I had a rifle built with a 1/10 twist 20" barrel in .308 Winchester. When sighting it in I found that it shoots 1" groups at 200 yards with my 150 grain ballistic tips that weren't even put together for this rifle. I think it's a shooter!

I know 168 grain sierra matchkings are the gold standard in .308 match ammo, but if I take up F-class shooting are there better 600 yard Matchking weights out there? The 1/10 twist stabilizes subsonic 200 grainers, so I'm guessing supersonice bullets in the heavier weights would be fine-I'm just not sure if there would be a benefit to using them. Anyone have any experience shooting heavy .308 Winchester bullets at 600 yards?

175gr SMK's will spin real nice out of a 10" twist and will work better for you beyond 600. I'd also give the 155gr Lapua Scenar a try as well. That bullet was designed for Palma shooting out to 1000 yards and will easily out perform any 168gr .308 bullet. If you're getting good results with the 150gr BT, the scenar should work well out of your 10" twist...

You would know...wrong.

Try 155 SMKs and 175SMKs. I don't know a single long range shooter who has uses 168s. At least not in the last decade or so.

Cant speak for the 1-10 twist, but my 1-12 rem in 308 really likes the 155 SMKs. Very accurate out to 600 for me, havent shot them much farther than that yet. They are also a great deer bullet, even though they arent recomended for it.

Blanket statements aren't always true.

When I was shooting 600 yard matches, I shot 168 SMK's. They had me at the Master level.

I tried the 175s. They literally shot 6 to 8 inch "patterns" at 200 yards. I never bothered to try them at 600; I worried that they wouldn't stay on a six foot board.

Went back to 168s, and the rifle went right back to Master class shooting.

Each rifle is worth experimenting with a little bit.

I have some 200 grain SMKs I use for subsonic loads. Does anyone see it worth the effort to try those in a supersonic 600 yard round?

Master class doesn't say that much, and thats not a dig, but its not hard to shoot 95%? prone at 600, I thought I recalled that 188 was MA cut for 20.. and that really actually sucks. IMHO you should be cleaning the prone target at 600 almost every time you shoot it unless conditions are really bad. I could do that with a 223 service rifle.

What I'm saying is that because it works for some, doesn't mean its the best.... And it wasn't the bullet that didn't shoot well, it was the gun combo, that bullet that didn't work, has shot extremely well in some of my guns.

My answer to the bullet though for 600.. 175jlk or 185 jlk/berger. Beyond that it gets a different answer.
I keep hearing all the good about the 155 scenar too.... but have never run it.
The 168 will get beat up in the wind.

Couple of things Jeff...

The floor for Mid-Range Master in F-Class is 97%.

Remember in F-Class we aren't shooting the "Helen Keller" (I call em Braille ) targets that sling shooters fumble around with.

Did I say I scraped bottom in Master? What's top end? I wasn't a hard core competitor, and did it mainly to shoot with friends. With a little more effort and dedication, who knows.

While Master may still leave some room above it, not many guys get there. And my point was that if somebody is saying the 168 is no good, I was just showing where it could go. And for a whole lot of guys, something that can shoot at that level is more than most guys will ever be able to take advantage of.



If cleaning it at 600 is a "given", why do so many guys "fail" at such an easy task?



And what you just said is basically what I said, in reverse. I didn't fault the bullet. I knew that it was good enough to make me want to try it. What I went on to say, was that in MY situation, it wasn't a standard blanket statement improvement. Your "that because it works for some, doesn't mean its the best" is what I was attempting to say about the 175. Worth a try? Absolutely. The be-all end-all for everybody? Nope.



Heck, I literally used to shoot XTC with an issued M-16 (with zero mods) and issue M193 55 grain ball. THAT will get you beat up in the wind (and everything else)!!

I shoot 175 SMKs out of my 1in10 308. Half MOA easy for the bullet. Much harder for me . . .

BMT

Was assuming XC not lazy I need an assist F class ..... grins... could be my bad.

xtc with an M16 is impressive with ball. I know that a 69 at 600 is about 4 times worse than the M14 and 168s...

