I put my first AR together a while back with the following components:

Stiller Lower
VLTOR MUR upper
Black Hole 18" barrel with mid length gas system
Geissele SSA-E trigger
A2 buffer tube, buffer, spring and stock.
13" Troy Tactical VTAC Alpha handguard.

Loaded a bunch of ammo with range brass which I prepped and sorted, with a random load of TAC (24gr, IIRC) behind 68gr Hornady BTHPs.

Shot a 10 shot group at 100m and this is what I got. The grid is 1cm increments. I was pleased, but am wondering if I should do some methodical load development in the pursuit of better. Can I expect much better out of an AR?

John

Thats pretty good. Sort your brass by headstamp and I bet your accuracy improves. 1-1.25 MOA is about what I get with mixed brass reloads. With a good hand load, I am usually good for a consistent 3/4 MOA. I squeeze out 1/2 MOA 3 shot groups all the time but 5-10 shot groups open it up a little bit.

I get good results with Varget for some reason, I use WW brass and with 65 grain Sierra's, my cheap Colt pencil barreled gun will turn in under 3/4 MOA for just 3 shots however. For the rounds you fired that is pretty good.

No clue what a black hole barrel is capable of...

But with a few guns we did all on our own years ago, probably close to 18 years ago, Krieger tubes chambered and we assembled, I managed a 5 shot group around 1.25 inches also. At 600 yards.

What I expect and is my goal is .5 MOA for 10 shot groups, and I generally test for that at 300 yards trying to get to 1.5 inch groups. I will settle for as bad as 2, but if worse than that I pull the barrel after trying other thigns and replace it.

Fairly standard load to test barrel ability is LC or WW brass, 25.0 Varget, CCI BR4 and 69 sierra match king at 2.250 OAL.

What kind of velocity do you get from that load?

From what I've seen published on set-ups like that, that is pretty typical. You may do a little better, down to maybe 3/4", but that is pretty darn good as-is.

You know too, it can be tough to get the absolute best groups out of an AR shooting from a bench & bags.

What sights did you use?

Can't recall, its been about 96 or so since we quit shooting Varget in the 223, but that load was pretty much a blind given if you needed something to run with and no time to test etc.. in the AR.

cbmjr, I think you would find yourself right around 2500 fps or a fraction higher with the 25.0/69 load rost shared with you.

Randy

I would think faster than that, but maybe 18 looses lots of speed.

I would think that load should have approached 2850 in a 20 inch tube. IIRC.

I know I"ve never run a heavy bullet as slow as 2500 in a 20. Not even a 90.

But 25 used to be towards the top pressure wise. Of course like anything Varget has varied in burn rate from lot to lot at times.

I've ran 24.5 with the 69's before and want to think i was getting around 2700-2750 from an 18" Noveske. Lately I've been shooting nothing but 77's but I have a few hundred 69's left. I may try out that load and see how they do.

Thanks.

Yeah, you should get about 2,800+ fps with that Varget load. Depends on your chamber & round count on the barrel.

I may have been wrong. I am going to check my noted later this evening.
I started thinking on the way home that I push a 62 gr. Barnes with a similar amount of Varget much faster than my 2500.

Randy

Sierra lists 24.9 grs at 2700 and 26.1 at 2850 from a 20" barrel at 2.260".

Sierra's accuracy load (IIRC 25.2) has been hot in some of my barrels, not in some others. All Wyldes. It was primer piercing in a CLE.

As usual, start low,work up. YMMV.

I appreciate the responses. Consensus seems to be it might do a little better, so I'll work with it a little more. Gonna stay with TAC though. It just meters too nice to ignore for high volume shooting.

John

I got a bunch of TAC which does fine with 62 TSX just seems varget makes a more accurate load with the Sierra bullets for me anyway

Varget never produced the velocity I wanted in 223 or 22-250, it does produce some accurate loads but so does TAC. I've ran TAC with 50's to 77's and have never been disappointed.

TAC has been my favorite .223 powder for 69's and 77's. I have recently been using RL-15 and Varget due to TAC becoming almost extinct. Can't find that stuff anywhere.

