I recently read a very nice posting by Dogzapper on the .308 and Elk.

I would like to start a discussion on the .308 family and Elk hunting. I think several, including DZ clearly showed that the .308 is a wonderful Elk round. I have also heard that the .358 is a good round for elk as well, but going down is really where the discussion starts.

When I think about bullet weights, velocity, energy and bullet geometry, etc.....you know....the science of our sport, I wonder what is appropriate for elk. Honestly and personally, I think the .24 caliber is just too small for elk, but I have talked to and read many a posting where dozens of fellas have easily killed bulls with the 'old 25-06 and the 257 Bob. My father shot 4 bulls with his 264 WinMag. Of course, many a field hunter, has killed with the 270.

So, I am wondering where opinions lay when considering the 7mm-08 and the 260 Rem for Elk? The reason I ask....I will be outfitting my 17 year old daughter and my 13 year old daughter this summer for a Fall Elk hunt. My 17 year old, has shot her brother's 270's and just hates the recoil.

Do you guys think the 260 Rem would be 'acceptable' Elk medicine, especially if the girl is well trained to keep her shots at 200 yards and 'dead-eye- accuracy?

Go with the 7-08.Much better bullet choices for the 7.

As to the 260, a well placed 140 Partition that started out at 2700 fps would do the deed.

First, congrats on raising a couple young ladies that want to go hunting with their dad.

I agree completely on the .243 for elk � the bullets are too light and don�t deliver enough energy far enough down range. And the best of the best bullets (A-Frame, Trophy Bonded and North Fork, IMHO) are not even available. I�d go with a Sirocco II or maybe a TSX if I went hunting with a .243. But I wouldn�t go there for elk.

The .257 Roberts is not the best choice, but not a horrible one, either. The heaviest bullets are still a bit light for elk to suit me, but my 22� Ruger pushes 120g A-Frames to 2947fps and the 115g TSX to 3013fps using +P brass and hand loads. Recoil is mild (14 foot-pounds) even with the 120g bullets, and it will deliver 1500 foot-pounds of energy out to 250 yards with the A-Frame and 290 yards with the TSX. A 24� .25-06 will reach a bit further without adding excessive weight or recoil. If your daughters shoot well, I would consider a .25.

A .260 Remington will deliver 1500fpe out to 370 yards with a 140g Partition at a cost of 15.6 foot-pounds recoil in a 7.5 pound rifle. A 7mm-08 will reach out to 315 yards under the same conditions. Between the two its hard to go wrong.

First off the 243 works just fine on elk. I know I've done it many times, I've seen it work moretimes than that. Seems to me most of the folks that say it won't , or shouldn't be used on elk, quite frankly lack experience, or flat out ignore what has been done with that cartridge in years past.
Now with that said, I'ld rather see someone carrying a 260 or 7-08, as the recoil is minimal, and good bullets are easy and plentiful.
The 308 itself isn't a hard kicker, and loaded with 150-165 gr bullets of conventional design will take elk quite well.

If someone wanted to hunt something elk-sized and was intimidated by recoil, I've always felt I'd rather download a 308Win in an 8-9lb rifle, rather than drop caliber. A 150gr Partition at 2500fps or a premium 130gr at 2700fps won't bounce off will it? I feel the 308Win is the perfect answer.
Cheers...
Con

My experience with the .243 and elk is secondhand, having seen more elk wounded with a .243 than any other caliber. Largest bull I have ever seen in the wild was putting distance between itself and the young hunter that shot it, and showing no signs of slowing down after a mile. My buddy and I talked to the father of the hunter, who turned out to be using a .243. Just one example.

I have a good friend who used to guide for elk in Colorado and has seen hundreds of elk taken. His rifle was a Savage 99 in .243. He will be the first to tell you, as he has me, that just about anything is a better choice.

There is no escaping the realities of the .243Win. On a good day and with carefully selected loads it will push 1500 foot-pounds of energy out to about 180 yards � most loads fall below that at around 150 yards. The selection of premium bullets in .243 caliber is poor when compared to the .25�s and larger. Scirocco II�s (90g), TSX�s (85g), Accubond (80g) and Partitions (90g and 100g) are all good bullets but they are still lightweights. And there are no .243 Trophy Bonded, A-Frame or North Fork bullets available, just to name a few.

CAN a .243 Win take elk? Sure. So can a .22-250 and a .22LR. In Colorado a .243 Win is the legal minimum for elk but a 140g 6.5mm is a much better starting place, and even that is lighter than I prefer.

Given the other options available the .243 Win is simply not the best choice for elk, which is all I�m saying. Don�t know of anyone that thinks it is.

The min cal in Colorado for big game is 6mm for elk need a min 85gr bullet and have an impact energy (at 100yds) of 1,000 pounds. You can always install a recoil reducer to help tame felt recoil for kids that way you have a better selection of calibers instead of picking a rifle based on low recoil. Rem has a pretty good selection of youth model that would work not sure about the other manufactors. Well good luck.

Whatever caliber you get your girls install a Simm recoil pad on it and they will really appreciate it. And so will you as they will want to shoot more.

