People who have shot Elk with both cartridges see any difference in killing power?
Thanks,

Not those 2 specifically, but I've shot elk with a 30-06 which is close to the 308 and with a 300 WSM which is close to the 300 WM. After a dozen or so elk with the 300 WSM, I realized that there wasn't a single one of them that I couldn't have got just as easy with my 30-06 that weighs a pound less.

First off I don’t have a 300 wm , but I do hunt , shoot , and hand load for 308 and 300 wsm.

Next , are you fortunate enough to live where the elk roam , with elk hunting being just another everyday occurrence for you ?
Or is an elk hunt a once or twice hunt of a lifetime for you , where you skimp and save for years then drive cross country.
I’m in the later group.

What’s your maximum range you are willing to shoot ?

I like the 308 . It’s great for a lot of things.
However when i went elk hunting I took the 300 wsm. Never even a question.
Late season hunt shots average 200-300 yds , with 400-500 being very realistic where I hunt.

The 300 wsm adds approximately 400 FPS to the same bullet vs the 308.
The 300wsm carries the same energy at 500 yds as the 308 does at 275 .
No question to me !

Not so much the maximum range where the elk will be, but the ability of the shooter to hit an elk at that range. First elk I killed was with a.308 at a little over 400 yards. At that time I was doing a lot of NRA, 3 position shooting out to 600 yards with service rifles, M1 and Springfield 03's (no scope). I was confident of my ability. Would not do that today. Whether it is a once in a life time hunt or yearly hunt,using any rifle such to extend the shooting range past the hunters ability is folly.The same as taking a shot at poor presentation angled shot thinking the magnum will get thru to the vitals.I see it every year .

Contrary to many hunters thoughts, elk are not all that hard to kill.I have killed elk with a 30-30, 44mag, 45-70, .308, 30-06, 7mm mag, and a 50 caliber muzzle loader from 10 yards to 400+. They all died about the same, except the few when I messed up the shot. Longest tracking job was one I shot with a 7 mag many years ago. I really messed that one up.I was over confident of the 7mags ability.

I’ve killed quite a few with a 300wm, a couple with a 308 and seen my daughter kill several more with a 308.

We’ve had no trouble killing elk with a 308. On my daughter’s first bull she hit him twice from opposite sides and ended up breaking both shoulders with 150 grain cheapo federal ammo. Shots were around 240 yards I think.

I’ve also taken shots with the wm that I probably would not have with a 308.

There seems to be some element on this board that thinks magnums are overkill, hardly anyone can really shoot them, too heavy, too loud, too much recoil, etc. Hunters who really know what they are doing only need a .237 pipsqueak.

I think there are some scenarios when the wm will open up some options. I think that the real difference is who is shooting. Yes I’ve had hunters that couldn’t shoot their magnums, but I also really doubt they’d have been that much better with a 223.

I have killed elk with a 300 Win mag, a 308 Norma mag, a 30/378 Weatherby mag and two 300 H&H mag and also with 3 different 308s.
The longest shots of any of the rifles listed above were actually made with my Mossberg MVP 308 with the lightest bullets, WW 150 grain Power Points. (not planned that way, but that's how it worked out) Those kills were made by myself and my wife at just shy of 400 yards.
All my kills with the various 300 mags have been made at 275 yards and less, with one made with the 300 Win mag at only 30 yards.
So the ones made at super close range with the magnums were easy to get good hits with. The 3 different 308s I have used are a Smith Enterprises M14, an FN-FAL and the Mossberg MVP. The M14 was loaded with 180 grain Round Nose bullets made by Hornady. The FAL was loaded with 165 grain Nosler Partitions and the MVP was loaded with 150 grain Winchester Power Points and 165 grain Nosler partitions. One elk killed wiuth the FAl, 2 with the M14 and 6 with the MVP 3 by me and 3 by my wife and one friend who borrowed it on one hunt.
The 30/378 (one elk) was loaded with a 180 grain Speer Grand Slam. The 300 Win mag (one elk) was loaded with a 180 grain Sierra. The two 300 H&Hs (4 elk) were loaded with 220 grain Hornady, 190 grain Hornady and 200 grain Nosler partitions. My 308 Norma (2 elk) was used with a 165 grain Hornady and a 180 grain Nosler Partition.

So the problem with any comparison of a 300 mag VS a 308 would have to be shots of near identical angles of the elk, and at the same ranges, and using the same bullets.

So I definitely can say I have done what you ask, but I doubt my results can be said to be of any real value in any valid comparison. Of the elk I have killed with those rifles, some were cows, some bulls, some as close as 30 yards and as far as 390 yards, some moving, some standing, and in the whole bunch there were also bullets of several makers and weights of 150 165 180 190 200 and 220.
Some dropped at the shot and the one shot with the 300 Win Mag at only 30 yards went about 75 yards before he dropped. In that mix I didn't add those I killed with 30-06s (5) and one with a 300 Savage.
So I think it's not good to give advice on the question as asked. Far better to say what bullets to use and also to ask about your hunting style and hunting location.

What I can say without reservation, is that the 308 is just fine for elk hunting. Obviously so are the 300 mags. But we are told all the time that the 308 is only good up close, or that it's not going to "put them down" as well as a 300 and in my 50 years of hunting and guiding I can say those statements are simply not based in reality. A 30 cal bullet of good construction, even fired from a lowly 308 (or a 300 savage) will go clear through, break bones, and exit ----------and kills elk just fine. All the dedicated 300 mag shooters I ever knew were confident in their 300s and with good reasons, but none I know have actually killed vary many elk with 308s, 300 Savages, 303 British, 8X57, 7X57, 7-08, 6.5X55 and a whole bunch of others too, so their idea that they have "the best tool" is not actually based on knowledge, but far more of what they believe the other cartridges would do. In other words, they guess. 300 and 338 shooter DO have excellent arms for elk. But to say they do better then some other cartridge , they would have to have seen 15-50 others shot with each of those other cartridges to know without doubt that X is "better" then Y.

I have done it and seen it about 5-6 times more than I have done it and I am not guessing. I know what I know, and I admit there are a lot of bullet and cartridges I don't know, but I can make some guesses too. Many I have shot myself and about 5X more I have seen shot by friends, family members and clients. When I write something as a fact it's a fact. I ALWAYS tell my opinions but make sure I write it as an opinion. All my educated guesses are exactly that................guesses.
But when I say that I shot X at Y angle at Z range with Q bullet and the bullet hole was like thus and such... you can bank on that being the truth. If I see it several times in a row I assume it is going to be like that most times. One shot on one elk is not a pattern.

Seeing a similar behavior with a round over 5 to maybe 15 kills is how you learn what to expect. I started killing elk when I was 9. That was 54 years ago. In those 54 years I have shot a lot more, and as a guide or sub-guide as well as just a friend of MANY other hunters, I am betting (and not exaggerating) I have seen hundreds and hundreds of them killed. As a sub-guide working for outfitters in 5 different states it was very common for me to be in on the killing of anywhere from 6 to 20 per year . Over a span of a half century.

300 Mags work very well. That's a fact. Not just an opinion.
So do 308s and that's also a fact. Not just an opinion.

You can have rather poor results with any rifle if your placement of the bullet is poor, and also if the bullet doesn't go through in a fairly straight line when it hits perfectly, yet veers off course inside, or breaks up and doesn't go very deep. My 30 yard kill with my old 300 Win Mag is one such kill. The shot was only 30 yards and the elk went into a very deep and very steep gully totally choked with alder brush and even though it only went about 75 yards after the hit it took me 45 minutes to find him. 180 grain bullet, but what I recovered weighed 37 grains and was an empty jacket. That bullet hit dead center of the chest, but turned about 45 degrees and took out the back of the lung on the other side and went down the body into the paunch even though the elk was not facing in that direction. It broke up because the shot was too close for such a load in my opinion, and the velocity of that hit was too high for the bullet to hold together. Bad choice of gun? NO! It was a M70 in 300 Win Mag. I was young then and wanted to believe what I read, so I thought a long range load and bullet would be fine if I had to use it at close range. And yes, I got my bull. But I am 100% certain if I had used that bullet at a slower speed (as in from a 308) I would have done better, or if I had used a tougher bullet with the "old fashioned flat base, thick jacket and "poor long range flight abilities" I would also have done better. My longest range elk kills have all been with "poor flyers", (lower BCs ) yet all of them were quick and human kills with short runs, and one with no run.

What is a fact is that 308 should be loaded with a bullet that doesn't break up easily for elk hunting. The same is true (even more so) with all the 300s. Loaded with bullet that don't break up a 308, 30-06, 300 Magnum 303 British, 300 Savage, or for that matter, a 6.5MM or 270 or 7X57 all drop elk with real authority, and when they run after a hit they run a very short distance.

It's also a fact that poor bullets kill. There is no way to "bless an elk" and "do it good" by shooting them.... with anything.

But the best performance is always going to be from good bullets over time and involving a lot of kills if you shoot enough elk to see the patterns develop, over decades of experience. All bullets can do weird things occasionally. Even the very best ones. But the best bullets do odd and objectionable things FAR less then the others.

Even the worst bullets kill well if they hit the heart or break the neck. So to say one is "bad' and another is "good" you have to see them used several dozen times at various ranges and angles to see any valid pattern.

Looking at the facts I wrote about above about my kills from all my 308s and all my 300s, you can see that there is still not enough info there to make a valid case. There were too many variables.

So that is why I droll on about the hunts I have been on where others have done the killing. In seeing many hundreds of kills I can argue a pattern for certain bullets, but in my 50+ years of killing elk I can't say that a 308 is really a worse choice for elk killing then a 300.
Use a good bullet and take the rifle you shoot best. If you shoot a 308 better then you do a 300 mag they YOU are going to do a LOT better with your 308.

The kill is 98% about how you do, and 2% about what you do it with. Forget about getting the best elk gun and concentrate on being the best elk hunter.

I am joining the conversation with another tidbit. I am a lady, all my elk, and that's not all that many, have been taken with a 300 winmag. At first, that's all I had, a long and heavy BAR inherited from my dad, and then a bolt action with a short (12 1/2") LOP that fits me well. Every elk died. One had to be tracked, I bring that up to say that it was not the bullet, or distance, or rifle... that it was me... I hit it badly, a liver hit, and fine big cow that we did recover. I can't blame anything about that but my out of breath hurried shot. I agree with szihn and saddlesore. The hunter, and his choice of bullet for the job, and the limitations of the hunter, are the biggest variables in the equation. I do a lot of hunting with a 7/08 now, and everything has DRT. I have not elk hunted with it, and should I get to go out west again I will take the 300. Having a rifle that fits you, while LOP is not a big factor for a lot of folks, it is a complete necessity for me, and once I got enough $ to get a rifle that I could cut down ( I was NOT chopping up my dad's Belgium Browning, lol) the fit made much more difference than the caliber. I had a great friend, a cultivated lady that had exquisite command of the kings English, she took in the neighboorhood of 30 elk in her career, all shot with a 270, all easily recovered. She was a cool and collected methodical shot, with excellent ability to limit her shots to the ones that she considered optimal. I think she could have hunted with anything!

Kings English. Laughing on that one.

So my take, with zero elk ever shot at. Its just like anything else.

Right bullet in the right place.

The problem comes with another poster, how often do you hunt , how far travel, what shots are you willing to take or not take?

Its all in the above that it gets covered. You simply don't take a shot you are not 200% confident in. 308 will technically allow less angle and less range. Though given the right conditions and my choice of bullet, I'd not hestitate in the right conditions to take an elk on with my 308 at a distance I won't type.

That said the mags with correct bullet tend to give one a bit more leeway in penetration, sometimes in bullet drop, and often in wind drift, though not always. Up to a point more bullet always gets deeper and thats a thing to think on if you aren't willing to travel a long way and pay big dollars only to see the south end of a northbound trophy and not shoot.