TAC is a good powder. But to think you have to throw accurate charges of Varget is folly often. Even if you are off a few tenths, if you are in a sweet spot, it won't matter at all.

Have run a LOT of Varget and RL15 through dillons over the years and continued to win matches. Just FWIW.

If I had to start over again and couldn't use N540 in matches, I'd look to see if TAC was temperature insensitive enough for our temps and if so, run with it. Its produced some good groups and velocities with 77s for us over the years in one particular match we shot wiht a lot of differnet barrels between team members.

I only have a dozen or so Black Hole barrels but I can say that it is almost certainly capable of more. I've seen lots of groups down in the 3's and 4's with a 2 thrown in to get the juices flowing occasionally. Drop over to their forum and look over some of the goodness.

Greg

How many shots in those groups in the 3s and 4s?

John

I may have missed it but what are you using for sights/optics?

I mount a 16x SS for load development and long range play and a Burris 1-4 MTAC for general duty. The 10 shot group was shot with the 16x SS.

John

That should be enough scope. I have a son-in-law who can never get the accuracy out of his rifles he would like. But he uses a 3x9 fat cross hair, on an unweighted lead sled shooting at a big round black target. Just going to a finer wire crosshair in a 16-20 power scope on sand bags shooting at an electrical tape + has brought his groups down to under an inch. You cant hit, what you cant see.

I don�t know what twist your barrel is but it will make a difference in accuracy for bullet weight. Based on your rifle twist it is best to test several bullets for your twist to see which your rifle likes best. Scope power makes a difference also but 16x should be enough power for accurate work. I have a Colt 24 inch heavy barrel target 223 and it will shoot about half inch 5 shot groups off the bench if I do my part with good hand loads. I do not shoot 10 round groups. I load thousands of rounds by hand on a single press no progressive. I trim and clean all my brass. I use Nolser bullets and Varget and H335 powers. My Colt barrel is a 1 in 9 twist so it shoots 55 gr bullets about as well as any. I can buy lots of 500 ct bullets in 55 gr when not in short supply so it is my preferred bullet. I stocked up before this last run because I shoot lots of rounds every year.

OR, I shot 6.5 twists for many years.. shot from 52 to 90 well under MOA.

And that with iron sights.

So its not always twist, or power of scope or even trigger weight. We could not have less than 4.5 pounds pull weight.

Run with that....I can get .25-.50 3 n 5 shot groups with lots of work on loads bullets n how I baby brass....but for the most part she runs .75ish with no real work just a good hand load....they shoot great....I have bolt guns that don't do that....

When you shoot benchrest for tight groups twist and bullet weight plays a big part in overall accuracy. It may not matter shooting MOA with iron sights but all my rifles open up shooting benchrest with bullets not designed for the rifle�s twist. The rifles I keep all shoot better than MOA and they are scoped. I am too old to use iron sights any more.

Sorry I forgot to mention tiggers. Yes you need a good tigger for accuracy.

That's pretty funny.

I guess you missed the "well under" MOA part.

Well since you referenced MOA I assume you are closer to MOA than half inch which I referenced.
Besides I have never seen anybody shoot consistent half inch groups with iron sites.

With irons I'm well over MOA, Rost is who said well under MOA with irons. What he neglected to say is that is out to 600 yards, with irons. That's why it's funny, Rost was being humble.

Me, all of mine are scoped but only one has anything close to a target scope on it. It wears a 3.5-10 MK4 Leupold and is a Noveske SPR that shoots 1/2" groups at 100 I think, it's been awhile since I've shot it at 100. It will do 1/2 MOA at 200.

The other two are carbines, one is a chrome lined Colt pencil barrel wearing a 3x ACOG that does 1.5 MOA out to 400 yards. The other is a light weight Noveske wearing a VX6 1-6 with the thick Firedot reticle. It shoots MOA out to 400 as well, maybe further but I haven't ran it past there yet.

TRW how much TAC do you put under the 77 grain bullets in the LC brass for an accurate load in your guns? or just max?

