Here's what I am looking for. 1) Ability to mount scope or various sighting options. 2) Availiblility of 20 round mags. 3) Price of 20 round mags. 4) Available parts and options. 5) Accuracy, especially for hunting. 6) Will be used for both hunting and defence in a SHTF situation.
Here's what I think are the various options. 1) G3 Centme/HK-91 2) Springfield M1A 3) FAL L1A1 4) DPMS 5) Armalite AR-10 6) Rock River LAR 8 using FAL mags 7) Possible different upper calibers.
These 6 seem to be the most abundant variations.
I already have an L1A1 with mags. However attachment options are slim or expensive. I feel that it is the AK 47 of 308 platforms.
I'm leaning towards a Rock River LAR 8 because of the interchangeability of FAL mags. Also, the DPMS because of the availibility of parts and options.
What do you guys think? I also feel that most manufacturers are switching to or will eventually switch to the Magpul mags that DPMS uses.
Since you already have L1A1 mags, I say the Rock River would be your choice. Since any semi-auto is only as good as it's magazine, being able to use a real proven military mag is a big plus to me. I've owned many FAL's and never had a problem with mags, either steal or aluminum. And BTW, the FAL is not the AK-47 of .308 platforms, it is the Rolls Royce of .308 platforms.
I know that DPMS has barrels for 243, 7mm08, 260 rem, and 338 Federal, so different uppers are available for theirs. One could make a 358. This gives theirs more flexibility. Remington has taken over DPMS and Bushmaster. However, I do like the Rock River LAR 8. Wish I could buy them all.
You mentioned accuracy. The RRA or DPMS if that's very high on your list. There are a couple of guy's at my club with the RRA's. The groups they're shooting with these are VERY impressive.
Armalite now has a AR10 which will accept P-Mags. I am personally not that crazy about the idea of the FAL mag in an AR, but realize it works well in the original application.
I have two AR-10's and am quite happy with them. However - I might just look at one of these next time around:
The FAL is THE .308 battle rifle. It won against the M14 in US tests so the US went back and basically rigged the tests to make the M14 win. That doesn�t mean the M14 is a bad rifle by any means, I love the M14, but the FAL is just a superior rifle. The AR-10 didn�t even come close, and the current AR-10�s all have some proprietary parts, and none of them have been thoroughly battle tested with the exception of the M110 Sniper System (which is borderline, and has had some issues). The FAL is the most thoroughly tested .308 battle rifle in existence. It is not as accurate as an AR-10, but it is accurate enough that you can bag a deer out to 600 yards if you�re up to the task. I�ve heard people say the FAL isn�t easy to put optics on, and I wonder where they�re getting that. DSA makes a fantastic Picatinny rail top cover that allows you to mount optics just as easy as an AR-10. As for magazines, FAL metric magazines are cheap, and they are as battle proven as a .308 magazine can be. Your preference for the L1A1 means an Inch FAL and those magazines are more expensive; but just as good. Parts for a FAL are as cheap as they get, and readily available even in the darkest corners of the globe. Accessories are readily available and you can do most anything you want with a FAL. If you have to have a FAL that shoots those itty-bitty groups, then DSA makes a heavy barrel target version, but they�re a bit heavy. Lastly, the balance and ergonomics of the FAL are simply outstanding. In battle, you don�t have bench rests and you mostly shoot offhand, and nothing balances like a FAL (although the M14 comes close).
Everyone these days wants the AR-10, and I will admit the AR-10 makes a fantastic range toy because it shoots itty-bitty groups. I that�s your main concern go with the AR-10. But if you want something that is truly a battle rifle, then you�d be selling yourself short by considering that AR-10 over the FAL.
I have a FAL. The cheap mags around here have dried up. Used are running $20-25. The inch version will take metric mags, but the metric version will not take inch mags. I bought a complete set of springs, gas piston, etc for the FAL in case parts get in short supply.
I want to get a DPMS 308. They now have 243, 260 Rem, 7mm08, and 338 Federal barrels for them. They use Magpul mags which are becoming the standard. Several of the AR-10 manufacturers are now making theirs compatable with Magpul. I think the M110 uses the Magpuls. Also, most of the lower parts are interchangable with the AR-15. With the recent flood of AR-10s etc, many parts for the 308 version will be available.
Another thing. IMHO, if you hunt a lot, the DPMS is the way to go. If you just want a defensive weapon, then maybe the FAL. I think most here will hunt more than use them in a SHTF situation. If you are defending your home, homestead, you will probably still need an AR type weapon for closer in. The 308 would be more for longer range and hunting. Real close, then it gets to shotguns and handguns.