Not sure if you hand load, but what I did for my 9yr old was to get very light bullets (what ever caliber you decide) and make up some reduced loads. The recoil is minimal at the range. Make sure you use good ear muffs as the muzzle blast/sound will still be there. When hunting use the full power loads without letting on there is a difference from the range loads. When shooting at an animal, your young hunter won't know the difference.

Two other things that will help.
1. A stock that fits. Get the LOP right.
2. Install a good recoil pad - Pach Decel or Simms.

RH

[quote]]

My experience with the .243 and elk is secondhand, having seen more elk wounded with a .243 than any other caliber. Largest bull I have ever seen in the wild was putting distance between itself and the young hunter that shot it, and showing no signs of slowing down after a mile. My buddy and I talked to the father of the hunter, who turned out to be using a .243. Just one example.
[/quote
Well first we need to figure out which of your statements is true there, its either second hand or not. And just where was this supposed bull supposedly hit? I guess your expereince and mine are totally backwards, on account of some of the nastiest blood trails and the like I have been on were after the belted mag that some intrepid nimrod used didn't work quite like the hype says its supposed to.

No the 243 probably isn't the ideal elk cartridge, but it work anddoesn't need premium bullets, just as none of the non magnum cartridges don't need them.
Wilderness what ever cartridge you end up getting for your girls just please take the time to make sure the stock fits them , so the recoil won't get to be a problem. My pick of the litter would be the 7-08, I don't have any experience with it, but I do the 7x57, and if paper ballistics are to be worhsipped , then the 708 ought to work like a champ on anything that walks this continent.

I personally like 156-160gr. projectiles out of a 6.5mm for most everything. I've only shot one elk with the above combination, but he made it less then 20 yards after the shot and was a large bodied 6x at more then 250 yards. I also find the rifle recoil more pleasent shooting the 160 ~2400fps then I do the 140s closer to 2600, but neither are at all challenging to overcome. I personally prefer the 6.5x55, but see the .260 as the same animal.

I'm an easterner who gets out West every other year to hunt elk. After spending $5000 plus on tags, guide fees, airline tickets and the like, I would not remotely consider anything lighter than a 300 Magnum. Yes, under ideal conditions elk can be taken with lesser calibers right down to the .243 Winchester.

I think any elk caliber discussion begins and ends with the following question;

Do you have enough gun under less than ideal conditions?

Consider:
What if the elk is not broadside?

You are unable to close to less than 300 yards?

For those of you who live out west, you merely hunt another day.

But on the last day of a trip I have so much invested in my personal minimum for elk is the .300 Weatherby Magnum.

And that's what I killed my Montana elk with last November. At 400 yards. Quartering Away.

I could only endorse a 243 on elk if used in an open meadow where one could observe the critter after the shot, but only then with a premium of some sort. The 6mm's don't leave much if any blood and will generally walk off after being hit. I'm not saying a 243 can't be used to knock-off elk but I believe it's, if not unethical, pretty stupid to use one in the timber.

On a friends ranch I watched his 16 year old son shoot a cow at 150 yards with a 100 gr. Hornaday. He hit her broadside through the lungs. She didn't react, but trotted off with another cow. 600 yards later she still hadn't tipped... she was dropped with a 7mm Wby.

The 6.5x55 has a great worldwide reputation and the .260 is basically a ballistic twin. 6.5 mm bullets of good construction and @ moderate velocity are known as great penetrators.

Assuming that you don't have any immediate plans to take them on $5,000 hunts or to bang away at the azz end of any Elk out at 376.72 yds, I can't see any problems with your plan for the 260 as "starter" rifles for your girls.

BTW: I can only imagine how proud you will be when one or the other gets her first.

JimF

A 260 loaded with a 125 grain Partition at 2,950 will do anything a 270 could do loaded with 130 grain factory ammo.
I dont think an elk would know the difference.

That load would be my bottom line.

Yeah, totally agree about the 260. It would be at the bottom rung of my list as a good general purpose elk round. Loaded with a 130 TSX or 125 Partition I believe it'd be a much better round than any 243/6mm. A 7mm-08 would be even better.

Brad those Montana elk must be tuff mofo's. Last elk I saw shot with a 243 the old guy shooting the Ruger 77 loaded with PMC factory loads hit a damn good 6x6 at 210 yds the first shot went in the pocket , the second right beside it, and the 3rd one missed onaccount the bull bit the dirt just as the sear broke. He went 30 yds maybe, the bloodtrail coming from his chest wounds and spouting out of his nose could of been followed by a blind girl in a wheelchair.
Last elk I shot in the timber with a 243 was about 60 yds, hit her in the back of the head, she flipped clear over come down on her back wedged between to jackpines. Had a dickens of a time getting her out of that so I could gut her.
Like I've said before the 243 will work and work well, but there's cartridges that can be used that folks (who just don't know any better) won't bad mouth so darn much and cause doubt in a young shooters mind.

Don't use the 260 unless you have a decent sized freezer and the money to have her elk mounted cause if she holds her shot to 200 yards like you said you is gonna be eatin' some elk. The 260 will work fine. Like others have said use premium bullets. I am partial to the Barnes X bullets myself. If you handload all the more the better to help tame recoil. You can load it down.