Laser trainers I've been on from prone out of a sling at AMU and other places put me around .25 to .325 or so MOA wobble wise....

I don't keep an AR for matches unless it will keep 10 inside .5 moa or less.

My best group was 5 at about 1.25 inches. Not that I really cared cause we put a carpenters tape up against it just out of curiosity. But then that was at 600.

I'll give you this, I can't or couldn't shoot consistent half inch groups with irons. But I could easily consistently shoot under MOA without a bench, bags, or scope and with a trigger not less than 4.5 pounds. And not aperture front sight, Post required, not aperture.

Don't much care to advertise crap like above, but those that think things can't be done havent' tried em much.

I'll give ya shooting 0s to 2s or 3s consistently without a scope or lighter trigger would be tough, but I start at 200 yards and move back. I can't even recall the last time I shot anything much at 100 yards other than to verify someones deer rifle zero. Or coming up work with a subsonic round...

It depends on the case, WW I ran 24 grs flat in my Krieger but RP and LC I loaded 24.3 for the best accuracy and velocity was about the same.

I have loaded 24.5 in my Noveske chambered guns with both the Sierra and Nosler versions but 24.3 seems to be the sweet spot.

As for the twist, I've ran 1/12, 1/9, 1/8 and 1/7 and have never found the faster twists to open up a group with lighter bullets. Even my 1/8 22-250ai shoots 55 gr NBT's very well.

So for my uses, I'll stick with fast twists.

10-4 I am going to try 24.3 as a start and work to 24.6.

Interesing load TWR. IIRC our team rattle battle load that had to be good enough in 6 shooters guns, and of course we never had the same barrel brand, twist, chamber etc..... Partly due to my refusal to buy another douglas.. but I digress..

77 bthp in LC brass, CCI M41 primers, 2.240 oal, 24.2 TAC seemed to be the best of all worlds for that situation.

Jeff

With my 1/9 twist barrel I cannot shoot bullets less than 55 gr or in the upper 77 gr without my groups starting to open up.

I would love to shoot long ranges but I shoot at the Austin Rifle range and they took out the long range shooting for action pistol range which they installed in its place. So I am limited to 200 yards at the range.

Rost495 nice group at 600 yards. Maybe we should shoot sometime. I live in Elgin which is pretty close to La Grange. I am also retired so anytime works for me.

I shot many years in competition at ARC. I have my own range at home. But I work full time and volunteer EMS and Fire locally so there isn't much free time anymore. And I doubt I can shoot anywhere near as good as I could when I was tuned up.

Tell Paul and Rex and the whole bunch at ARC at the highpower matches hello! BTW if you want to see consistent tight iron sight groups watch Paul shoot when he is shooting his match rifle AR. His eyes kinda suck for service rifle post, but match rifle irons are a whole other ball game.

9 twist should shoot almost any bullet out there, from 40s to most 80s. If its opening up I'd question either the twist or that its not a top line barrel.

I've had several 1/9's that would bug hole 40 gr NBT's and a 1/8 Krieger that shot 45 gr WWB under 1/2" at 100. But I haven't shot anything much but 77's in years now.

77s don't impress me with excellent bug hole accuracy, neither do 75 bthp, the 75 amax and 75 JLKs have.

But the 77s/75s bthps, will consistently turn in around 2 inch or just under 10 shot groups at 300 yards. And thats sufficient for most days. And they buck the wind better than the light ones like 68/69s

I've shot my best groups with 50 gr NBT's but I like the way the 77's kill. And of course we now can shoot to 800 yards so I'll stick with the 77's. The last 1000 I loaded were Noslers and they don't group quite as good as Sierras but they open up a little quicker.

While I like accuracy, I don't shoot targets much anymore except with the 22 LR.

Interesitng note on the opening of the noslers. Never ran em since SMKs were more accurate. Now that I"m not competing, thats good info to know if i ever run out of 77 smks.

I agree, I like the way they kill.