The FAL is THE .308 battle rifle. It won against the M14 in US tests so the US went back and basically rigged the tests to make the M14 win. That doesn�t mean the M14 is a bad rifle by any means, I love the M14, but the FAL is just a superior rifle. The AR-10 didn�t even come close, and the current AR-10�s all have some proprietary parts, and none of them have been thoroughly battle tested with the exception of the M110 Sniper System (which is borderline, and has had some issues). The FAL is the most thoroughly tested .308 battle rifle in existence. It is not as accurate as an AR-10, but it is accurate enough that you can bag a deer out to 600 yards if you�re up to the task. I�ve heard people say the FAL isn�t easy to put optics on, and I wonder where they�re getting that. DSA makes a fantastic Picatinny rail top cover that allows you to mount optics just as easy as an AR-10. As for magazines, FAL metric magazines are cheap, and they are as battle proven as a .308 magazine can be. Your preference for the L1A1 means an Inch FAL and those magazines are more expensive; but just as good. Parts for a FAL are as cheap as they get, and readily available even in the darkest corners of the globe. Accessories are readily available and you can do most anything you want with a FAL. If you have to have a FAL that shoots those itty-bitty groups, then DSA makes a heavy barrel target version, but they�re a bit heavy. Lastly, the balance and ergonomics of the FAL are simply outstanding. In battle, you don�t have bench rests and you mostly shoot offhand, and nothing balances like a FAL (although the M14 comes close).
Everyone these days wants the AR-10, and I will admit the AR-10 makes a fantastic range toy because it shoots itty-bitty groups. I that�s your main concern go with the AR-10. But if you want something that is truly a battle rifle, then you�d be selling yourself short by considering that AR-10 over the FAL.
Very well said
I have an optic dust cover for my FAL as well as the original, its easier and faster to change from optics to irons than on any AR-10
I think a lot of people love whats new and cool, be my guest, but you would hard pressed to find a rifle that will do everything as well as the FAL
The RRA LAR-8. For $1500, there is no better 308 platform. they also offer 243 and 7-08 uppers. Check my other comment on another thread looking to buy a 308 AR.
My brother has a 243 LAR-8 and it is crazy accurate. Everything you feed it is under .75" with no load developement at all.
My LAR-8 is as accurate as any bolt gun I own. The best group I ever shot with the LAR-8 is around .165" and the best bolt action group was .101". My LAR-8 will consistantly shoot under .75" with hunting ammo and even 40yr old ball ammo is under 2".
The problem is it weighs more than it needs to, is designed to handle mid pressure loads and is no where near as handy as an AR-15 carbine for up close, so it's a compromise.
Give me a 223/5.56 carbine and when I need to punch holes through things at distance, I'll take my XCR Tactical bolt gun. Not that I didn't try the 308 auto a few times thing but it just didn't work out when I crunched the numbers.
I wouldn't mind an LAR 8, but do the mags just slap in like on an AR-15 or do you have to hook the front and then push up the back? That being said, the FAL with the rail dust cover is ok, but if you want to do a quick cleaning, you have to unscrew the the sides to take the cover off. I had one, and my scope never went back to zero exactly. In the AR platform either the DPMS with Magpul mags, or the LAR 8 with FAL mags, it is easier to break down for cleaning. Fewer parts especially on the gas system. That is why I want to sell my FAL and get a DPMS or RR AR style platform.
I don't know if it is in your price range, but a lot of guys in my unit are reporting really good results with the Larue OBR. Not being a gas gun type I don't own one, but guys I trust love them.
AR-10 mags - including the Armalite proprietary mags, are only $30 ea when bought in bulk packs, and the FAL mags are not a whole heckuva lot cheaper.
I'm hoping that when Romney's elected there will be a big sigh of relief, and black guns in general will come down some in price. If that happens then I might buy an FAL to tinker with, and see what it will do. I think the FAL is the only pretty black rifle
There was a survey done at FAL Files, and about 1/2 their owners reported that 2.5 MOA was the best they could get out of their rifles. I am disinclined to spend a pile of money on another rifle system, which might not shoot any better than an AK, and weighs as much as an AR-10
The problem is it weighs more than it needs to, is designed to handle mid pressure loads and is no where near as handy as an AR-15 carbine for up close, so it's a compromise.
