The orginal Grendel now called the Grendel II was first designed in 2003 by Arne Brennan and Bill Alexander and announced at Shot Show in January 2004 by Alexander Arms. It is the OG of the Grendel variants. As in the Original Grendel. The Grendel II which is the real Grendel and original chamber shoots a wide variety of bullets with greater velocity than the newer SAAMI Grendel. The reason it gets better velocity is easy to understand it has a longer throat which allows bullets to be loaded longer in the case allowing more room in the case. The SAAMI Grendel with the compound throat forces bullets to deep in the case taking up room needed for powder. After the 6.5 Grendel was on the market Alexander Arms changed the throat to a compound throat that they borrowed from Lother Walter and did not design it as commonly reported.

AA changed to the compound throat because it seemed to shoot the 123gr lapua and 108 Lapua Scenars with more accuracy than the original throat when they assumed a mag length of 2.26in. Current mag length is 2.29 to 2.305in depending on the mag. It was an engineering trade off that sacrificed performance on the majority of hunting bullets which have a shorter nose than the scenars. The shorter nosed hunting bullets were then forced to deep in the case with the new compound throat which makes the the case give up 100 to 200fps depending on the bullet. The assumed main function of the rifle was target range time so getting accuracy from the Scenars was determined to be more important that velocity of hunting ammo. A incomplete list of bullets that have sacrificed potential velocity are the following.

Nosler 100gr Ballistic Tip Spitzer
Hornady 120gr Amax
Sierra Pro-Hunter 120gr Spitzer
Nosler 120gr Ballistic Tip Spitzer
Speer Hot-Cor 120gr Spitzer
Remington Core-Lokt 120gr Pointed soft point
Swift A frame bonded 120gr Semi Spitzer
Barnes 120gr TTSX
Nosler Partition 125gr Spizer
Hornady Interlock 129gr Spire Point
Nosler Accubond 130gr Spitzer
Sierra GameKing 130gr Hollow Point
140gr Nosler Partition Spitzer
140gr Nosler Ballistic Tip Spizer

The original Grendel now called the Grendel II is available again this year by several vendors. I took a AR Stoner Grendel II to the range last week and worked up a load with 120gr Noslers. I found an accuracy node at 31.6gr of LEVER with a COAL of 2.9in with a velocity of 2780fps with an ES of 24. That's about 200fps faster than the current SAAMI chamber that needs the Nosler buried down to somewhere around 2.23 to 2.24 depending on the barrel. I'll be exploring that load again this Saturday to see how tight i can get the groups. Its already sub MOA but would like to get some 1/2in groups.

My 24in Grendel II barrel sends out 123gr factory SST out at 2624fps and was already sub MOA during my barrel break in last weekend.

Velocities measured with LEVERevolution and the 120gr Nosler BT loaded to 2.29in.

31gr
2727fps
2695fps
2673fps
2698fps
2712fps
Average 2701fps

31.3gr
2716fps
2778fps
2741fps
2741fps
err
Average 2744fps

31.6gr
2796fps
2772fps
2779fps
2772fps
2780fps
Average 2779.8fps

31.9gr
ERR
ERR
ERR
ERR
2773
(wind was blowing the chrony)

32.2gr
2803fps
2798fps
2798fps
2761fps
2814fps
Average 2794.8fps


Brass from 31.6gr of LEVR.

Thought you were fixing to trot out a .380ACP with blind magwell that gets charged with stripper clips.

You are dating yourself sherp.

Old as dirt and twice as crusty.

Well I think that was the original Grendel. Seems like that was first and then then the next 2 I can recall were the detachable box mag .380 and /or the P-30, predecessors to the P-11 and PMR-30.

where you get mags that accept 2.92 or so OAL ?

Crap, another convoluted thornbush tarpot mess of confusion. Just when I was looking hard at the Grendel. Over on the Grendel forums their administrator never would update my request and allow me to post. I guess they don't need new blood in the world of all things Grendel.