SU35 mentioned a load that would be evry effective but I think that given your original goals it is going down the wrong path.

Remember the goal is to make her an effective hunter and above all comfortable with the rifle. (AND) she hates the recoil of a .270. Given that scenario check this out.......

Std. 270 win ballistics would deliver about 18 ft lbs of recoil in an 8 lb rifle.

SU35's suggested load would be very effective, but would still deliver about 14 ft lb in an 8 lb rifle. (keep in mind that many 260's will be lighter than this)

So....I'd suggest a 140 gr loaded to about 2500 fps with a fairly fast powder.

Advantages...................

About 10 ft lbs of recoil in an 8lb rifle
Very mild muzzle blast.
Those torpedolike 140's will pentrate like crazy.
At this velocity, absolutely no need for a premium bullet.
PBR 200-225 depending upon your zero.

No, they won't bounce off at this low velocity.......honest!!..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JimF

Ranch13 �

�Secondhand� was probably a poor choice of words. What I meant was I did not do the shooting and in several cases only talked to the shooter but did not see the elk.

Don�t know exactly where the bull I mentioned was hit, but it appeared to be on the right side, perhaps along the ribs or perhaps the rear quarter. Rightly or wrongly we assumed a quartering away shot. Placement may have left something to be desired or if it was indeed a quartering away shot placement may have been good but penetration poor. Another bull was shot with a .243 in the left front leg. Don�t know if the bullet made it though the leg bone to the chest cavity, as it did with the last elk I shot, but the two hunters responsible for shooting it gave up finding it after two days of trying. My buddy and I saw lots of fresh blood in the snow, all along a 1 mile ridgeline over a 3 day period, never did find the elk (although we were not hunting for it, either). Another time a young hunter with a .243 took a broadside shot at an elk that was in a tightly packed herd, no more than 100 yards away. The herd ran at the sound of the shot, including the one that was hit. It was not recovered. I could go on...

I would disagree about the .243 needing premium bullets. On elk I consider them essential as the .243 shoots light bullets and typically pushes them to 3100-3200fps. At that velocity a standard cup and core bullet can easily act like a varmint bullet � and they often do, creating horrible but shallow wounds. If they penetrate to the lungs they can cause spectacular results, but they don�t always penetrate. One thing about my 7mm Mag and 160g bullets, penetration has never been a problem.

Placement is obviously a key component in taking elk cleanly. But even with proper placement, I find the .243 lacking as an elk cartridge, kind of like using a tack hammer for framing work. IMHO, a .243 is best used for elk when in the hands of a competent and experienced rifleman who will choose the shots carefully, not the hands of a novice.

At least we agree that the 7mm-08 is a better choice.

Ranch13 �

No one has said an elk can�t be taken with a .243, only that there are better choices. Much better, IMHO.

Yes, it can work well and it can fail spectacularly, too. It is certainly not the cartridge I would want in my hands for a quartering away shot.

Frankly, if I cause doubt in a young shooter�s mind and the shooter chooses a .260 or 7mm-08 with 140g bullets for elk as a result, I will consider that I have done them a good service.

Coyote I sort of remember reading somewhere you started your elk hunting career in the 1980's. By the time you started I had personally killed a dozen elk with the 243, my folks had both been using the cartridge since 1956. No problems killing elk in or out of the timber, quartering away, long or short range.
On another thread where you was blathering on about another cartridge you have no experience with you mentioned the anticipated use of the 30-30. Next time you dive into ballistics tables look carefully you may be surprised to learn the 243 with a 100 gr bullet carriess more fpe at 300 yds than the 30-30 does at 100.
Premium bullets are fine if they give a person confidence, but I've seen more than 100 elk taken, and very few of them with premiums. I also have come to notice that there is very little difference in reaction by the hit animal, doesn't matter whether it was a 243 or a 375 HH. I was totally and completely dissapointed in the 375, 219 yds quartering away 270 gr bullett went thru the lungs and lodged in the leg of the off side. Had that elk not of been in the clear we might not of found it as it travled about 100 yds from the hit, and there was not 1 drop of blood on the outside of it.
I've seen elk with blood spooshing out the rib cage after being hit by the beloved belted mags cover over a mile, and not be found.
It's all about bullet placement and preformance, and a bit of luck with a calm animal.
Any of the 308 family cartridges are good choices for Wilderness's daughters, provided the gun fits them, the barrel isn't to short so that muzzle blast affects them, and they get sufficient trigger time to be good shots.

Try shooting a heavier bullet slower with the 243 bullets expand very rapidly but at slower velocities they penetrate deeper and don't over expand. I don't think you should use that small of a caliber on elk. I would say the smallest 25/06 or a 270. I use a 30 cal in either 308 or 300 win mag. 165 grain bullets work nice.

A 7mm-08 is the smallest I would go but a .308 would be better.

The source of the original question was whether a 260 would be a good starter Elk gun for the girls for whom recoil is a significant issue. Consider the following..............

