This challenge is designed to test your skills as well as your equipment. I will keep up with the rankings as we go along. Please read and follow the rules or your entry may not count.

The Rules:
ALL targets must be shot from 100 yards.
20 rounds will be scored, flyers included.
The rifle can be shot from any position as long as the shooter is supporting the rifle. Bipods, slings, and rear bags are ok to use. NO bench rest, lead sleds, or machine rest may be used.
All 20 rounds must be fired on the same day, from the same rifle.
Iron Sights will fire two 10 shot groups at the reduced 600 yard NRA targets.
Scoped rifles will fire two 10 shot groups at the target listed below (different targets are ok, just make sure both groups are on the same piece of paper)
Iron sighted rifles and scoped rifles will be ranked separately.


Please have your post in this Order:

1) Picture of rifle and setup.
2) Picture of 100 yard range.
3) Picture of target (optics) or targets (irons) with 20 rounds through them. (place calipers or ruler laying over one group for reference)
4) Description of rifle and ammo used.
5) For optics, list your group sizes and the average. For Iron sights, please list the group size and score.


Optics Target:
Scoped Rifle Target

Iron Sights Target:
NRA MR-31

Please sign each target with your 24HC name and date.

Thanks.

Reserved for rankings

Reserved for rankings

Oops.

I'd like to give this a try, but does the rule above say you can't shoot off a bench, or just not use a mechanical front rest off a bench?
Bipods, and rear bags in Prone only ?

Hope I'm not sounding stupid here L O L..

Thanks,
Bill

Shooting from a bench is fine as long as you are using a bipod, sandbags, sling, shooting off a pack, etc.... Just no mechanical rest or heavy front rest that sits on the bench.

Go ahead and shoot it, you have a good chance at coming in first place.

I guess I can claim first place for the time being, even with these sorry attempts.

Scoped rifle entry:





Rifle: AR-15 with a 18" Douglas SPR barrel chambered by CLE, Nightforce 2.5-10 scope.

Ammo: LC-09 brass, CCI BR-4 primers, 69gr Sierra MK, 24.5gr. of RL-15, 2.255" COAL

Group sizes: 1.029 MOA + 1.463 MOA / 2 = 1.246 MOA


Iron sighted rifle entry:




Rifle: AR-15 A4 with BCM 20" gov't profile chrome lined barrel 1/7 twist, all standard AR parts.

Ammo: LC-09 brass, CCI BR-4 primers, 69gr Sierra MK, 24.5gr. of RL-15, 2.255" COAL

Score: 88 + 79 = 167-0x

Groups: 3.580 MOA + 3.060 MOA = 3.320 MOA

Good start!

Whats the stuff on the can? IE fabric? Whats its purpose? Cosmetic or am I about to learn something?

Jeff

Prepare to learn.

It's a Rifles Only MAD (mirage and heat cover)It has a heat shield on the inside and cordura outside. Basically, puts a damper on the heat coming off the can to keep it out of your scope and also lets you handle it when it would otherwise burn you.

So you're wanting 2 targets 10 rds each?

Correct. That along with the pictures and details of the rifle and ammo.

Headed to Bozeman until Thursday. If I catch my ride back to Hotlanta will try Friday evening or Sunday afternoon. Can I shoot a .308? Ruger SR762.

Yes, I'm planning on shooting my .308 sometime this week so it will be good to have some competition.

Can we alter the targets any? My 1-6 Leupold's thick reticle covers the target and just won't allow for a decent aiming point.

The iron target would work better for both my 1-6 and my acog.

Yes, any target is fine. If you can, just try and get both on the same piece of paper for scoped rifles.

To keep it as similar as possible, this is what will shoot, if no objections.

Just enlarge it until it fits the crosshairs, which is what it looks like you did!

Man y'all are making me itchy...few more long weekends and I'll be looking for the copier at work!

Now that I think of it, I swear I had 100 yard targets in my hands many years ago.. who might know where they might be though, that might have easily been 20 years ago... ugh.

TWR, that looks fine. As stated in the rules, different targets are ok as long as they are on one piece of paper. Group size is what counts, picking the right target will make a difference. I posted a benchrest target as its what I usually use for load development but its not ideal for all optics and definitely not ions.

I have been training for my half marathon and finally ran it last weekend. All the GU packets full of caffeine and energy have me twitching like I have Parkinson's. I tried Saturday but just couldn't shoot what I couldn't see. Started to shoot irons but the range filled up fast and I spent my time catching up rather than shooting.

It's windy today but we have rain forecast for the next 7 days so it's now or never.

I hear ya, I was wiping sweat out of my eyes and trying to keep from getting burned on my plastic shooting mat when I shot my entry above. Not my best but good enough for first place. Had to start somewhere, might as well set the bar low.

TWR, congrats on the half! Wish I could get back to running. I really liked it, but never ran more than a few miles a day. Mentally I'd like to try a half at some point, but about every time I get decent training going in running we get a bunch of fire/ems pages and my program goes right out the window again...

Wife did a half ironman... wanted to do a full, but the half finish, 3 minutes short of the cutoff in her early 40s cured her of that desire and went back to shorter ones... olympics I think they were and then duathlons for me since I swim to the bottom faster than a brick...

Thanks, I picked this up kinda late in life but even at 230 lbs I enjoy it. Early morning and late night runs are what it took for me. My daughter decided to run after me and this was our goal.

Sorry for the hijack.

The range
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The gun
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The target
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A flyer in each group that was my fault but it is what it is.
This was shot with the Noveske light weight barrel, I loaded a 20 round mag and shot 10 on each target. No cooling in between just shot as soon as the crosshairs settled down. The first flyer on the left target was shot 8, I thought I was doing better on the second but after the second flyer it all went South due to me, not the barrel heating up or the wind or any other excuse. Don't judge Noveske for my shooting.

I've done much worse. Flyers can really screw you up mentally also. Judging by the first group, it looks like the rifle wants to shoot.

FWIW, I could not get TAC and 77gr Noslers to work together. Never did get better than 1 MOA.


Current Rankings:

Optics:
1) wareagle700: 1.246 MOA
2) TWR: 2.308 MOA

Iron Sights:
1) wareagle700: 167-0x (3.320 MOA)

SMK's are more accurate but NCC's kill better which is more important to me. TAC got me great velocity but I've wanted to try RL15, use it in everything else.

I might have to give this a whirl. I've only shot my AR at paper a couple times, but it quickly showed that it could really put 3 shots in a tight, usually sub-moa group. 10 shots twice is gonna hurt my ego about that rifle, I'm afraid.

I don't have a clue what to try for ammo. I've never loaded anything specific for it, but have a bunch of ball ammo in 2-3 different brands I could try.

We'll see if time allows it.

I've got a more suitable target AR but shooting from a bipod has never been my favorite way of shooting. I need to do it again. Challenging one's own ability, is the only way to get better.

Bipods take some getting used to to produce accuracy, if the feet are non slip. Forward tension on the stock IIRC, and must be very repeatable tension.

I"m getting the itch to dig the sling and jacket back out. Maybe I'll cheat and try to shred the range and get away with it this weekend somehow or another...

RE the ammo question... federal gold medal match in 69s is never shabby.
HSM with 69s is an accuracy load, basically 25 varget in LC case and primer, but BR4 is better primer than what HSM used to use.. all at 2.250... if none of those shoot there is generally a gun issue.

Hey, at least I got the range shredded Friday evening! That was a good start to the weekend. Then came work at inlaws, fire calls, EMS calls, and this morning loosing a mother to a CPR call on Mothers Day...

I have to put a fence up sometime this weekend around the impact berm anyway, so I'm thinking, ain't gonna get around to shooting yet... ugh...

Need to go look for targets though mabye...

We are expecting more rain this week, had over 10" since last week. When it quits, I'm gonna shoot some more, maybe the wind will be below 15-20 next time.

Wish it would rain here. We could use some. They have told us since last week,we could get 10 inches by today... haven't had a drop yet... go figure. Now its all this week, and we could get 10...

We're getting rain every day Jeff. Hopefully it'll push over to you.

Finally got half an inch or so this morning, right about the time we had a wreck call to go to. Lucky no pin ins... but had some issues getting a gal onto a backboard and out of the back seat, deaf to top it all off and no one told me that when I got there... Don't think anything serious but had some serious back pain so you never know.

You can tell it rained though... enough of the other departments got wreck pages during the same storm!

Think I"ll drip my other tree tonight too... that way it'll rain some more. LOL.

Jeff

Rain?

We had 5 inches of snow Saturday night / Sunday morning.

Snow wouldn't hurt my feelings.... I've been in 2 house fires lately, and its getting that time of the year that if we go to a wreck with a pin in, I"m dripping wet UNDER my gear, much less outside...

Only.... 5 more months of this... except 4 of those 5 could be flat miserable.

Have friends in AK. Spencer married a gal from there, its been colder down here around Thanksgiving a few times than it was in ANC. She wants heat. And sun. So they are coming around 4 July this year...

I'll let you know how much she likes heat when they are done. LOL. At least I'll be able to get them bowfishing this trip!

Bad thing about snow is it means slick roads, and it brings up the accident count around here... especially for the kalifornian and Texas drivers.

Colt Match Target
M4 Carbine
MT6400C

Leupold Compact 2-7 power (set on 7 power)

Timney Skeletonized trigger.

