I'm building a new FTR rifle from the ground up and I am a little worried about the overall weight. I have the exact weight for all the components except for the barrel. I ordered the barrel from Krieger and according to their specs it whould weigh 6.5-6.7 pounds. I selected a 32 inch heavy Palma contour, btw.

I was talking with a fellow competitor who thinks the finished weight of the barrel will be closer to 7.5 or more pounds like the 30 inch one he just removed from his rifle and he suggested I go to a medium (regular) Palma. I talked with Krieger and they say it would be 6.5 pounds with another ounce per inch or so.

Any thoughts on this? Should I play it safe and go with a regular Palma or am I safe budgeting 6.7 pounds for the barrel?

depends on how much your ruger action weighs. Grins.

Dennys everything I've read said there's no accuracy difference between a heavy palma and a standard palma.

So, tell me again how the action influences the weight of the barrel, Mr. Comedian?

BTW, it's a different action anyway.

AJ, everything I have been reading backs up what you just said/wrote.

Actually trying to prompt you into telling us what action you are going to use...

And ya know if the ruger is heavy ya gotta have a lighter barrel....man I gotta teach you everything...

How's life going? Range float away yet? We are thankful for every drop of rain we get up here. Of course now instead of fire calls all the time we get vehicle wreck calls all the time... no rest for the wicked.

BTW who is puttin er together for ya?

Best of luck!!

It's a Panda action.

Life has been, interesting and sad. Couple of funerals and some competitions. We almost got rained out at the last 1000 but I took a chance the meteorologists would be wrong, again, and held the match. It was very windy instead of wet.

We have been catching up on the rain deficit, but still a ways to go.

AJ, I think I'm going to call Krieger and change that to a standard Palma.

I hear good about Panda.

I hate it when I will maybe get to your point, having to decide on something other than a 700 for an action.... the choices are so many and for so many differing reasons...

Whats a Panda run these days?

Pandas don't run, they eat bamboo. Slowly.

http://www.kelbly.com/price2.html

Not so bad price wise.

Good Humor too, and not the ice cream bar.

My Benchrest rifle is based on a Panda action. Are you using a polished action or one that has the bead blasted finish?

Jewell trigger?

OT, but sorry to hear of the funerals and such. We've had our share here too, I"m about sick of them already... an 18 year old duck hunter/bowfishing friend of mine, on Christmas eve, had dropped his friends off and was on the way to his uncles to pick up a lab.... ran off the road and hit a tree.....
One of my fellow fire fighters just lost a 5 month old to SIDS and his wife is not good, we firefighters fill the hole by hand with shovels...
and the last, a 41 year employee of the city, doens't sound that sad, but was 62 and it hurt a bit.
And then Saturday we landed a helo to get one of our City employees on lifeflight from a massive M.I.


Best of luck on the gun. I concur that barrel weight rarely has a lot to do with overall accuracy on same quality barrels, other than the lighter they get the harder the complete gun is to shoot consistenly... But you won't have that issue here.

10 twist?

AJ, it's the bead blasted one. And yes, Jewel trigger. I already have the trigger and the stock. I also bought a new NSX 12-42X56 with the .125 MOA adjustments. I am mounting it on my current rifle until the new one is done.

Jeff, understood. I have had a few shocks that hit home and I have been grumpy at the universe for a while but I am getting over it.

11 Twist, don't need no excess pressure at the ragged edge.

Aj, quick question for you. Tell me about the scope mounting system on your Panda. How are you set for an inclined ramp. I heard some weird stuff about the Panda.

Dennys the rifle is used for short-range benchrest so the dovetail on top of the action isn't canted. Did you get the 20 MOA canted action?

You'll like the scope...

I've found that the bead blasted action is a bear to keep clean. I haven't found anything that will preserve its appearance in a like new condition. Wish they'd clear anodize the darn thing...

Yes, I specified the 20 MOA canted model.

I use Simichrome to keep my blast-beaded and other stainless steel and aluminum stuff clean.

http://www.simichrome-polish.com/

Well, after reflection and AJ's comments, I called Krieger and I amended the order to a barrel midway between the heavy Palma and the standard Palma. I start at 1 inch in the neck and then take it down to .860 at the muzzle instead of .900 for the heavy and .820 for the standard.

Clean nice exterior of action doesn't equate to accuracy.... just sayin....

My service rifles had scratches, paint all over the knobs and so on.

But a dirty barrel interior is a BAD thing.

Jeff have you ever seen the paint jobs on some of those rifles? Most of the "smart" ones run a polished action, guess i'll never learn...

Dan Lilja has a barrel weight calculator on his website that I've found to be fairly close when figuring barrel weight.

