It's all here! New gun, scope, dies and components. My research indicates Reloader 15 is a solid performer with the 120-130 gr class of bullets for the 6.5x47 Lapua. I load Reloader 22 & 25 and am aware of it's sensitivity to temp swings. I read where some think Reloader 15 does the same. I'm not looking for heresay. I'm looking for individuals who actually witness temp swings when using Reloader 15.

Anyone!

Alan

My experience is with a .308Win. I have to add 2MOA to my usual 600 yard zero when running RL15 with temps hittting freezing and below.

Let's make sure we are talking about the same thing here. If you leave your ammo outside overnight, that's one thing. But you need to be aware that the air is denser when it's cold and this will slow down the bulllet faster. So it is important to attribute the impact difference properly.

If RL-15 creates that much variation at 600 just by its temperature, I would say it's a crappy powder that should never be used for anything related to accuracy. I suspect that most, if not all the impact variation is due to the denser air; 2 MOA is a great deal for 600 yards.

Well.... I don't have to add 2MOA to my Varget loads under the same conditions. RL-15 kinda caught me by surprise.

I add more powder for the cold and POI is close as it is during the hot weather. Typical 33 grain load gets bumped to 33.4 this is my plan for this Sunday as it is again time for our first Sunday of the month 600 yd match

Well, I only use Varget anymore. But did you have to add anything with Varget loads? I find that I have about 1 MOA or so at 1000 yards between temps in the 90s and temps in the 40s.

I am just shocked, and I mean shocked, that you need 2 MOA with RL-15. I did not realize it was that bad a powder.

The only difference i can see in cold and hot weather with Rel 15 is in my 338-06 Ack which I'm running max, in hot weather the primers are flat and in cold weather the primers or normal. I really need to back off a grain but the load shoots 1/2 to 3/4 and the only time i shoot in really hot weather with this load is to check zero before heading after Elk. Even in hot weather the empty cases fall right out the bolt works as smooth as glass

Lots of folks claim its stable, my experiences, even though a civilian champ that happens to do my AR work... was shooting it happily in IL... IE cold to hot... I just did not have luck with it. If I worked up a hot load, you could bet that in severe heat it would pop primers. And if I shot the same load in the 30s that was worked up in the 70s, I'd have to add a couple of clicks at 200... I never took it past that after I played with it some.

I know this though, I have a fair amount of 75s driven by it, and they are my house load for varmints, out to 300 in differing temps I've yet to miss a coyote with the gun zero'd at 200..

If I had to start over I'd go back to Varget or Benchmark. I happen to use to load N540 a lot, and it had the same issues as RL15, but it was so much better accuracy and speed wise, I just made notes and added the corrections as needed.....

RL 15 definitely would react violently in my 35-06 Imp when loads worked up in 60 degree weather were fired in 95+ degrees. 66 gr. powder charges with 225 grain bullets was its favorite load until the temp went above 90.

gotta wonder why the military chose R15 if it's a bad powder.

This topic pushed me to go do some very quick research. I postulated that the 2 MOA drop at 600 yards in different temperatures was due more to the denser cold air than the colder powder, but I wanted to see what the discrete effect of the denser air would actually be. I thought that having that we could then measure the effect of the cold powder required to bring about a total of 2 MOA in additional drop.

So, I went to JBM and not knowing AJs load, I used my F-class .308 load instead. At 90 degrees F, in 95% humidity my load would have a drop from a 100 yard zero of 13.7 MOA. I then calculated what the trajectory would be at the same velocity but at 30 degrees and 20% humidity. and that was 14.3 MOA, an additional .6 MOA of drop. This means that 1.4 MOA of drop is attributed to the cold powder. In order to get to about 15.7 MOA of drop at 30 degrees, I had to reduce the MV by 105 FPS. I also calculated what a velocity reduction of 105FPS would be at 90 degrees and it was 14.9 MOA (1.2 additional drop).

Here is a little table:

• Temp / MV | 2850FPS|2745FPS
• 90 degrees | - 13.70 | - 14.90
• 30 degrees | - 14.30 | - 15.70

A drop of 105FPS from 2850 represents decrease of 3.6%.

In order to replicate my findings above you need to use the following data points.

Bullet weight: 180gr
Caliber: .308
BC: .570
Muzzle velocity: 2850 (base)
Distance from muzzle: 12 feet
Elevation: 300
Temp: 90.0 (and 30 or whatever you want)
Humidity: 95% (Nice Texas summer, but humidity has just a small effect.)