Ammo: Sierra 60gr.HP/26.0 gr. Varget

Results..

Target #1 = 1.273"
Target #2 = 1.376"

Average = 1.3245"

Rifle and setup..




Range..









Target




[img:right]http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2250/777751/24585826/411233765.jpg[/img]

Didn't you get the memo that button chrome lined barrels wont shoot?

Nice!


Current Rankings:

Optics:

1) wareagle700: 1.246 MOA
2) BGunn: 1.265 MOA
3) TWR: 2.308 MOA

Iron Sights:
1) wareagle700: 167-0x (3.320 MOA)

I measured to the wrong hole first time, I think I'm at 1.2650 after correction..


L O L poop happens !!

The Range




One of the guns



Best Target shot by Noveske barrel with Hornady COTS 55VMAX.



Best Target shot by DD Light Weight barrel Horn COTS 55VMAX



The DD upper wears a nice 1.5-6 Victory HT, the Noveske a 1-6 VX6. The reticle is thicker, however I am disappointed in the Noveske barrel. I am putting a 3.5-10 on it and will reshoot with 55VMAX. I like the balance of the 18 inch barrel but not 2 inch groups at 100 yards. Here are some other Noveske barrel groups.



[img]http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff205/Jimmyp50/P1050851_zpshxpqlktu.jpg[/img]

Best group DD Upper with LW barrel 1.25 inches. I measured it with calipers as well. A cheap chrome barrel out shoots a $500 SS wonder. Will send pictures when I mount the other scope and try again.

[img]http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff205/Jimmyp50/deerrifle_zpsaae467a1.jpg[/img]

That VX6 1-6 is definitely not a target scope but it's easy to kill stuff with it. I am gonna try my 18" Noveske this evening if the weather holds.

I'm building 4 rigs right now. Hope to join the fun when I get a chance to get them all together. Honey dos and kiddos keep getting in the way

Given a target you can see well enough, its not that much of a hindrance either...

FWIW I have best luck with low power scopes or load testing with a 6x or 9x at 600 yards, by using a diamond instead of a square and then using the copier to enlarge/reduce as needed.

Last I looked I THINK I have diamonds from half inch to about 5 inches.

This is a placemarker until i get cleared to shoot from my carpal tunnel.
?

10 rds at 100 yds off a bipod and rear bag.
14.5" Northtech defense with Mk4 4.5-14 (only for load testing)
69gr bthp on R15

nice for a 10 shot group! Good start there!

24.5 of RL15?

24gr even Rost

Cool. Same or about, that I"ve put behind 75s for some time, though the accuracy from RL15 never seemed as good as other powders it was pretty close.

A decided lack "sub moa all day long" rifles....





Reality is often a harsh mistress.



1-1.5 MOA for 10 rounds is consistently about what a solid shooter can expect with most match ammo without cherry picking groups when just dropping down and shooting. Certainly can be smaller, but that isn't average.

I don't even have a clue if all my loaded ammo thats 10 plus years old and the guns in teh safe along with me are capable anymore.

I know that you are fooling yourself though if you are not dealing in 10 shot groups. They show reality IMHO. I"ve shot some snug 10 shot groups that had 1-3 rounds open them up, but thats reality really.

My goal was always 1.5 inches for 10 at 300 with my service rifles. Most of the time I could get there or close... but sometimes it was not easy.

me thinks a $500 Noveske barrel should shade 1MOA with match ammo, which ain't happening in this barrel. Hell I am just going to buy me a Mini 14.

I think the AR itself, with a good barrel and ammo, is capable of great accuracy. I see no reason why one couldn't shoot .5 MOA if shooter error was eliminated. However, I think anything consistently under MOA is great from an AR given the fact that the AR is more difficult to shoot accurately than a bolt gun.

Lets see more targets. I could have sworn there were some good shooters here.

I'm not a big group shooter, but maybe somebody can explain to me why ten shot groups are necessary.

If my AR is for hunting and I don't ever plan on shooting more than five shots at a time, why would I care what a ten shot group looks like? If five shots are ALWAYS in a group that's acceptable to me at the ranges I shoot at, why would it bother me that ten shot groups are too big?

It seems akin to saying a rifle isn't accurate unless it shoots well at 500 yards, when the hunter only ever hunts at 75 yards.

For reference, my deer rifle holds four rounds-so I shoot four shot groups. But have been told that my four shot groups aren't acceptable because they're short one round.

The industry standard is 3 shots, even GA Precision's accuracy guarantee is 3 shots.

3 is easy and 5 is what I shoot mostly when I shoot groups. Though I have gotten off the bench for most of my shooting and have been shooting steel.

This is a fun excersize nothing more, I never did get my best accuracy off a bipod even with 5 shots. 10 shots tell you what the rifle is doing but also what you are doing. If I was looking for the best groups, I would use a front bag and let the barrel cool between shots or at least groups. but the range was closed this evening for the monthly meeting, maybe I can find a dry day to get out soon.

I still have other AR's and irons to shoot.

Any barrel that is 300 bucks as is, without setup/chambering, should be solidly under MOA with the right ammo. If not its a clunker

The worst we ever had was a Krieger that approached MOA... hovered around 3/4-7/8 basically for its complete life. Was a lemon to me compared to others, but it shot well enough to win stuff in the meantime...

For a while I had a single target that I used on every trip to the range.

I'd fire the first shot of the day at the same target. It was interesting to see a bunch of one-shot groups all on the same target.

Blue,

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/279218_.html

This is a pretty good explanation as to why 3 shot groups, and even a single 5 shot group, are not a big enough sample size to accurately measure the potential of a given rifle or load.

While accurate, your statement shoots your plan in the foot, IMO.

There's always some a-hole that picks at your good ideas, and in this case, that's me........and you.

By your statement, you agree with me that this test, while fun (and I'm gonna do it soon as I get my AR together), is only 1/3 about the rifle itself. The other third is optics, mostly including parallax issues, and the final third is the nut behind the trigger.

When I take your challenge, and I get to shot 7 or 8 (no matter how it's going), I *know* there's gonna be shooter error.

So what does this exercise tell us? Seems to me, and considering Blue's post, that pressure is the real test, rather than the weapon's inherent accuracy. To be able to make the shot when it counts, when the first 7 are tight, but you need 10.

While 10 is the number, each individual trigger pull is a test in itself.

The whole point of this thread is to test the rifle and shooter as a whole. Its not for me as much as it is for those who try it out and try to beat their old score. It would be next to impossible to ask random people to show the mechanical accuracy of their rifles and expect accurate results. Thats the reason I want the shooter supporting the rifle in some way and don't want lead sleds or benchrest setups holding the rifle steady.

I plan on beating my score this weekend.

my new build got a higher power scope swapped to it today, I finished the lower put in a SSA-e, a B5 sophmod, did not get a Ergo grip yet, get that next week. I am going to see if it does any better at 10X.

It is a lot smoother shooting than the 16 inch LW from DD.

y your statement, you agree with me that this test, while fun (and I'm gonna do it soon as I get my AR together), is only 1/3 about the rifle itself. The other third is optics, mostly including parallax issues, and the final third is the nut behind the trigger.

which is why I always take my Xanax before shooting...

Why ten rounds? Statistical relevancy.

Unless you are stacking every 3 shot group on the same target, those three shots tell you basically nothing. You can shoot 3-5 three shot groups on the same target but it won't look any different than a single 10 shot group. 10 shots aren't even enough.

If a person can't press the trigger 10 times without having a seizure, than he probably doesn't have a clue what his rifle can do.






For a forum dedicated to shooting..... People sure do try to find an excuse not to.

I agree completely with the concept, this is gonna be fun.

And I think it's great the way you call out the pos(t)ers that claim accuracy on other threads. May make you some enemies, and I admire that.

I hope there are no hard feelings on the call outs. It's just a little friendly competition, just be ready to back up what you claim.


New target for scoped rifles:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?res...y=!ANEKTKrmLUB-fOk&ithint=file%2cpdf

If I shoot a pile of three shot groups, out of my three shot rifle, then of course they tell me something. They tell me how a magazine full of bullets from my gun is likely to group.

We're not exactly trying to split an atom here. Knowing how my four shot hunting rifle will group after I reload it 1.5 times is statistically IRrelevant to me as a hunter.
___________________________________________

No doubt that ten shot groups give you more data to consider, but at what point to you just not need the data?

A true test of my car would be to see how it performs at high speeds on wet roads. But I don't drive 120mph on wet roads, so I never cared to find out just how well it can "perform".

Same / Same with shooting ten shot groups from a four shot hunting rifle.

None of that intended to be a knock on wareagle's thread. If you're gonna have a friendly shooting match you've gotta set some kind of standard and ten rounds seems as good a number as any for magazine fed guns.

To steal a meme from the NFL mess, if Blue's runnin 57,000 psi, and I'm only runnin 55, do we subtract 1/2" from my group size?

Seems only fair.

Now we gotta have drug testing, too.

Blue, I went with two 10rd groups because it would be too easy to get lucky with a 3 shot group. You really have to work for 10, then do it again. Thats the challenge.

I think it's a good number for something like this. You've gotta make it difficult enough to eliminate some of the luck factor, but easy enough to make people want to participate and simple enough that it doesn't take a big range or crazy props to complete.

