I've heard these are extremely quiet.

How good are they on Deer size animals?

What is the maximum effective range for deer?

Is factory ammo available?

Is it worth buying an upper?

they are only quiet if suppressed and the ammo is subsonic.

Other than that, IMHO its a 30-30 which means about a 200-250 yardish gun to me.

Ammo is out there

Check out the 300 AAC forum. I don't have it handy but I bet a google would get you there.

I"m still waiting for a reply from Rock barrels RE their barrel before I buy that part. Add a blemished upper and a few otehr parts and I"m good to go.

Well, would it be better to order a 6.8 SPC or a 6.5 Grendel? They may have longer range and knock down power. Seems like the only reason to get one is for the subsonic suppressed reason.

Thats my take on it personally. Thats exactly why I"m putting one together.

some rounds are quieter than others and bore diameter vs pressure is an issue to my ears. But supersonic is just loud to me regardless mostly.

I'd go for what you need to use it for personally. I have a 50 beowulf upper that I use mostly in swamps as I want a big hole to start with and then expansion.... trailing blood in water sometimes kinda sucks...

If I wanted longer range, I've shot the Grendel type rounds out to 600 yards very easily before. Did some of the test firing for the Grendel when it was still 6.5 ppc.... I don't have one, but will at some point.

Jeff

rost495, did you look at the 458 Socom, or 450 Bushmaster when you bought the 50 Beowulf? I reload, and it seems like the 50 Beowulf would be hard and then there is the availability of bullets. The 458 Socom can take 45-70 bullets. There seems to be a lot of cartridges trying to fit the AR magazine well. I like the 6x45 which is a 223 necked up to 6mm which is 243. Doesn't have the power of a 243, but seems to have more umpth than the 223 and it uses the same bolt and magazine. Same with the 300 AAC. The 50 Beowulf, I think uses the same bolt for the 7.62x39 as well as the 6.5 Grendel.

6.8 SPC is an excellent round for deer...... .277 cal bullet

I'd say it's almost a .30-30

Search here and you'll find some threads on the Blackout and folks' experience with them. I have one as the HD gun, loaded with 220 subsonic ammo. I also shot one deer with it, and watched the deer run off. Good blood trail, but never found it

I've started working with 110gr barnes Tac-tx, and supersonic loads. Debating on shooting a deer again with it, or with subsonic loads.

Being a .277 is enough reason not to use it. Grins... my 6.8 is necked down to 6mm..... its just me though, I can't stand .277 for some reason.

I did look a bit. But had a line on a 50 for cheaper.... and plus I know Bill Alexander a bit, and personally shot competition with the guy that did the Grendel design.... so it was kinda a set deal...

the socom would be better, more choices of bullets, cheaper bullets, and the same suppressor could be used for a 45-70, 45acp and so on.....

All that means I'll have a socom at some point in my future... But the 50 with big Barnes or hard cast would not make me feel underpowered going after a wounded grizzly or such...

Have you considered a 7.62X39 upper? The Russian round is a "30-30 class" cartridge. Factory ammo is readily available and can be found in 123 JSP and 150 JSP, which should be good for deer out to over 200 yards.

Just a thought.

If your going to shoot deer with a subsonic 300 loads, invest in some good tracking dogs...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgKjbySsAik

Just happened upon this very subject on another forum. Here's the link.

300 AAC Blackout, thought and feelings

From what I have read, some people have misconceptions. It isn't a long range caliber.

In subsonic loads with a silencer, I've been told by people who hunt hogs, that the hogs can't here the shot, and the herd just stands around, and you can pick them all off quietly. Under 100 yards, that it the reason for the 300 AAC.

In hot loads, it has 7.62x39 ballistics, and downrange at 150-200 yards actually more accurate.

You shoot heavy bullets to make it subsonic, and lighter bullets like 125 gr or 110 gr for supersonic loads.

Brass can be made from 223 brass, and 30 cal bullets are easy to find.

I wouldn't shoot a deer over 100 yards, but in a stand over a small greenfield or in the woods.

That being said, I like the 6.5 Grendel best, followed by the 458 Socom for actual big game hunting. There again, the 458 Socom is limited in kill range, more like the 45-70.

I also like the idea of the 6x45, not as powerful as a 243, but could hit fairly hard and legal for deer in most states and it too uses the 223 brass.

Or better yet actually know WTF you are talking about and do it right, and don't require a dog. Using right bullet, right placement, subsonic is no different than supersonic. Period.