So this tells me that the cold air accounted for about 40% the drop and the reduced MV accounted for the other 60%.

I think I'll stick with Varget.

FTR we don't get that big of humidity changes durring the Winter here. Odds are my velocity data was shot at around 75~80 degree temps with 90% or above humidity, the Winter humidity could have been above 70%. I'll have to find my notes on the load/velocity.

Load was 43.5gr RL-15, 175SMK's, Lapua brass, Federal 210M's. IIRC summer velocity was 2750fps. out of a 26" barrel.

The military doesn't always do things for the reasons you think they do things....

AJ, that is exactly why I listed all my assumed values. I should also point out that the humidity difference by itself was minimal, almost inconsequential.

A quick check with your data and using 800 feet as elevation (is that correct for your location?)shows that temp alone only accounts for about .5 MOA in drop. So in your case RL-15 really sucks.

RL-15 was pretty darn temp-sensitive BEFORE the military chose it. Apparently the military's temp requirements were not being met by the original RL-15, but they got a chance to the improve performance. The "improved" powder was then accepted. (Or at least this is the story I was told with somebody who was fairly high up in the Alliant organization at the time.)

I have tested a bunch of powders in various temperatures and the present version of RL-15 is much than it used to be, but other powders have been more consistent in both cold and heat.

I'm going to guess the word "better" in missing in your last sentence so it would read:



Good information, thanks but I will stay with Varget.

RL15 was much worse than the newer iterations.... IF you know whats up, its not a big deal...
The military has some things they work with on parameters and it has to fit ALL of them, not just temp variations...
Plus the have all the data to use for temp corrections anyway...

I've shot Reloder15 in in my AR Service Rifle for probably the last 8 or 9 years. I don't know if that covers the period where they had temp sensitivity issues. I've shot it in the 40 degree temps of Illinois and the 90+ temps of Camp Perry, Ohio. I can't say that I can pin a zero change on the temps in either extreme.

When Alliant took over the LC contract and at the same time got Re15 accepted as the powder for the M118LR, they put out a press release claiming improvements in temp sensitivity and consistency over the previously used powder. If the temp concerns are true, I wonder how bad the previous powder was for temp. I never got to shoot enough to know.

Part of why I stick with Re15 is that it's been very consistent lot to lot. Varget's a good powder, but they've had problems with lot to lot consistency. Part of it was ADI's response to the US Market demands. Drove the US Palma shooters crazy. Funny thing is my Aussie Palma friends never had such complaints about ADI2208 (Varget's AU equivalent).

The change in RL-15 was quite a while ago, and before that the powder was quite temp-sensitive. I was running some cold-weather tests at the time, at zero F., and RL-15 didn't do well. I contacted my friends at Alliant and that's when I found out about the change. They also sent a batch of the new stuff, which was quite a bit better.

I have seen some lot to lot variations in RL-15 in the past few years but nothing major, certainly not enough to need more than half a grain of load change in a .223.

Just shot another 1000 match today with my regular LR load. The temperature was in the high 30s, near 40. I added all of .375 MOA in elevation over the zero I developed in September and I had a component of head wind in the mix. The wind was about 8-10MPH coming in from 2 o'clock.

Maybe its worth looking at RL 15 again if I need to.... I just had lots of little quirks with it... made me wonder how John H got along with it all...

Whats the other wonder powder now.... RL17??

I think John makes a great point here that there are lot to lot variations some small and some large but I think some people mistake temp-sensitive with lot sensitive.
The origional poster GSSP mention's RL22 & RL25 as being temp-sensitive, to me I dont see them as being very temp-sensitive but they have perhaps the greatest lot to lot variations of any powder made. RL15 is not as bad as its slower brothers but it is a problem that plagues the entire Alliant line.
If you find a load that your gun loves with RL15 just buy as many 5# jugs as you can of the same lot and it will work well.
RC828

The best advice is above, IE regardless of what you use, you'd be best off to buy enough of that lot to burn out the barrel. Unfortunately that tends to be a fair amount of cash to most...

I buy match load powder by the brace of kegs (two 8 lbs kegs.) That gives me enough propellant for 2500 rounds of LR match 308. My barrel will easily last twice as long, and 32 lbs of powder for one rifle is a lot of powder to have at home, in my opinion.

