered three inches below the spine and broke a rib on entrance and nicked one going out. As this was Ranching for Wildlife (Blue Sage) you need to report all wounded animals to the Game Warden. He told us that the bullet went through what he called No Mans land or the Zip Zone. He said that when Elk are standing there is a space between the top of the lungs and the spine and that is where the bullet passed. I had never heard this term before. He went on to say that he has had to put down Deer and Elk that have arrows protruding from this area.

I'm thinking that a cup and core bullet may have acted differently on the broken rib and put holes in the tops of the lungs from fragments. Just saying but I will not use the Barnes again just because!

Yep, that's pretty a pretty common result when you hit animals in that area, and a different bullet would have likely resulted in similar results. Been there before, unfortunately!

Now, when I see an animal immediately drop at a hit, I put another round into it for insurance.

Also, from what I understand the top of the lungs have very little blood pressure; I know that animals can go a long ways with such hits.

I've shot a bunch of critters from coyotes to elk with various tipped versions of Barnes , never shot an animal a second time with them.. they just died. Just like they continue to do with the "target" bullets I'm using now.

Just lucky I guess...

I actually wouldn't be using 115's in a 257 either, go lighter. Think twist/length and rpm/speed.

I have had good luck with the100 TTSX's from 75 yards to 650 on mule deer.The one at 75 yards was a neck shot and dirt if not quicker.The longer shot behind front shoulder and stumbled then just fell over.They just shoot good out of the gun.My 300 wsm like the 168 Bergers and have had good luck on coyotes,antelope,deer,and one 375" bull.
I know everyone loves partitions but my results have varied with them- but most likely it was me.

I shoot only Barnes 100 gr. TSX or TTSX bullets out of my .257 Wby, pushed at 3700 fps MV. I have never needed a second shot on anything, from coyotes up to and including elk. I also have never recovered one of these bullets from game, so I honestly can't tell you what the looked like, but I can tell you they kill things dead!

Not a .257, but a .240 Wby, 80 gr. TTSX at 3,600 fps. Slightly smaller version of the above. Chest shot a doe at a hundred yds. or so. She ran over a hundred yards, had to find her in the woods at night with flashlights.

LOTS of superficial damage to rib cage, small entrance and exit wounds in chest. Not enough internal damage to suit me.

Not too unlike the .257 Wby scenario, seems most of the K.E. was expended BEFORE the bullet entered the chest. I think these fast monos do best busting bones, shoulder shots, head shots on hogs, etc. Maybe 3,600, 3,800 fps has reached the realm of diminishing returns. Terminal ballistics is an interesting study. Matching bullets and velocity for optimal performance on game animals is an art more than a science. IMO...

Now, my .257R, shooting 100 TTSX's at 3,250 fps, seems to do better on WT chest shots, is my go to bullet in that gun. BTW, sub MOA accuracy over max H100V loads.

My current go to bullet with the .240 is a 100 gr. NPT. Not as fast, but terminal performance on chest shot WT's and Pronghorns is much better, usually knocks their nose in the dirt. And, in that gun the NPT shoots half MOA or better, shot one group of 1.7" at 400 yds. Can't say I can do it again, but the gun did it once...

DF

Note entrance wound and chest exit wound.

No bullet is too fast.

True in principle.

But sometimes common sense needs to step in, selecting the most appropriate combo.

Almost everything is a compromise one way or the other.

You really don't know how a load is going to work until you try it.

DF

Federal Premium Trophy Bonded bullets are now available other than in loaded ammo. I just bought 160's for my 7RM.

Maybe they'll offer them in .257. Those should work well in the Wby.

www.midwayusa.com/product/369466/fe...grain-polymer-tipped-boat-tail-box-of-50

DF

www.midwayusa.com/s?userSearchQuery=Federal+Premium+Trophy+bonded+bullets&userItemsPerPage=48

.308, .270. 7mm, no .257 (yet).

DF

I don't have a .257 (yet) but I shoot 150 gr. TSX out of my 99 in .308. I have yet to recover a Barnes from 50 to 150 yard. The last one at 50 yards was 1/4ing towards me right to left. Hit him in his left chest and exited behind his right leg/shoulder. He stood there like nothing happened. I almost put another round in him but waited. He took one step, then another, and finally what seemed like forever he dropped and did the death kick/spin. Went through both lungs and hit the heart. From what I can remember the exit wound was a perfect 4 pedal cross. I have not had any bad luck with the Barnes 150 TSX. That is all I shoot for deer or elk in my .308. Some areas in AZ are lead free so that is my choice of bullet for all of AZ.