Mostly these days I'm willing to pass up a shot at anything at any distance if not comfortable and go home totally happy. Either conditions or such or I made a choice of to light of a round for the any situation kind of thing.

The very first thing to consider to me is can you shoot the gun and really deal with the recoil? If so carry on. Second thing is bullet choice and I'm just about 2000% sold on TTSX for about any and all uses except really long shots.. there I might defer back to the bergers we shoot quite often. Simply due to an accuracy thing PLUS either hunting or target I've never seen what I call a failure from a Berger for years now.

There is no shame on going down in recoil until you can handle a round. That said a suppressor is a big friend in shootability on many guns, if its not to long, big and heavy and you can afford it and its legal where you hunt.

Good luck!

Well, this page was very interesting and informative. Thanks to those who participated.

Kill an elk with either out to ranges you will likely never get to...

OH SGT stupid again!!

Whatever...

if you are a little recoil shy as some are get the 308 Win.
if your not recoil shy the 300 Win. Mag. is the better choice for distance. >its your money and your decision. Pete53

If you got a horse to carry your rifle, get the 300 WM. If you gotta carry it yourself up and down a mountain, a lighter more compact 308 might be less cumbersome.

Very well put !

Thanks for all the responses, keep them coming.

Ralphie and Szihn both mentioned bullet choice for magnums. For whatever reason I’ve had some very close shot opportunities for elk, and if I’m shooting a bullet faster than about 2900 or 3000 fps I want a tough bullet, Scirocco, Accubond, Partition, TTSX, others etc.

Below 2900 fps more bullets work well. I still prefer heavy for caliber.

I’ve killed elk with a 30-06, 50 cal muzzleloader, and 7 Mashburn. They all work. If I had to pick I would pick the Mashburn because I have 2 that I really like.

One of the guys I used to hunt with used a .308 model 100 Win... His standard method for shooting elk was shoot 2 or three times through the lungs as quickly as he could...

You summed up the Campfire pretty well.

I'd like to see a factory 30-06 that weighs less than the same mfgs 300 wsm.

Amen... A guy that really gets this place...

Any difference between the .308 and 300 WM? Absolutely not - except the 300WM may weigh up to 2 lbs. more and be two inches longer. It comes down to your proficiency with a quality bullet. As I am looking forward to my 20th elk later this year, I will be carrying a 6.5CM again to confirm last year's two successes - a caribou and cow elk. Both with a 143gr ELD-X at 2700 fps..

Both shoot a .30 caliber bullet. The only measurable difference between the two is velocity. Velocity matters for certain bullets to expand. I shoot Barnes Triple Shocks and I think the minimum velocity is around 180-2000 for full expansion. All this means is the 300WM will theoretically allow for a longer shot and still have the velocity for the bullet to perform. I like the 300WM as an elk round and it's served me well; ironically, I've never taken a shot at elk past 140 yards.

Cant all this be answered with a 30-06 shooting a 180 Partition or similar in an sub 8lb rifle with a NF SHV?

So don't shoot a bullet that needs high velocity to expand. There are plenty of them out there that are real elk killers in a 308 or 30-06. The 308 has been used for 1000 yd competition. It'll reach out there with the right bullets.

The .300 shoots faster flatter and hits harder.. If you don’t need the range and speed, don’t use it.. Much of elk hunting doesn’t require it or the rifleman can’t use it.. J. Jobson a O’Connor pal and .270 lover said the perfect rifle for elk if you can use it is a .300 Wea. With 180 partitions... If you are too weak to carry one, use something less.. There are times when it fits the bill, and a .308 doesn’t not often but some.. If you are happy using something in the .308 do so... I want to make the most of any chance I get so I will pack my .300 if I am serious about getting my game.. If I am just out to enjoy the day, a 6mm, .300 Sava. Or 06 is fine..

Hyper velocity with many projectiles inside of 350 yards perform less admirably than ones launched at 308 Win velocities. The best attribute of the 308 Win is most bullets perform very well at 308 Win impact velocities. Deep penetration with excellent expansion and bullet weight retention are hallmarks of the 308 Win as well as ease of shooting and accuracy with just about anything you feed it.

I use to believe that mattered until a friend dropped a huge Bull Moose in his tracks at 50 yards with a ballistic tip from his 300 Mag. Now I believe that the power dump from the magnum makes up for the bullet not staying together.

Might need to add 30 carbine and 300 blackout as the same then .

I might add on recoil...I've shot a few .308 light rifles than hurt/got in my face more than many 300 mags, In fact, I have had some 30-06 rifles kick far more than any 300 Mag I've shot, ha. when compared to shotgun fit, a person usually has time to adjust to a bad fitting rifle. I see lots of guys with 'standard" LOP factory rifles who hunt all bundled up...or get the top edge of the stock caught in their armpit before they can get on a "usually running" elk! The added "pressure" of desiring a trophy on a paid hunt, for me, has had me choose 300 magnums up through .375, all with monos for the added insurance, but they were rifles I shot extensively ( and wanted the experience of hunting with) long before. Every rifle I took to South Africa/Namibia on four hunts had all been shot at least 100 times, and some had killed deer/antelope, etc beforehand. All part of the fun for me! I hate "make do"...growing up poor did that to me. I'm sure I could have killed half the trophies in my life with my old Mod 94 Classic 30-30 carbine I bought myself at 16. You remember, the Friday Afternoon Special that had an "oval" chamber, 6# trigger pull? The one that shot about 5" at 100 and could only "nick" an antifreeze jug at 150...from the sit? ha Luckily for me, I had a place to hunt where I didn't have to shoot past 75yds most of the time! It was a beautiful rifle though, and I admired it many hours sitting in a tree or beside a big White Oak. But I'd rather have more options, ha.

The other aspect not yet mentioned; I feel much better walking through grizzly country with a 300win on my shoulder than a 308win.

I've killed elk with both, and they both work equally well at the distances I shoot. 308 is lighter and recoils less, so that's been my choice for the last 5 years. Ymmv.

Hey soup- I have a hunting buddy here who has used a Browning BLR .308 since HS, 50yrs ago! 150 corlokt on everything from antelope to bison.

The difference between a 300 WM and a 308 Win is ~190 yards.

What I am referring to is if you take 165/168 grn premium bullet with say a BC of .470 and launch it at 2725 fps out of a 308 and 3100 fps out of 300 WM and they you start looking at retained velocity you will find that the retained velocity is about equal approximately 190 yards further out for the 300 WM.

Why retained velocity? Bullets kill because of penetration and causing permanent tissue damage leading to loss of oxygenated blood to the brain. Penetration given the same bullet is caused by how much velocity it strikes the target with.

Before everybody starts arguing about the velocities above, these are typical velocities for typical powders. Not the best velocity with the best powder in somebody's 26 inch bbl rifle.

I always chuckle when somebody says their 300 WM will kill elk at 500 yards but a 308 won't at 300 yards. it's the same gun at those two distances.

I would prefer the right bullet and a 308 for under 50 yard shot at a grizz. to a 300 Win. Penetration and bullet integrity versus velocity. And a lighter handier rifle.

Not to mention less muzzle flip/recoil (getting back on target for the shot), and greater magazine capacity.

All my hunting is in grizzly country... I'm perfectly at ease with the 308, 7-08, 270, etc...

Yeah buddy!

Point blank shots at high velocity may cause problems.

Elk ain't hard to kill, but wounded elk are hard to find.

This rather robust study does not agree with that statement. Not entirely intuitive, to me anyway, but the study showed that very high velocity does not increase penetration. It doesn’t hurt with “premium bullets”, but definitely does not help with standard lead core bullets.

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html#308_caliber

Interestingly, the only TTSX bullet I’ve caught from my 338 Fed was a ~35 yd shot with a muzzle velocity of 3050. A PH I hunted with made the statement that for the relatively short ranges they typically see, a heavy bullet shot at 2400-2500 tends to work the best.

Food for thought.

I agree prm.

I usually still hunt with a lever action carbine in 308 or .300 savage. When still hunting I am ever hoping for a point blank shot.

But......
If I was to use a magnum like my 308 Norma, or my 7 mag. To still hunt with. I would use a monolithic or the heaviest nosler partition I could find. Because of the chance of a point blank shot.

That rather "robust" study is actually completely irrelevant to my statement:

"Penetration given the same bullet is caused by how much velocity it strikes the target with". Note the words "same bullet".

That study takes into account 18 different bullets of varying weights and construction at different impact velocities. Of course those bullets will have different penetration characteristics based on construction, SD, and impact velocity and higher velocity may not equal greater penetration. It is also rather obvious that a 165 Sierra Game King (softer bullet) with an impact velocity of say 2820 will penetrate less than a 200 grain Barnes X (harder bullet) with an impact velocity of 2730.

My statement is referring to (as an example) that if a 165 Barnes TSX bullet is fired and leaves the muzzle at 2725 fps from rifle #1 and a 165 Barnes TSX bullet is fired at 3100 fps from rifle number 2 and the first bullet is travelling at 2200 fps at 305 yards and the second bullet is travelling at 2200 fps at 500 yards, the bullets are going to have the same penetration when it strikes the same type of target even though the target was at different distances.

And the charts show that the same bullet penetrates roughly equal to or MORE as it slows down. Exactly opposite what your quote implied.

There are too many variables to draw that conclusion for all bullets and all velocities.

I shot both .308 Win and .300 Win Mag this season, both with Barnes TTSX, 130 and 165 respectively, bullets launched at about 3100 fps. Both exited, everything fell down dead. I shot a deer at about five feet with a .45 ACP 230 grain at 900 fps and the bullet did not exit - deer was very dead too. So, the slower and heavier bullet did not penetrate as much as the faster and lighter bullets. Theory disproven?

My statement doesn't say or imply that either. The statement says "Penetration given the same bullet is caused by how much velocity it strikes the target with." Note the words "Penetration is caused" and "how much". "Penetration is caused" does not necessarily mean "more penetration" and "how much velocity" does not necessarily mean greater velocity.

It is rather obvious that as a bullet expands and deforms it has greater resistance within the target which has a negative impact on penetration.

You're reading into his statement an awful lot. He never said or implied higher velocity equals more penetration. Only that velocity dictates penetration.

sounds like a good plan to me, kinda like my hunting hogs with a .223 AR.

Two years ago, I had the opportunity to autopsy 3 Newfoundland bull moose, all shot twice, broadside through the lungs/heart. Results were nearly identical, all 6 bullets were found under the skin on the far side. All were mushroomed perfectly. All went down within a few feet of being hit with the first shot.
First moose was taken with 150 gr Partitions out of a 300 Savage at about 65 yards.
Second was taken with 180 gr Trophy Bonded out of a 300 Win Mag at approx 200 yards.
Third one also used 180 gr Trophy Bonded, but out of a 300 Weatherby, also at about 200 yards.
FWIW, this past season, I watched a Maine bull moose get hit, broadside through the liver at about 300 yards with 200 gr Partition out of a 8mm Rem Mag. He walked 15-20 ft and went down. Got complete penetration with that bullet. The liver was thoroughly destroyed.
My take away is that the only important thing is to tuck a good bullet into the right spot.

Between the .308 and .300WM, as long as you can shoot them equally well or close to, and other factors are essentially equal as well (rifle weight, etc.), the decision for me is easy - take the bigger bang. I don't see any downside under those circumstances.

That said, a .308 Win would have sufficed for every elk I've taken. Whether all would have dropped as quickly, no one can know - but I'm confident none would have stayed on their legs much longer..

Got a .308 for Daughter #1 for her first elk rifle, shooting 130g TTSX @ 3045fps. Upgraded her to a .270 Win with 150g ABLR @ 2912fps last year. Have a shorty 16.1" barrel) .308 Win that wighs 6.25 pound sans scope and ammo and have considered taking it, but keep reaching for my 7mm RM, a .30-06, .300WM or .338WM instead.