I often wonder how some folks don't find deer if they don't bang flop every time......FWIW everytime I've used my lab to help find a deer, its been by supersonic loads.... once a 223, once a 7 stw, and once an 06....

Also, what about black power rifles, 45-70's etc. A lot a subsonic just bigger bullets. With the 300 AAC you won't take 200 yard shot. Short range quiet hunting. Cheap to make cartridges from 223. Same with 6x45.

Keep the 5.56 and load heavy bullets for deer. A 1-8 twisted barrel with a supersonic bullet "on average" has to be tougher to get to shoot. Bill Wilson and I agree on this I think. On the other hand if you have a can then why not.

I'll take a 200 yard shot with an AAC in a heartbeat but I'm anal about things, making sure i have the right bullet, can place it correctly, know the range, know the cross wind if any etc... IE this past weekend with 30 mph cross winds, no way but given workable data, and if you are anal about testing as I am, I'd have no qualms.

I've taken deer over 300 yards out with a 45 cal muzzleloader and sabots that are not all that much supersonic IMHO, and does just fine.

Shot placement has a LOT to do with death, as does bullet performance.

That being noted I"m the one that watched a buck get shot in BOTH lungs at about 125 with an 06 and the buck lived to be shot 3 weeks later healed up.... you just never know, nothing is 1000%.

As to 223 and heavy bullets, yeah BTDT more than once, but there are really no flies on a lot of the rounds mentioned here. I have a coyote with the x39 at over 500 yards. Couple of pigs with the same at 300ish. 6mm WOA which is 6.8 necked down, more than a few deer approaching 300. Its all in how you approach things. Much more so in the end than what you actually choose to use, so long as you know and stay within its limitations.

I struggle with the concept of a 1-8 twisted 30 cal.

What about a 6 or 6.5 twisted .224 barrel?

The Noveske barrel on my rig is actually 1:7"...

There always can surface a bit of what is ignorance of what can and does work. Ignorance is not meant in a derogative term, simply the truth.

I"ve run 52 grain BTHP in 223 in a 6.5 twist with no issues around 3350 fps.... Most would think that would torch the bullet instantly... does just fine and plenty accurate thank you.

how many benchrest guns are twisted that fast Jeff? I think Bill Wilson and Savage are right on this one.

Who needs a bench gun when they can shoot a highpower rifle?

Point is, you don't know what you are talking about on this one. You don't twist for a caliber... you twist for the bullet and velocity you are chasing...


And I'm not flaming ya either, its pretty much exactly what the benchresters do. You match the bullet length mostly, to the MV, to get your twist. They don't over stabilize at all because they shoot very short range shots, others like us tend to overdo it a hair because where BR stops mostly is whwere we start mostly and head on towards 1000 yards there so stability is key.

Where an 8 twist 30 cal might be ignorant in a 300 wtby driving 150 grain bullets( some folks believe in light bullets for some reason) the same twist isn't with a slow 240 grain 30 cal. And vice versa the slow twist for trhe 300 wtby, would leave the 240 slow 30 cal almost tumbling as it left the barrel.

so exactly what you just said pardner. You twist for bullet and velocity...and they have put a 1-8 twist in a gun that runs both supersonic bullets and 220 grain subsonic bullets and call it good.

I believe I let the shot go too high on the doe I lost, shot with the .300 and 220 Matchkings. Not a bad shot - a bang flop with a .270 IME, but it sure didn't work in that case. Realize if sighted for 100 yards, the bullet - even one as streamlined as a MK, will have enough trajectory to be 4" high at 50 yards, and the shot was at about 60 yards. If I try it again, I need to be exacting on placement, in the heart or just over it. I dunno, maybe the Berger would be a better choice too, even though neither bullet is designed for game at those velocities.

I still like the gun/cartridge, but I may go for a Noveske 1:7 stainless barrel, just to get a little more twisty. Maybe I'll even give 240's a try at subsonic speed.

The other comment I would make, though, is I read the .300 is the equal of the 7.62x39. I'll say, not exactly - since the Rooskie round will drive 123's as fast as the .300 will run 110's. Neither of them equal to a .30-30, which even in a lever action will drive 160's to the high 2300's - and even higher in a strong action.

I kinda like the idea of the 7.62x40, but have seen no barrels suitible for subsonic heavy bullets.

I will concede I know nothing about nothing, on the other hand I also stubbornly believe a Jack of all trades is a master of none.

rsilvers will drive by soon to set me straight!