I had a similar result this year with180 grain Barnes TTSX from a 300 Weatherby on a cow in brush to mid chest, I put 2 in her at 280 yards, didn't find a blood trail but she climbed up to the ridge after a small circle and 1/2 an hour again behind brush facing the opposite way so the 3rd round through the same area fron 75 yards finally dropped her. The bullet placement was "in between" spine and lungs and the rounds were probably close to 3,000 fps or greater for the last shot.

You could cover all 3 holes with a cigarette pack but they were all too high in the chest to be effective compared to spine or lower lung. My fault for not putting one through the neck instead. The TTSX works best when you catch a rib going in and break the shoulder on exiting. With better placement 2 years ago a larger cow did a back flip and died on the spot with a shot from 550 yards. I prefer the Barnes slip through effect over the NBT blow up on the outside ribs but next time I'll probably take the neck shot rather than high chest, I got lucky retrieving that cow.

My buddy shot a 370 bull with a 257 wby mag with 100 gr. TSX at about 60 yards. 1 shot bull walked 20 yards and tipped over. Got both lungs and they were soup. Hard to believe he stayed on his feet for 20 yards even. No such thing as too fast with a mono bullet. YMMV

I shoot a 25 WSM. While on a New Zealand hunt I shot 36 head of game with the 100 TSX, at 3450 fps, a very accurate bullet in my rifle. The bullets performed poorer than I expected with pencil size exits. My hunting partner used an 06 and good old 150 grain Remington Core-loks and blew out big exit holes and all his game died right there. My best bull Tahr required five hits and finally died hanging off a cliff by a horn requiring a helicopter retrieval. I spoke with Barnes and they requested I send a sample of my bullets, which I did provide, but I didn't receive a reply. I switched to the old cup and core Hornady 100 grain Interlock and see much better performance and even better accuracy, Hornady has stopped making this bullet.

The 140 gr TSX worked great in my .284 on several deer and elk. The difference between the hole in the tip of the 25 caliber bullet is noticeably smaller than a 7 mm sample. I see the hole in the 25 caliber TTSX is even larger than my 7 mm TSX sample. I suspect Barnes addressed the failure to expand issue by increasing the hole size in the tip of the bullet.

Boise: Is you 25WSM the super short WSSM, or the 270WSM necked down to 25? thanks

Tex, mine is a necked down 270 WSM. Pac Nor barreled Remington TI.

Have you tried the 115-120s in it? If so, what kind of MVs are you seeing?

After disappointing results with the older Barnes 'X' bullets, I could never bring myself to use TSX on game. The (now obsolete but I still have some) MRX addressed my concerns by adding the poly tip to help initiate expansion. I've used MRX and TTSX since 2006, as have members of my hunting group, with no drama. Half the animals we've shot have gone straight down, most of the rest have taken just a few steps. One cow I shot went 25 yards but I can't think of any other animal that went nearly that far.

As a result of consistently good results and great accuracy, the tipped Barnes bullets are the ones we use most.

For the record... There is no empty space in the deer's chest. Lungs go all the way the the spine. Also for the record... If you run a high speed rifle bullet through a deer an inch or two below the spine 9 times out of ten you will break the descending aorta which will bleed a deer out in very short order, faster than a blown up heart will empty the body of blood.

Miles: FWIW, he was discussing elk, not deer.

Deer as in deer species. Although all ungulates are the same. No empty space in the chest. Any empty space (air filled space inside the chest) severely compromises lung function.

I shoot barnes 100 gr tsx at 3500 ft/sec with 257 Weatherby and no trouble killing elk. 10 or 12 hit though lungs dead after a few steps.

There is NOT a "gap" between the spine and lungs. There is a mechanical lock between the lungs and chest wall, all the way around the spine. If there was a gap... that would be called a pneumothorax and the animal would die. The issue, and why people believe that there is a "no mans land" is because the pine runs very deep in the body, and what people see as the "spine" is actually the spinous process. The spinous process extends 6+ inches up from the top of the spine. As well, hits tobthe high lungs are not as damaging as lower hits.




.

Miles is correct. As above, there is no dead space.





No mammal has a "gap".

Well, my experience with the TSX's and TTSX's has been quite good in three cartridges -- a 284 Win, a 30/06, and a 375 H&H.

