http://www.midwayusa.com/product/13...roductFinding#pr-header-back-to-top-link


http://www.midwayusa.com/product/22...chking-hollow-point?cm_vc=ProductFinding


Reading the reviews at the bottom I was surprised to see mention of hunting with this load. The one fellow chrono'd the SSA and it was a tad slow.

I always grab my 06 when deer season rolls around, but I do find the effectiveness of the 77 quite interesting.
As I understand it, they tumble fast in flesh and break.... cuz they be stern heavy.

Lots of good deer killers out there in .224", that don't need to "tumble"..

Dunno about tumbling. Do know that 77s adn 75 bthps, not factory ammo, what is factory ammo anywayy....
has killed everything its been pointed at around here. So has 69 bthps.

I"m constantly amazed that folks are amazed that these types of bullets work.

Would not be my first pick, for game, but for varmints and 2 legged critters it would be about all I choose. And if its in the gun when a deer or such walks by... no big deal. Bang. Dead.

BTW the slow part.... folks get way to hung up on speed.....

Don't take much to kill deer..

I still need to put the 70 VLD's into the game.. After the 62 fusions and 55 TTSX's and.. and.. and..

Dude quit worrying about it, shoot the deer (any deer) in the front end with a good bullet (TSX, SwiftS2, fusion or any other good bullet). Dogzapper was once asked "how do you shoot a deer with a 223" his reply "just like you would with any other rifle". tumbling is BS.

People forget that what is best for the military isn't always the best for civilians. They have to follow the Hague Accords, you don't. There are several expanding bullets that are better.

Hague... GAFB. If you think that 77s dont' expand you got another thing coming... every last SMK I've shot will expand, well actually probably not the 240 30 cal in the 300/221 but never shot those....

77s meet it because they are ballistic HPs. But its this "what I heard" crap that goes around..

Sure there are other bullets, but most folks couldn't begin to believe how many deer etc.. are taken with ballistic HPs. And now Berger even calls em hunting bullets...

I've been shooting game with sierras, and with Bergers starting late 80s as the different ones came out...

Now if you are talking FMJ hague vs any other bullet I'll agree.

yep you don't want to get wrapped around the axle about what you done read on the internet vs. the actual shooting of game. My first 5.56 deer I did not even think of what was in my hands, just shot the thing and oddly enough it died.

I've had enough issues with standard deer rounds and standard deer bullets that I take nothing for granted.

Poke it where its supposed to be poked, and most of the time things will be thumbs up. Regardless of what you are driving, excepting FMJs...

Of course I have a buddy that has shot a wad of deer with 55 fmjs... I have no clue why, excepting guessing they come apart at the crimp, but there is always way more damage than I expect, and exit larger than entry and deer dead... doesn't make me want to try it though....

my favorite quote which I will repeat until I assume room temperature was last year when a bud shot the south end of a north bound deer with a 30-06 and I shot a little 7 point meat deer in the shoulder with a 75/223. "I don't get it we find blood all over the place when I shoot my deer and don't find the damn deer, we find no blood and yours is dead 30 yards away".

The Army preferred this load-bullet- and worked with Black Hills with several hundred thousand rounds expended by Black Hills to perfect it for what the Army wanted, a bullet that did not just zip right through and not open up. Black Hills balked at first at the crimping, at the "open tip" and other changes to their usual and customary way of producing ammunition.

That is what was happening with the M 855 steel penetrators in 5.56 on Iraqis and Afghan combatants. Doctors said it was like a 5.56 mm thick needle literally "needled through" without causing any life threatening damage to the enemy unless hit in specific areas. That left a whole lot of combatant tissue to be shot up and allow the combatant to continue the fight.

The troops grabbed this at every opportunity and used it to effect out to 600 yards and it opened up which is exactly what they wanted it to do. I understand tumbling had nothing to do with it's effectiveness-just straight on and impact and expand.

The Marines had their own version of it.

I have the research on it around here somewhere if anyone is interested in more details but I believe it acts about like your standard Speer, Hornady, Sierra, etc. cup and core lead bullets for deer.

Dang!

It was J Guthrie, the up and coming gun writer everybody in the industry seemed to be raving about who did the research on it.

He's a Georgian who died in his sleep at age 37 a few months ago shocking so many folks.