Depends on the bullet. A mono that impacts at high velocity often shears its petals off, which provides for very deep penetrqtion.

"Penetration given the same bullet is caused by how much velocity it strikes the target with."

So it doesn't depend on the bullet, unless you consider different calibers and weights, which makes it NOT the same bullet.

Same bullet, velocity rules. But higher velocity does not always mean greater penetration, as has been proven many times.

Actually it does. The fact you can't grasp this is telling.

An elk's hide is amazingly stretchy and tough. Even with a 300 WSM and premium bullets, I've had them stopped by the hide on the far side. They do an exit from the body but the hide will stretch way out and stop it. That has no affect on killing power since the bullet has completely penetrated. It just doesn't poke another hole.

I’ve used 30-06 180gr partition, 7mm various 150-160 grain bullets, 300 Weatherby 180gr TTSX from 11 yards to 550 yards for 15 elk. Helped with several more do not inexperienced but not the variety of some here.
If you are comfortable limiting your shots to less than 300 yards with good angles not much difference between 308 & 300 Win Mag. If you want to extend the range or take a tougher angle through bone or more chest the 300 is your better choice. My elk hunts are expensive trips with limited shot opportunities so I use a magnum with a stout bullet.

If you restrict my statement to monos or spitzer solids and selected FMJs, I would agree that higher velocity will generally result in greater penetration but I would not contend that is always the case.. With jacketed bullets, lower velocities will often result in higher penetration, as has been demonstrated many times.

Again, that depends. What is a fact, is you dont have a clue.

I'm not 100% sure I'm understanding what you're saying so I apologize if I'm reading it wrong, but penetration is absolutely determined by impact velocity, all else being equal. That doesn't mean higher impact velocity means more penetration. It just means that if you fire the same bullet put of a .308 Win and a .300 Win Mag and the impact velocity is the same, then penetration will be as well. At least in a perfect world. But unfortunately animals are not all the same and very minor changes in POI can significantly change terminal performance. A small sample size could change the results due to minor variations in manufacture, variations in the target, etc, but with a large sample size this will hold true.

They both work equally well to a certain distance. The 300 Mag extends that distance. 300 Win Mag recoil is not hard to manage.

Edit: Yes I have shot elk with both.

Good to know that YOU know exactly how ".300 Win Mag" recoil feels to everybody else.

There is a bit of delusion concerning a .308 Win being equivalent to any .300 magnum.....

Yep..

There is a correlation between mid-winter doldrums and threads concerning some minimum cartridge to kill elk. If you feel confident with a magnum and can master it, great! If you choose to hunt with a mid-level plain jane cartridge - great! Hunt within the limitations each cartridge has.

I was at a bar in Montana around Christmas and I guy told me a 308 can't kill elk it's a deer gun. U need a 300 mag. But like as was stated before,
At what yardage does a 300 win mag have the same velocity as a 308 out of the muzzel??

Same .308 bullet.

Thank YOU. What a joke. It is not hard to manage, maybe for you?

You know there's always going to be a pissin match when you have threads like this. That's why I just microwave some popcorn and watch the show.... Should we talk about 270 vs. 30-06 again, or is it 6.5 creed vs. 6.5 sweed? Come on guys...

Ask Randy Newberg if 308 (or 7-08) are good elk killers. I believe he has a whole wall of proof. Never killed one myself so I have to rely on others experience. But I never argue with success. Would tend toward the 300 mag or bigger myself should I ever get my one chance.

peeshooter,

Gee, lemme see. I have not only taken bull elk with the .300 Winchester Magnum, but the two other most popular .300 magnums, the WSM and Weatherby, at ranges from 75 to 400 yards. Have also use used the .300 Winchester to take around a dozen species of big game in four western states and five other countries, including New Zealand, Mexico, Canada and a couple in Africa. My primary "scope test" rifle is a Heym SR-21 in .300 Winchester Magnum, which averages under 1/2" for 3-shot groups at 100 yards, using a load combining H1000 with the 210-grain Berger VLD at around 2950 fps. This provides enough accuracy AND recoil to soon reveal any scope defects.

But I have also observed a lot of other people shooting .300 magnums. Among the most revealing observations was a month-long hunt in South Africa, where I, plus a dozen other hunters (in two "shifts" of two weeks each), took close to 200 animals. Several of the other guys brought .300 magnums as either their "light" or "heavy" rifles, mostly Winchesters but also one WSM. A couple shot them well throughout the hunt, but others ended up started to flinch, mostly because they were taking far more animals than on a typical North American hunt. A couple recognized the problem and switched to their lighter rifle, but one only brought a relatively lightweight .300, and by the second week of his hunt was not shooting well at all.

In fact, the last animal he shot was a kudu bull at 200 yards, which ran off leaving a sparse blood trail, which soon ended, and even a couple of excellent trackers could not find the bull. It was discovered a week later, after the hunter had already flown back to the U.S., by smell. It had been hit through the lower jaw, and died of thirst.

I brought a 7x57 and 9.3x62 as my primary rifles, but also used a .300 Winchester Magnum belonging to one of my hunting partners to test a new bullet, taking animals from springbok to gemsbok out to 400 yards. Also used a .22-250 and another .300 Winchester belonging to one of the PH's to take some more game, partly because he was very intrigued by the performance of the new bullet. He wanted to recover one, and until that point none had stopped inside an animal. So we looked for a blue wildebeest standing in the right position to shoot it in the big shoulder joint as it stood quartering to us. Luckily, wildebeest often end up in that position, and when one did I put the bullet in the middle of the joint, and we found it under the hide at the rear of the ribcage on the opposite side,

But my experience is that the majority of hunters cannot shoot .300s very well, even without going on an extended safari. That is not just my opinion, but that of the late Finn Aagaard, who co-owned a safari company in Kenya before moving to Texas to guide in 1977, after Kenya banned big game hunting. I knew Finn pretty well, and he said only about a third of his clients who brought .300 magnums (most the .300 Winchester) could consistently kill big game cleanly. My rancher friend John Stuver, who is also a long-time Montana outfitter and guide, puts the percentage even lower. He says only about 20% of his clients who bring .300s can shoot well enough to cleanly kill pronghorn and mule deer at 200 yards.

So no, I am not naive or arrogant enough to believe that because I can shoot .300 magnums well, that everybody else can.

A man has to know his limitations.... 🤣🤣

Tell you what, you jerk. Come to my house and I'll shoot a 350g hardcast at 1097fos and again at 2000fps fps and I'll bet you $100 the lower velocity bullet will penetrate more water jugs than the faster one. I've done it many times.

Shot 2 bull elk with the 300 Win Mag and a cow and a bull with the 35 Whelen they all died, check, Some died quicker than the others from perfect shot placement ,check. All were shot with Nosler Partitions 180 's in the 300's and 225 gr in the 35 , check. Some blood shot meat with the 300 and eat up to the hole with the 35, check. Maybe next elk hunt I'll have some really bad weather days and use my M77 boat paddle stainless in 308 and I'll bet right now if I do my part with a suitable bullet and a good shot opportunity I'll have a dead elk, check. Winter getting long for some of you guys? MB

Regarding velocity... Pictures for those who don’t read. All 180gn .308 bullets. I’m the messenger, if you question the study contact the author. PRM-out.

“Possibly the most significant study on terminal performance of the last many years, from the perspective of the sportsman (if not that of the defense analyst), was documented in the June 1998 issue of Handloader magazine (Gary Sciuchetti, "The Best Hunting Bullet", No. 193, pp. 40 - 44). The author conducted an exhaustive and apparently well considered analysis of .308 caliber 180 grain bullets. His results are a little startling.”

“Perhaps the most striking observation from this penetration data is that increasing velocity has a detrimental effect on penetration for nearly all bullets over the entire velocity range of interest.”

“Although some scientifically minded individuals may object to the test media used (saturated phonebooks), the author prudently tested a variety of media under different conditions and correlated these to shots made into deer cadavers along several shotlines of interest to the hunter.”

“The second very interesting trend that immediately leaps out in looking at these data is that nearly all of these types of bullets, simple gilding metal designs, bonded bullets and monolithics alike, exhibit highly erratic behavior as impact velocities approach and descend below ~2000 fps. ”

“While for some loads the rapidity of death may be improved by high velocity (from, say 2200 fps to 3000 fps), the practical lethality of modern weapons has not really increased significantly, merely their effective range. We're not speaking of whether or not these loads are lethal, merely how quickly.”

- Commercial brands are the Federal, Remington and Winchester soft point lead-core, gilding-metal jacketed bullets;
- Conventional bullets are a larger set comprised of simple gilding-metal jacketed, lead-core design offered by the reloading suppliers Hornady, Sierra and Speer, as well as the major ammunition makers;
- Premium bullets are the major brand controlled expansion designs without bonded cores, such as the Barnes X, Speer Grand Slam, Nosler Partition and Winchester Fail-Safe;
- Custom bonded bullets are heavy-jacketed, lead-core controlled expansion designs by custom manufacturers that all feature a lead core bonded to the jacket.

Mule Deer, of sorry I did not know we were talking about cull operations. Also I'm not talking about high volume shooting. I have seen so many kids and women take elk and deer with my friends 7mm RUM he loans to his clients when I get to tag along. It recoils more than my 300 Win mag because it is lightweight. How many shots do you take on an elk? 1, 2, maybe 3? Did you feel the recoil on those shots with any cartridge? I doubt it!

If you read my post again, I was not talking ONLY about "cull operations." In particular read the part about the percentage of hunters who cannot shoot .300s accurately from a long-time African professional hunter and Montana outfitter.

Never hunted Elk and the only magnum I have is a 17 HMR but I have shot many. However I have taken a lot of kids and new hunters out for whitetails. They always get familiar with the firearm they will be using before they go out hunting. I wonder how their accuracy would suffer had they shot those magnums before the hunt. In fact I am surprised the kids/women don't have a scope ring on their eye after shooting the 7mm RUM. I have been married for 34 years and taught my wife to shoot and she is really good with a rifle ( sucks with a shotgun ) she doesn't hunt but really enjoys shooting. Hell, she hates the recoil from a 30-06 with a 150 SGK.

prm -

Thank you for posting that.The results are counter-intuitive to many and denied by some.

I've tested 460g hardcast @ 1812fps and and 300g hardcast @ 1167fps using my .45-70. The faster 460g bullet penetrated 9 water jugs while the slower 300g passed through 11 water jugs (all I had) and kept going.

Granted, the destruction done to the water jugs was much greater with the faster 460g bullet - but the subject in question was penetration, not destruction.

CWT,

I also wondered about that.

Five years ago I was one writer tour of the Leupold and Nosler factories in Oregon. One day of the tour was spent at a range about halfway between Beaverton (Leupold) and Bend (Nosler). The range went out to 1000 yards, and we had a bunch of Nosler rifles with Leupold scopes to try.

One was in the then-new 28 Nosler round, and one of the writers was a sub-editor for one of the hunting magazines, who happened to be a young woman of about average size, but also a fitness fan. She was and avid hunter and had shot quite a bit, but somebody asked her if she wanted to try the 28. She said sure, and lay down behind the bipod-equipped rifle. The scope had been set for 400 yards, so she shot at a 400-yard gong.

She hit the gong but also yelped, then stood up and started rubbing her shoulder, right through the strap-on recoil pad she was wearing. The rifle also had a soft recoil pad, and yet it HURT her--which can happen with women because even if they're avid exercisers, they don't tend to build up muscle in their shoulders like men.

After she'd rubbed the should for a few minutes, she looked at me and said, "Why would anybody want to shoot something like that?"