243--100 gr/3000 fps/45 gr powder/8 lb rifle = 11 ft lb recoil
260--140 gr/2500 fps/35 gr powder/8 lb rifle = 10 ft lb recoil

Without doubt, a 243 (can) make an effective Elk gun. There are however, some risks involved. I know for dang sure which of the above loads I would prefer to bang an Elk with.

JimF

I tried to stay out of this. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />My opinion only,Is a .243 is a very poor choice for Elk..Now before anyone jumps down my throat..Yes,I have seen it used on Elk several times with my own eyes..Not stories...It will kill Elk and so will the 22-250 but there are choices and the 243 for Elk is a poor one.

I have seen a huge difference in immediate effects on Elk from the .270 and .300 Win Mag.My early years was totally .270 for all my hunting..The .270 works with a good bullet but not as good as a .300 Win Mag.

A very good friend in McCall Idaho,uses a 30-30 every year for Elk and gets his share within the distance of the 30-30.The key is a 243 with a good bullet in the hands of an "experienced hunter" is quite different than a 243 in the hands of a first timer or newbie to Elk hunting.The 25-06 is very effective in the hands of my old time neighbor whom all but lives with the Elk year around and knows them very well.

Personally,with my kids including my daughters,I let them shoot all my rifles and let them choose the one they liked the best and recoil wasn't the choosing factor for the girls in the ones they chose.Fit..Just like there clothes..Has to fit right. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Jayco

I have absolutely no experience with .243's on elk, but I do have a lot with .243's / 6mm's on whitetails. In my experience a 7mm-08 / 7X57 makes a difference on deer over the .243 / 6mm. It's got to make a bigger difference on elk. I'm sure a .243 will kill any elk on Earth, but I'd never use one based on what I've seen with deer.

Besides locals get to hunt more and know the land better! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Easy now Ranch, I'm just funnin' ya! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

No problems, eh? Then I guess your experience is rather unique. Many people have found that even with good placement a .243 failed to perform on elk as desired.

One thing about people, they can learn from the experience of others. But you�re suggesting 20+ years of hunting elk and talking to other hunters, guides, DOW personnel and the meat processors, let alone all the reading I have done during that period, isn�t enough to learn a thing or two? Right. Even you have stated that a 7mm-08 is a better choice for elk, but why would that be if there is �No problems killing elk� with a .243?


�Blathering�? Ad hominem attacks will not advance either your argument or your credibility.

It�s quite true that I have no personal experience shooting big game with a .30-30. (Or a lot of other cartridges for that matter, including my .257 Roberts, .308 Win and .300 Win Mag.) But every elk I�ve seen shot with a .30-30 was dead very quickly, something I cannot say for all of them I have seen shot with a .243.

Energy alone is not a good predictor of terminal performance. Let�s take the WW .243Win 95g Ballistic Silvertip load because it has the most retained energy at 300 yards of any factory load I�ve looked at. Muzzle velocity is claimed at 3100fps. At 100 yards, the retained energy is 1719fpe and at 300 yards it is 1225fpe. If energy alone is a good predictor of terminal results, here are a few equivalent loads:

100 yard energy
1719fpe = .243W, 95g @ 2584fps
1720fpe = .224�, 40g @ 4400fps
1726fpe = .17�, 20g @ 6236fps
1726fpe = .17�, 5.4g Steel BB @ 12,000fps

300 yard energy
1225fpe = .243W, 95g @ 2410fps
1223fpe = .224�, 40g @ 3710fps
1224fpe = .17�, 20g @ 5250fps
1223fpe = .17�, 5.4g Steel BB @ 10,100fps

Now I don�t know about you, but I wouldn�t hunt elk with a .17 even if those velocities were obtainable. Nor would I hunt elk with anything in .224�.

Unfortunately, energy alone is NOT a good predictor of terminal effects. Placement, of course, is critical � but bullet diameter, initial bullet weight and bullet construction play important roles. Many intelligent people feel that momentum is a better predictor of penetration than energy. Using the same Winchester .243 load as above and the Winchester .30-30 170g SilverTip load (2200fps at the muzzle), relative momentum can be compared by multiplying bullet weight by velocity and dividing by 1000 (to make the result more readable). Rounding to the nearest tenth:

326.4 = .30-30, 170g @ 1920fps (100 yards)
245.5 = .243W, 95g @ 2584fps (100 yards)

244.6 = .30-30, 170g @ 1439fps (300 yards)
229.0 = .243W, 95g @ 2410fps (300 yards)

As you can see, using relative momentum as a yardstick, the .30-30 delivers at 300 yards what the .243 Win delivers at 100. Not that this fact makes the .30-30 a good 300 yard elk cartridge anymore than does the fact that my 170g handloads deliver as much energy at 340 yards as my .44 Mag revolver does with Speer 240g JSP�s at 50 yards or Speer 300g UCSP�s at 30 yards.