It's a good one.

Our local club does something like this, it's good fun along with some coaching from good/experienced competitive shooters.

The thing I learned at the first shoot is that a 3x Nikon reticle covers a whole lotta target at 100 yards. Good for coyotes, not so much for fine shot placement.

Lower PSI is cheating.

You have to add a 1/2".

Gotta try that with my condoms.

I think it is fun and educational to shoot 10, I always shot 3-5 and called it good. I took all my groups and did not hand pick them (who can afford too with 10 rounds) and fired them about as fast as I could with getting settled behind the gun for each shot. I don't know how long it took to shoot them but the barrel was hot when I finished a string.

You can and need to learn to disregard the tension that causes bad shots... I know.. I used to be able to shoot a 199 but dang it all pressure would screw me and at least one shot up.

Once I had a "coach" that was supposed to be all it, that was from the guard teams... and had retired. I had fired around 17 shots at 600, and had 15 X IIRC, and that might have been something close to a service rifle record at the time, IF I had shot a 200... and of course he says... literally, don't intercourse this up now, keep shooting Xs... well guess what... 199 and some Xs later, IIRC I had the x count beat but a 199 is worthless...

I finally got over that and shot 200s at the time fairly often.

In fact in a state match in TX many moons ago, where David Tubb was trying out his new 2000 in 6XC and I was trying out a brand new upper in 6.5 twist 223 with 90 jlks... I had a perfect string going at 600 when my scorekeeper, a real hot head azz, but great shot, his cell started ringing... I only had a few shots left and it was windy... I roll over and say, Steve I'll stop, you can catch that, he got all nervous, mumbling keep shooting you fool, nope I'm good, go ahead... so finally he answers, blabs I'll call you back, and hangs up.. mabye 90 seconds or so... and I settle back in and send the next X downrange, won that stage, Tubb had 197 as did a LaBerge. First ever 200 shot on that range that had been open a couple years or so. It was a state championship match on top of it. It was an open match, meaning I shot handicap with a service rifle against match rifles, IE bolt guns. And still won it.

Having won the 800 and 900 yard stages of a state palma the day before with the same gun, and loosing 1000 by a bit, ending up 3rd over all in the palma with a service rifle.

I say this not to brag at all, and sorry for the digression, as I don't think of myself as that good of a shot anyway, but simply if you are having issues shooting 10 or even 20 good shots, or even just 3-5, you just need to shoot and get over the anxiety part of it.

Lord knows if I could do that, then you or anyone else (except my SIL) can do it. Its mental. You can conquer that. Its your brain, control it!

Sorry for getting OT there...

Not off topic at all Jeff. In fact that's what this is all about, learning to deal with pressure, real or imagined.

As I said when I posted my target, once I pulled the 8th shot it was all over mentally. My second group had a different POA and was rushed because I knew a 2.5" "flyer" knocked me out of the running. Had I got up and got my head right, I might have scored better.

And I will next go or the go after that, it's all practice that makes us better when we look at what we did instead of making excuses and not shooting at all. Maybe next month we'll do 5, 5 shot groups on the same target for those that don't like 10 shot groups. But honestly, did you ever better yourself doing just what you are good at? Challenge yourself!

Now let's see some more targets.

Exactly right on challenges. After 10 plus years of not shooting, I'm expecting I probalby will suck to an extent.

BUT the way we got better was not by shooting with the also rans, but with the best, and trying to get to their level and then beat em.

And in highpower, especially service rifle, if you beat the best there was, they were almost all happy to give you a pat/shake/hug and congratulate you.

You figure out how to make a 22 shot match, 22 mini matches if you will. But along the way you learn to shoot faster, cleaner, better, and it all comes with practice...

Once I learned i could shoot perfect scores at 600, my next goal was 1000, where it had never been done, and then finally done once with the loads and bullets I'd give to the AMU team. I don't know that I could ever do it now, but at the time I KNEW i could do it. IT may not have happened but knowing you could in your mind was a big thing.

I've always sucked at standing and my brain knows it. Wife and I both felt we were only a bit away from figuring standing out, mentally mostly, and being able to be at the very top of the game mostly with the top front runners and actually be contenders.

I loved so much to shoot. And simply don't find the time now, but as I noted, I managed to get a fence around the berm late Sunday night, and have mowed it once at 100 yards, and the way its raining, will have to shred again this weekend if not to muddy, which means just maybe I'll get to play.

Honestly I think Blue's idea though, has always been the best for testing your real ability, its how we did it with bows for years...

One shot, cold bore, once a day or even every other day or whatever until you have X shot on the same target. Or overlayed.

It tests the gun, the shooter, the load, and the weather issues.

I don't know much at all about scopes, but trust me there is a LOT that can affect iron sight shot location, but never touch group size. And vice versa.

For starters how many realize(with optics too) that the effect of mirage is seperate from the effect of wind? Most just think mirage tells you what the wind is doing. And it can do that, but there is more to the puzzle.

Night shooting with no wind and mirage tells a LOT. Shooting on a fairly cool day, thats partly cloudy and shooting in and out of mirage, can be an eye opener sometimes.

Wareagle, is a Caldwell Tack Driver bag ok to use for this challenge? If not, can just a regular front bag or pack be used?
Thanks.

What? The copyright for the bulls bag expired? Had not seen those.

A buddy had one, didn't care that much for it, but some folks have great luck with them.

Yeah that's fine.

This target was shot using a Zeiss 3x9 scope on my Ar. The rifle is a Noveske lower and a Daniel Defense upper. I'm not sure of the make of the barrel. I got it from Wareagle700 and he said it was the best barrel ever made. It is 20 inches long with a 1/9 twist and is chrome lined. The barrel is not free floated.
I am submitting this target while I wait for the chance to shoot with a peep sight.

The group on the right was fired first, starting with a cold barrel. The load used was Hornady 55 grain V-Max right out of the box. I was actually not surprised with this group size as the rifle always shoots this load very well. I have just never fired ten shots in a row with it before. The larger group was fired immediately after the first ten and was fired with a hot barrel using the same ammo. I guess that non floating type hand guard probably caught up with me. Anyway, I'm not going to shoot two ten shot groups, each with a cold barrel, to convince myself of anything. I'll just stick with those tiny three shot groups and have fun.

That's a Bushmaster barrel, looks like it does good enough. With that group on the right I think I'd have to try the challenge again.

I'll get a target up in the near future.

Put together a new load of 50gr VMax, 24.0 gr Xterminator. Need to test it out so this challenge seems like a good fit.

A bulls bag is legal? I gotta do it again!

I did order a shooting mat that will allow me to load my bipod but it won't be in till next month. what the heck I started shooting pistols and had to buy a timer, then a Dillon, a mat won't ever be noticed.

I'm going to have to give this a shot. Looks like too much fun and I've never shot a 10 shot group with any rifle. I've got to say up front though, I'm one of those shooters that likes to use the whole target. I can't see shooting up only a small part of it, so I go for even coverage…

hmm.. reminds me we are supposed to have a dillon mat around here somewhere too... it wasn't worth a flip for highpower matches but Carolyn loved it cause it was blue... I need to see if I can find it again, would be ideal for this instead of our customized mats....

Confirmed zero with 5 rounds of 62gr barrier, then shot cold no prep. .6mil shift from 62gr barrier to 60gr LimPen.











1st Group- 2.024 inches
2nd Group- 1.718 inches

Average= 1.871 inches



Rifle- SOPMOD BLK II M4A1 with Giessele Trigger and Surfire brake/Suppressor adaptor
Optic- Vortex 1-6x
Ammo- 60gr Limited Pen

So in the interest of discussion, here is a target that I used for zero confirm with the same gun/ammo and model of scope. Four different 5 round groups spread over one month. The end result is that the overall group size for all rounds is about the same as one average 10 round group. I have done this a bunch of times and it's always the same whether it's a bunch of 1 shot "groups" on the same target, a bunch of 3 shots "groups" on the same target, or a bunch of 5 shot "groups" on the same target. The reason for this is simple- statistical relevancy.

It isn't the size of those three or five shots groups that's the issue (it is... but), it's the fact that those three and five shot groups don't land in the same place every time. The whole purpose of " grouping" is to know the size of the cone to allow one to know how accurate that rifle is (hitting targets).


In any case..

1st five (looks zeroed, right?)-





2nd five (notice how the group isn't looking so centered anymore...)-



3rd five (again notice center)-






Last five (





That target compared to the 2x 10 round groups from today.




There is 1/10th of an inch difference between them and it's in the 10 rounds groups favor.




The gun doesn't know whether it's firing it's 1st round, 3rd round, 5th round, or 50th. If a gun is a "sub MOA" gun, then that means that of a sub MOA target is hung not one single round will miss it.

The vortex seems to be holding zero.

Formidilosus,

Nice shooting, nice rifle, and good example of why 3 shot groups don't cut the mustard for this type of shooting. What barrel is on your Block II?


Current Rankings:

Optics:

1) wareagle700: 1.246 MOA
2) BGunn: 1.265 MOA
3)Formidilosus: 1.787 MOA
4) TWR: 2.308 MOA

Iron Sights:
1) wareagle700: 167-0x (3.320 MOA)

wareagle,

It is a standard Colt M4A1 SOCOM barrel with a bit over 6,000 rounds on it. Very near the end of it's service life.