But as I pointed out earlier, a lot of men are relatively recoil sensitive--but don't have as much sense as that young woman. Back in my own guiding days, one of the outfitter's clients was a good-sized guy, over 6 feet and maybe 190-200 pounds. He'd come to Montana to hunt pronghorn, and because the distance were supposedly so much vaster than where he lived "back East," he didn't bring the .308 he hunted whitetails with.

Instead he bought a new 7mm Remington Magnum--and when we were doing the standard check of the scopes on a 100-yard target, could NOT shoot a group smaller than several inches. In fact, we couldn't tell if the rifle was still sighted-in or not.

Somehow I ended up shooting it, partly to see if something was wrong with the scope. The ammo was factory, and resulted in perfectly adequate 3-shot groups, of maybe 1-1/4 inches. Between us we got the rifle sighted in well enough for him to get a nice goat. But he would have had a lot less trouble with his .308.

I know I am recoil sensitive and it is probably just mental. Friends still bring me rifles to shoot/sight in for them and many are magnums of various ilks and I can tell after shooting them I am not as good as I was ( at least for a short period of time ). We can have very long shots in many if not most parts of NC ( due to farming or pastures ) and other areas of the south that I hunt but I do ok with non-magnum cartridges.

Mule Deer brings up a great point. While I can indeed give you a great 3 shot group with a .300 mag at the range, if you send me on a 2 week cull hunt with one my shooting is going to degrade rather quickly. There's a difference between "I can do this" and "I can keep on doing this".

Agreed. Although I’ve never been on a two week cull. I did get to shoot a clients .416 that had a super short length of pull and a problematic scope for too long. Finally had to pull the plug, go back to the shop, and wave the flag for a day or two.

I could be wrong but I still think some bad shooting that is blamed on magnums is just bad shooting.

Ralphie,

"I could be wrong but I still think some bad shooting that is blamed on magnums is just bad shooting."

Yes, it is. Some people will be mediocre shots no matter what they're shooting, even a .22 rimfire, due to lack of practice or physical coordination, poor eyesight (even with "corrected" vision and a scope), or excitement when shooting game.

Theodore Roosevelt is a good example--well, except for scopes, which he apparently never used. He was an avid shooter, who practiced all the time, but his eyesight wasn't great even with the glasses of the day, and he apparently got excited, so took shots and chances he shouldn't have--even after he'd hunted considerably for decades.

But my major point is that all humans are individuals, with varying characteristics, including pain threshold, eye/hand coordination, etc. And recoil tolerance can change over time. My wife is a good example. She didn't start shooting rifles and hunting seriously until her mid-30s, but turned out to be a natural in both. After working her way up through a pellet rifle (so she could practice on magazine photos of big game in the garage) to a .22 rimfire to centerfires, she got really good, partly because we live where constant practice on small varmints is possible.

She got REALLY good, and fast, when we lived in a country house where her 2nd-story office window overlooked our garden. She kept a .22 next to her desk, and when a Richardson's ground squirrel showed up in the garden, she'd shove her wheeled office chair over to the window, and whop! That also translated to shooting big game, and she eventually shot rifles up to .416 Remington Magnum with no problems. Among other rifles, she shot a 6-1/2 pound .30-06 VERY effectively, with 180-grain handloads at 2800+ fps.

But about 12-15 years ago she started getting recoil headaches. This can happen as we get older, because we're less flexible, and recoil tends to affect some people much like a concussion (though even doctors can disagree about the definition of concussion). She eventually switched to a 6-1/2-pound .308 Winchester as her "big" rifle, and used it very well with 150-grain premium bullets, both in North America and Africa.

The headache problem, however, grew even worse, and eventually we had to add a small muzzle brake to the rifle--and handload 130-grain bullets to 150-grain velocities. This has proven to be a good solution, since her headache problem has apparently stabilized. The last elk she killed was the biggest cow either of us has taken, as large as many mature bulls, taken at around 250 yards quartering toward her. The 130-grain TTSX broke the left leg just above the big shoulder joint, traveling through both lungs--and the cow staggered 20-25 yards, obviously done for, before falling.

This is just another example of how humans are individuals, which people like peeshooter fail to recognize--along with the fact that bullet quality and placement make more difference than the amount of powder or recoil. In fact, I have come to the conclusion that some hunters (usually but not always men) equate recoil with "killing power."

But the assumption that all humans are exactly alike (and especially like "me") is a common human failing.

It's already been pointed out that the .300 mag is about the same as a .308 Win just a little farther out. I personally don't think people shoot enough. Naturally people react to loud noise and physical impact. Shooting often helps you overcome the natural reaction and you "master" the firearm you choose. Some never do.

A well constructed bullet, even if it is out a a smaller cartridge and of a smaller diameter can still be effective. It's up to us to determine what we will or won't accept. The only reason small calibers with proper bullets are questionable is if a bigger blood trail is needed. Poor shot placement once again comes back to practicing. Poor bullet placement is just that. A bigger bullet may be more forgiving, but it doesn't make up for it much of the time.

I think the current trend of ultra light rifles, smaller faster rounds, and higher quality optics all combine to offer the worst performance for those who don't practice. A heavier rifle tames recoil a bit and can steady a wiggly hold, smaller faster cartridges that are easy to shoot from a bench well can lead to overconfidence in the field, right along with high magnification scopes. I see people who rarely shoot show up once a year, talking about how they shot up a box of ammo "sighting in". They have decent glass, a decent rifle, and decent ammo. What else do they need? I have rifles that I haven't adjusted the scope on in many years.

Most would be better off buying and shooting the same ammo forever, but shooting more of it. Putting a Nightforce on in place of a Bushnell doesn't fix much.

My son-in law shoots his heavy 7mm RM with a muzzle brake & Nightforce very well he doesn’t like recoil & that rifle kicks like a 243. He wanted more thump & this year went with a Vanguard 300 Weatherby w Zeiss conquest for elk. He was pleasantly surprised that he sipped a big cow in her tracks at 180 yards as I did the same with one at 240. He could see the difference from the 7 to the WEatherby in stopping power that is an advantage where we hunt. If you hunt 20,000 acres of private ranch not a big deal. Hunting public land bordering private ranches thump makes a difference.

The thing that gets me to flinching a lot is a lever too small, or a bolt bent down where it smacks or the lever pinches on my trigger hand. OUCH!

The Handloader test was a good one... right click on the pic and choose "view image" for the closeup of results, then enlarge again with a left click.

It's true, velocity is generally the enemy of deep penetration...

My latest rifle is a 300 Win Mag. Plan on shooting 168 ETip. The win mag gets me out to the range I want while still offering enough velocity for the mono to expand.

Looking forward to using the combo.

With all due respect, that's a sample of one elk shot with the .300. Hard to draw conclusions from that.

Brad,
That looks to be a very informative chart.
Do you have the link to it , so the chart can be viewed ?

I have that chart! So interesting to see how well simple cup n core bullets do at low velocity.

Same for me. I use the 308 for short work & the 300 for way out there, both with 155 Scenar’s.

He's convinced, and nothings going to change his mind.

Did some posts go missing on this thread? I thought I put one up............

It surely is with lead and copper bullets that tend to expand to s wide frontal area. With monos that often shear petals at high impact velocities, not so much.

IMO the noise generated by a rifle is what causes most people to flinch. Also a a moderate weight rifle that recoils straight back vs. one with lots of muzzle lift is much easier to deal with. Which is why stock fit/pattern and barrel contour is important.

Yes they did. I remember your post, thought it was good and commented to that effect. What I added was " I can't think of any shots I'd take with a .300 magnum that I wouldn't take with a .308."

Welcome to the ranks of the people who do in fact “have a clue”.

I think there was a problem with the whole site/server yesterday

Thought I hallucinating or something

Yup. It crashed.

Higher velocity, same bullet, more penetration...….unless the bullet blows up.

Sometimes slower bullet holds together better at closer distances. Faster bullet delivers more horsepower at all distances.

You need to understand how your bullet will perform at whatever velocity you are driving it. Pick the right one for the job.

How many shots does a rifle owner fire in practice? If the 300 mag shooter develops a flinch or other bad habit in practice there's a very good chance it'll appear in the game field whether or not he "feels the recoil" while shooting at an elk.

A "round or dummy" drill with game in the sights would be an interesting experiment.

That simply isn't true about penetration in all cases. I've tested that multiple times with my Marlin .45-70 and the results are consistent. I think it was Garrett that tested with handgun loads and found the same.

As I've mentioned before, a 300g hardcast @ 1167fps will penetrate and exit 11 water jugs while a 460g at 1812fps gets captured in jug number 9. The horsepower of the 460g bullet is much greater but is doesn't penetrate as far.

Not exactly the same bullet, but a .375"/220g Hornady FP @ 2230fps stopped in the 5th jug while a .375"/220g Sierra @ 2390fps stopped in the 4th jug.

The photos provided by prm and Brad pretty clearly shows that higher velocity is often detrimental to deeper penetration. Brad's photo shows reduced
penetration for a lot of common lead core and bonded core bullets. prm's photos showed diminished penetration with increased velocity for a variety of standard lead core; premium lead core and mono; and bonded core bullets.

I think in archery it is even more apparent that mass and not velocity is more important for penetration when hunting.

But I think the 300 mag with a 200 grain bullet or perhaps a 180 grain monolith would outperform a .308 Winchester. Both long range and point blank.

I think 165 grains is where the 308 would be best suited. Perhaps 150 grain monolithic.

But I like 180 / 165 NP s in me .308 win. My .308 Norma hurted my hand. I ain't forgave it yet.

Nothing said about penetration in this entire thread is true in all cases.

MM's quote comes as close as anything said here.

That's not true. A lot of times more speed means bigger wound channel and decreased penetration due to more expansion. I would agree that higher velocity tends to lead to more tissue damage, but even that isn't absolute.

There are so many variables it's easy to argue any point.

Mine is generally correct.

Exactly, and a fact lost on the elk wounder in chief.

Gee, I wonder why you left out part of your post from quotations? Ever cross your senial mind that the below quoted text was what I was referring to?

"So it doesn't depend on the bullet, unless you consider different calibers and weights, which makes it NOT the same bullet.."

This is a common misconception.

Go back and take a good look at the photo Brad posted.

There are 38 different bullets represented in that chart. Designs include cup-and-core, dual core, bonded and monos. They include A-Square Dead Tough; Alaska Kodiak; Barnes X; Bitterroot Bonded; Federal Hi-Shok; Hawk .030” and .035” jacketed; Hornady SP, BTSP and RN InterLock; Nosler Ballistic Tip and Partition; Remington Bronze Point and SP an RN Core-Lokt; Sierra GameKing, MatchKing and Pro-Hunter SP and RN; Speer Grand Slam, Mag-Tip, RN, SP and SPBT; Swift A-Frame; Trophy Bear Claw; Winchester Failsafe, Power-Point and Silvertip; and six others.

Don’t bother looking for one that always penetrates further as velocity increases – there aren’t any. Quite often the greatest penetration is at the lowest velocities by a wide margin – by 2x to about 5x.

I don’t see a lot of bullet dependency there. As in none.

And I’ll stand by my statements:

Pretty cool there was only about 1” of penetration difference between the Partition from top speed to low speed. About the same for the TSX...

I guess either of them get plenty far enough in animals for me. I’ll take wide frontal areas myself on game vs a couple inches of penetration, but I’m just an elk and deer hunter.

it's also a common misconception that anybody really gives a sh-it what anybody else is shooting.

LOL,as long as it's not one of those damn .30-06's, those things are just 'tweeners, halfway betwixt the hallowed .300 magnums and the demure .308!

I couldn't care less what anyone else shoots nor am I advocating any cartridge. In fact I am carrying a .300 of some sort more often than not.

^^^That's always a solid choice.

Team 300 savage!

Oh, I thought it was 300 Blackout...….grin

One of my neighbors and shooting partners (Broz) lives on an elk ranch, where they shoot a few dozen elk every year. His pet elk rifle is the 300 WinMag with a 215 Berger at around 2950 fps or so.