Screw it. I have enough complications in my little world of blue collar muddle and fumble

so cal, I have to ask what was the purpose of your post. I think many of us already know if you load the grendel up to in excess of 60k psi you can get ALOT more speed out of it. Bolt failures have been reported when you try to do this. I am as much a hotrodder as the next guy but know that is a risk your taking.

the grendel II was created because liberty/saturn barrels used the wrong reamer and cut their barrels throats too short, instead of saying YES we screwed up, their solution was lets offer a new chamber with a longer throat that will make sure and cleanup the chambers of all the messed up barrels. worse yet liberty barrels said lets also charge the people shipping to and from to fix our mistake. The problem was the throats they had were too short to chamber even factory ammo. They blamed everyone but themselves but never could explain why their barrels could not chamber factory ammo other than to say its a saami spec chamber.

lastly I look at your chrono data from 31.3-31.6 I am seeing a pressure spike I would be concerned about that much increase in speed with that little extra powder charge.

further, I own a grendel and frankly I am sick of the whole fiasco, I can't get the right bullets for it, and yes to do its thing you need the right bullets for it. I haven't looked in the last couple months but I don't think I can even get factory ammo for it. with the advent of the gen 2 dpms soon my grendel will be for sale because with the weight savings on the new dpms I don't see the point of the grendel.

Good post! I am picking up my DPMS Gen II hunter this Friday. If it don't rain I will have a brief report on Monday.

jimmy p, dude we are anxious for a full report on that, that is the gun I want.

That is the way my mind is bending too.

The mag's measurements are ASC at 2.289-2.293in or so, C Products at 2.3in and PRI Mags are at 2.305in. I'm using a C products mag which has a nice coating but with a ASC follower. I find the C products follower is not as good quality as the ASC but the C Products mag has a better coating. So i combined the two. ASC sells followers and springs separately so makes it asy to combine with C products shells. I can't find my PRI mag that i have an ASC follower installed in grr!!



First the purpose of this post is to correct bad information out there such as you while well meaning i'm sure did post.

Second when you load longer leaving more room in the case you can achieve higher velocities without higher pressure. Its like having a larger piece of brass with more room for powder. It does not mean pressure is increased thats a common myth. Read more about it here. LEVER gives 150fps better velocities with the right conditions like what is present in the Grendel II loaded to true mag length.



Here is SAAMI velocities with the 120gr Nosler to compare to my Grendel II velocities. The GII is 200fps faster on some loads and isn't using a bunch more powder to achieve the velocity.
Grendel II with LEVER.
31.6gr
2796fps
2772fps
2779fps
2772fps
2780fps
Average 2779.8fps





No the Grendel II was created by Bill Alexander and Arne Brennan in 2003 and announced at Shot Show in January 2004. Steve Satern had nothing to do with its design in any way at all. He just ordered a different Grendel reamer because he was tired of the newer compound throat causing problems so PTG sent him the original design that does not have the bullet getting stuck issue that is a common problem with the compound throat.

PTG named the original throat the Grendel II and Steve used that name. Be careful of the garbage passed on the Grendel forum its not very accurate sometimes. Some of the "experts" talk out there a$$ a little to much. In this post Arne Brennan the co designer of the Grendel confirms that the Grendel II is simply the original Grendel. In other words the Steve Satern silly conspiracy story is just false.


Here's a list of threads with various barrels with rounds getting stuck in the compound throat. The Grendel II does not have this issue nor does the 264LBC that both have a .120in throat. Only the compound throat has the issue with factory loads getting stuck. As you can see from the links below the problem goes much farther than what Satern had and has now fixed with the Grendel II. The Grendel II and the 264 LBC both use the same length throat with the neck size being a little different. They also both use the proven parallel throat design used by the 6.5 Creedmore, 6.5 lapua, 260 Remington, 6.5 Win Mag etc. It's a proven design that is pretty much standard only the 6.5 Grendel (SAAMI) uses the compound throat which causes problems.

Alexander Arms upper won't chamber factory ammo.
https://www.okshooters.com/showthre...endel-advice-Not-fully-chambering-rounds

A guy with an Alexander Arms upper getting rounds stuck and when extracting the rounds stay in the chamber and its spills gun powder in the upper.
http://mobile.texags.com/Forums/34/Topics/2172813

A guy with an Alexander Arms upper getting rounds stuck
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5813083/1

A Guy with a factory Alexander Arms upper and Amax was having issues with factory rounds getting stuck.
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-7003.html

A press reviewer during a shot with a JT upper got a AA factory 120gr TSX stuck during the review.
http://www.jprifles.com/document_pdfs/GANG%20of%2065%20GRENDELS%20_129.pdf



Vmax loaded to specs gets stuck
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=399702

Factory Vmax stuck in 6.5 Grendel with compound throat.
http://forum.snipershide.com/sniper-hide-gunsmithing/71681-6-5-grendel-extraction-issues.html