If someone could point to a single thing other than subsonic it would do head and shoulders better I would go out and spend $900 on an AAC upper!

The latest research is that 1:8 twist is a good thing even for 308 - because it helps the bullet expand by the rotational force, and improves terminal effects. Also, there is some evidence that it helps the bullet survive the transonic boundary and increases the ability to shoot much longer range.

So I would use 1:8 or 1:7 even for full power 308.

300 BLK has 16.7% more energy than 7.62x39mm at 300 meters. There is not a single 7.62x39mm factory load which is more powerful than 300 BLK past 120 yards. I have posted much proof of this before, along with photos, but it is a pain to re-locate this stuff that I have said in the past each time it comes up.

well...

644 ft-lbs at 300 yards:

http://www.hornady.com/store/7.62X39-123-gr-ZMAX-Steel-Case/

and their .300 whisper load, 622 ft-lb at 300 yards:

http://www.hornady.com/store/300-Whisper-110gr-vmax/

But I'll agree it's a lot easier to find good .308 bullets than .310-.312. And the cartridge itself is a better for the AR platform. That's what I'm keeping for a house gun, and I do like the cartridge.

But the 7.62x39 is a bigger case, although held to lower pressures. I wouldn't try it in an AK or even an AR, but a strong action could be warmed up even further.

x39 in my nephews AR upper has run fine at warmer pressures FWIW.

RE 8 being a compromise twist, is simply that you stabilize the slowest longest and that most of the ones that need less, won't suffer any more. IE the 6 and 6.5 twists in 224 for my 223 ARs. I"d have NEVER dreamed that 52s would shoot in a barrel and chamber that we designed specifically for 90 jlks at the time.

My BR buddy that changed over to highpower kept saying it might not be a compromise gun. But danged if it wasn't. Worked just fine. And amazed me.e

He still errs to the side that says slow twist and is the one that convinced me that a twist in 223 can stabilize 80s without any issues.

Yet, what good is a 240 or whatever out of the ACC if its not stable and accurate? So yes some folks do compromises. I don't on purpose, IE I'm going to head for a barrel that will take subsonic big bullets, because thats how its going to be used. If it works with 115s supersonic thats a plus.

In this all we never need to forget that the standard 223, as you've said so well, especially IMHO, with TSX bullets, kills damn near anything with ease that its pointed at in the deer/hog world.
Personally given that I hold to certain parameters, I would not be afraid to take on an elk with it either.
We did watch a good friends wife that shot lots of matches with us, ding a 250ish pound white tail buck that almost made book 2 years ago, 223 and 69 SMK.... one shot in the lungs and he took a few steps, looked around and fell over.

As noted nothing flaming or personal but each situation can be different, and while many subscribe to whatever the writers write about, I do all my research myself and set my guns up according to their intended task. Be it a slow twist poof varmint gun for mid range shots or a fast twist for whatever that happens to be applicable to.

Hope that makes sense. And of course you know by now I hate buying a built AR package as most of the crap I don't want, but some things I specifically want and most don't utilize them the way we do.

That states a 20 inch barrel - standard for 7.62x39mm. 300 BLK velocities are always given for 16 inch barrels.

There is no 7.62x39mm factory load which has more energy than 300 BLK past 120 yards. I am not guessing - I checked. And 300 BLK has 16.7% more energy at 300 meters.

BUT IIRC this link is not comparing reloads to reloads, the AR can handle higher pressures than what most X39 is loaded to by factories IIRC.
Regardless to me the 2 are extremely similar to each other in the end.

Larger case with equal bullets will always yield more energy and velocity. You can't hype your way out of that.

It is what it is, it can't be anymore.

Yeah, it is, but the x39 IMHO just doesn't have enough more on it, to make a real difference in the end for most applications.

I shy away due to the magazine fact, though my nephew has a few that work flawlessly.

I'd rather take it based off the 223 since I have probably close to 100K cases that I could play with also.

I also consider my 6 woa to be a 243 light so to speak, I've done everything with it that I've ever done with a regular 243 and they are more apart than the x39 vs the AAC. X39 with a 308 bore really doesnt' have that many flaws.

Not much difference in case capacity on a 223 vs a 223 AI either but 2.5 grs is 10% and shows up on the chronograph. The 7.62x39 mag issue was solved, I'll send you a pm.

I don't own an AI 223 and have never seen the need.

Of course I dont' shoot my 300 mags as much as I used to either, since I had a good 308 built....