The one that was used for the 4x5 round groups had a catastrophic failure less then a week after the last group.






That is the third 1-6x Razor to do so. We'll see how long the currents one lasts.

You could work that up a bit. X-Terminator always gives me the best accuracy pushed to max. In a 5.56 chamber you can take that load at least 2 grains higher.

I'm hoping to get to the range this weekend, to shoot one of these targets.

You all not going to count my DD barrel/optics 1.25?

I don't doubt it.

I was running 25.0 gr XTerm under the 50 VMax and accuracy was about 1 moa in the Ruger American Predator, and about 1.5-2.0 moa in the AR-15.

I was hoping that dropping pressure a bit might tighten it up, but we'll see. You may well be right in that 26.0+ might be the sweet spot.

Unless I am reading it wrong, I only saw one group from that rifle in your post. You need to average two 10 shot groups and have the appropriate pictures for the entry. Look back at the original post for the format to follow. If you want to enter two different rifles, please make separate post. Thanks!

Wow, I've only heard problems with a handful of 1-6 Razor's and they were all in that post. You either have very bad luck or made an enemy at Vortex.

Negative. The reason that people do not see issues with optics is because-

1) They don't test them for function.

2) They make excuses for why shots miss.

3) They change ammo constantly, always playing and therefore never could notice when POI changes.

And


4) The biggest reason is that very few actually shoot enough for it to matter.




I test optics initially upon mounting by zeroing correctly, testing tracking, return to zero, and drop "testing". I then confirm zero every time the scope is used with the exact same lot of ammo as it was zeroed with and log it. It is obvious when a scope loses zero or fails to adjust correctly.


Seeing as many optics as I do a year, with as many rounds fired... trends show quickly. And it's not just from thousands and thousands of rounds fired either. Lots of scope do not function correctly straight out of the box and/or fail within a few hundred rounds.

Well that sucks, I shot two different rifles, 3 different types of ammunition, 10 shots.If you can shoot a 1.25 inch 10 shot group, that should be "statistically significant". Or I can shoot 5 10 shot groups and throw out the bad ones...

I may shoot 1 20 shot group, will that count?

The rifle is a Rock River Arms lower with a Mega Billet side charging upper. It has a Daniel Defense 16" LW barrel with a 7 inch twist. I have a Leupold VX-3 3.5X10 scope on it using Burris PEPR mounts. The forarm is rifle length made by Troy.

This rifle usually has the first three shots touching or nearly touching. The next two usually make a 5 shot group that measures between .5 and .6 inches. I've never shot it for a 10 shot group before and wasn't surprised when it opened up to around two inches. I don't know if the problem is the barrel getting hot because it is really light weight or not, but I suspect that it might be mostly the shooter losing concentration.



The average group size is 2.02 inches. I'm not surprised or disappointed. I'm also not going to change anything because I look at like the danger zone with this rifle increases as the barrel warms up. I circled the first five shots of each group just to see what happened to the rest of the string as I shot.


Range and Daisy the wonder dog.


Rifle on the bench

Formidilosus,
Got ya. What scopes in the 1-4 and 1-6 range would you recommend?

Jimmy,
I would prefer to stick to the plan as described in the OP. You are welcome to post groups here as much as you want but to be ranked in the challenge your entry needs to follow the guidelines. I wasn't pleased with my entry but I posted it anyway. I'll do better next time, that's what this is for. Print out the instructions and take them to the range if you have to, even I had to look back at them before I shot and took pictures.

Mathsr,
Nice, you should have stay put after the first 5 rounds though, looks like getting out of your shooting position opened up the groups. As well as I know you and know where those groups were shot, I need a picture of the range and calipers over a group for your entry to count.

Thanks.

From page one:


The Rules:
ALL targets must be shot from 100 yards.
20 rounds will be scored, flyers included.
The rifle can be shot from any position as long as the shooter is supporting the rifle. Bipods, slings, and rear bags are ok to use. NO bench rest, lead sleds, or machine rest may be used.
All 20 rounds must be fired on the same day, from the same rifle.
Iron Sights will fire two 10 shot groups at the reduced 600 yard NRA targets.
Scoped rifles will fire two 10 shot groups at the target listed below (different targets are ok, just make sure both groups are on the same piece of paper)
Iron sighted rifles and scoped rifles will be ranked separately.


Please have your post in this Order:

1) Picture of rifle and setup.
2) Picture of 100 yard range.
3) Picture of target (optics) or targets (irons) with 20 rounds through them. (place calipers or ruler laying over one group for reference)
4) Description of rifle and ammo used.
5) For optics, list your group sizes and the average. For Iron sights, please list the group size and score.

Mathsr,


Notice the sift in POI between your two circled 5 rounds groups? It doesn't matter how close together the first five are if those five shift on the target (which they will). If you continued to fire five round groups you can take it to the bank that a 2+/- inch group will appear where those ten rounds groups are now.


To put another way- it looks like the circled five are a bit less than an inch? If you hung a target as big as those five, would you hit it every single time?

Just got back from the range and took the Stag out for the first time. Don't have the same targets as you guys but I think wareagle said anything is fine so long as the rules are followed.

Shot a few different types of ammo but 75gr seemed to be working best so went with that for the groups.
Stag model 6
SWFA 16x
SWFA SSALT mount
black hills re-mfg 75gr


pic of the range kinda sucks i know but its 100 yards

1.238+1.191=2.429
2.429/2=1.21

No, I wouldn't. But I would be very close with the first few shots, if not on and I am good with that. It isn't a target rifle and wasn't planned to be. It is shooting much better than I expected with such a light weight barrel and the few loads I've been able to try in it so far. I will watch to see if the groups shift POI in a significant way as I continue to shoot it.

I think my first shots are better than my last shots, after 50 or so rounds of concentration my eyes tend to get a bit blurry...

I noticed my older eyes starting to get blurry earlier this year. I don't eat nearly enough fruit and veggies but just happened to start taking a good multivitamin. Within a couple weeks after starting up on the vitamins, I noticed I was not having the vision problems so I plan to keep up with that and do better on the fruit/veggies.

Not only the vitamins there are specifi eye vitamins, and there is sugar involved in vision, maybe eyeball will comment..

I recall something about drinking natural fruit juice before shooting long range, nothing involving sugar and some difference between fructose and somethign else...

It made a HUGE difference as I was having a vision issue around shot 12-15 of a 22 round match. THat got rid of that issue.

PS we were mostly shooting 88 shots at least in a match... that can wear you out, plus the heat and packign your gear back and forth to boot. Having had heat exhaustion from shooting more than once... Seeing stars ain't a good thing.

Nice shooting Certifiable.

Mathsr,
Please put a set of calipers or a ruler over one of those groups for reference.


Current Rankings:

Optics:
1) Certifiable: 1.155 MOA
2) wareagle700: 1.246 MOA
3) BGunn: 1.265 MOA
4) Formidilosus: 1.787 MOA
5) Mathsr: 1.928 MOA
6) TWR: 2.308 MOA

Iron Sights:
1) wareagle700: 167-0x (3.320 MOA)

He may or may not have an optics issue, if worried about the heating, I"d just shoot 3 shots, let it cool some, shoot 3 more until I have 10 in the group.

That should answer if its barrel heating or not.

A good barrel, even a light one, should not walk like that.

OTOH it can also be a function of recoil, body position, NPA, and HOW you are looking through the scope, even though it shouldn't matter with optics, it can matter with optics.

IMHO without a correction on the knobs, I'm amazed that a scope would start to wonder some after a few rounds. That kind of shift with irons would be an NPA issue all day long.

But since I have never really shot optics other than on deer rifles a few shots here and there, you should know more than I for sure.

Ruler on the group. It isn't what the group was measured with initially, but it is as good as I can do from the house. Did I forget anything else? I'm trying my best to lock down last place and want to be sure I get it right!

Updated the rankings, thanks.

Thanks wareagle.. And thanks for this thread as well. It's cool to see what rifles other guys are using and how they've got them set up.

Like I said that model 6 is new to me and yesterday was its maiden voyage..I shot about 80 rounds including the two tens for this thread. It didn't like either 50 or 60 gr vmax, But did well with 69, 75, an 77 gr bullets, with a few groups just over 1/2" in those weights..

I'll get it back out soon and see how things shake out. My brother just took delivery of the same rifle albeit set up a smidge different so I'll show him this thread as well.. I can't imagine I'll be at the top for long with all the truly experienced shooters here, but I'm going to enjoy it while it lasts!!

This chalenge was done with my .308 AR. The rifle has a 17" rifle gas Lilja barrel, SLR gas block, JP LMOS bolt group, and Geissele SSA-E trigger. The ammo used was factory Hornady 168 HPBT Match. I don't know if it was me pulling the first shot, the way I loaded the first round, or jerking the trigger but the first round in each group flew left of all the others. Looks like I had a lot of horizontal shift also, maybe I need to work on a more consistent NPA. Ill have to try again I guess without the flyers maybe. Anyway, here are my less than desireable results.

Rifle:



Range:



Groups:




1.968 MOA average.........

The range.



Guns



Targets



Results







A damn yellow fly was buzzing around my head and I pulled two with the DD gun.