I can tell you this much though, my second classification card was MA, with a service rifle, didn't seem hard to get to at all. Same with my wife. HM was harder, especially LR HM with a service rifle.

Cleaning that 600 really never did seem hard once I figured out a few things and then it was really pretty easy most times. Was rare to shoot less than a 197-198 for sure. BUT I don't think I could have easily cleaned it with 168s... What Im' saying there, if you look at ballistics.. I may not shoot better than you, but I use better gear and better bullets so when I miss a wind call, I catch a 10... thats the point. 10 ring is half the diameter of the X ring anyway, and its a huge warning that you screwed up.

Ya need to get your butt up here next August. EVERYONE (including service and target rifle) is gonna shoot a 3X600 match..........on F-Class targets.

Hound46
Your gun shoots well at 200 the 155.5 Bergers should work well for you, but for a F class gun you will be burned by guys shooting 155gr and 30" barrels at 1000y
manitou

Yeah right..... MI isn't even warmed up for summer in August.. grins.... I'm still at a loss on F class... targets are tough, I haven't had time to shoot, and have only fair zero's on a non proven load. Bottom line, I used to shoot enough to stay to the top of the game, that will never happen again since I'm back to hunting for the rest of my days. But boy it was fun. Can see how F class would addict too... I enjoy running the range in F Class state matches here. Some are also rans but you have cream of the crop that can really drill em.

BTW.. some of the worst heat I"ve ever had, was Perry in a hot year... huts withotu AC and miserable humidity... oh hell taxidermy school in WI one year was sucky too.. same thing, hot and no AC in the house....

Oh... my... gawd...

I *so* have to remember to let that one drop in a comment where some of our more die-hard sling shooters can hear it...

The only 600 yard clean on the highpower "braille" target at our range was fired with 168 Sierra's out of an M14 by a Marine. We've had AMU and their hot rod 223 loads, USMCR Team with Watson et al, All Guard Team and Maxberry out since then and no one to my knowledge has shot clean at Puuloa.

Are the 168's the best for 600? Absolutely not. Will they do the job on the Braille target? Absolutely. Will they work on the F-Class target? Dunno. Don't play that game.

Chris I dicked around with Berger 168's this past season at 600 yards (F-TR). My best 20 round string is a 198-13X (national record last time I looked is 200-12X). I've also shot a handfull of 197's~198's, just haven't put three strings togeather...

AJ300
What bullet are you using for the longer ranges? I shot some F class matches last year at Raton and have built a 308 to shoot next season, but so far have only tried 175 Bergers. Actually I should say my son tried them. I was thinking of going heavy for the 800 plus ranges and light for the Mid range course.

I've ran 175SMK's for both Mid and Long Range.

Next year I plan on experimenting with Berger 175's. Berger has a little higher BC and I believe they make a better quality bullet. So you can either save a few bucks and buy SMK's and then have to sort them or shoot Bergers right out of the box. A friend of mine tried both and picked up some points shooting Bergers at 1000 yards. As usual, YMMV...

Thanks for the info. I was thinking maybe go with a lighter bullet for reduced recoil at the short line and heavier for the longer stuff where the BC really starts to take over.

I did some playing with JBM and their bullet database with a Service Rifle scenario at 600yds. I found that the choice of bullets could make up to 10 inches of wind drift difference in a 10mph wind.

Or ya can shoot a 168 and be done with it.. grins..

I take it your range tis windy, which I would think. Probably telling me I could come off with a 198 and be happy then if thats the best the AMU could do.

I was really sold on 175 jlks in the M14s. 185 jlks and 210 jlks will be my next tests in 308...

All in all, if you are not running the best BC in the most accurate load, how will you ever know if the mistakes are you or the gun/load combo?

Regardless I think for 600 everyone should shoot a 223 with 80 smk at around 2650.

I don't believe you'll see a big difference in recoil when going from 155gr to 190gr in a F-TR weight rifle.