You claim �the 243 with a 100 gr bullet carriess more fpe at 300 yds than the 30-30 does at 100�. Not in factory ammo it doesn�t. Here is the data for the Big Three:

.243 Win, 300 yard energy
1139fpe = Federal 100g Partition, 2960fps MV
1120fpe = Remington 100g Core-Lokt Ultra, 2960fps MV
1089fpe = Remington 100g Pointed Soft Point, 2960fps MV
1089fpe = Winchester 100g Power Point, 2960fps MV

.30-30, 100 yard energy
1392fpe = Winchester 170g SilverTip, 2200fps MV
1356fpe = Winchester 150g Power Point, 2390fps MV
1355fpe = Remington 170g Core-Lokt, 2200fps MV
1354fpe = Federal 170g Partition, 22�fps MV

Or try my .30-30 handload, a 170g Speer @ 2333fps MV:
1629fpe = 100 yards
1274fpe = 200 yards
990fpe = 300 yards

Perhaps it�s you that needs to dive into the ballistic tables and �look carefully�.


Premium bullets do more than give a person confidence � depending on the bullet they actually perform better under a wider range of conditions than do standard bullets. While its true that most any bullet will work most of the time, my concern is with the small remainder when Murphy steps in.

I�m going to suggest you have no idea how that elk would have reacted to being hit with a .243 and will further suggest it might well have traveled considerably further than 100 yards � and quite possibly never have been recovered. All anyone knows is that in that particular case the .375 did the job.



�Beloved belted mags�? For myself, I don�t care if a cartridge has a belt or not, but I do have distinct preferences when it comes to elk cartridges. As a general minimum, I like premium bullets with a Sectional Density of about .280, a bullet weight of 140-150g, with a velocity of about 2800fps. That puts the various 6.5mm cartridges at the bottom of the list.

If I was going to hunt elk with a .243 it would be loaded with the very best bullets I could get � Scirocco II, Partition or TSX � and I would limit my shots to 200 yards and broadside with a top of the heart aim. With a .30-30 I would use 170g bullets and feel much more comfortable taking more difficult shots but would still limit my shots to 200 yards or less. If putting meat on the table was my primary goal, I would leave both guns home and take my �beloved� 7mm Rem or .300 Win belted magnums.

Well, Whatever she decides to use hopefully she'll be able to practice well with it out to 200 yards and hit consistently the size of a one pound coffee can shooting in a field position.
I don't think the .243 is good elk medicine tho for a subsistence hunter far smaller bullets have been used...usually at archery distances.
The .260 is a good choice if you have the rifle already and shes enjoys shooting it.
140 grain bullets and a shot sistance of 200 yards should fill the freezer and put you to work on the field drssing, boning-butchering.
I like the 6,5x55 Swede for mid range elk killing... or the .300 Savage..Shot placement is always the key.jim

Coyote not suggesting anything, flat out saying that my nearly 50 years of first hand doing it experience trumps the snot out of your 20 years of second hand regurgitated bull spit.
2339 with 170's in a 30-30? common boy, that's where things start getting dicey in the 30-30 ai. I know I've got several years first hand with that as well.
Bottom line any of the 308 family or similar cartridges from 24 cal and up will do a fine job on elk. (and I do know a couple of fellers in Mt, that swear by the 22's )

Wasn't this thread about whether a 260 would be a nice mild starter Elk rifle for WH's two girls????

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JimF

JimF,

Everything turns into a pissing contest around here anymore.
It's getting a little old.

Kind of funny how it went from kids hunting to someone rewrite Colorado DOW laws as to what a min caliber should be for elk.

We could always talk about MK's next....grins

Mark D

Garn!..now I thot I'd kept pretty much to the original thread in my responses..:) jim

since were comparing data... I vote for the 358 win and the 338 federal as the best ELK cartridges based on the 308 win case,

358 win
250 grain bullet sighted in at 250 yards
launched at 2300fps

375yards -21.1 drop 1678 vel 1563 ftlbs


then read this
http://hunting.about.com/od/deerbiggame/a/338federal.htm

personally ID sellect the 358 win, simply because at equal pressure levels theres a very slight advantage to useing the larger bullet diameters expansion ratio, while its true the 338 dia. bullets have at least in theory a superior ballistic shape theres no practical advantage under field conditions untill at least 300 yards, and most ELK will be shot under that range where the heavy bullets of either cartridge useing bullets in the 225-250 grain range will work just fine

but ILL also point out that the standard 308 loaded with hornady 180-190 grain bullets has proven to be fully able to kill elk effectively from evidence in our ELK camp, and from several guys I handload for <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
while the BLRs in 358 win are popular the 308 BLRS work almost as well

Thank you Jim....but, I fully understand that when a posting is made with the question of Elk and "minimum" loads....debate will explode......

I have no intention of putting a .243 in the hands of my little girl for an elk hunt. Goodness, I really don't want her to make a fine shot, only to find that we have to track an animal across two ranges.

For the .308 family, I think the .260 is minimum for Elk. I prefer the 7mm-08.....but the real question revolves around a load that will be comfortable for my girl and allow her the confidence to kill her bull.

Honestly, I have the guy down at the gun shop looking to order a 7mm-08 in a Stevens 200. This should be a good starter for a new hunter. Also, I think the 120's at the range will be dandy for her to get use to the gun without 'pounding' her into submission and creating fear of the recoil.