I would have to go x39 over BO RRA makes a good lower don't they for the X39 and AK mags?

How about reloads rsilvers?

Subsonic loads do not kill as well, it doesn't matter what you fairy tale you want to tell yourself, or how much you wish the laws of physics did not exist. Supersonic loads kill better on any similar shot-- period. We can can shoot unlimited deer here in my area, and I used a 300 Whisper extensively for years, and I can shoot. If you think sub sonic loads kill as well, see if you feel the same way after you shoot 100+ deer with sub sonic loads. They will kill for sure, but not consistently and reliably.

Dead is dead.

You can get into arguments on bang flops vs running off.

We could debate that they all die at the same speed vs how fast or far they bleed vs how scared or suprised they are.

It can go on forever. One can easily argue that supersonic does more damage because it probably frags more. More damage is bled out quicker.

OTOH I shot one the other day with a slow but not subsonic bullet. Deer lived about as long as the ones I've shot with 308s and 300s time wise. But he wasnt' nearly spooked, and only decided to make a last run because he was getting wobbly. You could argue though, had it been a loud blast he'd have run the whole time.. bleeding quicker due to elevated heart rate and BP.

Bottom line here, I"ve shot not 100 deer subsonic, but probably about 15 or so. And not with a can or fancy stuff. but with a 45 acp and 44 special. They run off and die like almost every other deer I've shot with supersonic.

There is no magic when you break the sound barrier. After all that can be just 1 fps faster than sub....

I will agree though, that seemingly the faster the bullet goes, and the more frangible it is, when shot not into a CNS spot or major bones. IE ribs hitting both lungs, the faster it goes the more the odds are of bang flops.

Being a bowhunter for many years with over 100 bowkills(all subsonic, grins), I expect the deer to run when I shoot unless I'm head shooting(rifle). You go find em no big deal. If you need a bang flop, then CNS is where I shoot or I don't shoot at all.

Where we are talking here is a difference between supersonic and sub with an AAC vs something like the x39 round, there will never be enough difference to me, to make it worth worrying about. The difference to be seen will be the subsonic vs a 257 wtby or such. Even then, my buddy has yet to see a bang flop with the 257, but none have gone more than about 30-50 yards ever.

The only reason to use subsonic is a noise issue. If thats your case, then pick the right setup and projectile, know your limits and stay within those bounds and then know that inside those bounds those deer/pigs will be as dead as any supersonic round ever will be average wise.

The only deer I've seen survive a centerfire rifle shot was a double lunged buck shot with 06 and 165 SGKs at about 125 yards.... thats definitely supersonic.

If I had a choice though and noise was not an issue, then why limit myself to a round that can't perform at the distances I can. So when noise is not an issue, I'm rarely carrying anything thats not effective in the wind, out to around 600 plus yards or so. Unless I"m feeling froggy and decide to take the 1911, or the slow levers, or my MZs and such.

220gr+ 30 cal bullets are not designed to upset in game at subsonic speeds. You can't compare 45-70 flat lbt style or jacketed bullets for that cartridge to a 208gr amax subsonic. You certainly can't compare that to the way an arrow kills. There is a company that manufactures bullets to operate at subsonic speeds.

Yep, just what I've been saying , you pick and choose for what you are doing. There are LEhigh bullets to expand and one more that I can't think of right now.

The ones that expand do their job just fine.

I'm all in with the 300 blk. Building an upper. Got 1000 cases so far. I'm sticking with 3 bullets - light Sierra's made for the round, Barnes made for the round for hunting, and 220 Sierra's to go subsonic. Got my name on an in-stock 7.62SDN6 and have 6 total blackout brake/flashiders for both 223's and 308's.

Have a schittload of H110 for my big bore revolvers, so I'm good on powder for awhile.

Can't wait to try out subsonic with a can, but I'll probably be waiting about 6 months.

The ease of switching from supersonic to subsonic and vice-versa is what attracted me. And I don't think the Barnes bullet will have any problem killing deer at the ranges I hunt.

Folks been killing deer with small round balls for years. With little to no frags, and not much expansion typically...

I'm about tired of listening to all the naysayers.

Yea. They ain't that hard to kill.........especially our little west Texas Whitetails.

When you see em live with an 06 round through both lungs, you realize some aren't going to die regardless. And then when you realize in early years, especially in the hill country, how friggin many deer were shot with 22lr in the lungs to feed the family... it would stagger the folks these days. Talk to some of the old timers around......

Of course it doesn't mean I don't own a handful of magnums either...