Factory Amax won't chamber in Satern barrel
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=66&t=558392

Another Alexander Arms upper getting factory Alexander Arms 120gr TTSX round stuck.
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/show...er-Arms-grendel...-Proble-out-of-the-box

A guy with a Mcgowen barrel and factory Amax and SST ammo getting stuck. He says " I am using factory grade Hornady A-max or SST 123 gr. ammo. No reloads at all."
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-6575.html

Unknown barrel make and 100gr Amax getting stuck.
http://forum.snipershide.com/sniper...uck-chamber-please-help.html#post2977927



The increase in velocity is actually lower from 31.3 to 31.6 that it was from 31 to 31.3 so no thats not a velocity spike. An increase in velocity of 40fps with a .3gr increase is completely normal. Hope I've cleared some things up for you.

Here's a chamber drawing of the Grendel II dated 2008 but is actually the original Grendel from 2003 and announced at shot show but at the time simply was called the 6.5 Grendel. The compound throat was added years later and has caused all the rounds getting stuck issues in may different barrels but from what i found online the "stuck bullet" syndrome is mostly centered around Alexander Arms but effected Satern as well.

Also its also a myth that the Grendel bolt made with 9310 steel as all Grendel II come with is rated to 53K. The Grendel bolts made of 9310 steel are not rated and I've talked to a couple machinists that make Grendel bolts and they are confident they can do 60K without issues. The MILSPEC 5.56 bolt made with 158 carpenter steel is rated to 53K but Grendel bolts have never been rated. That 53k "rating" gets thrown around but no study to rate the bolt has ever been done.

"SAAMI COAL Limits Ballistic Performance
It is a fact that the ballistic performance of modern ammunition is directly limited by the SAAMI COAL standards that are currently in place and that rifle manufacturers build to. Even when a shooter understands the implications of cartridge case volume and has a chamber that allows them to load the rounds out long, the rifle itself (having been built to feed SAAMI length cartridges) won�t allow the shooter to do so.
This fact is one reason for the popularity of custom rifle builders who understand the importance of feeding longer than SAAMI length rounds and building rifles with long enough actions and magazines to cycle the rounds. The first commercial rifle manufacturers who figure this out and start building rifles capable of feeding longer rounds will lead the way into modern times. There have been many improvements to several key components of modern rifle ammunition, specifically bullets and powder. It�s unfortunate that many rifle makers continue to adhere to the antiquated SAAMI limitations that were put in place so long ago when components were so different, standards which limit the performance of modern potential."



http://www.bergerbullets.com/effect...and-cartridge-base-to-ogive-cbto-part-1/

The Nosler 120gr BT has a max COAL of 2.305in in my Grendel II and i loaded to 2.29in so not jamming the lands to get better velocities.



here are the max COAL I measured for the chamber.

95gr Hornady Vmax COAL= 2.275
100gr Nosler Partition COAL=2.266
100gr Nosler BT COAL= 2.306
120gr Hornady Amax COAL= 2.257
120gr Nosler BT COAL= 2.307
120gr Barnes TTSX COAL=2.330
120gr Barnes TSX COAL=2.295
123gr Hornady SST COAL=2.342
123gr Nosler CC COAL=2.285
129gr SP Interlock COAL=2.275
129gr Hornady SST COAL=2.360
140 Nosler BT COAL= 2.32
140gr Nosler Partition COAL=2.303

I and many others fall into the "who cares" camp. The chitier the used car the harder the sell.

Mr SoCalPigHunter;

This posting that you have provided is a great help to me and I want to thank you. I was really truly starting to research the Grendel and then have one built and you have saved me from a huge mistake.

Who knows? If the new light weight DPMS catches on over the course of the next year DPMS might offer a model chambered for the 260.

Looks like you've done a lot of work and are getting it to work for you the best you can.

Thats what I"m used to doing for years now.

Glad its working for you.

Its not as complicated as it seems but some folks feel that way.

Good info on the mags. I only have GI mags. Never had much of any other and have so many never have looked for others.

Nice to know some are longer allowances on ammo.

Heck, I was afraid we were going to be visited by a troll which once oppressed the Geats.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHGAHAHA

The Grendel case has enough azz for a 243 projectile, and no more. Its a bridge too far, IMO. I would like to see the HAGAR catch on, but it very well may not.

I'd meet you on the 600 yard line with a grendel and you a hagar any day.

I doubt there would be any major difference in the results.