The later two shot the TSXs well and with them I took about ten head of plains game with eleven shots, the extra on a gemsbok that I placed the first one a little high on. With the '06, it was the 165-grain at 2850 fps and it was the 270 TSX at ~ 2700 fps in the 375.. That bullet in the 375 shot less than .5 MOA with 3 shots at a hundred on occasion. But all these cases with the exception of the one mentioned were mid-chest hits and pass-throughs.

The 140-gr TTSX at 3150 out of the 284 has taken a bear, a large mule deer, and a large whitetail at right at 500 yards. This latter was with the 150-gr TTSX at 2900 and showed an admittedly small exit hole but with the bullet transgressing the heart, the buck didn't make 20 yards. These were with three shots and this load (140 grain) would go into slightly more than .6 MOA at 400 yards if I didn't breath and global warming had momentarily slowed.

I was looking for the TBBCs again and it's nice to see them partially available again though in the 284, I'd choose a 140-gr bullet which I don't see. It'll be interesting to see how accurate they are again as bi-metal or -alloy bullets are harder to get to be accurate due to concentricity.

George, Midway has these in 140 gr. 7mm. Is this the bullet used in TBBC Fed.ammo?

www.midwayusa.com/s?userSearchQuery=Federal+tipped+trophy+bonded+bullets&userItemsPerPage=48

DF

As to the Gap Theory, while there is one in creationism, it's missing in animals. And, no, a one-lung pneumothorax will not necessarily kill and certainly not quickly on a wild, vital big game animal suddenly thrown into flight mode. Humans can walk around with partial pneumo's though they generally don't feel too well. While a hemothorax is a more sure thing depending on how large and the volume of blood lost. A pneumo- without a hemo- on a shot big game animal would be quite unlikely.

The cupola of the lungs run somewhat parallel with the lower edge of the spinal column as far as they go generally and the aorta runs parallel in there too with some anatomical variation in some hoofed animals. Gemsbok have the very long spinous processes that give them the very deep chest look. While arrows and bullets can and do slip through various solid body areas from time to time and may be lost, I'm convinced most, most, of these animals expire.

Yeah, I'm quite sure it is and thanks; I'm going to give those a try.

I just got a box of 160's to try in my 8 twist Brux 7RM.

Will try RL-26.

DF

I can't imagine generally that a TTSX could go too fast unless there were some degree of production error that caused the mono- to be too hard and brittle in which it might break up on bone, or just way too soft. And if with regular TTSXs, petals fly off for whatever reason they become secondary, diverging mssiles, causing potentially even more damage than just the primary path damage an intact bullet would cause.

It never hurt Nosler Partitions to lose roughly 40% (+\-) of their weight en route through whatever beastie they meet. In fact they were made that way.

I don't worry about TTSX/TSX losing petals.

Check out Cutting Edge Raptor bullets; their monos are designed to shed petals as shrapnel flying out at 360*s from the projectile as it hits flesh. I've have excellent results (accuracy and terminal performance) with them in .308 and .375 H&H.

It seems no two shots are exactly the same, shoot enough and you'll see variations from the "norm".

While monos don't have a velecity ceiling, one needs to be aware of what terminal performance is/could be at various velocities.

As I've posted before, matching bullet design and velocity for optimal results is more art than science.

DF

Just curious- Has anyone seen the Nosler 120 grain Partition fail at 257 Weatherby velocities?

No. I've seen animals shot with that combination from pronghorns at 300+ yards to a 6x6 bull elk at 100. However, the elk was shot broadside, closely behind the shoulder bones, so the bullet only hit flesh and ribs. It exited, leaving a pretty good-sized hole--which was not needed because the bull took off down the mountainside and soon ran head-on into a big conifer, obviously dead on its feet.

Velocity with a monolithic is beneficial. Sectional density for close range is my concern. If it is above a .20 u should be good 2 go.

S.D., 80 gr. .257 TTSX is .173.

Check this observation about the 80 gr. TTSX at 3,900+ fps out of a .257 Wby being less than effective for a cull hunt.

www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/12175458

Waiting on Model70guy to respond to the question of why he considers this load to be a "POS".

I think I know the answer, but will see what he says.

DF


Edited to add, the 80 gr. 6mm TTSX/3600+ fps load that I had issues with, that bullet has an S.D. of .194.

So, maybe the .20+ S.D. value may have terminal performance importance with small TTSX/TSX bullets pushed at very high speeds. More info needed.

Here's Model70guy's response on another thread.

www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/12177399

DF

Sorry, but the only way I'd believe the 80s to be trash is by my own results.

The need for DRT crap is getting really to be a sore subject with me. You either hit CNS or you don't. Thats the ONLY way to be 100 percent of DRT.