I will tell them if I see them. I don�t shoot highpower much as I only have a stock Colt carbine which will work for highpower. It shoots about average. I like to shoot benchrest at ARC with my 308. As good as my target Colt AR is it cannot compete with my 308 bolt gun. I have been trying to shoot a perfect score of 250 in factory class. I have a 308 that shoots real well and I have gotten close with a 247 out of 250. With a real bench rest rifle it is easy to shoot 250 but factory class is a different matter. My problem now is I cannot get all my reload parts for my 308 so I have not been shooting. I should probably work up another load. I guess I am lazy, maybe soon.

Rost, I too love the 75 Amax but the 77 Leupy scenar has been almost magical in my Wylde chamber gas gun and AI version bolt gun. 24.8 TAC BR4's Leupy brass puts a smile on my face. Now it's probably easier to make me smile with my skill level than it is for you.

I have had it to 600 in the gas gun and like I said, they make me smile. I have been told they are a solid killer but I have been there done that with a 62 TTSX and they made a believer out of me.

Randy

Do you know who makes the SS barrels for Colt? I have a Colt 6724. It shoots pretty well out of the box and better than the other chrome lined barrels I shot against.
I actually own 2 6724 uppers and one lower as I bought a second upper for a spare. They both shoot about the same. I cannot tell a difference between them.

what is a leupy scenar? Never heard of that. Leupold makes brass? And a Lapua Scenar in 77 grians in .224?

Coxhaus

Time to buy a years worth of stash when supply comes around again. I was amazed how many didn't, many years ago when primer scare hit the first time.

After that we kept spare bullets, primers and powder and cases enough to shoot a complete year, and never touched it.. rotated yes, but never touched.

Thats probably why I have 100ish pounds of WC852 and almost 50 of N540 and I haven't even counted the SMKs laying around in .224 cal.

Good luck. BTW as you know, for short range, like 200-250 yards, a 125ish flat base even hunting bullet might work. I know Berger made something like that, that Nez used quite a bit for the real short range stuff like 200 and 300 yards.

I've always wondered who made those barrels but have never found a solid answer. Most of them shot pretty well.

Rost, I think he means Lapua.
http://www.lapua.com/en/products/new-products/2

I have bought Bergers from Nez. I am not sure he is a dealer any more. I will talk to him. The problem with a stash is it is not unlimited and it is hard to have a stash for everything. I own probably 20,000 primers but I ran out of the ones I need for my 308. I am also getting low on Varget powder. I am down to just 4 or 5 pounds. I own probably 60 or more pounds of powder but I seem to use more and more Varget.
I think all the bench rest shooters shoot flat base bullets. Boat tail bullets take some distance to stabilize. I was looking for a hunting bullet which would work as a target bullet but I don�t shoot deer with a 308 anymore. I have had some dead deer run with the 308. It turned off dark when I was looking for the last one shot with my 308. The last few years I now shoot deer with a 270 I have. All of the deer shot with my 270 have dropped in their tracks.

PS
I did find the deer but I had to look for it with a flashlight in the brush.

LOL, yessir Lapuar Scenar 77, You been hiding in Fayette County too long (grin)

I have always heard Green Mountain & Shaw.

I've never seen a round that drops every deer in its tracks. It does not exist.

What does drop them every time is shot placement. Enough said there.

I shoot a LOT of deer with 308 and 185 bergers..... never lost one. Never had DRT other than all the head shots. I"ve trailed a lot in the dark and in the day. No big deal to us but I am a bowhunter aslo and used to it.

Stash wise, IMHO, you are wrong. If you enjoy shooting competitive, then you know basically how many rounds you go through a year. We were around 20K rounds a year give or take. You buy enough ONCE to last through a season and then rotate it out the next year. But you leave it in reaserve. Then when a bad year hits you have to use it, but you start looking for more. Generally speaking in a year, you can find enough to make it to the next.

I've bought berger bullets lately.... sometimes a dealer has em, sometimes its next week etc... same with Barnes.

PS on the deer, if you don't want to trail em.. shoot ballistic tips, as fast as you can, and aim high.... I refuse to do that but its generally somewhat reliable.