Best with Noveske barrel and 3.5-10 scope 1.136 average, bigger red dot used with DD gun due to 1.5-6 power scope vs 3.5-10 on Noveske, put the VX-6 on my 308, it does OK there...
I cannot afford to shoot this again but I think the DD barrel chrome barrel might shade a Noveske but I blew it after 30 rounds fired. I now know the VX-6 crosswire is too thick for precision work.

Saw a nice black snake today as well...

Current Rankings:

Optics:
1) jimmyp: 1.085 MOA (page 5)
2) Certifiable: 1.155 MOA (page 5)
3) wareagle700: 1.246 MOA (page 1)
4) BGunn: 1.265 MOA (page 2)
5) jimmyp: 1.537 MOA (page 5)
6) Formidilosus: 1.787 MOA (page 4)
7) Mathsr: 1.928 MOA (page 4)
8) wareagle700: 1.968 (page 5)
9) TWR: 2.308 MOA (page 1)

Iron Sights:
1) wareagle700: 167-0x / 3.320 MOA (page 1)

Nice job, Dude.

I'll get around to shooting this in a while........putting a new gun together & then have to break the (SS) barrel in & then shoot some groups.

MM

thanks, I was about to throw the new Noveske barrel in the trash. It had about 20 round through it before I shot it the challenge first time. Before I tried the challenge again, I cleaned it good with Butch's bore shine, added a new lower I had built up with an H1 buffer/SSA-E (may need and H2 looking at ejection) and changed from a VX-6 1-6 in an Aero precision Ultralight mount to a known Kahles 3.5-10x50 in an LT-104.

The VX-6 in the Aeromount was put on a SR-762 (had the Kahles on it) that usually makes 1 MOA with 5 shots of 150 grain WW powerpoints and it proceeded to shoot a 3 MOA for 10 shots yesterday.

Could have been something with the new barrel, more possible the Aero precision mount or VX-6, I am going to buy a new LT-104 for the VX-6. As I reverse dialed the settings when I swapped scopes and zeroed the Kahles with XM193 on the Noveske upper and the first 308 bullet was only 3 inches off, scope is probably OK if it dials right I guess??? The older I get the less I understand...

I told you the VX6 1-6 w/Firedot wasn't a target scope but it is a great scope for it's intended role.

Glad you got the Noveske sorted out. Good shooting!

Yahoo, mowed again, found my stool, glove, sling etc...

And even found what might be an ok box of old ammo to boot.

Can't find a damn 100 yard target for squat and eyes cna't shoot at black and white worth a flip..

heading to Moms to dig around up there some and see.

Wind is 30mph but thats not that big of a deal.

Oh yeah, have to find a gun after that... one step closer....

This ought to be embarrasing as heck if I get that far...

Dang the luck, found the gun about the time the pager started going off..

House fire alarm and CPR/medivac flight out, but brought the gal back to life... I"m beat...

Wind blowing stupid...

Maybe later if it doesn't rain before dark.

Still need to find somethign for lunch and its almost 3 here...

Went out this morning and tried again with the Noveske, wind didn't do me any favors but I still can't get it right.

Shot my Colt pencil barrel with the 3x acog too, the horse shoe dot covered up the target but I still shot about a 3" average. Maybe I need to clean the Noveske and swap scopes.

Go higher power/smaller reticle...

Shoot a bigger target/aiming point.

Gun
Range
Groups.


Gun Core 30 308 ammo 168 otm . SSA factory think the load was 41.5 gr of sm 749 BR2 primes. Scope is 2.5 x8 m4 mrt. Group 1. 2.140. Group 2. 2.113. = ave of 2.126 ? Do we -.308 or not then the ace would be 1.8185"

You can and really should subtract the difference of .224 vs .308, but not subtract a full .308.

That way center to center of all shots is the same.

Same way we used a step up plug to plug .224 shots up to 308 in highpower for some time. Made sense. but then they decided the .224 was better and easier to shoot, so it was back to group size period.

But then again are we subtracting anything from .224 groups?

About to pour here, so I'm done for any chance of shooting this morning at least.

well what the heck, I might as well play, though the leaders be safe

Daniel Defense Mk12 with 18" barrel. Exchanged the SSA trigger for a DMR, and changed to a Magpul STR stock. Loopey VX-R 3-9x40 in American Defense QD mount.

Load is 77gr Tipped Matchkings over 24 gr of CFE223 and CCI 41 primers, seated to mag length. Brass was brand new Nosler brass.

The rifle:



the range



It was threatening rain all morning, and the wind was variable, But the first group was 1.44", and the 2nd was 1.62, for an average of 1.53"



I suspect the rifle will do better, especially after tuning the loads a bit more...and the shooter learning to shoot better...

Anyone shooting LC brass anymore or is it un obtainable?

We never shot anything except LC and RP nickel one time for another reason.

LC has given me all I ever needed for accuracy while remaining reasonably priced.

I found my lot of new LC uncrimped brass stash last year, loaded 1000 rounds and stuck em back. Started shooting them yesterday.

LC brass is my top choice but pretty much anything other than federal I have been pleased with. Just shot the last of my virgin LC brass today, time to get more I guess.

fredIII,
Yes, group size is measured center to center for this. Those .308's are hard to tame aren't they?

tex_n_cal,
Nice shooting. I have been tempted to try the 77 TMK's but have been holding out to see how they perform for others at magazine length. It looks like they have a secant ogive like the 75gr Hornady's so I wonder if they are picky about seating depth.


Current Rankings:

Optics:
1) jimmyp: 1.085 MOA (page 5)
2) Certifiable: 1.155 MOA (page 5)
3) wareagle700: 1.246 MOA (page 1)
4) BGunn: 1.265 MOA (page 2)
5) tex_n_cal: 1.461 (page 5)
6) jimmyp: 1.537 MOA (page 5)
7) fredIII: 1.736 MOA (page 5)
8) Formidilosus: 1.787 MOA (page 4)
9) Mathsr: 1.928 MOA (page 4)
10) wareagle700: 1.968 (page 5)
11) TWR: 2.308 MOA (page 1)

Iron Sights:
1) wareagle700: 167-0x / 3.320 MOA (page 1)

Fred should get bonus points, cause he shot his upside down.

Y'all finally got to me. Not at all what I wanted to do,IE shoot off a bench, but it quit raining long enough, and forecast through the end of May we likely will have rain chances each day. Water on the range so I didn't grab the mat, so I cheated and used my deer rifle light front rest and bag back and shot the dang thing off a bench. I really feel better in the sling prone, but it is what it is.

Of course when I had time to get to the range, the sun was gone behind a cloud, late in the day just now. I boogied in the mule and left at 725 from the house, drove 300 or so yards, stapled 2 targets(yep I found em, finally) up, went back to 110 yard bench, and cheated again, you'll have to throw em out or whatever, but the gun was never fired at 100 before... I took 3 sighter shots, to get more or less to center, then fired 10 rounds. I pretty much suck it seems. No shooting irons in 11 years. Old mixed ammo 75 amax with cracked necks, mixed primers and cheap surplus powder.

First group when I toss out what I know where sighters, and one was a 10, the one in the white you can see, the other two are a low 9 around 7, the white circle has black mark to show it was SS2, and the other a 10 around 10 oclock, it has a black mark on the circle either side of it.

Put the spotting scope down, and fired 10 rounds as fast as I could load and squeeze.

Checked that group, gave the second up and right and again proved I can't shoot much anymore and dumped 10 more down and drove down.

Back at home at 738.

Looks like about 99-5 and 99-3, I didn't dig out my scoring plug, and did a fair CT to CT measurement of both groups. 1.266 and ughh ughh 1.565

I can say this much, my old RX for the eyes isn't right anymore. I needed a bit more light, and of course as I drove down the sun popped out for a few minutes....to get the targets down... to late.

I'll play this again one day, may try to get some of the other ammo I have in cans and shoot some of it.

With cracking necks and such, none of it will be all that great but certainly I should be able to get a pair of groups down around 1 inch or under I'd hope.

Emailed my pics to the wife, she'll get em on photo bucket sometime, I'll post the pics then. I forgot to look at rules but have the gun/bench and target in one, and the targets in the otehrs.

If I can remember not to pull the trigger until the sights are just right and blink off the bad sight pictures and use a scope to check every shot, it should get better.

Please bear in mind the targets were shot normal orientation but I wasn't paying attention trying to get a photo you could see the calipers on better so the angles were weird..

So you can see I'm not scared to show how rusty I am.

That is incredible shooting.

no, thats far from incredible. There are many folks much more talented.

bit of info on the rifle before I crash for the night

Holliger built of course, upper has a 7 twist Krieger SS on it. Has a lot of surface rust on it from a wet run where we didn't get them dry well enough before a 2 day drive home... bore was oiled though, so as I often say, its not the outside but the inside..

Rear sight is hooded, Holliger, 1/4 x1/4 pinned. Hood might have a 052 in it right now I didn't check. Front is milled and 037 wide, IE skinny but has worked for me well. Wife had to have a wider one, 050 IIRC.

My front sight is same aparent width as the aiming black at all ranges.

Floated with RRA tube. Lower is an old colt sporter with block in it, but has Milazzo trigger( how many even know that name) in it thats been really great over the years. Best i've ever felt actually. We are fortunate to have 2.

Chamber is Wylde.