Having several throat options is normal for popular calibers. Think 5.56, 223 REM and 223 Wylde. The 308 has 5 throat variants I've found that all shoot 308 Win and are labeled 308 Win. Most shooters don't know the difference. They buy a box of ammo and shoot it. They don't know what throat the rifle has. Its really not that confusing really. The Grendel II shoots factory Grendel Ammo but has a .120in throat and has the same size neck .300. With factory ammo it fixes the occasional but problematic issue of factory ammo getting stuck and allows the hand loader to get better velocities. If you get a Grendel II or 264 LBC barrel you'll be fine. You can get a Grendel II from

Underground Tactical
Midwayusa
Brownells (they recently chaged to the Grendel II)
Maxim Firearms
Satern barrels

You can get a 264 LBC from Black Hole Weaponary or Les Baers. Precision Arms has kept the compound throat but lengthened it to avoid the stuck bullet issue so far as i know they are "stuck bullet syndrome" free. Lilja has a reamer for the Grendel that has a .120in throat and a .296 neck but you have to ask for it otherwise you'll get a much shorter compound throat. They initially went with there own custom throat but they got some pressure from the 65Grendel.com cult and backed down and started using the shorter compound throat. I would recommend using there original custom throat that is very very close to the 264 LBC and Grendel II.



My handload with the 120gr Gr Nosler BT i developed last weekend is 110fps shy of 260 Remington velocities for the same barrel length and bullet. Most AR-10 260 Remington's are a 18 or 20in which means that a Grendel II in a 22 or 24in barrel can get the same performance. Thats pretty good and much cheaper than building a full AR-10. A factory 120gr Nosler BT out of a 24in barrel is going at 2890fps. Sure there are faster loads with the same bullet and with hand loads you get get much better just trying to make the point that a Grendel II can get closer than you may think to those 260 Remington velocities. My reload i worked up last Saturday out of a 24in barrel for 120gr Nosler BT is going 2780fps. You can't get 2780fps from a SAAMI Grendel without compressing the powder and spiking pressures but with the Grendel II you can load longer and get naturally higher velocities.

Do you still have to pay a royalty to Bill in order to sell it? A 62 grain TSX or 75 grain Swift S2 does all I want to do with that platform.

Those that think grendel IE 6.5 ppc has no place are only hunters, and not competitors.

The 6.5 does very well on the target range. And in hunting though there in hunting you have varying opinions about whats required for what.

but for most barrels I wouldn't buy factory anyway, as I want to spec my chamber, twist, gas port size etc...

BTW compressing powder doesn't mean spikes in pressure, pressure spikes can come from many things but simply compressing powder is not the cause.

DPMS 10 rounds, 3.5-10 x 50, Lt-104. Out of the box much nicer trigger, I like the stock, did not think I would like it..



MP10 20 rounds

No Alexander Arms has nothing to do with the Grendel II other than being one of the team members that initially designing it. They don't sell them or have any licencing or copyrights on the design. If you want to sell it just order a bunch from Satern and sell them. I'm waiting on a 45 barrel group buy we did several months back for 20 and 22in fully fluted and teflon coated Grendel II barrels.

I'll be heading out very early AM before church this Sunday to the desert to get a couple hours load testing. The temp should be in the low 80's before 9am. I hoping to get to the spot by 0630 and be headed back by 830 to make second service. I'll post up my results on the Grendel II reloading project thread on www.msrhunt.com and link to it here. The plan is to try and find an accuracy node with LEVER and 123gr SST. I'll be be looking around 31.2 to 31.8gr of LEVER in .1gr increments. I'm going to try a 2.271in COAL. Then more testing Nosler 120gr with the 31.6gr load. I'm going to shoot a 5 shot string at 2.29in and another at 2.28in. I'm getting low on those. I'll also be searching for an accuracy node for Hornady 129gr SP Interlock in the 30 to 30.6gr range with a COAL of 2.25in. I also would like to try the 130gr scirocco and 140gr Nosler Partition. We'll see if i have enough time and i'll need to do a latter test becasue i have no idea where a accuracy node should be and what the high load is.

COOL!

Show us a picture of those set screws that hold in the feed ramps...

If you don't mind saying... how much$$$$???

How long is the barrel on the hunter?

Just got back from a 2 hour round trip to the desert. At 0600 perfect temp of 78 but to windy. The targets wouldn't even stay taped to the plywood. I called it and we headed home. Didn't even fire a shot.