Haha, I know exactly what a Lapua Scenar is. Just wasnt' sure on your misspellings twice. You never know if its a typo or something new is out there!

never have shot a Lapua bullet though, but brass yes.

Jeff

The benefit with 270 is the diameter and weight of the bullet with the amount of powder to the size of our deer. It is all a balance to the size of game you are shooting. I had a 25-06 that did about the same thing on deer as the 270. I also shot a 7 mag which did not work as well on deer because it had too much. I shot many deer with the 7 mag and the bullet always passed through without much damage and the dead deer would run the same as a 308. The 270 just seems to penetrate and expend killing energy to drop the deer better. I have never lost a deer except once a long time ago but tracking them into the bush after dark is a pain.
The only deer I have lost is when I was in high school in the late 60s. A friend and I were in a 20 foot high stand on an old wind mill which had been converted to a great deer stand. My buddy knocked my gun over and I did not think anything of it. It must have fallen on the scope. I did not see it as it was still dark. I shot a deer later on that morning and ended up gut shooting the deer. We never did find it. The scopes now days are much better than what we had in the 60s. After the miss I went and shot paper except it was not hitting the target it was so far off.

Jeff, sorry about the spelling - its been a long long time since someone tried to teach me to spell or much of anything for that matter.

I have had very good fortune with the Scenar's in .224 & .308

While I have NOWHERE near the experience or expertise that you have, for me they have out performed all!

Randy

coxhaus, while this is not the right forum to debate this, Headstamps do not kill! Bullets do! Given good bullets all of the calibers you mentioned might turn into you favorite!

Just a thought & idea!

Randy

Correct. All the deer are dead. It is just the style of the kill. Enough said by me.

For me the quickest killers have often been rounds dismissed.. 243 win. 257 wtby has been fairly quick too. I've shot a lot with 06. Never shot with a 270 as I dont' like that round because I didn't agree with OConnor at all.

But bottom line, any round that leaves 2 holes in a deer is leaving behind its energy in the dirt to an extent. A 308 starts with a wider diameter bullet and will still leave 2 holes.

As noted before, I"m firmly convinced speed is a big thing in inducing shock. As are frangible ballistic tip type bullets. I don't like to loose meat and I never shoot high or for bones except the head, and as such the majority of deer I shoot run a ways. Less than 100 and mostly less than 50 steps. Not a big deal to find even in South Texas type brush with a flashlight.

BUT anyone is welcome to use what works best for them. Except me, if I really want DRT, its shot placement over caliber that is the only thing that works 100% of the time.

Interesting anecdote... I started with a 243 Win as a youth around 4th grade. I hunted with that gun for probably at least 10 plus years before I bought a 300 wtby for larger game. Shot a lot of deer with it. The 243 hands down gave more bang flops with lung shots than the 300 did. The 300 gave only one and that was a frontal shot taht flipped a buck over. (not counting head shots on purpose)

Only round I've ever heard of that gave all bang flops was teh 220 swift and it never left an exit. I've never tried it... but that was the rumor from an older local guy that was a gun nut. His family swore he was both nuts to use it and right, it was like a lazer.

When I started killing deer with a 100 grain Broadhead it seemed to make Rifle caliber discussion's needless. However, I have shot no telling how many Whitetail does (herd management) with a 55 Nosler BT .224 (head and or neck) and they are very effective for that purpose.

To each his own they say!

And you don't even have to head or neck shoot em with a 223 to kill em very well. 50ish X bullet does wonders in the lungs. They claim even better through the shoulders so to speak.

Rost495 you may be right. You need the bullet not to pass through and transfer all the energy from the bullet to the deer. That is the way I load the lighter 270 bullets. You can get too light of bullet and or not enough energy so it is still a balance to the size of game.

you worry too much, the 223 is not capable of ever needing that much accuracy. if I plan on shooting beyond 300 yards even at a coyote I am using something more powerful, a 1 moa ar 15 will put your shots within 1.5" of aim at 300 yards. I like accurate guns as much as the next guy. I don't see the point of 10 shot groups either. If its not dead, killed, knocked over, shot up, or otherwise taken care of be it animal or target after 3 shots, there is something wrong.