That said, I have a box of 80 ttsx but the 100 ttsx have worked so well for us I have not tried the 80s yet. And no, not even with the 257 wtby and the fast 100 ttsx, do we get DRT shots unless we hit CNS. But they generally don't go very far.

I wonder how these folks would have dealt with patched round balls to hunt with.... or archery gear...

I think you fellas can hunt with whatever lets you sleep at night, but in my opinion there is no better bullet than a Barnes TTSX, especially launched from a fast 7mm or .300 magnum. I don't use .257's for elk and never will. I'm a huge fan of the .257 Roberts and .250-3000 Savage, just not for elk sized beasts. Happy Trails

I like Barnes bullets.

But I don't hunt with very small monos driven at mega speeds. Just me.

I posted earlier, the 100 TTSX at 3,250 fps out of my .257R over H100V is a killer and I like it. It works.

With most any bullet, there is an optimal range where it seems to function best; I try to find that balance.

DF

100 % sure is a high standard. I have absolutely no problem believing you don't get DRTs with the .257 'bee and the 100 grain TSX without CNS hits or very solid bone contact. No argument there, I'd be surprised if you did. It doesn't get much better with the bigger ones either.

Where we probably differ is that I know for a fact that I can get instant drops by using softer, lead-core frangible bullets at high speeds that don't hit the spine or brain. I've done it literally hundreds of times. Through the shoulder, frontals, and on a good day pure lung shots. It isn't a 100% thing but it is a more often than not thing.

There is statistical evidence that WT's travel about half the distance hit with softer bullets than those hit with harder, premium bullets. Observed were South Carolina whitetails, over 400 kills spanning a number of years. I've posted this study several times, thought it was a good time for a review.

DG animals, larger animals are not included, just Southern WTs.

http://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/deer/articlegad.html

DF

By your own admission you get some pleasure from trailing game. The problem is this is not a great thing in many locals and its never good for meat quality.

It's not too much to ask that a bullet kill game swiftly when the shot is placed right. With TSX and TTSX bullets this a real crap shoot and they many times do not provide for much of a blood trail, which would hurt your "tracking" efforts.

Mostly correct, but there is no mechanical lock between lungs and bone of any kind. Collapsed lungs are sometimes treated by creating one surgically.

George, you probably know ungulates are different from humans in the pleura... we have one for each lung (essentially) but ungulates have both lungs in a single. An ungulate with a single pneumothorax will likely find it doubling soon (er) than a human.

I am sure you have heard of bullets passing through the chest without tearing lung tissue, the source of the gap theory. Arrows are very unlikely to do so.

All I know is that an adequate sized entry hole and a good sized exit wound coupled with internal damage through the vitals forward of the diaphragm usually lets the air out of them pretty quickly. I am constantly amazed at tales of double lung and/or heart shot ungulates running hundreds and hundreds of yards. I have to believe most were due to sorry shooting, but that's just me.

A quarter horse can cover 440 yards in the low 20s, carrying a rider and live through it. A bored person can hold their breath longer than that. Bleeding to death takes time.


A fatally hit animal can cover a lot of ground in the time it takes to say "I think you hit him pretty good, I think it'll be OK".

Sore subject or not, I've shot plenty of deer square in both shoulders, not hitting spine, and 100% have dropped on the spot. That's not to say they were dead when they hit the ground. Some kicking or lifting head for a second or something. But over 1/2 of the deer I've shot through both shoulders, dropped on the spot, never got back up. Those were probably got hit in the spine by bullet or bone.

I will also say, all of the deer I've shot, not through both shoulders that ran, were also dead when I found them. None required another shot.

Several shot in one shoulder, ran 20-100 yards. One particularly large bodied buck was shot below the shoulder, but in the leg bone, hitting heart, then out other leg/elbow, ran about 30 yards.

I have had one doe that still baffles me on how long she lived. Shot behind the shoulder, in a perfect lung shot from a .257 R with 117gr Core-lokts. She was standing perfectly broadside, totally standing still, at 40 yards. At the shot she turned 180* and stood still again. I thought I missed. So, I shot again. At the shot, she turned 90* and trotted at me, but I knew I hit her with that shot. She saw me, veered around me, and stood. Stiffened up, and tipped over. She was still trying to get up, so I shot her in the neck.

When I got up to her, there were 4 holes behind her shoulders. 2 in, 2 out. Perfect lung shots, both of them. Sometimes, they just do weird stuff!

Exactly!

Great analogy M70Guy!