Yep, The Black Hills, MK 262 MOD 1 5.56 MM Special ball is military term but they finally just took a Sierra 77 grain Matchking and put a slight cannelure on it for the required military crimp and even had reports of lethal engagements out to 800 yards with it. The OTM stands for Open Tipped Match.

The Marines used a similar 62 grain SOST round (MK 318).

There was some mention of the Marine round impacting and the heavier base coming around causing the bullet to yaw, or tumble with their round.

Snipers in Special Forces said the Army round ya'll are discussing here was ..."the best, most accurate round the Army has ever issued." One ranked the Hor 75 TAP as the most lethal (my bullet), followed by the MK 318 and with the MK 262 riding herd at third for lethality. Anything was better than M855 in a CQB environment."

So, if it was effectively killing men at those distances, it certainly would be a capable killer of big game depending on the distances and weights, girth, etc..

I've been loading my own version of it for a few years now, with both the SMK and the Nosler Custom Competition.

At first Sierra balked at putting a cannelure on their bullet so Nosler obliged. Sierra saw the contract slipping away and relented. I believe the cannelure and crimp are part of the reason they work so well. I've only killed coyotes with them but they work well.

I tried some real MK262 and was surprised it was slower than advertised.

Slasher,

While MK262 MOD1 is good ammo, there is quite a bit of misinformation in your last two posts.

First, MK262 was an adaption from the load that BH used for the service rifle ammo they were making. It had nothing to do with the "army wanting a bullet that did not just zip right through and not open up". It was meant the ammo that complimented the SPR/MK12.

Second, no shoulder fired small arm causes "life threatening damage to the enemy unless hit in specific areas". It doesn't matter whether it is 5.56, 7.62, 300WM, etc. if you do not hit specific areas, people don't die. This is where the "stopping power", "knockdown power", and other such nonsense comes from.

Amazing that we understand that whether we shoot a deer with a 7mm mag or a 223 we MUST hit vitals to achieve a good result, however when it comes to humans we think as long as its a 7.62 we can hit them anywhere..... That ain't the way the cookie crumbles.


Third, 77gr SMK's rarely "expand" as we think of it. They almost always travel a certain distance in tissue, yaw 90 degrees and tumble. If velocity is high enough they will break at the canulure. They in no way- "act about like your standard Speer, Hornady, Sierra, etc. cup and core lead bullets".


Fourth, MK 318 SOST performs completely different than MK262 or Greentip. It a barrier blind load and is not the Marines version of MK262. Every branch of the service uses/used MK262. Only the Marines in Afghanistan and certain SOF organizations use MK318.

Yes, the whole rational for the SPR's was the fact than neither the Colt M4 barrels or the M855 greentip were capable of 400m+ accuracy. The ammo is only required to meet 3.5MOA. IME, even greentip will break at the cannelure and fragment even out of an M4 from about 130 or so yards and in.

interesting so much ' research" was done.

We loaded 75/77 until it was fairly fast and accurate. And it worked on paper and on game.

Nuff said.

Of course it has to meet mil spec, but thats not really research, thats just doing it.

Sometimes folks make things to complicated.

It wasn't "research" so much as just developing a load and a rifle that was both combat reliable and accurate. Crane and PRI did a good job of it, by all accounts.

My information came straight from Black Hills president Jeff Hoffman, their history with the round, much of which I left out that is so freaking interesting such as rounds heating up and failing to extract due to velocity increases-back it down-
the open tip to place the weight toward the rear to make it more stable in flight and accurate; thus not in theory to cause expansion in the usual manner upon impact and violate the Hague Convention-although that is exactly what it ultimately does.

I think we are just looking at it practically- me and Guthrie as hunters would-and while your information is accurate to a point, it misses entirely the point of the projectile's purpose and it's philosophy of use for the units it was planned for-long range accuracy in specific weapons and then the general populace saw how superior it was to the projectiles they were using and they absconded with it whenever they could.

To kill men... I personally would have a list of dozens of projectiles to use on deer sized game before I would choose this one. That is only because I hunt with .284 and up.

I am looking at the ballistic gelatin and Guthrie is correct.

Maybe it's semantics. J Guthrie is too respected, in addition to being too skilled of an interviewer to have garnered information that is not correct.

