Which bullet would u guys use for maximum terminal ballistics at the longest AR 223 range possible for coyotes?

I've had very good results with the 69 Nosler and OK results with the 65 JLK Low Drag, but don't know much about the others. Have a 9-twist so the 75 A-Max doesn't give me great accuracy.

The 77 SMK was plenty accurate in my 9 twisted barrel in warmer weather but I have been told it shouldn't stabilize in colder temps. I haven't checked it yet.

I'm still a fan of the 50 gr NBT for coyotes at any range I need to try.

The A-max doesn't fit in the mag with the case mouth touching the ogive or it would be the one.

I have some 60 gr V-max's to play with if I want to try long range with a 223 but I have better rigs for long range and lost interest.

Thank u.

Personally I have used 52 grain SMKs more than anything. Seconded by 60 grain Vmax. Both have gotten the job done rather well.

The dogs that I have smacked with MK262 (77smk) have all expired quickly as well.

I really like the performance of the 60 grain Vmax but I just hate loading flat based bullets.

The 52 grain SMK has long been my standard and will continue to be.

None are really bad choices.

I've taken a few dogs with the 69gr SMK's. Very accurate and kill about as well as any other bullet I've tried.

Terry

MS brought up another point, I hate loading flat based bullets as well so I tried Noslers 60 gr BT and my guns or my loads I tried just didn't go very well. Couldn't get but about 1" groups in 2 very accurate guns.

One thing on the 77SMK's I shot one coyote in the chest coming at me, it left a small hole and no exit of course. His partner stopped at the shot and turned broadside, I intentionaly aimed at the shoulder. It went through the shoulder and took the opposite shoulder off, his leg was dangling. This was at usual called distances of less than 50 yards, the first at 20 yards.

These were shot with my 1/7 twist gun.

I have a bunch of 75bthp loaded up for practice, thats what I grab and put the bullet in the right place all is good.

The 60 Vmax was made for coyote killing...

This past weekend in fact. All Vmax'd and total traveled distance was straight down...

I suspect some day I should load up some 60s... I"ve shot a ton of the sierra 60 flat base HP in competition and while they SUCK in wind, they are accurate and I bet they'd open well, the Vmax probably has a bit higher BC and maybe one day I'll buy 500 and load em for my long tubed flat top!

I gotta go with you one day calling sooner or later.

Jeff

Jeff,

I'd be happy to have you join me...

My country is limited in East TX but call your friends up around La Grange after deer season and I'll put some in front of you...

The Sierra HP you reference, at least in 6mm, is a pretty dang "tough" bullet when it is slowed down to a MV under 3K in my experiences...

I have used the plastic tipped bullets over the years many, many times for coyotes. I'm just trying to maximize range with the highest BC bullet that'll still give good terminal ballistics at between 400-500 yds. out of the AR. The 68's and up beat the V-Max, Blitzkings, and BT's for wind bucking ability with their higher BC's, but I'm trying to figure out which 1 has the best terminal effect to those ranges. Point blank to 300 yds. is not an issue for me, 300-500 is.

75 amax ain't nothing to shake your head at....

Greg

I'll see what I can do here. Most property is small parcels though. But I may have access to one larger ranch.

I'll get with you later if I can remember that far...

Jeff

I'm actually using the 65 SGK right now and i had a problem with the optic holding zero. It's set up now so i think i'll be OK once i verify my 500 yd. calcs. The 425 was dead on the nose for ballistic program calcs. and i think 500 will be also. Will find out on steel next week. I'm gonna shoot this bullet and the 75 A-Max for now, hoping the 75 will shoot once again. We'll see.

Thks for the input.

Did I mention that I've shot the 75 amax quite a bit at mag length. Someone said a long time ago you couldn't do that... and the round is fugly loaded, but it was used for 300 yard rapid fire groups to be wind resistant for me and I've shot some of the smallest 10 shot knots I've ever shot with that load.

I did start from scratch to work it up though as you are burning up more case space that way.

As I recall that load was good for 10 shot groups with an AR15 of between 1.25 and 1.50 inches basically.

I don't do coyotes, I'm not really much of a hunter, I'm a serial paper puncher.

However, for this deer season, I loaded up some 75gr Swift Scirocco II bullets for one of my ARs. The bullet is VERY long, at least as long as the 75 A-Max but the ogive is different and I am able to load the bullet to mag-length (using a hammer). I am using a reduced load from my 80gr SMKs for 300 yards. The bullet weighs less but it's further in the case.

Warning, these bullets are expensive, almost double what I pay for premium match bullets. I just don't buy or shoot a lot of them.