Stock is A2, and might be painted in green mirage paint as we were getting bored with black, black and black.. it was one thing the rules would allow. buddy has one in TX flag colors, I still have white lowers I want a few blue anodized as the wife loves blue and her plastic hardware was blue for a few yeras..

That's still great shooting.............

MM

Well, if you find any let us know; I haven't seen any LC stuff virgin brass in quite a while...........I'm into my last 300 rounds that I've been using for my bolt gun.

MM

Thanks

The 24gr CFE223 is the very first load I have tried with them, and I think I may nudge the load up a bit, as well as try some different primers.

Varget with the same bullets should be worth a try, too.

I did notice if I sucked it up tighter it tightens the groups up a bunch but did not notice tell after I shot my two groups and in the spirt of a fun competition I turned in my first attempt. Great idea to have a little Saturday fun with. Thanks might try my 6.8 for 2 10 this week and see how it fairs ..

dyslexic at it's worst

Never had virgin brass in my life from LC stuff, though it was out there, once fired did plenty fine over the years. FWIW.

99% of my .223 brass is once fired range brass that I pick up. I came across the fresh LC brass a few years ago and the deal was too good to pass on. I'd buy it again today if I found it.

I'm still in the old days of 19 bucks per 1000 of LC brass... probably why we have so much brass stashed around... LOL.

Guess the ones I shot yesterday on the target are no great loss with split necks. I am thankful I only have maybe 5000 or so loaded as most will split on firing after being in the heat for so many years in storage.

Are AR10 platforms included in this? I just ran the two targets with my GAP10 6Creed, and it shot pretty good.

what advantage, if any, of the 6 Creed vs. the 6.5 Creed?

The range at Fort Peck, Montana. Light winds, 45*F.



Rifle: GA Precision GAP10, 6MM Creedmoor
Barrel: 21" Bartlein 5R 1-7.7"
Scope: 3-12X50 S&B PMII



I don't shoot this rifle up close too much. It has 600 rounds through it. It shot really well at the Icebreaker, out to, and beyond 1000 meters.



Shot from prone with a Harris 6-9.

rost495 has inspired me, I'm going to wade deep into the caverns of my safe to find my service rifle and hopefully lay down and strap up this weekend to find out how bad my eyes have gotten.

By the way I found free NRA target downloads online.

Here is a link to MR-31's

Bison Ballistics MR-31 600 yd reduced target

I think we can all agree that scenarshooter has violated some sort of rule here and needs to be disqualified!!

That's pretty impressive....

Scenar is shooting the AR like its supposed to shoot!

I just have never really run optics on mine, exceptign a 6.8 necked to 6 and a 50 beowulf. Neither has load workup but both shoot well enough for the hunting they are used for.

I'd be trying to get to groups about the size or a hair bigger than scenar with irons, it sure is possible, have done it before, not sure I can again anymore.

Scenar, nice shooting! Never shot a creed, but I hear they have some inherent accuracy in em. Might be true a bit.

Thanks guys!

With irons I would have been lucky to hit the cardboard. Rost, I say your target shot with irons is more impressive than mine.

That rifle is about the funnest thing to shoot at longrange steel. I need to give it more attention.

My load is fairly mild, as I wanted a little less wear and tear on my brass. I believe that load produces 2950fps.

As far as comparing the 6 Creed, to the 6.5 Creed, not a terrible amount of difference....I'm just tooled up more for the 6. I have three rifles chambered for it, and another one on the way..

Very impressive!

My AR10 doesn't do that

They can though. But it used to be fairly well proven that the AR10 versions were pickier than the 15 versions. That may well all be worked out by now, as the early ones came in 308 thats a fairly accurate round to start with. Not like these groups are all becuase of the creedmoore.

Couldn't stand it any longer, so I yanked the Leupold VX-6 1-6 off my 16" Noveske light weight and stuck my 10x super chicken on it. Had some 55 grain NBT's loaded in Lapua brass so I grabbed them too and I made a crude mat to load my bipod on. Figured they are predicting more rain through next Sunday so this is it.
The gun and equipment used.

The range

The results

I still need to work on my shooting but the Noveske will shoot.
(I also adjusted the scope between groups.)

NIce, getting folks to work on their guns and shooting. Its all coming together.

I usually toss targets after I'm done, my two were on the floor in the office, I glanced and thought, that one group of mine wasn't all that bad... took one bad called low shot out of it that I knew was bad when it went off and 9 went into appx .850 Thats more like it.

I might take a run with the AR-10 carbine (as much as one can call a 10 lb rifle a carbine) which has a Rainier/Shilen Ultramatch barrel. I saw some headway on it the last time it was out prior to the Hog Hunt, so we'll see what it might do with some Matchkings. Realistically, though I think it's a 1.5"-2" rifle

There is also a bull barreled Armalite 15T here here that shot very well in the past, so I might just slap a scope on it and let fly.

10 shot groups can almost double the size most folks THINK or PROCLAIM their gun is capable of.

Most can't imagine how hard it was to try to track down 1.5 to 2 inch groups at 300 yards when shooting only 10 shot groups.

In most cases, the shooter is the weak link.

5 shot groups tell me how the gun will shoot, 10 shot groups tell me how I am shooting. Maybe next contest we can shoot multiple 5 shot groups. Maybe this target would work for optics?

mulitple groups will sure tell you your NPA too.

Funny after I got done, I had seen some shots, the recoil would bounce it to the side a hair, thats never good, and when I picked up the brass, most of it was touching each other but there were maybe 6-7 pieces out of that group and thats about how many fliers or bad shots I made in the process too. I had forgotten about how all of that can relate.

I'm used to, or was, to 22 shot groups and so big groups don't bother me. Could still generally win with 2 moa groups at 600 yards.

The factory 55 grain Hornady VMax shot better for me at 100 than any of the match bullets I tried (I guess). What should I be afraid to shoot a 55 grain Vmax at under 200 yards???? The VX-6 1-6 is a great low light pig/deer/whatever getter but not I think designed for precision work. I am still dumping the Aeroprecision mount, NF has a clamp on Ultralight 5 ounce device they want a small fortune for, but I am thinking that over the aeroprecision.

I shot the 55 gr NBT's this winter and killed pigs and coyotes with the 16" Noveske. I wouldn't be afraid to shoot anything with them or the Vmax's.

I knew the 77 Nosler's didn't shoot as accurate as the Sierra's but they open up a little easier and killed stuff just fine. I probably won't be buying anymore 77's unless I can find some tipped SMK's but I've got a stash of 55's that I have to use up before buying anything else first.

I ordered another LaRue mount and will stick my spare MK4 3.5-10 in it for range use but the 1-6 is still on the gun when I go to kill something. I have yet to find another mount that will beat out LaRue for my uses.

I bought a used LaRue a while back, that was already mounted on the Loopey Mark 6, and it is better than the American Defense, so I'll probably go that route in the future.

Interestingly enough, the way we tested accuracy on service rifles was the stupid carry handle mounts, that are not very expensive and don't look like much, but yet even with those I've shot groups as small as about 1.25 inches at 600 yards for 5 shots.

Amazes me to see that you have to buy expensive mounts to retain accuracy but as you know I don't run optics on ARs much.

The best setup I have is a riser and regular rings on a 6x6.8 First hunting load of TSX it shot under an inch easily and one shot groups for zero checks are usually on or within half an inch of target at 100.

That being said, I don't think that buying a top line mount hurts anything at all.

TWR, 75 bthps, which cannot be pushed as hard as 77s, will open up as will 73 bergers. FWIW. I've shot a LOT of stuff with 75 bthps and never had reason to complain. A fluke really as I have a shoe box of loads, maybe 1500 when I started for practice stuff, and had quit shooting, so in need of ammo, took em on a pig hunt and they worked just fine so started calling that my grab and go ammo.

I have not shot much with 77s, but all has died, but I don't have much of a sample there.

Those are great for 1 shot per bull and force your NPA on you big time. I'd think that a great cold bore test for your optics setups! But make it a diamond instead of round bull for the optics. At least I like those the most. NOt that I will ever shoot the optics session.

yes sir, I have two of them and like the LT-104 a lot, maybe I will just get a third. I experimented with the Aeromount and while it is very very light I found that the screws backed out of the clam shell holding the optic after using it for a few months. I have the VX-6 on the .308 now in the Aeromount and the screws are now "farmer tight". We will see what we will see.

I can actually get the ADM mount 70 cheaper than LaRue but choose to pay extra because I like them better. The only reason I use these is their return to zero capability. If I was going to just mount a scope and zero it then shoot, I'd be happy with Armalite or even RR. We used to use the ARMS #5 riser and rings back in the day.

Jeff forgive me but what is NPA?

I used to shoot these targets with my 22's at 50 and 100 yards, 5 shot groups in each one just for fun.

Oh and the 75 HPBT's worked fine and I could gain more speed with them but they would not shoot in a few of my guns so I quit trying them. Maybe it was due to being pushed too hard or I didn't try the right combination of components.

I bought a used SWFA 16x last night, which will go on a bull barrel Armalite 15T. That one will probably get an inexpensive mount as the rifle is mainly a varminter.

2650 to 2700 IIRC was about as fast as you could push 75s, and get any accuracy..

RE NPA, my bad as they say, Natural Point of Aim.