The 223 is born of a great accurate cartridge the REM 222. It was a bench rest king in the 60s. I believe the load was 4198 with a 50 ish grain bullet. So the 223 should be capable of great accuracy.

CC-Usually you're harmless, but now you're just being annoying. Evidently Jeff did need that much accuracy. But then again, he wasn't shooting dirt clods either.

You are a better shot than I. 1 moa is 3 inches at 300. Then add the shooter error, IE wobble, no one holds perfectly still. Thta often doubles the group size. Then add it mis judging distance and worse yet wind.... you could be off way more than 1.5 inches.


But being that I"ve shot yotes the other side of 500 with the 223 and a few other AR15 based calibers, evidently it can be done.

10 shot groups are what we shot in rapid fire competition. You test for what you shoot, at the distance you shoot. Though I admit I only shot 10 shot groups in the end testing at 600 while we shot 20 shot groups almost exclusively. Figured 10 told me enough.

So you'll see not everyone just hunts with an AR. Or just plinks. Or just target shoots.

Not that any of it matters, if whatever you do keeps you happy thats all that matters.
And if you need or want larger rounds for whatever thats good too. I have from .224 through .338 at the moment in the safe plus 2 50 cal not counting black powder or pistol rounds...

CC, I am sorry that you live such a sheltered life. You have no respect for the little 223. I would suggest you do a little research or maybe get out to a range and see what's going on these days. There is some remarkable shooting and killing being done with .224 & .243 calibers, WAY North of 300 yards

I think Cummins isn't off base, just a different view really.

A lot of how well a round works these days is due to bullet advancement....

And if you are still shooting standard factory gun, factory trigger and 55s, 200 yards might seem to be it.

And there isn't a thing wrong with grabbing a 220 swift or 6mm for a long yote, but if what you have in the car is a do all AR loaded with something like 75s or such, and you have a scope that has dots or knobs... never seen a yote walk away from me at 300....

I'll even agree that 223 is not the ideal 300 yard deer round and especially not if I was trophy hunting, but I"ll also offer we watched another fellow competitor gal thats probably 60ish years old a few years back, whack a buck that was not small, and scored just under 170. 223 bolt gun. 69 SMK. HSM factory ammo. About 160 yards. SHot in the lungs, no shoulders. Bang flop. Granted it wasn't a 300 yard shot, but it was a fairly good sized deer that didn't move a step after the shot. And Ann has been heck on wheels shooting almost a half case of same ammo on pigs, javelina, deer etc... from close to over 300 yards since she also shot highpower with us, but she only shot out to 600, not to 1000 like some of us did.

Folks just have different views. And if I had a choice, Id probably not grab a 223 on a trophy hunt so to speak, but if offered a chance while not on a specific hunt, I'd not hesitate.

Heck if I still had a 22-250 or a swift, it would probably be the one on the porch for yotes since its flatter.... but don't have a fast twist one in the stable at the moment so the 223 that I'm SO familiar with, gets the nod and does just fine.

Kind of sorta what I meant by sheltered. I would not pick a .224 of any flavor for a trophy hunt but like I would not pass up a trophy if I had the right bullet and shot!

I have a customer who's Dad at one time had a huge exotic operation just South of Columbus. He hauled and sold exotics all over the country and most of his sales were down South in Mexico.

We were riding the pasture's one day and John stopped, rolled down his window and absolutely pole axed and Eland cow from about 180 yards with .224 TTH. Now this was a fairly large animal and I saw the outcome of a perfectly place shot to the heart lung region.

But, even after seeing that I surely would not take a .224 TTH to Africa on a Eland hunt. But it did again prove that a properly placed premium bullet, trumps all.

Funny they claim the TTH is a somewhat new round but the 6mm Rem necked to 22 has been around for a LONG time.

I remember shooting a buddies at 1000 long before the "TTH" came out.

Thats a factor of a good projectile really fast imparting shock to the animal. IMHO. And seems to work really well.

Jeff