What I think is better to do is do a quick check when starting to use a new batch. I find the difference to have been minimal with Varget for the last several years.

Primers on the other hand...

Primers... I went years without issues and then got nailed....

Problem with testing is then getting the same batch of anything....

I"m a bit more trusting(one reason I WON"T use AA anymore...) that I know powder/primer XY works in my combo, that I just buy enough for a barrel each time I buy a barrel.
Right now though my 7x300 is driving me nuts trying to find the right powder/bullet combo, but once I do, 80 plus grains X 1000 rounds and away we go for powder....

BTW what bit me worst on primers was exposure to loading room heat or age.... same perfect lot went bad.....

Mr B. Do you recall what time frame the improvements took place in? What powders performed well in your cold-weather tests? Here's a little aside. When the USMC was fielding the M118LR round, the Viht folk were pretty high on their chances of being the powder tapped for LR. In the end I'd heard there were concerns about sourcing a foreign powder because of wartime shipping and supply. What's interesting is in the end they still ended up with a foreign powder (Re15 is still made by Bofors from what I understand).

Jeff,
John H, Alonda, and a few other folks that have been winning consistently shoot Re15. I've been hearing about and seen the speed that VV brings, but the funniest thing was I couldn't think of anyone that's won big with the 5 series powders. Most recently there's been some activity in the Palma/MR side of the house with the 223 and 90's. They're finding that unlike 540 and the 20" AR, 550 in the long barrel is psychotic at the upper end of the pressure scale.

Chris, Brad Sauve has shot quite a bit of VV powder the past year. Few other guys I shoot with locally have also done well with VV also. RL-15 is a good powder accuracy-wise. I've found you have to push it hard or else burns a little dirty.

My latest five pounder is labeled "Made with pride in the USA" rather than Sweden like the older ones.

AJ300Mag, what caliber is Brad Sauve and the others shooting? Curious if they're shooting the 500 series (high energy) powders? The 223 experience for 540 was that you needed to push it hard to get it to group. It was surprising to hear of Jerry Tierney's experience with 550 and the very thin safety margin at the upper end of 550. Re, the burning dirty...I haven't seen that with Re15 in an AR Service Rifle and the heavies (69's, 77's, 80's and 90's). I did see it with Varget though.

mathman, thanks for the heads-up. I'm already paranoid when changing primer and powder lots...I'll have to pay that much more attention and do the due diligence when the USA made hits my pipeline. mathman, does your 5 pounder show a year on the lot # like my Bofors made stuff?

Several years back, I was told that we were down to one US powder manufacturer. I wonder if Alliant is going through St Marks, or has established their own manufacturing? Mr B?

Chris, maybe its because I don't shoot sierras XC, but we played with RL 15 just because John and Alonda won with it.... everytime we tried to step it up to get speed under it, it flopped the accuracy.... Now I"m not 100% sure here but i'd bet I ask more for accuracy and velocity than John and Alonda do, they just get a decent load and use their skill to overcome, you know I don't have that skill so I use other things to overcome.

Had heard N540 got squirrely, and have some old N550 from about 2002 to play with but haven't done so yet. Where did you get speed wise with RL15 and 90s?

It may be that even N500 stuff is too weird to be mainstream, but I know I could rely on my zero's and accuracy and more than a few TX folks ran it. Dunno but guess I"ll find out if I can manage to start up my 1000 yard service upper in the next year or so and start playing again.

RE Palma and the 90s, I often wonder if you simply have to have too fast of a twist to get them right and that goes to heck at 1000? Or maybe I need to just build a 22/6 and twist is to just barely stabilize the 90s and shoot. Of course I dont' even have a clue if Swampys bullets are as good as Jimmys, but I probably don't have more than 2-3K of Jimmys left.

Chris,

.308's. I'd have to ask on the powder (IIRC V-150). They've told me a dozen times, but it went in one ear and... All three of em are having their rifles re-barreled with Bartlein gain twist to shoot 185/190gr bullets. Don't know how VV powder will work out for them. Quickload values show RL-15 has lower pressure than Varget when shooting the heavies, waiting for warmer weather to continue testing.

Al

Swampy's bullets are MUCH better than Jimmy's bullets before Jimmy sold the business.

I'm waiting for my delivery from Swampy some time this week.

Chris,

I made some temperature tests in January 2000 and RL-15 did so poorly that I contacted one of my friends at Alliant, who told me of the changes and sent some of the new stuff.