Give me a 223/5.56 carbine and when I need to punch holes through things at distance, I'll take my XCR Tactical bolt gun. Not that I didn't try the 308 auto a few times thing but it just didn't work out when I crunched the numbers.
While the 308 sized platform does weigh more than the .223 sized guns, my LAR-8 Predator starts out at 8.5pounds before ammo and scope. That is not all that much heavier than a standard hunting rifle, and still weighs about the same a a typical varmit/sniper rifle.
As far as mid-pressure loads, the LAR-8 will eat any ammo I feed it. 47grs of WIN 748 isn't a mid-range load. Like any gas gun, you taylor the powder burn rate to the gas system, not the powder charge.
I wouldn't mind an LAR 8, but do the mags just slap in like on an AR-15 or do you have to hook the front and then push up the back? That being said, the FAL with the rail dust cover is ok, but if you want to do a quick cleaning, you have to unscrew the the sides to take the cover off. I had one, and my scope never went back to zero exactly. In the AR platform either the DPMS with Magpul mags, or the LAR 8 with FAL mags, it is easier to break down for cleaning. Fewer parts especially on the gas system. That is why I want to sell my FAL and get a DPMS or RR AR style platform.
The FAL mags slip into the LAR-8 just like AR-15 mags do.
"As far as mid-pressure loads, the LAR-8 will eat any ammo I feed it. 47grs of WIN 748 isn't a mid-range load. Like any gas gun, you taylor the powder burn rate to the gas system, not the powder charge."
47 grs of w748 isn't anywhere close to the ragged edge, it's not even a listed max with a 150 gr bullet. But at least it shoots good. How do 5 shot groups turn out?
"As far as mid-pressure loads, the LAR-8 will eat any ammo I feed it. 47grs of WIN 748 isn't a mid-range load. Like any gas gun, you taylor the powder burn rate to the gas system, not the powder charge."
47 grs of w748 isn't anywhere close to the ragged edge, it's not even a listed max with a 150 gr bullet. But at least it shoots good. How do 5 shot groups turn out?
I go by the reloading manuals and 47grs is getting to the top or within a grain of the max listed. I generally start about 1 grain under max with my guns and see what I get.
I've never tried 5 shot groups with any rifle except my heavy barrel varmit rifle. There are varying thoughts on which is best, but multiple 3 shot groups are just as effective. I feel that when you get into doing 5 shot groups, more comes into play than the gun or load. The person doing the shooting, the weather conditions, the fatigue factor, etc. all start to effect the results.
There was a survey done at FAL Files, and about 1/2 their owners reported that 2.5 MOA was the best they could get out of their rifles. I am disinclined to spend a pile of money on another rifle system, which might not shoot any better than an AK, and weighs as much as an AR-10
If it's a range toy, then I'd be inclined to agree with you. But if it was intended as a serious fighting rifle, I�d gladly give up the accuracy edge for the additional reliability. And at 2.5 MOA I�m wondering what you�re likely to shoot at that you�ll miss due to mechanical accuracy? Most never leave the shooting bench, and from a bench the FAL doesn't impress others at the range.
I don't know. My chances of using it to ward off bad guys are slim unless a complete economic or other catistrophic breakdown. 99% of the rest of the time, I would hunt with one and shoot it occationally to keep up my skills and keep it working and clean. Therefore my reason for wanting to change from a FAL system to an AR system. FAL system parts have all but dried up around here, 308 AR systems are being sold at all gun stores and at Walmart now.
Well, all the 308 platforms I have seen in various stores like Walmart, Academy Sports, and home owned gun stores has been the DPMS platform. With Remingtons backing, their platform is probably going to win out. They use Magpul Pmags. I've also noticed several smaller companies are going this route also.
Not just DPMS and Remington. KAC, LMT, LaRue, and MEGA all use DPMS pattern receivers. Those are some big names, I dont think the DPMS .308 platform is going anywhere soon. AR's big and small are quickly becoming the modern sporting rifle.
Yes, they are more accurate that the FN Fal, a little lighter, and have a multitude of options for sights and accessories. The trigger assemblies are the same as the AR-15.
I bought an HK 91 over the FAL. My reasoning is this: FAL's were made in both Imperial and Metric standards. One type parts don't belong in the other. The HK was always Metric. I'm not saying the HK is better. And I'm not disputing the FAL's record of accomplishment. I just didn't want any Charlie Foxtrot over parts and magazines.