No there probably isn't much difference, but having busted a couple of vertebrae in my lower back and messing up my neck (part of my job involves jumping out of perfectly good airplanes)I'll take all the recoil reduction I can get.

With the weight of the big rilfes.... recoil is less of an issue. But beyond that, assuming you can get to your required accuracy, and you are paying to play the game, and playing the game to win, why would you not use the best bullet for the given task?

Way I look at it, probably minimum for most folks at least an hour drive one way to a match. Some weekends we drove 3-4 hours one way... the day of time lost. The cost of entry fees. The cost of what you have invested in gear/guns. Not to mention ammo. I mean I just don't understand....

Recoil really shouldn't factor in that much. I know for quite some time I drove 210s in a 308 that was way to light to be shooting IMHO... but at 1000 they shined... dang near shined me up too.... but it was the way to win, not be an also ran.

I can understand your viewpoint, but don't necessarily share it. We all shoot for different reasons you have yours and I have mine.

That tis true and I often loose track of that. Not understanding why anyone would want to waste time and effort just to make a gun go bang. I suspect there are those like that in this world though. I simply take on anything I try to do, to learn to be the best I can in that effort, or else its simply a waste of time to me. I often fail at what I'm doing though, but I simply just don't like half assing it along.

If recoil is an issue, then I'd take the next best BC driven as hard as I could...

I'll say this too.... I've watched a buddy run flat base custom BR type bullets at 600. Ain't too shabby because they are so dang accurate. Of course when the wind blows he shoots what I shoot... else I'll stomp him good.

I was thinking more of a 300 yd load and an everything else load. I figure at that range I'm giving up a little windage but I'll probably shoot it better overall. At 500 and over the better windage of the 175gr or heavier VLD's does make a lot more sense.

300 it isn't bad. I only ran heavier bullets at 300 IF it was really bad conditions.

Thanks to all for the input. Very informative. I'm still a little gray in one area, so I'll try clarifying by asking the question in a slightly different way...What would theoretically trump-a slower heavier 200 grain SMK with higher ballistic co-efficient or a lighter faster 175 grain SMK? Does a .308 case have enough room to push a 200 grain bullet fast enough for 600 yard shooting?

I'll be looking at the scenars, as well.

In theory the 200gr will shoot through conditions better than the 175gr. Thing is that may bite you in the aze by getting over-confident and not watching the windflags as close as you should be. Some shooters believe (along with me) that a Master or High Master class shooter will benifit from the heavies, say when your just cutting a ring and need a little extra insurance against dropping a point.

Rattle Monte's (Memilanuk) cage. He's done some experimenting with the heavier bullets, one of the best people around for experience level.

Try playing "what if" with JBM. With the numbers I played with the pokey Sierra 190 kicked some serious butt. And it got better as the bullets got heavier. Take a look at the 210 Berger.

What speeds are you pushing them at Chris?

Hound46
Another thing I haven't seen mentioned is with a 20" inch barrel you have too be sure that whatever you pick will stay supersonic. Some bullets will get unstable during the transition phase. The 168 SMK is a prime example of this. I'm sure some of the more experienced posters here could tell you stories of bullets hitting sideways at a 1000.

Seems to be about where I'm at. I spent most of the last season mentally cussing about wanting a '9.5' ring about 1" out from the 10 as that seems to be where I drop about 90% of my points. The rest of them... well, there ain't much help for those shots



Not as much as I'd like... mostly living vicariously through others The 185-190gn bullets seem to be the current collective 'favorite' as far as best compromise between useful achieved velocity and BC. There are a number of folks playing with the 208/210gn bullets and claiming all sorts of things... but the ones I know well enough to trust their tests and scores seem to be of the opinion (currently) that what the heavies make up in windage they may give up in sheer accuracy. Whether its they are harder to shoot as accurately due to recoil, or are just enough 'too big' for the .308 Win case that they are kind of finicky, I don't know. If I ever get off my butt and finish my brass prep for the upcoming season and get to testing... I've got several boxes of B185LRBTHP and B210LRBTHPs on the shelf.