Yeah, same chit we do as reloaders every single day we take something like that on.

The bullet has been around for a LONG time, and many of us have been driving it to sub moa rapid fire accuracy out to 600 with irons for many years...

None of this is the flippin rocket science folks make it out to be sometimes.

Got any links to pictures?
A couple of years ago Steelhead posted a picture of an exit wound on a blacktail made by a 64 grain winchester power point. Massive damage. Made a total believer out of me for the 64 grain pp.

I sure would like to see a any pics anybody has on the 77smk's; either the recovered bullet or the exit wounds.

I'm not much on pictures of dead animals or wounds unless I'm out to prove a point, hence I don''t have such.

But I can tell you that it was always caliber in and seemingly about 3 times that exit wound wise.

I don't shoot bones unless its head, so thats about all I can ask for.

Huge exit holes tell me the bullet is too frangible for my tastes and may fail if encountering hard/big bones or long angling shots.

Of course some prefer huge holes and thats their choice.

The SPR project was a lot more than just "handloading". It gave us the first AR with a free floated picatinny rail (Colt's M4 still doesn't have one today). This allowed a quick-detach bipod, and more importantly, it allowed the use of clip-on night vision. I never saw quality folding BUIS's before that either.

I think there are other hunting bullets I would use.

Or an article in a magazine.





The 77gr SMK was in use loooong before the military ever thought to use it. No consideration was ever given to it's terminal ballistics. The only modification from the original MK 262, and MK 262 MOD 1, is the addition of a canulure. That was added to satisfy a military requirement for auto weapons.







I'm quite aware of "it's philosophy of use" as I've been issued a metric [bleep] load of it.







The fact that ALL match kings at times exhibit nearly ideal terminal performance, does not negate the reality that most often they penetrate 3-4 inches, tumble, and if velocity is high enough, fragment. I would love to see the gel shots you're looking at. Please post them.

I have seen truckloads of Whitetail deer and pigs killed with 55 grain BT from a standard .223. With a 62 grain TTSX there is not much here in North America that I would not shoot given the opportunity.

It's been said many times - "Headstamps mean little when it comes to killing"

where did bipods and float tubes originate from? Damn sure not the SPR project, competitive shooters.

The ideas start somewhere, and then are beefed up by military.

I know. Thats where they started using 90 jlk data for the AMU at Benning, guess who gave them the leftover ammo from Perry.

The ammo part of this, was simply copy something thats been proven, see if we can make it work and go from there. Nothing that hasn't been done for years in private and military sectors..

I have a box of the over pressure 77 stuff from Black hills somewhere stashed so I know they had issues, but all they were doing is making it work in all weapons platforms across the board.
EXACTLY what we do in figuring out NTIT rattle battle team ammo. ... 77s that work across the board.

They have more things to take into account, but in the end, it was simply tweaking what had already been in use.

Formidilosus,

I'm not sure what the issue is or was still.

I do not have equipment working to post it but I'd love to mail you the article and that test if you will P M me your address.

J Guthrie was so highly respected you could quote his conversations and feel they were to them personally as far as the soundness of the statements. Obviously anyone could get his articles to check that. He was that kind of guy.

Best

Take a knee and rost95,

I'm curious as to who or what Crane and PRI are all about if you don't mind obliging,

Thanks,

Slasher- I actually find histories and this goes back many years on this bullet, extremely interesting, no different than my interest in paper patching and the experiments on the bullets from the 1800's, lots and lots with patches to get it right to compete at a high level of accuracy at insane ranges, too.
Ross Seyfried Good ol' Ross knew....

Mahatma Gandhi and Bobby Kennedy and I were having dinner many years ago and they both commented on this bullet...

Thanks,


Bullets from different centuries. That actually needed explaining as opposed to....

Anybody but Bobby Kennedy.

Gandhi was actually a strong proponent of citizens having guns. Just too many Brits to take on at the time.

Did you just start talking to yourself?

This is getting interesting.

Who knew BH took a SMK that had been around for years and added weight to the back so it was more stable and opened up just right so as to not violate the Hauge treaty.

Unbelievable!