He generally gets only one hole up close, massive tissue disruption.

Longer distances, past 500 yards give or take, he starts to see two holes.

Pretty good example of a particular combo that digs deeper at lower impact speeds (ala 308 Win velocities).

Like I mentioned already, bullet design is so different, each type needs to be taken into consideration regarding how it will perform at likely impact velocities based on MV, target distance, etc.

You are not likely to see much difference at close ranges. With top loads for both, the .300WM adds 200-250 yards to what the .308 does in terms of retained velocity and energy.

Using Barnes data, since I like TTSX and LRX bullets and based on 7000 ft altitude:

.308 W, 168g TTSX, 2877fps MV, ..470 B.C
.308 W, 175g LRX, 2728fps MV, ..508 B.C
.300 WM, 175g LRX, 3120fps MV, ..508 B.C

2000 fps retained velocity
----------------------------------
560 yds = .308 W / 168g TTSX
615 yds = .308 W / 175g LRX
825 yds = .300WM / 175g LRX


150fpe retained energy
----------------------------------
590 yds = .308 W / 168g TTSX
610 yds = .308 W / 175g LRX
855 yds = .300WM / 175g LRX



I don't care what bullets or cartridges others use, but it is common sense and simple physics that, in terms of retained energy and velocity, the 308 Win will become marginal long before the .300Win follows suit. Whether that will impact a particular situation depends on the situation.

Put me in the camp of appreciating others experiences and observations. I am reaching the point in life where im looking to add a little variety to my hunting, while recognizing the reality that the learning curve has to be a lot shorter ((!). The fire is a real help in this regard.

That's not common sense, it's just a cut & pasted ballistics table. You won't find much common sense or an answer to the OP's question in a ballistics table.

Max velocity was only 3100fps for starters..

Two different cartridges using the same bullet will have difference capabilities depending on their muzzle velocity. Most children understand this concept at an early age based on what they learn at play throwing balls or bean bags or snow balls or other objects. .

But perhaps you are correct. Some people have a hard time grasping simple facts, like a car with half a tank of fuel can't go as far as when it has a full tank.

Stop making sense. You're cancelling out others emotions.

Ok smart guy. Will a car with a half full tank go farther than a car with a half MTY tank? :-)

Thank you , captain M.O.T.O. Yes, it's abundantly obvious that two different cartridges using the same bullet will have different velocities. But as most children can plainly see, your "answer" is not an answer to the OP's question, because he didn't ask which cartridge will make a bullet go faster. And most children can also see that the amount of gas in a car's tank has absolutely zero bearing on the OP's question, which has to do with how well different cartridges kill elk.

But go ahead, come up with some more irrelevant facts, if it makes you feel good.

The OP’s question was whether people see any difference in killing power. My responses are simply to point out the obvious – that a difference does exist and that at some range they will be visible.



It is an analogy. Tough concept for you, I know. Let me explain. The fuel in the tank represents the energy available to transformed into motion on the part of the car. The velocity of the bullet determines the energy of the bullet that can be transformed into (destructive) motion on the part of the target.



Your responses to my posts are irrelevant to the OP's question. But that’s OK – I know I live rent free in your head. Deal with it. (laughing)

LOL, try answering this one: have you seen any difference on elk between the .308, and the .300 magnum?

This should be interesting.

LOL

Never shot an elk with a .308 but have killed three with a .30-06 and more with a .300WM.

Kills with .30-06 were at 25 yards, 45 yards and 282 yards. Kills with .300WM have ranged from 280 to 400 yards. All ranges lasered or measured using Google Earth.

Small sample but no, I didn't see much difference other than the ranges for the .300WM were much greater and I've recovered bullets when using the .30-06 and have not when using the .300WM.

So in other words, all of your posts on this thread can be summarized as:

"No."

All your posts in response to mine on thsi thread can be summarized as irrelevant. Must be the schits not to be able to ignore me.

Do they shoot 270's any better? Doubt it.

Irrelevant? I think not. Think of my posts as a Public Service Announcement, they might save someone from reading 10,000 words when the gist of those 10,000 words is "no."

Besides, why would I want to ignore you? The entertainment value is off the charts.

peeshooter,

Both Finn Aagaard and John Stuver are convinced they do. In fact Finn wrote an article on the .270 explaining how more than one of his safari clients was much more effective with a .270 Finn used to rent for clients from a gun store in Nairobi.

I am starting to doubt your range of personal experience, as well as ability to learn from hunters who have more experience than you--which is one measure of the ability to learn.

As Will Rogers noted: “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."

Yes.

Source: John Stuver is my father.

the gist of my posts has been that at some range the difference between a .308 Win and .300WM WILL be noticed, but you don't seem to comprehend that or the fact that simple physics is responsible.


Rent free. In your brain.

Too funny, but it looks like you're paying much more rent than I am, sport.

The gist of your posts is really "I can't answer your question because I've never shot an elk with a .308, but I can cut and paste some ballistics tables and point out things you could easily find on your own."

The question the OP asked was really a good one, and it was pretty specifically aimed at those who've used both cartridges. And just like clockwork, the answers were 100% predictable. Very few people who've shot enough elk with both cartridges under different conditions to be able to give good answers, but many who are all too happy to display their vast knowledge of ballistics charts. And not too much mystery as to who would top the list and provide the answer to the question not asked: "what do ballistics tables show."

Any fool can quote ballistics tables. And any fool can draw the obvious conclusion that you keep repeating with a sense of discovery, that "at some range the difference between a .308 Win and .300WM WILL be noticed."

But that doesn't answer the question, does it? You want to talk about "common sense??" Common sense dictates that someone who's never shot an elk with a .308 should be listening, not expounding.

I've used both, and killed quite a few elk with said rounds.

I've never felt under gunned with a .308 while hunting elk, even large, mature bulls.

And FWIW, anyone who says they shoot heavy recoiling rifles as well as rifles with way less recoil are talking out of their ass....

When y’all get tired of peeing on each other’s boots, try the electric fence....

I've shot a half dozen or so elk with each the 308 and 300 (though in my case the Magnum was the 300 WSM).

The farthest I've ever shot an elk was with the 300 WSM, which wasn't very far at around 350 yards. I've taken one bull just over 300 yards with the 308. Otherwise, most of these kills were under 300 yards, with some as close as fifty.

I haven't seen a bit of difference how they kill, including one of my best bulls, an old 7x7, that I took with the 308 and a C&C 165 gr. at 80 yards.

The 300 WSM with a 180 at 3,000 fps seems to make more of an "immediate impression", but I haven't seen how that affects how quickly the elk die.

I'm guessing ranges need to extend well beyond 500 yards to start seeing any difference between the two, and then I'm not really sure what that difference would be? More immediate visual effect most likely. But again, how is a reaction to the hit "killing power"?

What really is "killing power" anyway?

Seems to me at the essence of "killing power" is the ability to accurately put an expanding bullet through the vitals of a game animal at the distance that game is being shot at. For most of us mortals, a lighter recoiling rifle is easier to do that with, so for me at least, the 308 provides more "killing power" at the ranges I hunt elk, and under the right conditions I'd be comfortable out to 500+ yards with the 308.

i have found this to be true as well ...

I have killed 10 or so head with each of these cartridges, and I’ll be damned if I can tell any differences whatsoever in the effectiveness between the two in putting elk on the ground. I still own a number of magnum chambered rifles, but using them to elk hunt has been in my rear view mirror for well over 15 years. CP.

The .30-06 loads I've used were only a few fps faster than top .308 Win loads. Not enough difference to worry about. So while I've never shot an elk with a .308 Win, I have put .308" bullets into them at both .308 Win and .300WM velocities. I didn't see much difference except that the .300WM shots were at much further ranges and, unlike the .308 velocity shots, no bullets were recovered when using the .300WM. All were broadside shots. That's enough difference to for me to choose the .300WM for the longer shots.

My assumption when reading the OP's post was that he was curious what the differences are. The ballistic tables show, if nothing else, the differences in potential, which may or may not be noticed given a few shots at various ranges under different circumstances.

So far I haven't seen the OP complain about my answer. But you do - over and over and over....


Rent.
Free.
In.
Your (tiny).
Brain.

Dont flatter yourself. As the Campfire resident moron you certainly haven't got in anyone's head.

Could be I'm a moron but I'm not too dumb to understand a .300WM has a lot more potential for destruction than a .308 Win, that the difference would be hard to see at close ranges or that they become more visible a longer ranges. Or that trying to define those ranges with any specificity, without knowing the bullet used, target density, angle and impact velocities, is a fool's game.

When you talk about morons you should take a good look in a mirror.

LOL, I'm pretty sure CH doesn't wear boots. He's more of a hushpuppies/sansabelt kind of guy.

Wow, what a retort! Hint, given your proclivity to wounding elk, you're the last one that should be commenting on a thread like this. Especially given you havent even owned a 308.
Expecting a 200 word response that's complete BS..

Haven't even owned a .308 Win? That's news to me as I've had four total and still have two. The two that are gone include a H&R single shot and a Remington M700. The current ones are an AR10 and a Ruger Scout.

I also do load development and reload for Daughter #1's Ruger Hawkeye .308 Win, so I'm pretty familiar with the .308 Win cartridge.

Oh that's right, but you have never shot an elk with one.

I have shot them with a 308 and a 300 savage.

Biggggggg difference here!

Really? I just posted this on another thread....




Addition: I'll take your word for it. However, that .300Savage is a 130gr TTSX pushing 3000.

76 feet per second.........HUGE!

Displacement wins again!!!!😀

Funny, my assumption when reading the OP's post was, he's smart enough to find ballistics tables himself and I don't need to explain them to him. Obviously we differ on that. And my other assumption was, he's interested in the opinions of people who've actually shot elk with the cartridges he asked about. Oh wait, that wasn't an assumption, that was what he said.

And take a hint from BWalker, don't flatter yourself. Your opinions on ballistic gack mean nothing to me. More BS has been written about elk cartridges in "outdoor magazines" and on the internet than almost any other subject you can name. And the common thread is, the purveyors of this BS all liberally quote ballistics tables, and talk about foot-lbs of energy. Any time the subject comes up here, you continue that tradition. You're the only guy here who thinks ballistics tables are the answer to the OP's question, that's the niche you occupy, and that's why I commented on your posts. I'd hate to see any new elk hunters here buy your line of BS and think their .308 is inadequate for elk. Because it just ain't so.

Now smoke pole u picking on a 300 savage?

Well said.

I bet you never thought you'd read that!

Not picking on the 300 Savage, just battue. That MF-er lives rent free, in my head, I just can't help myself.

Which would kill this thread faster, a .308 Win or a .300 Win Mag?

I have gotten to know several African PH’s very well. They all tell the same story. Remember typically their clients shoot their rifles at least daily and sometimes multiple times a day.

Not one has ever seen a client shoot well with a 338 or larger day after day. All say that about a third of 300 Magnum users begin shooting well but that the 300 fellows’ shooting gets worse as the hunt progresses. The other 2/3 never shoot well with their 300’s.

The best shooting generally is done with a 270 or 30/06. One of the best performances was turned in by a 12 YO boy shooting a 260 which his father had down-loaded so the little guy could handle it.

Check the ballistics tables. All answers are found there.

On second thought, you'd have to ask someone who's killed threads with both the .308 and the .300 magnum. Check with coyotehunter.

You have had a serious reading comprehension problem in the past and that continues to today. I’ve never said a ”.308 is inadequate for elk”. Never even suggested it. The three elk I’ve killed with moderate .30-06 loads that equaled or barely exceeded .308 Win velocities would agree with me that .308 Win velocities ARE adequate for elk.