Ill be curious about how the canted dovetail works out for you. We shoot midrange fullbore so I need to be able to zero my scope for 300 yards. Twenty MOA was too much on my Winchester so I machined a custom rail at 10 MOA. I'm 2 MOA high at 100 yards bottomed out on travel leaving me the full 40 MOA of internal scope adjustment available plus the hash marks of the reticle.

I disagree. In F-class LR, where EVERYTHING is important, it is critical to have the rifle as clean as a whistle on the outside so as to make sure the heat transfer from the barrel and the action to the atmosphere is the same for every shot. The last thing you want is a piece of snot on the barrel that affects the heat radiation between shot 12 and shot 13. This is how you get unexplained flyers and you shot a 9 instead of a 10 or a 10 instead of an X.

I realize this is seldom discussed but it's an issue nonetheless.






That's my story and I am sticking to it.

Yep, thats one thing you take away from BR mostly... they LOVE their shiny acttions/painted stocks...

And to be honest, one set of hardware on my service rifles is painted green/red chameleon whatever that paint is... mirage... One of the wifes is painted blue... was kinda gettin bored with all the ARs we had all being black.... hypocrite that I be at times.

Denys
You were supposed to keep that quiet RE fingerprints and such on metal causing fliers. Most could never figure that out, especially since it didn't happen until the metals passed a certain temp range and required cooling. Now I guess everyone is gonna figure that out.

AJ, I downloaded the spreadsheet from Lilja. I made the adjustments for my barrel contour and the weight is just a bit below 6 pounds. Now, I'm thinking of going back to .900. Nah, I'll just leave it alone.

Sorry, it seems I let the cat out of the bag about smudges on the barrel and action. Too late now.

AJ, about the riflescope. My current Weaver has done well for me but I have noticed in the past couple of years that when it's heavily overcast I have a problem seeing the fine reticle with the target dot on the target at 600 and 1000 yards, especially the latter.

At the match last week, I simply couldn't it see it most times and I was aiming as best I could based on the outline. With a 1.1mm exit pupil and my aging eyes, I am just surrendering too many points because I can't see. Looking at my records for the last year, there seems to be a tendency for my scores to be down on cloudy days. In bright sunshine, the scope is fine, but otherwise...

So, enter the NSX with a larger exit pupil and an illuminated reticle. I hope to get it mounted this weekend and have it ready for the match in March.

(Now, I will have to make sure there are no smudges on the barrel.)

Never let equipment beat you. Always make sure if you loose, you've beaten yourself.

That was VERY good use of data books to learn about the scope... they ain't score books, they are data books and very important.

The numbers confirmed a notion that was developing in my head.

Just a thought, I'm thinking those heavy palma barrels that are comming in at 7.5lbs are a modified heavy palma contour. Some people are running the straight shank to 5" long instead of the standard 2.5"/3" to allow for setting the barrel back. I don't have excel on this laptop, will have to wait till I get home from work tonight and play with the numbers...

My Rock Creek barrel has the longer straight shank.

Good point. Let me know your thoughts.

AJ, thoughts on differences between Rock and Krieger? I"m thinking same quality basically has been my experiences

I did some playing around with the spreadsheet trying all sorts of variations on the shank and so on. It really did not amount to much difference.

However, I am not going to change the specs and I will leave it a .860 muzzle diaemeter and 32 inches long. This will make sure I make weight with a bit to spare and it will give me some peace of mind. Plus I can always attach a cappucino machine or a windmeter and still make weight.

I have a heavy palma finished at 32 rock barrel, borden action. I was very aware of weight for other components barrel weight came in 6.5 lbs before chambering and crowning.
Your Panda is within 2oz of mine action. I had to forgo the barnard.
we both run jewell triggers
If I remember correctly you are running a sinclair bipod. That is a heavy sob for a heavy palma. i doubt you would have make weight. You having changed to a medium/heavy this could be interesting.
My nightforce BR model is ounces lighter then the NXS.
With the Panda action you might look at getting kelby rings they are lighter then the Nightforce i ended up having to change my steel to nightforce ultralights and drilling out the 3 way butt assembly. i use an LRaccuracy bipod that weights 24oz. I tipped the scale at 18lbs ounces to spare with my setup.but not if it is raining LOL
the rail.
My Br nightforce has 40min does the nxs have 50? i have found shooting the heavies like you 180 - 190 i need more rail to get down to 300. 20 moa isn't enough

I added a bubble level vortex.. if you plan to use one and don't have one picked out find a different model this is heavy (read tactical) for what it is doing

it will come down to stock choice i have a robertson composite weighing in a 5lbs.

Can we ask what stock. and the weight of the NXS.
Trevor

Trevor, good of you to reply.
My stock is a PR&T which I just received earlier this week. It weighs in at 4 pounds, 10 ounces but it is unfinished. I suspect the weight will go up to about 5 pounds with the finish and the bedding.