TWR,

That is straight from the article from J Guthrie, the remark about the Hague Convention. Actually, the open tip removed weight making the rear heavier. He says, " the hollow cavity is not there to induce expansion; it's there to put the majority of weight towards the projectile's rear so that it is more stable in flight and increase accuracy."

"....it is not designed to expand and cause undue suffering." He notes that as "that critical phrase in the Hague Convention regarding ammunition."

He is not saying Sierra designed that years in advance knowing this would be an issue. He does note this though, perhaps as an afterthought that it could be a positive in light of any possible criticism.

Gary

I never heard of J Guthrie but the only change Sierra made to their bullet was to add a small cannelure only after Nosler almost stole the show.

And the ballistic gelatin photos I've seen show the bullet in pieces. They blow a heck of a hole in a coyote and I've yet to see one mushroom, nor have I recovered one in one piece.

Bluedreaux,

Just having fun.

I posted to Dr. Howell after he fell recently to keep a stiff upper chin instead of lip to see if would be caught and forum member ironbender caught it, and posted it back to me.


Then he says out of the blue , "Maxilla! Good ol' Maxilla!!! or something like that. I tried to find anything on that and realized he was making a private joke to himself, so since then I've done it a couple of times to see if anyone noticed weird inserts and poster jimmyp did.

But paper patching bullets to drastically improve accuracy is an important part of ballistics history. It's very detailed as to how it is to be done correctly to achieve unreal accuracy that many years ago.

Posters from just 10 years ago who read Wolfe publications Rifle and Handloader would have known exactly and immediately who Ross Seyfried is and would demonstrate they have their history down as to riflery.

TWR,

J Guthrie had made a big name for himself in a short time period amongst magazine writers. Going to be like the next Jack O'Connor as to popularity or Mr. O'Connor's nemesis who loved the big calibers. Do you know him? The inventor of many of our famous handgun cartridges.

I know some here are not big on the Mule Deers of the world but I am as they are the people I learned from.

Mr. Guthrie credits the Sierra with some yaw.

Someone has to take the technical side of all this and put it in layman's terms and Mr. Guthrie was good at that except he went further and made the sometimes mundane extremely entertaining.

I don't know bout all this. But I can shoot.

Yes Jeff, most of us, who didn't just fall off the turnip truck are well aware of that. Many of us are also well aware of the fact that civilians, like Glenn Zediker and company, are the ones who figured out how to make the AR dominate Hi-Power.

The fact still remains that Henry Ford didn't invent the automobile....

Mr. Bin could lock this discussion down permanently and that would be fine by me.

this conversation is mild.

Yes Jeff, most of us, who didn't just fall off the turnip truck are well aware of that. Many of us are also well aware of the fact that civilians, like Glenn Zediker and company, are the ones who figured out how to make the AR dominate Hi-Power.

The fact still remains that Henry Ford didn't invent the automobile.... [/quote]

Zedicker, with his pathetic abuse of the English language, only mostly reported on what was going on, on the competitive line... There are many others out there, and they don't include me much, that actually started the AR off into the highpower game and make it a winner.....

Authors usually are like that though, they are a different breed of folks compared to those that get it done. And they have to be.

I can read about anyone but Glenn,(or any of the fulton armory kuleck stufff) I have 2 of his books and have never made it to the end of either one, since he has a degree in English that according to him, allows him to butcher the language much like stick. And think its cool.

Henry Ford did a great job with the assembly line. And managing a business.

But its common for the folks that do the grunt work, to never get the credit. I listened to an after action report on Saturday here.... it certainly applied some credit to a person, but also added a few that were not involved until they were shown the issue...

Not than any of this matters. The 77 has not changed other than cannelure and the military finally came up with a load that worked for them, as the civilians had done years before.

Robert White,

You asked for links to pictures.

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#OVERPENETRATION

This is from AR15.com.

Go straight to that or click on AR15 the top of their home page and AR 15 Ammo Forum FAQ's and that will take you to Ballistic Gelatin under choices for Defense.

All the photos you want of the 77 are included along with other cartridges' ballistic test photos.

Sorry. I forgot your request in the queries about the limited excerpts of Mr. Guthrie's article.

I trust that gives you the info you requested and more in fact. I's a long article so just keep scrolling as the info is scattered amongst pistol

tests, also. They are not the ballistic gelatin tests I have , but they should suffice.

Best