If you were to sling up and I even can tell if off a rest, and relax so taht you were pointed at the center bull basically, then move the gun to each bull and shot, each shot will be off just a hair, all due to the fact that you are not letting the gun point naturally at that bull, but actually moving it over with your muscles... If it recoils a hair left, the shot will be a hair left too boot.

Gotcha, I have a buddy who each time he starts out he dry fires several times before he loads up. I need to take more time but always seem to be in a hurry.

Tex, the super chickens are really nice if you dial any at all, very repeatable. I had this one on my 22 and never did get the dials to not move where I wanted them to. Glass is not terrible but if everything is just not right with conditions, I can't see 22 holes at 100 yards unless they are in the white.

Much better than the one I looked at several years ago.

Dry firing even off the bench, though I didn't do it the other day, it took me about 5 rounds to get good with the 5 pound trigger again..., can make a really big difference.

With optics if the crosshairs move, IE more than a tiny bit, and especially if they don't just quiver and end up where they were when you pulled the trigger, if they jump to the side even 1/4 inch, its likely a bad shot. Maybe not bad vs impact, but it certainly could have been better.

I don't have issues with the SS scopes, have one on the 50 bmg. Not my idea of percectly clear or a low light scope, but its been repeatable dealing with the recoil over a number of years now.

And if scopes don't track right, generally if you go 10 past whatever you were putting on and take 10 back off again, IE moving it 6 up, go 16 up, 10 down, you'll be ok as it tends to get rid of the thread slop...

Same with non pinned AR iron rear sights.... flip the sight against the sping and detent especially on elevation changes to make sure it hasn't drug/hung up...

I always like to dry fire practice.

When I was a kid and was involved in NRA small-bore the retired Sgt. Major that ran the program would have us dry fire with a nickel balanced on the barrel until we could consistently do it without the nickel falling off.

This is my official entry for now. I shot these groups using my AR with a Noveske lower and a Daniel Defense upper. The barrel is a 20 inch Bushmaster with a hard chrome bore. The barrel is not floating.
The ammunition used was some of the cheapest stuff that I had laying around. It is corroded and dented and came that way from the factory. I probably would not have shot it from an expensive barrel, but it still shoots good.
I'm satisfied considering how little I shoot ten shot groups. Sixty three year old eyes tend to blur things out if you stare at it very long. Mine tends to go around shot three. The scope is a new Burris 4.5x14 with an ocular that you can focus. I haven't yet.
This is a great thread and a fun project. Thanks!



The groups and specs. Average group size 1.514.


The Rifle


The range. Yes, I know, same range as Mathsr. Same dog too.

Rost,
Thats good shooting whether you like it or not. Something to work towards for all of us.

Scenarshooter,
I knew GAP's would shoot but daaannnggg. Thats a laser, good shooting and congrats, I think you will be in first place for a while.

TWR,
Nice shooting, looking better and better.

348srfun,
Not bad at all considering the non-floated chrome lined barrel. Really good in my opinion. If yall would mow the grass out there it wouldn't deflect my shots as much and I could be up there with scenarshooter.


Current Rankings:

Optics:
1) scenarshooter: .475 MOA (page 6)
2) jimmyp: 1.085 MOA (page 5)
3) TWR: 1.110 MOA (page7)
4) Certifiable: 1.155 MOA (page 5)
5) wareagle700: 1.246 MOA (page 1)
6) BGunn: 1.265 MOA (page 2)
7) 348srfun: 1.449 MOA (page 7)
8) tex_n_cal: 1.461 (page 5)
9) jimmyp: 1.537 MOA (page 5)
10) fredIII: 1.736 MOA (page 5)
11) Formidilosus: 1.787 MOA (page 4)
12) Mathsr: 1.928 MOA (page 4)
13) wareagle700: 1.968 (page 5)
14) TWR: 2.308 MOA (page 1)

Iron Sights:
1) rost495: 199-8x / 1.351 MOA (page6)
2) wareagle700: 167-0x / 3.320 MOA (page 1)

Wareagle700, 358's are fun and I like shooting mine but 348's are more fun and I like shooting them more, especially the O&U. 348srfun is the name. Our mower died a long and painful death. Working on another one, probably after the Blade Show.

this has been a lot of fun, I am thinking of shooting it with M855 and a Colt with an aimpoint.

And when you start to get really good, you realize how many mistakes you can still make and not knock the penny or nickel off.... IE its a great starting point, but once you keep it on, you are not done working with your issues.

Yeah, I will buy & use once fired stuff for my AR's & will also use it in my bolt gun, but for the very best loads in the bolt gun, I prefer to start with virgin brass fire formed in that chamber for subsequent reloading.

Just me, YMMV.

MM

nothing wrong with virgin brass. At all.

I shoot a couple of wildcats and new brass is well undersize anyway, so its all fireformed again after sizing, and then can go to neck size only for a while in some good ARs.

only issue I've seen after sizing to my chambers, is if it was fired in a saw or such with sloppy chamber you may be ICS early...

where have all the Mini 14 aficionado's gone? Come on guys we won't beat you up that bad! Just post a couple of 10 shot groups with XM193, we can blame it on the ammo!!!

Lets put em in a mini14 group all alone for score/size parts... that should make it more even.

I could give mine a whirl...assuming I can find all the parts for it

I just wish more people would shoot.

I just barely beat a thunderstorm so my pictures are not ideal but I got the minimum to get this done. I'm going to re-shoot the challenge with irons tomorrow and I'll update the pictures.

1) Picture of rifle and setup (no pic of setup due to race to beat the rain but I shot prone at the firing line off bipod with Red Tac 1/2Pint rear bag):


2) Picture of 100 yard range (this picture is old, the berms are now on the left side but I will take a new pic tomorrow when I shoot the iron sight group):



3) Picture of target (optics) or targets (irons) with 20 rounds through them. (place calipers or ruler laying over one group for reference): I shot the target on the right first, the target on the left second


4) Description of rifle and ammo used.
Rifle: Barnes Precision BPM-15 with new BP 18" mid to replace the 16" I wore out. I took the A2 hider off of it and installed a BE Myers hider I had on my bench. Only other mod from stock is the Geissele SSA trigger.

Optic: Bushnell Elite Tactical 6-24x50mm G2 in LaRue mount that one of my guys bought recently and I have for testing right now

Bipod: Atlas

Ammo: I had 44 rounds of 69gn Nosler CC loaded over 24gn RL15 in Federal brass, lit by CCI BR-4. These were rounds I had left over from the first barrel I had on this gun. Never shot them before today in this barrel. They hit just low and left of where the 77gn bullets it's zeroed for hit. I will use the last 24 to zero the irons on the gun and shoot the iron sight target with a sling.

5) For optics, list your group sizes and the average. For Iron sights, please list the group size and score:

Group 1: .820" or .783 MOA
Group 2: .895 or .854 MOA
Average: .858" or .819 MOA

I'll be shooting at least two more sets of targets.
One going from a 7 power to a 20 power, and one with iron sights which should be interesting.
I just had cataract surgery in both eyes !!

Right now the wind has been 10 to 20 mph for days.
Can't even get out fishing on Lake Erie

I'm gonna shoot irons too but I'm in Oklahoma and we're getting flooded again. Lake Texhoma is gonna go over the spillway this weekend in spite of them releasing water. I was at Eufaula Lake dam yesterday watching the water being released from the locks and the water is still 15' above normal.

We've had over 14" of rain this month and more in other places.

I broke out the Ruger Mini 14 today and mounted a new scope on it. While sighting the rifle in I had one two shot group that measured less than .5 inches and a three shot group that measured 5/8 inch. I was feeling good. I then hung the official targets and shot the first three shots of my official, for the record, ten shot group from a Mini 14. First three shots of the ten were slightly less than 4 inches. I thought I would save the rest of that ammo for my AR and remove the scope from the Ruger. My brother reminded me that they were designed to be like a M1 Carbine not like an AR. They sure are handy.

LOL, thats why 3-5 shot groups, unless you have multiples, don't tell you much...

I have a .334 5 shot group from a friends 338 wind mag. Its a fluke, though the gun is generally a reliable MOA rifle... and I have a kill with it at 802 yards...

PS, how is a mini 14 more handy than an AR....?

I don't really know how to explain it. It is kind of like the difference in rabbit hunting all day with a recurve bow and a compound. Compound just isn't fun to carry. That doesn't even speak to the fact that both of my AR's are heavier than my Garand.

I find the height of the AR action and the high comb of the AR to be ungainly. The mini handles more like a traditional firearm.

I guess I'm so used to them, I can't find a difference.

I think I could have at one time, shot an AR in my sleep. My bolt guns felt funny.

Of course the M1A always felt nice.

RE weight, thats all in the build, you can get em pretty light.

The high comb, is nothing, as long as the stock and sights all match, at least to me anyway.

Interesting input as to how we all see things though.

off to cut firewood.

That's easy to fix. Just put a light weight barrel on one of them.

I gotta say that I much prefer the pistol grip and mag release on the AR platform over those of the mini, though.

I have an 18 inch barrel on one of them. Everything else is probably making it heavy. It is probably just me and the fact that I like classic guns. A 9 pound bolt action is not heavy to me but a nine pound AR is. Scott, I am just the opposite. I like the location of the Mini 14 Mag release and really like the location of the safety. The pistol grip on the AR and I don't get along. We just tolerate each other.