The NXS is 34 ounces and the Panda is 30.5 ounces. Nightforce lists the BR 12-42 at 36 ounces, so heavier. The NXS has 45MOA of elevation. I am considering the Kelbly rings.

I am considering getting the Sinclair 3gen bipod which is under 2 pounds. You are correct that I have the 2gen model and it is heavier, closer to 3 pounds.

I'm not sure I follow your issue getting to 300 with 20MOA. Just for the record, I do not plan to use this rifle for anything below 600 yards and it will mostly be 1000 yards.

3 way butt plate adds and extra pound plus if you go that route. doesn't seem right the BR being heavier then NXS i will double check but if that is the case good choice. optic planet lists both at 36 i can't access nightforce directly from my location will confirm tonight.
borden action weight 32oz. you picked a solid action. question the panda rail is it picatinny. might decide your rings for you

sorry up here F class starts at 300 to 1000 at 300 i am bottoming out the scope.

As this is your money and not mine LOL have you thought about ditching the sinclair and going with the Censhot or star shooter bipod. Censhot is 19oz Star shot is closer to 26 i believe. going from memory too much. i will confirm that as well.

lastly did you include the other hardware trigger guard screws adjustable cheek riser?

Trevor

P.S.
u remember the UK shooter who failed to make weight with the sinclair in Wisconsin he was scrambling and John Weil happened to have an extra bipod. saved this guys entire trip across the pond.

Trevor, the PR&T has the 3 way buttplate and the adjustable cheekpice built-in. The Panda has the rib, not picatinny rail.

I understand what you are saying now about 300 yards and bottoming out the scope adjustments. I have another rifle for when I play at 300 yards. It was good enough to take me to High Master; it's a heavily customized AR-15.

I have looked at the Censhot and other bipods. The rifle will not be ready for at least another 4-6 months so I have some time to look around at other bipods.

Yeah, I do remember that UK shooter with the heavy rifle, I can't remember his name though. If I had been in his position, I would have taken a saw to the stock and cut out a piece. :-)

I played with the barrel weight calculator last night, couldn't come up with much over 6.5lbs either. Someone stated their barrel was 7.5lbs? That's a lot of extra weight!

Jeff I haven't shot any Krieger barrels in .308 just .243 benchrest barrels. I've gotten a couple of good barrels from RC, waiting delivery on one right now for my new F-Class rifle. I hope they hurry, we start our winter league in a few weeks. I would like to have the new rifle broke in by then.

AJ, yes it's a lot of weight unless the calculater is all wrong.

Today I mounted the NXS on my current FTR rifle and it is a LOT brighter than the Weaver. I will need to get used to the NP2DD reticle, but I like it a lot.

I used a FAT wrench to tighten the ring screws down, 25 inch pound. Neat tool, works like a champ. Can't wait for the next match.

Denys,

FWIW... I have a 30" Brux heavy Palma barrel that I put on the Wife's rifle. It has their interrupted or 'spitfire' fluting - looks pretty but doesn't remove a *lot* of weight compared to some others I've seen, and it is on a Savage small-shank action - so the shank in front of the receiver is 1.062" instead of 1.200". Actually, it was originally for a large-shank receiver, and I had it turned down to fit a small-shank action.

According to my little MyWeigh 35 scale it weighs a grand total of 5 lbs 3.5 oz - and that was when it was in the large-shank configuration. Haven't weighed it since the modification.

I know different barrel makers have different variations on 'standard' contours - some only have a 2.5 or 3" full diameter 'shank', whereas others may have a 5" long shank, and as mentioned the barrel I have effectively doesn't have one at all. I don't see that making the difference between 5-1/2 lbs and almost 7 lbs, though. I'd be interested in what the actual dimensions of the barrel were on that barrel your friend took off...

Monte

Yeah, you and me both. Next time I see him I will ask him.

Thank, Monte.

On the Panda.
Oh 20 some years ago I had a heavy bag rifle built by Clarence Hammonds.
It had the panda action with the blasted finish.
He had taken fine scotch bright and worked the outside of the panda to a satin finish.
I love it.
I did it to all my pandas after that.Even the scope rings.
No more finger prints...just sayen


dave

This past weekend was my first match with the new NXS scope.

The wind was tricky, coming in from an unusual direction for Bayou, west by northwest. My boresighting job was good enough to get on the target at 1000 yards right away and then I spent a few more sighters to get dialed in more accurately. I started out at 42X, but backed it out to 35X so that I could monitor the targets on either side of mine. At first I had a bit of problem getting my head set properly, but by match 3, it was very natural.