My point has always been that each cartridge has its limitations. Those limitations, especially when comparing very similar or identical bullets at different velocities, can be easily compared. Using identical bullets, the destructive potential of a .300WM and .308 Win are identical once the .300WM bullet has slowed down to a given .308 Win velocity. Ballistics tables simply provide an provide an unbiased description of where that occurs and show that for any given .308 Win velocity the .300WM provides the same velocity 200 or more yards downrange.

Why is it important? At some point, every expanding bullet fired from a .308 Win will fall below the velocity at which it expands reliably, if at all, providing a limit to the effective range of the .308 Win and that load. A .300WM with the same bullet won’t hit that limit for another 200+ yards. Bullet manufacturers often provide the minimum and maximum velocities at which their bullets are intended to function as designed. Ballistic tables allow hunters to compare the downrange velocities of their loads to the operating velocities provided by the manufacturers or other criteria they may select. Ballistic tables can’t tell you exactly what a bullet will do on impact but they do provide a guide as to their destructive potential.

I’ve hunted elk with a .44 Magnum, .257 Roberts, .30-30, and .375 Winchester and never considered any of them inadequate. At the same time I knew from shooting at the range and at animals they all had different capabilities, with the .257 Roberts being the best for longer range work. Those differences in capability show up pretty clearly in ballistic tables, too.

It isn’t a tough concept but one you apparently have a problem comprehending.

Thanks for your concern, but I think I can comprehend your posts, convoluted as they may be. And I will concede your point. Not the one you rolled out above saying each cartridge has its limitations, the one you made a few pages back::



In fact I'll go one further and say, you WILL notice a difference between the .308 and .300 Win. even before you shoot an elk with them.

If you use factory ammo, you WILL notice that the .300 Win ammo costs more.

If you reload, you WILL notice that it takes more powder to fill the .300 Win. case.

When you take a cartridge out of the box, you WILL notice that the .300 Win case is bigger.

And when you pull the trigger, you WILL notice that the .300 WIn. has more recoil.


But as far as answering the OP's question, I can't do it because I haven't used both to shoot elk with. How about you?

This right here

That's what I was thinking. Kinda like 338 Marlin vs 338 Lapua. Answer=338WM.

I left the "tree-hundred" at home......

Yep II

IF a 308 = 300 W M.....THEN 30-30 = 308 = 300 WM = = SARCASM


Jerry

If I may add something personally significant. I appreciate your considering me a MF-er and not a sport. Your recognition of desirable human characteristics is noted.

Now if the difference is 200+/- a little on Elk, where would one be prudent to choose one over the other on say Antelope. Do the ballistic tables take into consideration the fragility factor of different species. Fragility factor, surely it is pertinent in the killing of Game and should it be incorporated into ballistic data?

Have killed one Elk and one Antelope, both with a 300WM Mag and both at approximately the same distance. The Antelope seemed much more impressed with the initial thump, and significantly so in that it almost tore the front third lose.

Much younger at the time, however now I think I could have pulled both off with a .300Savage. Therefore from no actual personal experience I think the .300 Savage an ideal Elk cartridge.

Addition: for the more serious among us.

[quote=scenarshooter]

I left the "tree-hundred" at home......
-------------------------------------


Now Don't Do That !


Altho I have an irrational affinity for the 300 WM >>> I don't think/feel it is the MINIMUM elk cartridge.

It DOES shoot flatter, making hitting long shots EASIER.
It's easy to hit, kill WT at 400 yds so Elk would be in trouble.


Jerry

It went back thru ALL the thread and couldn't find the post/reference to 76 FT. Maybe a post lost during ERROR.

I don't know WHAT distance, WHAT B Cs were used, etc.
? ? ? ? ?

Jerry

This right here is highly debatable. Not that I'm going to debate it with you, but if you have a scope that dials accurately and a laser rangefinder, "flat shooting" is not something that's much of a factor any more.

Any like Scenarshooter alluded to earlier, less recoil = more accurate shooting for most people. So "easier" is debatable.

[quote=Mule Deer]

I am starting to doubt your range of personal experience, as well as ability to learn from hunters who have more experience than you--which is one measure of the ability to learn.

As Will Rogers noted: “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."
----------------------------------------


Man OH Man, I wish I'd had that reference in the past on occasion. A few Xs I've been SCORCHED because I have not
killed X or Y and so I wasn't qualified to expound.


One response I had was something like this;
"The guy who knows ONLY what he has experienced is an ignoramus < EDIT correct word.

The majority of what WE know WE have learned from OTHERS.

Who told You what YOUR name is ? (rhetorical)


If I was going to change my SIG line, it would be THAT quote. Thanks

Jerry

NOR am I going to debate it with you.

Jerry

Dudes. You both left out the ballistics tables. Please cut and paste some, and then explain what they mean. That's the only way to really know.

Your logic is flawless, as usual.

Might mention here that a local guy I am acquainted with, a little younger than I am, sort of semi-geezerish, has been using the same Remington 722 .300 Savage as his big game rifle since he was in high school. The quarry includes everything from antelope to plenty of elk. He handloads, but only because factory ammo is hard to find, not get another 100 fps or use a magic bullet.

Believe he would be puzzled by this thread, but he ain't a Campfire kind of guy.

I’m beginning to wonder if I am. 😀

this post answer for the win ! GRIN

Will ignored the original thinkers....


“There can be no progress, if there is no original thinking. And there can be no original thinking, if you stick strictly to the known.”
― Abhijit Naskar, Lives to Serve Before I Sleep

Stand a little closer, Peter. I don't want to pee on your boots, I want to pee into 'em.

Its "venerable" why do we need ballistics? <G>

Thank you.

Also I should add,
Is this versus/vs. or verses question ?
I haven’t seen one verse yet!

It's actually chapter and verse.

i've killed three elk using .308" bullets launched at .308 Win muzzle velocities. The elk don't know or care if a .308 Win fired it or not and it makes no difference to the validity of the results - If the same bullet is launched at the same velocity by two different cartridges (.308 Win or .30-06 in this case), the downrange ballistics are the same.

>> naw i am not into male - male bonding sex as i think you may be ?

Yet a few I can think of around here claim otherwise.

I'm wondering why I started this thread!!!!!

Because you are trying to convince your self you need a 300 savage!

The manly wapiti medicine!

My avatar is ample proof......Anus 95 packing out a raghorn harvested with a 🤡 U guessed it.

300 savage.

They'll do that to you around here.

So the advent of rangefinders & dialing hunting scopes has made “flat shooting” less essential- the ability to point & shoot out to 350+ yards is still a huge advantage in open county hunting where your opportunity may be brief. The confidence that a “on hair” hold works saves very critical time. If you have all day dialing to the exact yardage is great but all day isn’t always available,

Spec

You noticed that too ? huh

NO ONE ‘usually’ mentions the time involved in twisting turrets.
Gotta range first, read chart second, twist third, THEN aim/shoot!!!


Justsayin

Jerry

If you pay attention, the real long range shooters are not all that into rushing. Making the shot is what gives them the juice. The aim on hair group mostly don’t qualify as long range shooters.

Justsayen

I won't address 300 vs 308 on elk, but will address trajectory. Out to 300 yards every bolt gun I've ever owned shoots flat enough to hit any big game animal with no more than a 1-2" hold over. At 400 or more none of them have shot flat enough to make the shot unless I knew the exact range and compensated for it. There is a big enough difference between 400 and 450 to make for a complete miss if I guess wrong. I'd still need a range finder along with either dots or dials even with a 300 WM. In reality there is only a 25 yard window around 300-350 yards where the flatter trajectory of the 300 is an advantage over 308. Twisting dials is more precise, but I agree too slow for most hunting. But a scope with multiple aiming points is precise enough and a lot faster.

And being honest about your skills is the key. Sure a 300 WM is more effective at longer range than a 308. But when I came to the realization that around 300 to MAYBE 400 yards was the limits of my skill level I sold my 300 magnum rifles and have hunted with 308 for the last 10-12 years.

First, thank you JMR, you took the words right out of my mouth. It's a common misconception that magnums extend your maximum point blank range by a wide margin but they don't. This is getting way off topic but since jwall brought it up, here's an article by Ron Spomer on this very subject and he pegs the difference in MPBR between the .308 and .300 Win. on a 10-inch target as 320 vs 350 yards.

https://www.outdoorlife.com/elk-cartridge-showdown-308-win-vs-300-win-mag-vs-338-win-mag/

Second jwall, if you two noticed the same thing then you both saw something that wasn't there because you're talking apples and oranges here. Your first quote (the one I commented on) talked about "long shots." Most people who shoot at distances that allow them to take "long shots" with confidence don't consider anything within their MPBR a long shot. I was talking about long range, you guys are talking about MPBR and they're not one and the same.

Third, with respect to using the range finder and the time it takes, if you guys are taking "350+ yard shots" and "holding on hair" in open country without using a rangefinder to confirm the range then you're both knuckleheads.

Some scope reticles can be used as a relatively quick and accurate rangefinder out to most MPBR ranges, if one closely knows the size of the target. However, they are still a rangefinder and not a guess.

However, they are obviously more of a guess than an accurate RF. And again, the LR group does their best to eliminate all guessing.

True on the RF reticles but that takes a lot of practice with the specific animal you're hunting. It's still not very precise, and we're talking elk here. I'm betting that a guy from Arkansas who rarely hunts elk is not up to the task.

No doubt, and a RF has become something I don't want to leave home without. Very seldom need it for our woods hunting, but we usually are watching fields during the last hours. Some of which stretch to 400 plus a little. At distance, most that know what they are doing usually get a decent rest, they are shooting at stationary animals and ranging, dialing, etc are part of doing it right.

Addition: I'm no LR shooter, however watching those that are makes it obvious they make the time to get it as correct as possible. If they can't do it, they pass....

It's a common <misconception >that magnums extend your maximum point blank range by a wide margin but they don't.

This is getting way off topic but since ONE >jwall brought it up, here's an article by Ron Spomer on this very subject and he pegs the difference in MPBR between the .308 and .300 Win. TWO > on a 10-inch target as 320 vs 350 yards.

https://www.outdoorlife.com/elk-cartridge-showdown-308-win-vs-300-win-mag-vs-338-win-mag/


Second jwall, if you two noticed the same thing then you both saw something that wasn't there because you're talking apples and oranges here. Your first quote (the one I commented on) talked about "long shots." Most people who shoot at distances that allow them to take "long shots" with confidence don't consider anything within their MPBR a long shot. I was talking about long range, you guys are talking about MPBR and they're not one and the same.

Third, with respect to using the range finder and the time it takes, if you guys are taking "350+ yard shots" and "holding on hair" in open country THREE > without using a rangefinder to confirm the range then you're both knuckleheads.
-----------------------------------------

I am NOT debating you. Just pointing out where YOU are WRONG.

1.Twas NOT I who brought it up. RE READ, comprehension.

2. Neither of us stated 10" target --> DeerS & ELKs are DEEPER than 10"
...b. MY MPBR is 400 yds > just so you know (something !)
EVEN at 500 yds with a 270 W or BETTER -- I KNOW the drop in trajectory.

3. I did NOT say I did NOT use a rangefinder !! I USE one while scanning the OPEN area BEFORE game is seen.


I am OUT ! I want you to have some accurate facts.


Jerry

LOL, too funny. And chickensh** to boot.

Just sayin,

They either have or make the time or pass. And that is what you don't want to acknowledge....If they run out of time, they accept it as part of the game they play....,

VII. Thou shalt learn to shoot as swiftly as the hawk flieth, and thou shalt not fiddle-f*** with thy gear, nor adjust thy scope, nor set up thy bipod, for thou hast not time. - 7th commandment from David Petzal’s 10 Commandments of Elk Hunting.