The other issue is that you can fit a 155-190gn bullet in most any .308 and do some neat things with 'em. The 200+ gn pills start needing longer throats or you start giving up case capacity right when you need it the most. One of the few areas a 'factory' Remington barrel might come in handy...

If you aren't watching the flags, then you aren't competing, IMHO... what I mean is you use the best you can for ammo, and do the best you can all the time for wind doping. What good bullets do for you... first you look up after the shot and say )(*&)(*&.. and hope the bullet you have isn't a POS wind wise.... it comes up a line 10 and you are thankful. The other one is the call is hard, and the bullet comes up wide... you won't make that mistake twice so you correct... had it been a POS the first warning you have is a 9.

Remember how tiny that friggin 10 ring really is. You should be shooting Xs and 10s should be warnings.

As to the ability of the heavy bullets...210 JLK is what I'm going after IMHO eventually. 210 berger isn't far off. They will be as accurate in the right rig. They do buck wind better, I know... I hotrodded 185s and would still get burned by 210s at 1000.
NOW shooting a heavy bullet.. the follow through has to be repeatable.. I used to cuss coaches telling me if the follow through is not straight up and down recoil wise... that if the gun lands to one side or the other, no matter how perfect the shot was, thats where the bullet goes... and they were right. Any time you add more recoil, and especially a faster recoil, its harder to ignore it. THe other factor, 210s add recoil BUT they are slower so the gun recoils further before the bullet gets out the tube, meaning while the recoil isn't so viscious, your follow through has to be better for longer. I got to the p;oint in 223, that I could shoot and folks said I had no follow through because I was getting ready for the next shot while in recoil... but I'd shot enough to know how long I had to ride it out....

The Sierra 168 HPBT works best with a 1-12 ROT! The 155 Palma bullet shoots best out of either a 1-13 or 1-14 ROT!!

INteresting, we had a couple of 12s, they didn't shoot the 168s nearly as good as the 10 twists we followed them with.

Somehow I missed your post here.... guess I am human after all. Grins...

Anyway now that I read that... are ya sure you wanna play FTR? With those injuries you might wanna go F all the way, and get a lighter recoiling round period.
Or you can go 223 in FTR... I"ll say this.. a long tubed 223 and 80s and 90 jlks ain't all that shabby at longer ranges... 90s in a 20inch tube is about what I shot most of at 1000 in a 223 AR. I did a run of 308s but then moved onto the AR service rifle. There were some wildcat bullets aroudn that might have even been better than 90 jlks....

I've heard great things about the 155 Scenars.

I've seen guys shoot 1000 with them from an 18" barrel no problem.

I still shoot 175 SMK, didn't try the Scenars though, as I got a smokin' deal on 5000 of the Sierra.

FWIW, I've never owned a 20" .308. But, all three 1/10s and my current 1/11.25 have done very well with the 175SMK, out to 800. Tried 1000 but it's a crapshoot with me, doesn't matter what I'm shooting. Only time I ran the 168s was several years ago in a 26" 1/12.

Rost495
Yeah the 20 round courses of fire are pretty painful (2 more years and I'm done with the jumping stuff). I thought about running the 223 and I still might go that route especially for the midrange matches if I start shooting more matches. I am pretty much using F/TR for fun and as practice for steel shooting matches. I'll maybe shoot 3 F/class matches a year.

I run the 155.5 Berger out of a short barrel and keep supersonic to 1000 without a problem. I have been really pleased with the 155.5 and ditched the 175 for the 155.5 on everything. I understand Sierra redid the 155 palma and it is almost identical to the berger. I did find the load workup was much easier with the Berger, the scenar was more finicky with regards to OAL and I could not get a mag feeding round to match the accuracy of the Berger.