I did encounter an issue during match #2, were my left eye went batty, the eyelids were fluttering uncontrollably and I was getting very frustrated. I lost 5 points in two shots, trying to continue shooting. I paused for a few minutes and then resumed shooting without further eyelid crazyness. It was strange.

On match #3, the mirage was moving but I got a good bead on it. I finally set the elevation down properly midway through the string and from that point on all I needed to do was dope the wind. I finished quite strong even though I shot a lone 7 when the rifle was not at my shoulder; it fired back into my shoulder and I got a 7 straight at 9 o'clock. My fault.

I like the scope, it is extremely clear and I like the ease of focus even though you should always adjust it going back to zero and working up to your focus point. I like the NP-2DD reticle, and I am learning it.

Money well spent, I think.

I`m too lazy to look it up, but what, if any, weight restrictions are placed on F class?

See "Tube Gun" below.

18.18 pounds on F-T/R, including bipod. I think F-open is 22 pounds, excluding front rest.

Denys

You have been in this long enough now that you know NOT to shoot through funny eyes.... it'll bite you almost everytime. You knew that and still shot and it reaffirmed what you knew.
Same with teh gun out of the shoulder.

I'm as guilty as you are or at least was when still shooting, its a mental game at that point, but you already know the outcome is 99% not going to be good so why chance it, better to wait it out and make it right before shooting, even if you end up missing the wind by burning time...

And you know I say this in sincerity, you have so much potential there and I think you are getting closer to that potential with each match.

And now you finally admit a more accurate rifle and better scope and loads might actually benefit you too!

Bravo IMHO.

Jeff

Well, I didn't freak out too much, after all this match was more of a trial of the new scope and adjustment of such. I just thought it was weird to have the eyelid go out of control but since I'm right eyed, I could not figure out why my left eyelids went nuts. Must be age.

Yeah, I kinda figured out the Weaver had brought me about as far as it could with my aging eyes.

You are going to be just really great shooter if you keep after it!!!

I have floaters really bad... Even if I know I"m in PERFECT conditions to be slinging repeated Xs downrange with my service rifle, I HAVE to wait them out.... you know if you listen to that little voice you do better generally...

Thanks, the tube gun at 16 will do.
Ryan wants to try the 6mm D-Tac bullets.

CGPAUL, I don't know what you mean by tube gun and see below, but if it's a 16+lbs now, don't forget the bipod. That can be 2 lbs or more.

Look Here...

I solved the issue with the 7lb barrel. A 31" Heavy Varmit barrel will weigh aprox 7lbs, a Heavy Palma aprox 6.5lbs @31"

I know what a tube gun is, I don't know what CGPAUl was saying about "tube gun and see below" I saw nothing below.

I think I'm happy with the mid-heavy contour I specified for my Krieger. Let's see what it weighs when it gets here.

"Tube Gun" is a topic on this thread, below yours. A picture and comments go along.
Please visit.
PS...AJ300 had a link for you to click on..see his last post here.

can you clarify what you mean by going back to zero? do you mean from infinity down or ZERO up.I beleive the correct procedure is to go from infinity down to your yardage. the reason being that going down prevents you from stopping short of the distance desired. going from zero to your yardage has the possible problem of going further then your desired distance. If you go beyond your target the mirage can reverse directon. creating all sorts of problems.

Nightforce makes good glass you should enjoy it.

Trevor

Trevor, good on you for chiming in.

It's an old habit I developed using other scopes with side focus. I definitely mistyped and I did mean going to infinity and backing down until I reached focus. I have been playing with the NF and I "think" that it's just like the Nikon Tactical I have and that it "may" not suffer from the lash of the side focus like some Leupold I used to own. The next few matches should confirm that for me. We shall see.

I am enjoying the NF, so far.

Just shot in another 1000 yard match this past weekend. I REALLY like that Nightforce NXS. I was actually able to place the dot inside the X-ring and I could see it with no problem. The first match was during a heavily overcast condition and that would have been very difficult with the Weaver.

I shot a 192-4X in the first match; I dropped a single point during the first 10 shots. Starting at shot 12, I got three 9s in a row, just outside the 10, then got two 8s in succession. When I pulled my head out of my posterior, the last 4 shots were 10s and Xs.

Ended the match with a 570-11X. Not my best ever but high up there for me.

Did I mention I really like the NXS?

shot 12 area was always the time both my position started to suck a bit, and needed retweaking RE NPA and such, and about the time my eyes started to show the strain....

Not saying there is much you can do for the 2nd, or that its even possibly using glass vs irons, but you can watch the NPA stuff.

I suspect though that you know what happened as you allude to HUA syndrome.

570 ain't bad including HUA.

Yep, I was looking at the wrong flags. And that would be HUP. :-)
Did I mention I like the new scope.

(I'd better, it was pricey.)