I bought an HK 91 over the FAL. My reasoning is this: FAL's were made in both Imperial and Metric standards. One type parts don't belong in the other. The HK was always Metric. I'm not saying the HK is better. And I'm not disputing the FAL's record of accomplishment. I just didn't want any Charlie Foxtrot over parts and magazines.
I believe that if you get the Metric FAL, it will also accept the Imperial magazines, but not the other way around.
The FAL, I believe, is ergonomically somewhat superior to the HK91, and has that pressure adjustment valve that the HK doesn't have, but the HK is every bit as rugged and reliable, and more than accurate enough. I recently sold my FAL after acquiring a PTR GI, which is an HK91/G3 clone. It's considered by many to be the best clone available.
Back in the 1980s, I had the real thing, but stupidly sold it just a few years after buying it.
Back in the 70's, 80's, and 90's. "assault rifles" were my "thing". I owned or tried just about everything available. I owned many HK G3, 41, 91, and 93 models as well as a number of FALs. As far as accuracy, my worst shooting HK shot better than my best FAL. These were all "out of the box" rifles with no "smithing" of any kind. All my HK's shot at least 2 moa and several consistently under 1 moa. My FALs were 2-3 moa guns. But when it comes to ergonomics and handling, the FAL is the hands down winner. The controls are in the right place and they point like a fine shot gun. Close your eyes and shoulder an FAL, and when you open your eyes your looking through the sights. As far a reliability it's a toss up, but the simplicity of the HK system gives it a theoretical advantage. In .308, I also owned one or more M1A, BM59/62, Galil, and Valmet rifles. Although not an assault rifle, the sweetest shooting military style .308 I ever owned was a Navy Match M1 Garand. Extremely accurate and almost zero muzzle rise. I have not played with any AR type .308's, but I'm interested. There seems to be a lot of inconsistency in the models I can afford, and I don't like problems. So, I keep watching and waiting for for the cream to rise to the top. None of this is "ground breaking technology" and the only reason for unreliability is sloppy manufacturing combined with poor quality control.
You are in AZ go look up Hogan Rifles. They have a very good 308 AR platform. You just may like it.
Sincerely, Thomas
Thanks Thomas, Hogan does indeed make a beautiful AR.308. Unfortunately it's out of my price range. If I can ever get my hands on that much "moola", I'd probably go for an FN SCAR-17. Thanks again and take care, Tim
The beauty of the AR platform is you can add a gas valve, a gas piston if you don't like the tube blow back. They come with or without rails on top for mounting stuff. Straight or adjustable stocks. Various forend, plain to rails all around. With just a few tools, one can completely assemble one from scratch.
To me a disadvantage is the barrel end is heavy and doesn't balance as well, not like a standard rifle. But I guess this would help with recoil and to stay on target.
I feel as if the AR-15 platform is great east of the Mississippi. With 60+ grain bullets you can kill a deer, unless it is illegal in your state, or you can add an upper in 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel for hunting.
West of the Mississippi or Alaska, you need range and knock down power, especially for elk. With the LR308 platform, you can get a 243, 260Rem, 7mm08, or a 338 Federal barrel without changing magazines, thus giving you a serious hunting selection of calibers from the same platform. Also, Armalite is now making their platform to accept the Pmags. So, it does look like the LR308 platform is winning out. Rock River makes theirs to accept FAL metric or English mags, and I think one company makes theirs to accept M1A mags. I also think one company makes their to accept the Centme mags.
There is no way I would ever consider lugging an LR308 type rifle in the mountains, even little ones, chasing deer, elk, bear and such critters. Just no reason too, at all.
My issue with the FAL's on the shelves is whether or not they have been built with BOTH metric and Imperial parts imported from various Countries. No one knows when they buy one.
It usually doesn't matter. You can spot where most parts are from if you are educated on the subject. In fact, I like combining the best features from several. A mutt? Yes, but they still run well.
The only issue I'm aware of is matching the gas block height to the rear sight.
With the right barrel, right handguard, the 308 platform in AR is not any heavier than a FAL, Cetme, HK91 or Springfield MIA. It is however more modular, ergonomic, and you don't have to have all the bells and whistles on it. Sights and a scope is all you really need. To me the others mentioned are heavier because of the all steel construction and gas piston systems. Hunting, you don't have to use a 20 round mag either, a simple 5 rounder will do. The AR-15 platform is light, and if you use a 6.8 or 6.5 for deer hunting, you can also use fewer rounds to lighten the load.