This is why my .300 Weatherby is zeroed at 250 yards with a quality scope with no turret twisting option. All the elk I have shot at seemed to fall down quickly to avoid being shot again. I have also killed elk with my .308 usually at shorter ranges in timber. Do you need a .300 Magnum? No.... not about need for me. Happy Trails

MY MAN ! !


Jerry

Understood battue:

I'm not speaking for anyone else. I try to be AS prepared AS possible.

There have been a few Xs ( last year was one ) that a Buck I WANTED didn't even give me time to shoulder my rifle.

Jerry

That I understand, the same thing happens often to those that still hunt or jump them close.

Not exactly our experience re VII. We have watched elk for hours (at 300 to 600 yards) before taking a shot, on multiple occasions. As a general rule, we've also found that the further away the elk are, the more time you have.

All my scoped rifles are MPBR zeroed for a 6" diameter target. For the bolt rifles it usually works out between 250 yards and a little over 300 yards, depending on the cartridge and specific load used. That generally sets me up for shots to 400 without adjusting anything except holdover. Beyond 400 I use the BDC reticle in my scopes, as only one (my .257 Roberts) has a vertical turret adjustment. The BDC reticles have been adequate for me to hit clay pigeons at 600 with a variety of rifles, including my .257 Roberts, 6.5-06AI, .280 Rem, 7mm RM, multiple .30-06, .300WM and .338WM. Don't always get a hit - and in fact usually get a miss with most of the rifles, but the misses are not by much and hit rates have been as high as 75-80%. The great thing about BDC reticles is, with a little practice at 300-600 yards, they are more than accurate enough for antelope to elk - and they are fast.

That said, I do plan for more turrets in the future, but in combination with BDC reticles as with my Roberts. And like you , I haven't found my .300WM to be necessary for any shot I've ever taken. But the first rifles I grab for elk season tend to be are my 7mm RM, .300WM and .338WM.

jwall, I know you're not debating with me, so maybe you can explain how this all works to some of the other guys. At 500 yards where you KNOW the drop in trajectory, do you think holdover is just as good as matching your POA with your POI? In fact, do you think they're even close? Do you routinely shoot big game animals at 500 yards using holdover?

Second, you made the point that using a rangefinder and such takes time for guys who use turrets, yet you've found a way to use your rangefinder before the game shows up. How does that work, and why can't a guy twisting turrets also "scan the OPEN area BEFORE" the game is seen? Is there something about twisting turrets that prevents that??

Thanks!!

This 500 yd crap is just that, crap. Should you get a shot exactly at 500 yds, just imagine your out hunting and get a 500yd shot. No problem, just use the appropriate gizmo in your scope, hold right on and in theory drop the animal. Good for you. How many shots do you think you'll get at exactly 500yds? What if it's 533 yds and you don't know it? Let's say its 533yds and you know it because of your range finder. So how much hold over with the right 500 yds hash mark in your scope to cover the drop from 500 yds to 533yds? Anybody go that right off the top of their head? Between 500 aand 533 yds, how far will your bullet drop? How about between 458yds and 500yds or maybe 400 and 458 yds? All the gizmos in the world won't help you much at the in between ranges! Practiced sniper's are simply that, well practiced sniper's, damn few hunter's are in that class!

You might notice that bad word holder has showed up with your ultra modern expensive scope. Will your $2000 Night Force tell you what you need at 533 yds?

My ballistic program, verified and printed out and taped to my stock will. Even w/ my cheapo SS 3-9 I can dial it or use the reticle. It is not really hard at all. finding the critters can be hard, and getting a position that is steady enough to make that shot can be hard too.


mike r

With todays range finders, quality bullets / powders, ballistics calculators, scopes The shots mentioned above are not hard for guys who practice on regular basis out to those ranges. While BDCs work great if you know your rifle. I wanted more precision and I have slowly moved away from them and either have a custom CDS dial or have my charts handy to dial. I practice to 600 yards on 8" gong and there are times I am 3 for 3 and times 1 for 3. So, I know my limits and obviously conditions in the filed have to taken into consideration.

Guys or gals who only shoot once a year to make sure their rifles is sighted in at 100 yards do not apply to this longer range stuff. And it really is their responsibility to make judgement.
Just like it's your call not to make long distance shots.

I've been shooting my 9 mil & 40 SW so I haven't been here in a while.

I actually HAD most of my response typed and I hit something and my screen ENLARGED and I couldn't move it... so I'll
try again.

FIRST and Most important answer is NO I don't routinely shoot WT at 500 yds. I have killed WT AT 400 yds using MY MPBR using 270 Win, 7 RM, & 300 WM.
I've SEEN a few WT at 500 yds but they were moving thru a cutover with sagegrass, pine and oak regrowth and would NOT shoot. I never had one in the area of 500 yds in the clear long enuff to justify attempting a shot.

I've been using 400 yd MPBR since the 80s so I'm familiar and confident with it.
Using 270 W, 130 HSP @ 3100 fps and MY MPBR at 500 yds the drop is +/- 25".
I routinely use my 7 RM & 300 WM which shoots similar BC at HIGHER velocity than the 270.

An adult Bull Elk (which this thread discusses) is deeper from spine to sternum than 24" so hold OVER is minimal.
By OVER I mean above the spine.

Also from 400--500 yds I'm NOT trying to hit a 4 or 5 " target. Spine to Brisket is much larger.
So my POI has several INCHES in which to land.

I would NOT argue that Ranging & Turrets are less accurate. Certainly they SHOULD be MORE exact, NO question.
And YES guys who use LRF and Turrets sure can scan an area and mark landmarks AHEAD of time WHEN there is time.

I Still Hunt only - no stands - and I'd expect to hunt similarly in Mule Deer/Elk territory.

** Important ** I was addressing still hunting WHEN opportunities DON'T give you much or any time for adjustments.
That happens to ALL hunters in many situations. With a MPBR of 400 yds. NO time is needed to decipher trajectory.

Last year this guy showed up ONCE during our modern gun season,,



This pic was taken during our Antlerless ONLY season.
During Buck season WE saw each other at the SAME time at twice the distance >>> he EXITED before I could shoulder my rifle.

I have Read & RE Read this post and I hope I've answered your questions.

I will not argue with anyone about MY MPBR. I've been using it @ 40 years.

IF I didn't answer a question, I'd try again.

Jerry

Don –

It doesn’t make any difference to me if people use BDC reticles or turrets or both. I have one rifle with a vertical turret but it also has a BDC scope. With that rifle I’ve used both, depending on the situation.

While I can’t speak for jwall, your questions are good. I verify the drops in 100 yard increments out to 600 yards, both for the BDC reticles and the turret. Once confirmed I print out the drop tables in 25-yard increments and make a diagram of where the 100-yard increments are in the reticle (they rarely match up exactly with the reticle marks). I also load the data into my ballistic app on my phone so I can adjust the data in the field for altitude. I use a laser in the field, so I know the ranges fairly accurately.

We spend a lot of time sitting, waiting and glassing. When we sit we use the lasers, noting the range to various landmarks. I carry a tripod and set it up whenever we sit. When animals come into view we already have a pretty good idea of their range and often have no need for an additional range check. When stalking game we normally have no need of the lasers or anything but the center crosshairs because the ranges tend to be 300 or under - and usually far less.

So what happens when we have a tweener shot at longer ranges? Not really a problem. You ask about 533 yards as an example. At that range you more than likely have plenty of time to laser, check your range card, set up a bipod/tripod, turn turrets if you have them and/or use your BDC reticle. Worst case with the BDC on my .300WM or .338WM, the difference in drop between 533 and 525 or 550 is about 2.0” to 2.5”, up or down depending on which range card entry is used. At 588 yards the difference is about 3” to 4” from 575 or 600 yards. You can easily use the BDC and adjust a couple inches up or down for the tweener shots. Do that and you shouldn’t be off more than a couple inches at most.

I used exactly that procedure taking my longest shot ever a few years back. I was sitting in an impromptu blind made of sage in open country. I had about 45 minutes to laser the ground around me and paid special attention to 400 to 600 yards. When elk did come in they were bunched up, no shot, and when a cow finally separated I didn’t have any time to laser it or check my range card – but I knew the range was pretty close to 500 yards from the previous lasering. One shot using the BDC dropped it. I later measured the range as 487 yards. Elapsed time from when the elk appeared to when I took the shot was measured in minutes. I was following the elk with the scope as they passed by and the range increased. From the time the cow separated to the time I fired was maybe 5 seconds, probably less. The BDC let me make the shot. Not sure I could have if I had to fiddle with a turret.

Thanks guys, lots of good info.

Dre, using the distance that you can consistently hit an 8"plate as your personal standard for shooting critters will keep you honest... and humble. And remind you of the affect of wind.


mike r

Hunt them hump backed anaconda necked sum beaches with a bear super grizzly 50 pound recurve.

When you get a 300 savage in yer hand.............you swear u got a freakin cannon!

Jesus Christ I’ve seen it all... smokepole has smoked waaay too much pole..

Twenty-two pages with no homosexual references, until your first post.

Nice work, Naomi.

11 pages of you being a dick, just to be a dick, not surprisingly though, it's your mo, and your not even really good at it... Great work being a cuunt to Jerry as well, that speaks volumes. Take your mood stabilizer, get some more rest, or don't post drunk.

Btw, since I've killed probably 3x or better elk than you, I'd 300 mag everytime. That's from someone who's done some stunt shooting too.

PNW Mafia is back 😂😎

LOL, coming from you, saying I'm being a dick, that does call for some self-reflection since you wrote the book on being a dick. Kindly point out where I was wrong. And then go get your moderator badge renewed. PS, to jerry, my apologies for being a dick.



Show me anywhere I said people shouldn't use a .300 WM or it's not a fine elk cartrirdge. And quit being a dick, implying I said something I didn't.

If you’ll pay attention, I’m a dick to folks that are [bleep]. Fuuck you’ll argue if I tell you it’s raining here in Lewis county for Christ sakes.

😂😂 where’s Fredrick??

Right, just like I panned the .300 WM. And this may come as a disappointment to you, but I don't follow your posts.

Rick still has him chained in his basement as a rape toy for being a bad boy on the Fire. 😂🤣😎

I’m on the couch, with the Adirondacks behind my place!!!

Rick where’s the key we need to liven this bitch up a little!! 😂😂

Didn't him and Steelhead do a murder/suicide together?

Most of the jackoffs on here are dicks, including me.

I helped a friend pack out a bull on MT’s 2019 opener that was killed with a 308. 165 GameKing went in ahead if the shoulder, got into the lungs and a bump under the skin behind the opposite shoulder.
308 is gonna be shorter and lighter and easier to carry, in some rifles very lightweight. Sure the 300 will have more go, but unless you are laying on your nutz with a dead solid rest, you wouldnt wanna be shooting the 300 any further than the 308. I am not downing the 300, have killed elk with one and its a great getter.

AS close as 2 years ago I would have chosen a 300WM or <get ready for it> an 8 mm REM Mag !

Today and I'm very serious.... I WOULD take my Tikka T 3X Lite 7 mm Rem Mag.

I have deer hunted it 'almost' exclusively the past 2 seasons -2018 & 2019

Jerry

I think this calls for a .300 WM vs 7 mm RM for deer hunting thread......

Ol man has a 8 mag, 700 classic. Shootin sumbitch, he sure likes it.

That’s a fine looking Lab you got there! Happy Trails

A 7mm RM is an fine choice for elk. Just purchased one for a SIL and he plans to hunt elk with it this fall. I used one exclusively for 20+ years starting in '82 and took my last elk in 2015 with my buddy's lefty 7mm RM - 411 yards, 4 steps and down.

Thank ya sir, she’s a dandy

7mm-08 vs 308

What's the best whitetail deer bullet for a 6.5 Creedmoor?

I'd like it but there would be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

A 180 doing 3200 fps. Makes hitting at long distance easier.

Hey Jud, you oughtn talk about your Dad like that !