I really like the idea of the .260, as my pop was a huge 264WinMag fan and I know the exceptional performance of that caliber....sectional density, etc. But, let's cut this one to the chase...this gun is not for me...(although I would like it to be), but it is for a 17 year old, 120 lb....coming senior in high school...daughter.

Another question I would pose that is outside of the discussion of of the .308 family is.....would the 25'06 be a good solution to compete with the .260 and the 7mm-08? For that matter, would the 25WSSM be a contender?

Wilderness the 25-06 had a good rep on elk for a long time, but for your daughter it might not be just the ticket, on account of it gets along better with 24-26 inch barrels, coupled with the long action the rifle might be awkward for her to handle. No experience with the 25 wssm , but looking at the ballistics tables, it should do well on elk.
Ps you get a rifle your daughter likes, and fits her well,give her plenty of good coaching and develope good shooting skills , the only thing you'll have to worry about when she cuts loose on an elk is how to get the thing out, even if it is a 243 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ranch13 �

Feel free to make it personal if you wish, but as I said before it doesn�t advance your argument or your credibility. Yes, your 50 years is longer than the 20+ I have hunted elk, but it doesn�t invalidate the things I�ve seen or learned through either first- or second-hand experience. Did you not learn anything in your first 20+ years?

The combined experience of the hunting public far outweighs your experience, just as yours outweighs mine. If the consensus was a .243 is a good elk cartridge you could expect many people to use them � but the fact is they are the exception rather than the rule.

My contention is the .243 is marginal for elk. Yes, it will work with well-placed shots, no, it is not the best choice when things go somewhat awry. Neither is the .30-30 for that matter. Here is what some others have to say about the two cartridges:

.243 Winchester
Nosler 5th: With the proper bullet it will dispatch everything form crows to deer sized game�, Richard Beebe, President of Redding, Inc.
Speer #12: �Although it has adequate power for game animals up to and including deer and antelope, it is definitely under-powered for elk, moose and caribou.�
Hornady 5th: �deer-sized game�
Barnes #3: The 85g and heavier X-type bullets are shown as suitable for elk.
Accurate #1: �varmint and deer-sized game�
Cartridges of the World #9: �up to and including deer and antelope�

Seems like Barnes it the only one that thinks the .243 Win is suitable for elk.

.30-30 Winchester
Nosler 5th: �the little 30 continues to do what it was designed for, taking deer and other game at medium range�, Sam Falada, author.
Speer #12: �The 170 grain Hot-Cor is the best choice for game up to medium-size deer, which is the effective limit of the cartridge.�
Hornady 5th: �For the deer hunter who hunt areas where 100-150 yard shots are the longest�
Barnes #3: The 150g XFN is shown as suitable for elk, with velocities up to 2282fps using a 20� barrel.
Accurate #1: �The yardstick by which all other deer cartridges are measured�
Cartridges of the World #9: �the standard American deer cartridge� and �the 170g Partition and the Barnes 150g XPF (sic) are the best choices for those who wish to tackle elk�

As with the .243, Barnes is the only manufacturer that thinks the .30-30 is suitable for elk, but Cartridges of the World seems to think so, too.

Here�s a quote from O�Connor, circa 1962. The �He� O�Connor refers to is himself:
�The world is full of good, open- country deer cartridges�the .30-06 with the 150-grain bullet, the .270 with the 130-grain, the .280 with the 125-grain, the 7mm Remington Magnum with the 150-grain, the .300 Savage and the .308 with the 150-grain. He has never shot a deer with the .243 but considers it entirely adequate with the 100-grain bullet. He bases this opinion on a good deal of use of the now-dying .257 Roberts on deer.�

What? No mention of elk for the .243? Nope.

O�Connor on the .30-30, from the same article:
�...it an excellent cartridge for this sort of thing...� (The �thing� he was referring to was �mule deer�.)

Elmer Keith disparaged the .270 Win as a �coyote rifle�. It is, of course, much more than that, but Keith liked the .33�s for elk. What would he have said about the .243 Win for elk?

Here�s Paco Kelly on the .30-30:

�Whelen stated the outside effective accuracy and power range of the 170 grain 30-30 bullet of the times was 180 yards! And believe me a good deal of game much larger than deer fell to the 30-30 over the early decades of the 20th century.�

�And yes the 150 grain Speer has the same configuration as the 130 grain pushing it close to 2450 fps with H322, H335, and Rel# 12 is no big problem. And if you want to elk hunt with your 30-30...not sure why you would want to...but this bullet does an excellent job. Getting 2300 fps with the 170 grainers is no trick...but the 125/130/150 grain bullets are such performers and the down range ballistics so good...why bother with the 170s.�

Would I recommend a .243 Win for elk? No, it�s too marginal. And that�s not just my opinion but the opinion of many experienced hunters.



For the .30-30 and 170g bullets:

2227fps, 34,700 CUP, Hodgdon Annual Manual, 2004
2256fps, 38,000 CUP, Lyman 48th
2330fps, 40,500 PSI, Alliant Reloader�s Guide 2002

Of course, there�s the new Hornady LeverEvolution ammo for the .30-30 for those that don�t reload � 160g at 2400fps. At 200 yards it still carries over 1300fpe.