Don't know what you are are shooting your 75s from but in a Stag M4 #3 full flat top, 1/9 twist, using Hornady 75 grain TAP ammo, that uses the standard 75 grain BTHP, the gun shot a 1.2" group at 300 and a 5" group at 600 yards. This same ammo from a Remington LTR bolt gun with a 1/9 twist runs .69" at 300 and 2.0" at 600...

Have recently started shooting a DPMS Sweet 16 heavy barrel with 1/9 twist...groups at 100 yards have been running .4 and 2.5" at 600...that is with 75 grain PRVI match ammo.

I have not shot coyote with either load but have using the Sierra 63 grain SMP and it worked better than the lighter bullets in .223.

Bob

Interesing info. I wasn't sure about PRVI but 2.5 inches in real life from factoyr ammo and any factory gun ain't nothing at all to sneeze at. I have custom guns and reloads that sometimes have a tough time getting under 3 inches at 600 for five shot group averagas.

That is great shooting. If I were you, I would take that rifle and load to the nearest F-class match and get my High Master classification right away. 2.5 inch groups at 600 yards, that's in record territory. You probably do that offhand right?

That is great shooting. If I were you, I would take that rifle and load to the nearest F-class match and get my High Master classification right away. 2.5 inch groups at 600 yards, that's in record territory. You probably do that offhand right?

Monday in the NV desert I'll be trying Sierra 65gr GK in front of 27.2 grs of Varget out of my 20" RRAs coyote. Last coyote I shot with a 55 gr V-Max that bullet nearly removed the coyotes head.

well I don't know if thats record territory, but I demand less than 3 inch groups from my test ammo at 600, and I'm hoping for less, best was Kayla/s barrel that I shot quite a few test groups out of that was under 2 inches consistently...

...quite frankly I used to shoot some AR matches and I suck offhand. No, this is all bench and prone shooting...

Here is my friends range...the target backers are at a lasered 100,300,600 and 800 yards..



Here is the .69" group at 300 with the LTR...



The 5" group at 600 with the stock Stag M4 #3 Flat Top...



I have the 1.9" 600 yard .223 LTR target downstairs but have never taken a picture of it. I didn't have a camera out at the range the days the Sweet 16 was being shot and left the targets on the backer board...

Elevated prone shooting bench... The owner of the property just got done putting up an overhead cover and building a very heavy standard shooting bench..



Friend Paul shooting his .308 LTR



Here is a 3 shot group he fired in the fall of 2008. He misjudged the wind for the first three shots and hit the target in the elbow...



The wind changed slightly and he took a new holdoff...and center punched the target..

[img]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/LongRange050208021.jpg[/img]

But if you notice behind the target...you see some berm and the sky...that is because that is the last target on the range...at 800 yards...

So the best I am doing is 1.9" at 600...he is doing 1.4" at 800...he's the one who needs to be competitively shooting.

So far with that Sweet 16 the smallest group at 600 has been 2" and the largest a little over 4". If you doubt that PM CF Member Firearms44. He sold me that rifle and has been out to that range with us...

Bob Makowski

I'm sorry, I smile at such "groups." But that's just because they don't tell you much of anything. I think 5 rounds are a bare minimum to get any idea of the possibilities with your rifle system; more rounds is better. (For example an F-class match is 2 sighters and 20 rounds for record.) I also love your shooting tunnel, it takes away most issues with wind and mirage. As long as you compete or hunt under similar circumstances, you'll be fine. I am not denigrating your abilities, I just have a hard time matching your setup to other environments in which I usually shoot.

At any rate, I loaded up some 75 gr Swift Scirroco II yesterday and after the match today, I ran over to the 100 yard range to test the load. Wow, those bullets are phenomenal; I only had enough ammo for two 5-round groups and came up with two proverbial sub-MOA groups. Not bad for a first outing with a made up load and mag length bullets. If I had time, I would work on them a little more but this will have to do for hunting purposes. These bullets have a .400+ BC, quite amazing little bullets.

You are most correct in that this range takes all the "fun" out of shooting...but for testing loads and guns it is ideal.

As to three vs. five vs. ten round groups I guess it depends on what you are trying to do. I used to shoot five round groups but when the results kept coming out about the same then why waste the ammo...

What I am looking for is the first shot from a cold barrel, not "groups". When doing initial testing on a rifle it may take me an hour to fire a three or five shot "group". I've also shot a three shot group over the period of an afternoon or a week...

You are in a whole different world...you have to know if your rifle will begin walking when it heats up...I do not...