If its only 3 F class matches a year, you aren't out for awards etc... basically.
Then IMHO the 223 has you written all over it. Get it twisted and or chambered for at least 80s. Run 80 bergers or 80 jlks or 80 wildcats if they come back. Takes a special weirdo like me to run 90 jlks...(the sierra and berger 90s ain't worth a flip for a 223) and I only get a hair better results in the wind, but its enough for me to save dropping points when others do... 7 twist is your friend. 6.5 for 90s but for 90s go odd groove and not Krieger as the Krieger will pressure up before you get to the needed speed.... PN is the 6.5 folsk.... but be prepared to get a so so barrel now and then with them.

bolt or semi is your choice, but set up right with a longer tube a bolt gun in 223 should just drive tacks. And you could get it set up to run 80s out of the mag with a longer box... have the reamer set to where your bullet at the junction of the bt part and shank, does not get past the bottom of the neck. And put the right leade angle for VLDs and you should be set really nicely.

TAC is a great powder, I ran all N540/N550 at the end... the N540 burn rate changed.... coated bulllets allow a bit more speed if interested. And allow me to run a lot of rounds without cleaning.

Inside 600 meters... I don't think a .223 Rem is giving up all that much, if any.

This summer up @ the hundred-n-something-th BCRA Int'l match, I ran a Savage 12 F/TR in .223 Rem - 30", 1-7" twist, with a chamber that in every way that matters seems to match the one in my WOA space-gun upper. I had shot some practice matches with the B90VLD, N550, Lapua cases and Rem 7.5 primers and had okay results. I went back to the B82BT and N150... and that rifle came alive. A couple weeks before the BCRA I was at a local 600yd match doing load testing and came away with a 199-13x, a 198-?x, and a 197-somethin'. Took that same load to Chilliwack, BC, and won the F/TR side of things for the second time, actually placing #5 in the overall. 2nd F/TR was also shooting a .223 Rem - moly S80MK, IIRC and it was all I could do to stay one step ahead of him (I think its basically his home range).

FWIW... that match uses the ICFRA targets, and for those of you who haven't had the pleasure of shooting on those little bundles of joy... the V is even smaller than our 'X'. I think the 300yd version is something like 1.25" vs. our 1.41". Anywho, that match was four days @ 300, 400, 500, & 600 meters. While the B82BT isn't too shabby as far as BC, its a ways back from the 90 VLDs (of any brand). But in my limited experience, for 600 and in, sheer accuracy is worth more than raw BC - if I have one load that will shoot 1/4 moa (10 shot strings) and another that has a little higher BC and shoots 1/2 moa... I'll take the accuracy first and worry about the wind later.

I'm seriously considering running the .223 Rem for all the =<600yd matches next year and running the .308 for 800+...

Can't stand gas guns once I'm done with the military my M4 clone is going down the road. I use it only for CQB practice I'll suck it up till then and shoot the 308 and build me a 223 bolt gun as funds allow.

Gas guns won me so many medals we kept em in a trash can at one point.... plaques and all... the M16 platform has treated me very well. I happen to really like it. BUT thats personal once again. A nice 223 with a long mag well, and say 26-30 inch tube... IIRC from some other reading, 30 inch tube and 90s worked very nicely out to 1000.

I knew you were a gas gun guy and I know they can be set up to flat friggin shoot. I packed a SPR all Afghanistan for a while because it was the best choice for the missions we were doing, I just can't warm up to them. Much prefer a bolt gun, no logic just preference. I like the idea of a mid range 223 and a 308 for longer stuff now I just have to make it happen.

gas guns shoot. Bolt guns shoot better IMHO. And bolt guns shoot easier IMHO. I picked my path. The smarter path would or could have been shoot the best you could... but there were those little medals all over that come only from dedication to a gas gun.

I hear ya on packing the gun in the sandbox but wanting something else. Thats pretty common.

If all you are going is to 600.... but talking braille target cause thats what I'm familiar with... 223 will be your baby IMHO. Especially with the back issues.

Yeah we just got the M110 SASS and it's a heck of a lot harder to drive well then the M24.
I shot 3 F/class matches and one Any Sight at Raton this summer and while not in Memilanuk's class as a shooter did OK. 2 were Mid Range course and 1 Palma Course they were all fun though. That's a good group of regulars that shoot the matches there.