You might be interested to know that the Marlin part numbers for the Marlin 336 (.30-30), .336ER (.356Win) and 375 (.375 Win) receivers are the same. But the 356Win and 375Win have SAAMI pressures of 52,000 CUP, not 38,000 CUP like the .30-30. �Dicey� at 2333fps? Not really.




Use what you want. I�ll stick with my contention that almost any common, larger diameter cartridge is better than the .243 Win for elk and that a good starting place is the 6.5mm�s with a 140g bullet at 2800fps. And I will continue to recommend a .30-30 over the .243 Win in most situations.

Over the years I had a lot of people ask me what cal to bring elk hunting. What ever legal cal you shoot best! I don't care if it's a 243 or a 416, the key is shot placement.

WildernessHunter �

I think you are headed the right direction with the 7mm-08, but if you are going to use 120g bullets let me suggest a .257 Roberts and 120g A-Frames. So far I have chosen not to use mine for elk but I have the A-Frame load developed should I ever change my mind � WW +P brass and a 120g A-Frame at 2947fps for 2130fpe at the muzzle and 1510fpe at 250 yards. A .25-06 can push the 1500fpe mark out to 300 yards or a bit more with the same bullet.

A 7mm-08 will easily push a 140g Partition at 2800fps at the same recoil level, assuming 7.5 pound rifle/scope combinations. This load also delivers 1500fpe at the 300 yard line and, zeroed for MPBR or a 6� target, is down only 11� at 350 yards and still retains over 1400fpe. As your daughter grows, the 7mm-08 has the ability to add another 100fps , pushing the 1500fpe line out to 350 yards and the 1400fpe line out to 400 yards. It would be a fine choice.

Coyote don't be real surpised when you get to working with the 30-30 if you have a hard time getting to published ballistics, especially with the 170's,with out getting into some high pressure symptoms.
There ,there's one more peice of experience you can totaly dismiss as so much bs.
Wilderness one other cartridge that would fit the bill for your daughter, and used to be real popular for everything including elk is the 257 Roberts.

Ranch13 �

Thanks for the tip, but I have already worked up loads for the Speer 130,150 and 170g bullets as well as the Nosler 170g Partition RN. I had no problem getting 2300fps from the Speer and Nosler 170g bullets with the right powder.

Winchester 170g silvertip factory ammo is advertised at 2200fps and runs 2193fps in my rifle (2 shot average, 2189fps and 2196fps actual). That�s close enough to published velocities for me.

Alright....just count me brave for this follow-up posting.

Today, my 17 year old and I went gun shop hopping. We did no fewer than four gun shops....looking, holding, sizing and had many a discussion about recoil, killing power and if a certain cartridge was appropriate for Deer, Antelope and Elk.

As I had posted earlier, I was sold on the .308 family. I thought I was set on either the .260 Remington or the 7mm-08 Remington. After a couple of gunsmiths, eyed my daughter, they strongly suggested a .243 Winchester. One of their comments, �I would rather see her shooting strongly loaded 100 grain partition�s, than lightly loaded 120 grain 7mm-08�s.� Regardless of whether you are in agreement, I did agree with their main point�.start her with a rifle that will help to develop good shooting habits, where she doesn�t fear the recoil. (By the way, I could not find a .260 Rem at an affordable price, except in a Ruger M77 compact�18� barrel�.which I was not interested in.)

So, I chose the .243 Win. Specifically, I went with the Stevens Model 200. We will take it to the range in the morning and get it zeroed in.

Yes, I know many of you will chastise me for selecting a .243 Win for my daughter when we will certainly go Elk Hunting, but it is what it is. Also, we always hunt in pairs and Cassi will have her daddy�s 325 WSM backing up her .243.



=================================

Wilderness I wasn't bs'n when I said I've killed a dozen elk with the 243 and have seen many more than that turn stone cold dead when hit by a 243.
You might want to stock up on H414 powder the 243 really likes it.
If I was you I'ld worry more about how to get her elk dressed and hauled out than rescuing her with your 325. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You gotta good point Ranch13. I have no doubt Cass will pin-point her shot. Shot selection and shot placement.....!!!!! I am very pleased with our purchase and believe it is the right gun for Cass.

You gotta good point Ranch13. I have no doubt Cass will pin-point her shot. Shot selection and shot placement.....!!!!! I am very pleased with our purchase and believe it is the right gun for Cass.

Having chosen the Stevens in 243Win ... couldn't you get a 260Rem or 7mm/08 barrel and swap it over at a later date if required? I thought barrel swaps were pretty straight forward on a Savage action?
My gunsmith had a similar problem when he outfitted his 15YO daughter for an African safari ... he ended up building her a take-down M98 in 300H&H with removable break. She did well on all the plains games she aimed it at.
Cheers...
Con

Yes Con, on another posting 260RemGuy stated that he had changed the barrel out on a Savage Model 11 that was in the 308 family to a 260 Rem and it performed wonderfully. He also provided a vendor where a good barrel can be purchased for about $100.