Jerry

You are being a HOLE !

Jerry

Mike not from me.

AFAIC (as far as I’m concerned) BOTH are good candidates.

I’d recommend to take:
1. The one you shoot best.

2. The one that’s lightest.

3. The one you like best.

To me, there’s no wrong answer.

Jerry

I think this might be a trick question......

Naw, as we "mature" we get confused and 'forget' where we are.


Whitetail in an Elk thread ?

Creedmoor in a 308 VS 300 W M thread ?

Dementia?.... Alzheimer's ?

Call the Nursing Home.

Jerry

I prefer to think of myself as a dick, but whatever.

Just please don't tell dad again Wally, man is he gonna be sore at me!!

Pat, I'm not certain, but I'd happily use any of these I've got on hand for the rest of my elk hunting life

Dang, you’ve got all the good ones there Brad. That 140 Accubond is a devil in my 264 and 6.5 Swede. The Creed gets the 139 Scenar and man, not a loser in the bunch.

Definitely a trick question! LOL!

I'd say you're all set....and then some!

Pat,

I'm guessing that since you didn't use a .300 magnum on the big bull in your photo, that you didn't "step up" to a .338? ;-)

Hahahaha! Actually the largest bull I've ever taken with a rifle was one I shot with a .257 Weatherby at 385 yards, and I'm damn glad I had that rifle along.

He was leaving the country, along with 7-8 cows,( bumped by other hunters) and luckily he stopped and looked back, before disappearing into a cedar jungle. There was no time to range, just point and shoot. I put a 120gr partition through both lungs from prone.

It was sighted for a 300 yard zero.

Good deal! The .257 Weatherby does indeed work on long, quick shots.

Or even short, quick shots. In 2012, on a hunt west of Wilsall, my hunting partner killed a good 6x6 at somewhere between 100-150 yards with the same bullet. There wasn't much time for the shot, but he put it in the right place--and the 120 exited. The bull made it about 75 yards before dropping--but probably wouldn't have made it that far except for the fact that ran down a very steep slope--and then ran head-on into a very big Doug fir, obviously dead on its hooves.

Thank You sir:

That's been my point IN this thread.

Jerry

REDUX !

If memory serves, I've watched 8 elk die via .308 with various standard construction bullets and about 20 with the .300 Win Mag (plus two red stags) with the same general types of bullets, at short to mid ranges. Nothing real big mind you (save one red stag)....mainly rags and cows. I can honestly say I noticed zero difference in the killing effectiveness between the two rounds.

I got over my magnumitus when I was about 30-32. I just have no desire to shoot those big boomers anymore. The two red stags I shot with the .300 Win Mag were with borrowed rifles...else I'd of used something significantly smaller.

I have taken quite few deer and elk with with a .308 Win and my .300 Weatherby. The Bee is one of the most accurate rifles that I own and I can shoot it well. It is a grinder from the bench, however. But I’ve never had to fire it multiple times at elk either. At the moment of truth in that fleeting moment I never have to wonder if I brought enough gun. Same would go for a .300 Winchester Junior Magnum...
Happy Trails

I took out my .308 Norma.Yesterday afternoon. It's a 1903 rebore. The knob on the bolt used to smack my hand on recoil. So I bubbaded up put in a vice and bent the knob outta the way. Any ways we got about two feet of snow yet and it's straight ice on the roads.

I put the rifle in a primos two pronged fun rest on a old Bausch and Lomb tripod. Shot kneeling cradling the contraption. I had 200 grain reloads.

BOOM! It bowled me right the smuck over! The neighbors were unloading hay. If they were watching I am probabally gonna hear about it at the post office!

I hit the target, and promptly switched to shooting it of a gate post!

Jerry,
While you make a decent point, I wouldn’t be using Petzal to give it much credence. Petzal while he seems to be a funny guy and knowledgeable re rifles, is a gun writer and not a hunting writer. There are a few who have posted on this thread who I’m sure have shot many more Elk. And as mentioned, have done it repeatedly with something along the lines of a .308 and at distance. And reading their past posts, I’m pretty sure at some time or another, they may have turned a turret and took their practiced time to do so.

They have also went into the back country on their own to kill Elk. From what I’ve read and heard, I doubt Petzal has ever been on an Elk hunt that wasn’t guided. That isn’t a bad thing, however that and the above does cast some doubt on the originality and basis of his 10 Commandants of Elk hunting.

battue

Thanks for the update.

I want to say this for ANYONE reading this thread:

*** It doesn't matter to me what rifle/cartridge ANYONE shoots/hunts with.*** <

This thread is 'supposedly' about the 308 Win OR 300 WM. I have only given MY preference. It's what I like and
CHOOSE to hunt anything with. ( a preposition is not a good thing to end a sentence *with* lol)

The 308 is NOT the only round that I 'choose' NOT to hunt *with* < again> lol

I don't want to offend or insult ANYONE, WE all have the 'freedom' to choose what we want.


As I said earlier in another post - Today I'd CHOOSE my Lite 7 RM= that's a different cartridge.


Jerry

Didn't mean the post to be confrontational with regard what you choose to use. However, you definitely used the 10 commandment post to vindicate your choice or choices. Just pointing out that Pretzal, in my opinion is a questionable witness....

We post, others respond. Sometimes in agreement, sometimes not....



Hell, I still plan on using Leupold scopes in the immediate future....

10 years ago I killed a really big black bear across a canyon right before dark with a .308 at 492 yards, after spinning my turret to the correct setting. There was no way to cut the distance,

as he was working his way towards heavy cover when I took the shot....That would have been a very difficult holdover shot with any rifle. I was glad I had that rifle, and it's capacity, along that evening.

scenar

Understand. Also I told 'smokey' that 'twisters & turners' certainly are/can be effective 'WHEN' you have time to use them.

a 308 @ 492 yds would be harder to point & shoot than....

a 270 Win, 7mm RM, 300 WM, etc.

Glad it worked for you.


Jerry

That's why I carry one of each.

I didn't misunderstand you and wasn't attempting to take exception.

Printed words can't portray our inflection, UNLESS we use editor and make it obvious.
No problem battue at all.

Jerry

LOL, I can't believe you broke one of Petzal's 10 commandments. Somebody get this man a subscription to Outdoor Life, he needs to read up on this stuff.

My original quote that Jerry commented on was posted in jest to lighten up the conversation. Some folks on here just get too butt hurt when anything that they don’t agree with 100% is posted. Petzal’s dry wit beats most of the dross posted on here. Happy Trails

Yeah, ain't that something? Some people will go so far as to call you an A-hole if you do that.

Don't take offense. Some agree, some don't. Some think others are funny and some don't...Jerry took it serious, I thought it was dumb on Pretzals part, not yours...

In addition the serious LR people here pay the big dollars for those expensive scopes for reasons. One of which is the ability to consistently dial....They are not all that much into hold over....or set and forget....

The thing is, I agree with jerry, as far as flat-shooting being an advantage within your MPBR.

But I disagreed with his statement that flat-shooting magnums make hitting at "long distances" easier. Because we are using different definitions for "long distance."

I think where Jerry and I got of the rails was when he said he wasn't going to debate me, just tell me that I'm wrong. How does that even work?

Excluding my ,22;s which aren't legal here in Colorado, every centerfire rifle in my safes is an "elk rifles" with the right load.

The only difference is what I consider their effective range. While I use 2000fps and 1500fpe as a guideline for retained velocity and energy, that's all it is - a reference point for comparing various loads. Some of my rifle loads don't have 2000fps at the muzzle and my .44 Mag handgun loads are more like 1530fps and 1250fpe at the muzzle.

The real question for me is the maximum range at which the bullet used in a particular load will retain enough velocity and energy to perform as desired - meaning reliable but controlled expansion with good weight retention and penetration even if heavy bone is hit. This obviously depends on bullet construction as well as impact velocity. Ballistic charts won't provide exact details as to how a load will perform in a given situation but, when coupled with knowledge of the specific bullet construction, they can help people make more informed choices and decisions.

"Smokey", I promise you that I did not get off rail. It's simply that I have used MY method for +/- 40 yrs and I
KNOW how to use it. I ALSO said, I would NOT debate it with you and later with anyone.

I Don't have a problem with you, battue, scenarshooter, or MOST people. The ones that aggravate me are those who
simply declare my way is wrong and their's is right or better.

I don't come here looking to argue and debate. I will discuss as long as it is amiable.

It doesn't make any diff to me if Petzal was serious or joking. He expressed MY preference.


I hope everyone has a good day.


Jerry

Jerry, I'm not arguing with you about what you shoot or how you use it. I'm not sure how you got that idea. The only thing I argued with was your general statement that magnum cartridges make it easier to hit what you're aiming at, at "long ranges." Like I said, it depends on how you define long range.

If you go to a shindig like scenarshooter's annual long-range extravaganza, you won't see many if any of the guys there shooting .300 WMs. You'll see lots of 6.5's and 6 mm's, and lots of suppressors. The thing they all have in common is low recoil. Because without a doubt, low recoil helps you hit what you're shooting at, at long ranges.

The following quote in ON P 21 per Your ?? and My response to you.






Jerry

OK......where did I argue with you about your MPBR? Or tell you you shouldn't use a .300WM?

Coyote hunter you are not getting what is trying to be communicated to you IMO.

Your ballistic rehtoric is only half of the equation. The other half is the ability to pull of the shot accurately.

You are assuming every firearm own you is equal in accuracy. As you increase distance inherent accuracy is amplified.

You are also assuming every firearm you own is just as " handy " for lack of a better term.

A two inch group at 100 becomes 14 inches at 700 I believe. So the amount of " flatness" is a mute point IMO.

A personal deal I have is when I hunt on my Grey Mollie Mule. I use a carbine. Because she don't like a rifle barrel in her shoulder and balks. Before I figured this out she bucked my ass off! A take down might even bee safer, or put the firearm on the pack mule.

Or pack the beach, or let my buddy ride her.

Which is why I roll with a brake on my 300 RUM.

Personally I find I shoot a pistol grip more accurately than a straight or English shot gun style grip.

It freaking blows cuz I like eyeballing the straight grips better.

Shooting straight english style stocks good requires a certain style. Having a good looking las along to eyeball is part of the proper style....

(Smoke prefers his thicker-"much thicker"-so ignore any criticism he may inject.)

Nice picture.

An English driven shoot accompanied by a fair haired Las shooting companion is a bucket list item....

Don't forget the tall rubber boots. She'll need 'em.

The lady is an experienced shooter and has her own. LeChameau....Me, I'm just a LaCrosse Burley guy, but she puts up with me....

Better make 'em hip boots, the longer this goes on, the deeper it gets......

After a long, tedious stalk, and sure "point and shoot" shot, this buck had other ideas, and took off chasing another buck out of his territory. I waited patiently for over an hour for him to return to his does. Evidently the rut was over and he lost interest.

It was dead calm, so I put in 3.8 mils, and killed him with one shot in his bed.

For me it's not about how far I can shoot, it's about killing with one shot, cleanly. If I'm wondering how far I can shoot, I shoot steel with a spotter. You'll find out fast what you're abilities are if keep track of first round hits,

while shooting steel, especially if you're dealing with any wind.

Beautiful buck!!

Thanks!

And I apologize for putting up a picture of an antelope in an elk hunting thread....I haven't killed many elk at long range.

Perhaps if we can fit in some Fly fishing in Scotland....

That works for most, I think.

Smoke just posted in the workout thread he is going also. You should grab a Lass and join in.

Apology accepted, post some more!!

Hey man ! No apology needed AFAIC. That's a beautiful lope and gorgeous scene.
Do it again, Do it again.


Jerry

Reading his posts and seeing the pictures, it’s pretty evident the 300 win mag/215 hybrid combo is wicked.

MY MAN ! !

I think that fits the majority of my hunts for about anything, ha.