Bob

Bob, for your purposes, I think you're doing it properly. I just have a difficult time restraining myself from laughing out loud when I hear claims of sub MOA all the way out. As you know, atmospheric conditions have a nasty habit of making those claims so much hot wind, so to speak.

I have tested some hunting rifles, and while I could get very decent 3 shot group, the fourth and fifth and so one, would just be passing aquaintances in a congregation. These thin hunting barrel heat up quick. Not like my truck-axle of a barrel on my match rifles.

Denys

Hey, I got a truck axle for a hunting tube too....


I have no issues at all with 3 shot groups. But I have to have more than a couple of them to prove anything.

For sure in load development I"m to the point of shooting a ladder test first(old Audette) and then shoot 3 shot groups of the chosen area of charge weights...no need in loading up a bunch of rounds you have no clue of if they'll hit a piece of typing paper or not.

I think we all tend to place everyone in our circumstances.

I mean, a target shooter gets all worked up if a gun doesn't repeat sub MOA as long as he pulls the trigger. And a hunter really only cares about the first or maybe the second shot so 3 shot groups are good to go for him.

Lord forgive us if we try to mix the two views.

Hedging your bets by shooting in a tube takes alot of variables out and tells us what the rifle will do. Maybe this is where the "if I do my part" that is now popular to make fun of comes in.

Me, I loathe truck axle barrels. I don't care how good they shoot, I'm not gonna drag one around all day long. So put me in the 3 shot group pile.

Jeff, what are you hunting with a one-inch diameter tube?

TWR, my point was more about the tunnel that Bob is using than the number of shots. For hunting purposes, the cold bore shot and maybe one follow up is all that is needed. (Except for Jeff who needs the heat stability provided by a truck-axle barrel. I suspect he puts 20-30 rounds in the deer for some reason.)

I elected to use this AR this year, simply because it's about the only rifle I have that is not as heavy as a crew-served weapon. I got a 5 shot mag for it, only because they did not have a 3-shot mag. I was thinking of using my sled and single load, but that was a bit much I think.

At any rate, the Swift Scirocco II bullet is an amazing .224 diameter bullet, and I hope to report back later this season about how it did its job.

Nah, I dump one round in, but then I've also been known to drop as many as 3-5 pigs off a sendero before the rest can escape....

I don't have a one inch tube on my 7mm, but I dang sure have a heavy to me tube, think its a 6 or larger contour. At 28 inches its not light and not all that portable.

And of course back to the AR hunting with one a 20 round mag has never been a problem size wise. Plus I dont' have to carry ammo in the pack...

SIX ? You wuss, that's a light Target contour. Barely .750 at the muzzle. That's what my little AR has, the one I'm taking to the woods. Then again, it's only a 20 inch barrel.

Also, thanks for telling me. I was going to go check in the hunting regulations for the magazine capacity limitation, so you saved me some time there. I think I will still use the 5 rounder though. It's nice and small.

TX has no mag restrictions at this point.

Yeah, lets talk about wimp barrels once you pack this thing around to the stands and back...hahaha

FTR- 'preciate the feedback. If i'm not mistaken that Scirocco has a heavier jacket designed for big game--correct? In your opinion what kind of terminal effect will u get at ~500 yds.?
The 2 75's--

Here's what we need back--

75 A-Max @ VLD Mag. length--

sscoyote, I must confess that I know a great deal about internal ballistics and external ballistics, but I am clueless about terminal ballistics. As I said earlier, I am a serial paper puncher, and while I am very good at that, I am not much of a hunter.

I believe that you are correct about the jacket of the Scirocco II. The bullet is designed to hold together and mushroom at a wide range of velocity. These high BC bullets (which I have been able to load to magazine length,) have a very high BC for hunting bullets. I did not chrono this load, but for the same amount of powder as I used in this load, I push a 77gr SMK to 2700FPS in a 20 inch barrel.

This is what Swift claims for various velocities:
http://www.swiftbullets.com/sirocco_intro.html

At 500 yards, I think I would be close to the 2100FPS figure. I should think that would knock the snot out of a coyote. I was very impressed with the accuracy that I got with these bullets with exactly zero rounds of load development. I just took my load for 77SMK, loaded 20 rounds, mag-length of Sciroccos and got two sub-MOA 5 shot groups. The first one was 4 inches high at 100 yards and the second one was 1 inch high at the same distance, after adjusting the scope. I have 10 loaded rounds left for hunting and 80 bullets yet to load. Very impressive bullet.

The Swift won't open near as well as the amax at that distance, and the amax isn't a violent opener at that distance either, caliber in , dime out... that was a deer I took at 556 or 565 with my service rifle one evening... long story but folks don't think you can do things like that with iron sights and a 223....little did they know....