I think what I will do..... Let my 17 year-old hunt with this gun this year and next year get her a 7mm-08. Then I will hand the 243 down to my 11 year old (will be 12 next year). Then I would have the choice to either keep the 243 as is or upgrade it to a 260 or another 7mm-08 as my youngest grows older.

Actually, I an thinking I will keep the 243 as is....one of these days I will have Grandkids.

Well, took her out and ran 16 rounds through the S200 this morning....

Last night I mounted my 16 year old 3-9x40 Bushnell Banner on the rifle and this morning at the range I visually bore-sighted it. It only took me 6 rounds before it was grouping nicely in the middle at 100 yards. (Of course, I completely cleaned the barrel every four rounds as part of the break-in.) Then I moved the target out to 200 yards. It was about that time that the wind started whipping pretty good, but at 200 yards I was still able to get a 3" group with the next 10 rounds. Not bad for an out of the box, cheap-O gun and 16 year-old cheap-O scope. I suspect the accuracy will get better on a calm day and plan to take Cass out tomorrow and let her have at it.

By the way, this little gun is very light. I haven't weighed it yet, but it is noticeably lighter than my Winchester 70 Ultimate Shadow. But even with the light weight, the recoil is still pretty light and noticeably less than the boy's 270 Win.

What are you feeding it for ammo?

WH,
Thank God for that! Our first is still cooking (4 months to go!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) and I've just picked him/her up a Zastava .308Win. I'm glad I'm in good company.
Cheers...
Con

Being that I am still two weeks away from picking up my late, father's reloading equipment, I am purchasing ammo. So, the first two boxes are Federal Power-Shok with 80 grain soft points. Why these????....well, they were $9 a box and I wanted to let her start shooting a lighter load and bullet. As I mentioned in an earlier post, when it comes hunting season, I will either purchase or reload with 100 grain partitions.

Nothing wrong with the 80 grs for target/plinking stuff. In fact I've noticed there isn't enough difference in target impact between the 80's and 100's to worry about. So get it sighted in with a good 100 gr load for hunting, and let her try and shoot the bore out of it with 80's. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
When you get the reloading setup for it, H 414 has become my favorite do it all powder in the 243, 4350 is good also, 4831 works well with the 100's .

By the way, as I have done more research and talked with more gun dealers and gun smiths, I would be leaning to the 7mm-08 over the 260 Rem. It seems that the 7mm-08 is superior in ballistics and energy as well as having about the same recoil. So, I am already shopping for a 7mm-08 in a Stevens....which will be hard to find.

A good friend of mine got his grandson a 260 , and so far it's got 1 elk and a handfull of antelope, and mule deer, withone of those deer being a pretty good sized buck, and the shot was somewhat of a barrel stretcher.
I don't have any experience with the 708, but I do with the 7x57 , so if paper ballistics are to be believed then the 708 should be just a dandy cartridge for all around use.

get a remington SPS youth in 308, 20" barrrel and R3 pad, and never look back.

My first elk was a 7 Mag at 70 yards, lung shot, no visible effect, put a second round in him at 40 yards, 2 " from the first. Elk walked 20 more yards then lay down and died of a sucking chest wound. Bought a .338, worked up a load with NP 225gr and took 6 elk over the next 10 years. Visible difference in the "authority" of the round at impact. Shots ranged from 40 to 400 yards. Last elk taken with a .300 Win Mag NP 200gr. Neck shot, 80 yards, dropped like a stone.

I'm sure a .243 or .257 would have dropped some of them just as well, but why use a round with less than the best. The old Nosler Reloading manual gives the .30 cal 200 gr Partition spitzer the most ME at 500 yards of any round in the book when fired at 2900fps, which used to be the factory spec for the .300 Mag. My 26 in. Win Stainless classic poops it out at 3050 in the Federal Premium version with 1" groups on average. Why let a little recoil bother you when you only shoot one or two shots in anger a year anyway. For the last 10 years my annual sight in is 2 shots, no change in point of impact, put the gun away until it goes hunting. Those two boxes of N225s in .338 lasted me 10 years. 4 rounds per year on average. Use a PAST recoil absorber when sighting in, and you'll never feel the recoil when youre in the field. Think about it, when is the last time you felt the recoil of your 12 ga shotgun when launched at a duck or pheasant. Only in extended bench rest sessions does recoil become a flinchy nuisance after 10 or 15 rounds. I gave mya 16 yr old daughter a .308 Model 88 for her first elk hunt and she never flinched. 165 gr. Hornady's as I recall. Similar ballistics out to 200 yards as the 300 Mag at 400. I just would rather carry the confidence of knowing I've done everything I possibly can to produce the most accurate, powerful round downrange when the time comes to deliver it, which includes a 2.5 x 8 Leupold. Then it becomes only a question of me having the discipline to breathe, relax, aim ,,slack, and squeeze, except there is no more slack on good sporting triggers.

Just some IMHO ramblings from a used-to-be young guy, FWIW. First you've got to find where the Elk are; everything else is just lagniappe.