Thats excellent to know. I saw one bad batch from Jimmy once, but I did not shoot anymore when he was selling... and had a guy here that would have loved to buy... along with me, I'd told Jimmy but evidently he forgot to tell me he wanted to sell... I could be self employed again having a blast...
Until the lead ban kicks in....

Friend of mine makes some good bullets. After listenind to him thinkin it's something I'd prefer to let someone else do...

Swampy is a good guy and I exchange emails with him frequently. I've spoken with him on the phone several times, but he does not remember me from one conversation to the next; he seems overwhelmed with orders and work. He does produce great bullets, very consistent, but you need to order way ahead and be patient.

Can you get an order within 12 months from ordering? And wasn't/isnt he a competitor??

I placed my latest order in September and it should be on its way now. I hear that Swampy has been innundated with 6.5 and 7mm orders.

Not bad, half a year I could handle with ease. Got used to buying stuff a year in advance anyway due to time to time issues like we just went through so not a big deal.

From what I understand, and I'm really not one to pry, since the world's he's been doing a great deal of 7mm. I think .224 and .308 are less in demand, or just not as much as the 7 and even the 6.5.

Swampy has really done a great job of producing excellent bullets at a good price. I use his 180gr LBT VLD in .308 and his 80gr .224 VLD with very good results (when I don't screw up.)

I have also tried the Berger 185gr HPBT LR when I ran out of Swampy's bullets and they worked very well also. They are more expensive, but much more readily available.

What I like about Bergers and JLKs are the fact the meplat is much smaller and better formed than the SMKs; I don't have to pint or trim them.

Just to get back to the temp sensitivity thing ,I did a little bit of testing a few years ago with what I consider the most temp sensitive powder I have ever used H380. I loaded it up in 223 w/69gr bullets, in 22-250 w/55gr bullets and in 220swift w/55gr bullets. I worked up loads for all 3 rifles shooting through my chronograph in 65 degree weather just after sunrise. I went home and loaded the best combinations I had found for each and returned to the same place that afternoon when the temp was just over 80 degrees. my 223 did shoot a bit faster but no ejector marks and a easy bolt lift, my 22-250 shot quite a bit faster and had a light ejector mark on the case and a noticeably flatter primer but an easy bolt lift,on my 220 swift I only fired 1 shot and my bolt was frozen and my chronograph said 300fps faster than earlier that morning.
So my point is even with a temp sensitive powder it can be quite a bit more or less temp sensitive depending on your chambering.
The only rifle that I am shooting right now using RL15 is my 6 Dasher shooting 95gr VLD Berger's, temp sensitivity has not been an issue with this combination.
B

So after reading this entire thread, Can I load some 64 gr power points for my AR with a 14.5" barrel and get 300 yard minute of coyote accuracy using RL-15 since I happen to have a bunch of it? 1:7" twist

If I were you I'd delete the barrel length you've quoted.

Just sayin...

might be a legal sbr?

It's legal. It has a birdcage on there that makes it over 16", but the rifling is only 14.5. Bought legally from the local shop. Its a Sabre Defence. Birdcage is permanent, fixed stock. meets length requirements.

Cool!!!

Hows it shoot?

Michigan doesn't trust residents with SBR's...

I am sure it shoots better than I do. I wanted a short, light gun and that is what I bought. If i was more serious about accuracy I would have one with a 20-24" barrel on it and the front post would not be there so I could mount my scope lower, but this one is fun to mess around with. Havent killed anything of note with it, but planning a couple coyote trips this winter. I have some factory ammo for it now, but have all the components to reload the Winchester 64 gr PP on top of RL15 but might be getting scared out of the powder. I just need it to be decent, not a bench gun or anything. If I could get a 5-6" group at 300 yards I would be happy with that, knowing I am not that great with the gun and also knowing anything past 200 is unlikely.

RL 15 is more temp sensitive than Varget and burns alot dirtier.

I run Varget in both of my 6.5x47's but, it also shot a tad bit better than RL 15 did. If the RL 15 would of shot better I would of used it.

I also noted the temp sensitivity in my 308 also.



I run 37.5 grains of Varget behind the 123 scenar and it agg's in the .2's at 100 and shoots lights out all the way to 600yd (as far as I run it).

This is safe in my pierce action, so be careful and work your way up from about 37.0.

I wouldn't guarantee it, BUT I wouldn't with any powder... It would be a worthy enough combo to certainly try since you have the powder.