This was posted by 348srfun on my brother's computer

Sorry for the Mini 14 side track. All you AR guys, carry on. Lets see some more of those MOA groups. I'm going to turn in some Iron sight targets soon as I learn to shoot again. I'd shoot my Beowulf but it is too expensive to shoot more than 3 shot groups.

... We found that out in the Carl Ross postal shoot. Didn't we?

What did I miss? LOL.

In the day I did every postal I ran across as we shot a lot.

These days I doubt I shoot 30 shots a year, maybe less. A lot of difference there. In the day we shot over 10,000 a year of just 223.... not counting cross training other rounds.

RE pistol grip, ya know they make a few different ones.... and the difference between pistol and mini is difference between a high and low elbow position, trying to shoot an AR with a high elbow doesn't work, shooting a mini or M1A with low doesn't work eitehr. IE very well.

No, 10 shots is not a statistically relevant or valid sample; you would need a 30 shot sample, or a series of 10 shot samples combined into one group, to be a statistically valid sample & to be statistically representative of the variability of the system; in this case, the system is the gun, the ammo, the sights & the shooter & I guess you could throw in the weather/wind, especially with a 22 caliber.

IMO, there should be a class for the 22's & another class for anything larger.



I'll eventually get around to shooting.......have 3 guns & will shoot at least 2. There's no time limit on this that I know of.

MM

The 'excuses' are life. Some have time, some make time, some don't.

For me, I'm more dedicated to the fire/ems pager to help folks out, than I am to shooting a postal or other match at this point in my life. Its my time of life to give back.

Others are in stages like we used to be in, shoot almost every other day if not more often regardless unless weather...

otehrs are in other parts of life, kids, family, building houses, careers etc...

Would be lovely if in a every 24 hours God said, this one particular hour is for shooting, and nothing else.

BTW we shoudl get Denton in here, isn't there some numerical theory that uses 7 as statistical?

Regardless, to me, to mean aything your gun has to be repeatable, and I'm not sure of what mine do until they've been shot quite a bit for at least a year.

I have deer rifles that may never get shot enough to become statistical....

I printed out the targets, was hoping to shoot them today. Given the wind that's not likely. This eve or tomorrow hopefully.

That depends on the difference in your standard deviations. It takes a sample size of 30 to move from the T table to the Z table, but that does not mean you cannot achieve statistically significant results with a smaller sample.

Depends on how accurate you want to be.........

With enough 10 shot groups & a consistent enough SD to validate a normal distribution of the 10 shot groups, yes, but the single 30 piece sample solves any if's and's or but's.

YMMV.

MM

ten is a convenient sample size. Take the total variation in 10 pieces of data, double the range of those 10 pieces, and you have very close to ± 3 sigma

You guys make this way more complicated than it is. As long as critters die when I pull the trigger, I'm happy.

And they have!

And the rules state 2 10 shot groups, why doesn't matter.

I tried again today and followed the challenge with some load development. Either my barrel doesn't like 75/77gr pills, doesn't like Reloader 15, or I am just a 1.5-2 MOA shooter. I know I had good trigger control and a natural POA, I just can't get this barrel to group good for me with the heavy bullets. Maybe Frank White will take it back and check it out??? Overall, rough day today with the black guns.

On a birghter note, here is a group from my Sako TRG at 400 yards. Just a hair under 1/2 MOA with a 178 BTHP moving 2750fps.

My last barrel would absolutely not shoot 77gn Nosler or 77gn SMK but would shoot great with 75gn Hornady OTM bullets. Also shot great with 69gn bullets, either Sierra or Nosler (which by they way it's time to update the leader board). It didn't matter what powder, charge, primer, etc. it would not shoot the 77gn bullets better than about 1.5 MOA and often shot them closer to 2 MOA.

Well, I will try Varget and TAC next before I look at replacing it. If it won't shoot the 75/77's its not worth having as thats 90% of what I load for .223.

Current Rankings:

Optics:
1) scenarshooter: .475 MOA (page 6)
2) KeneticPerformance: .819 MOA (page 8)
3) jimmyp: 1.085 MOA (page 5)
4) TWR: 1.110 MOA (page7)
5) Certifiable: 1.155 MOA (page 5)
6) wareagle700: 1.246 MOA (page 1)
7) BGunn: 1.265 MOA (page 2)
8) 348srfun: 1.449 MOA (page 7)
9) tex_n_cal: 1.461 (page 5)
10) jimmyp: 1.537 MOA (page 5)
11) fredIII: 1.736 MOA (page 5)
12) Formidilosus: 1.787 MOA (page 4)
13) Mathsr: 1.928 MOA (page 4)
14) wareagle700: 1.968 (page 5)
15) TWR: 2.308 MOA (page 1)

Iron Sights:
1) rost495: 199-8x / 1.351 MOA (page6)
2) wareagle700: 167-0x / 3.320 MOA (page 1)

I was hoping to shoot it today, too, but the wind was cranking. Couldn't fish, either.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/279218_.html

There is a reason they make full 7 twist barrels.... anything like a 75/77 has always shot much better for me in the 7s. Before going to 90s, we shot 7.7s for a while, and then moved to full 7 twist and life was much better, especially at longer distances. The 6.5 twists we ended up with shot the 77s ok too.

4 inch square plate, seems fairly tough steel from the looks of it. Nice group. Answers your own question if you can shoot or not....

Once you know you shoot good, when a gun doesn't group, its the gun. You know when you screw up, at least I do.

Like the coach said, call that shot( meaning tell me where you think you hit, from what you saw when the gun went off, so he can understand why the bullet hit where it did) .... Ummm ( my shot call instead of saying mid ring 9 at 10 oclock) ... Come BAAACCCKKKKKKK

I'm glad the revered Rick Jamison thinks a 10 shot gropu of 1.5 inches is a good group. I don't think it is at all.

Of course I also think that a lot of supposed .5 moa guns are actually more like MOA when it comes down to reality.

my thinking as well, this barrel shoots 55 grain VMax bullets, but it sucked with 77 and 75 grain bullets. I shot the match with 55 grain bullets.

That plate pictured above is actually a 8" plate. The group looks bigger because of the paint missing. It might be tough to tell from the pics but there's 2 hits to the left and 3 about 2" to the right.

The barrel I have is a 18", 7 twist, Douglas from Compass Lake Engineering. I know it's not a top shelf cut rifled barrel but I figured it would at least shoot MOA with match handloads. I'll try some different powders before I start calling though. I dont claim to be an expert marksman by any means, especially with gas guns, but this barrel just doesn't seem to like what I'm doing.

Then your results are similar to mine with Douglas. Even though others have had really good luck with them, evidently i've managed to buy 3 lemons from them, and I won't ever again.

I remember you saying that. My experience with Douglas has been good, I hope it continues. I pulled the barrel this morning and reinstalled with a lower torque value. Originally it took 85 ft/lbs to get the nut to align. I lapped the face of the receiver a little more to get the nut to align at 55 ft/lbs today so maybe that did something. I also bedded the extension to the upper with a little loctite. I know its put together right, I know my loads are consistent, and I have no doubts about my optic and mounts holding up. If I can't get it to shoot, I will look at replacing it somehow.

I like mine around 40 but had a Colt HBAR once that would shoot at well over 100 ft lbs. I broke the upper getting it off. Put a new upper on it with the free float tube and it shot the same. Figured floating it and loosening the nut would've helped but it didn't.

I've had good luck with Douglas barrels but mine have all been #1 contoured bolt guns. Then again, I don't shoot like Jeff does and probably couldn't tell the difference between what he calls good and bad.

I feel you. All I shoot are 75/77gn bullets for DMM out of that gun. I use the 69gn bullets some for shooting alts on my home range as it only goes to 300yds. If a barrel won't shoot the 75/77gn bullets I don't want it. I nearly scrapped that last barrel when it wouldn't shoot the 77gn SMK or NCC but once I figured out it would shoot the 75gn Hornady OTM I just ran with it.

Another load to try:

Just did the ladder testing with this powder a week or two ago. Previously I had not tried it. I think it is a little on the fast side but at that velocity I am getting a properly gassed combination with pretty good precision and deviation.

I run mine up to around 35-45 generally. Then I cut off or whatever, to keep it there and get the gas tube through... generally a hole or a star "tit" needs grinding or nipping.

I don't THINK you can affect accuracy at the chamber area, but I do think on skinny tubes you could torque a flash hider or such tight enough to affect things.

After all I think you'd break the upper being its AL, before you 'squeeze" steel.

I have a guy I really trust, that is learning to rebarrel. When he is happy, I'll have one more go at a douglas possibly. But the last I had done was by Mickey, and every other gun he did was easy sub moa with Rock tubes, the one douglas is barely MOA if that just depending. Granted I've only tried 4 different powders and 3 different bullets, with weight sorted fire formed brass, but it just drove me nuts enough that it sits in the safe and I don't shoot it.

That's enough variants........good barrels aren't too finicky, IME. Bad barrels that are & maybe only like one load don't last long with me.

I've had good luck with Douglas CM barrels on bolt guns.

MM

What's the bullet number on that 75 gr OTM Hornady? I've not used it but it must have a different ogive than the A-Max, right?

I may need to give it a try.

I have a new gun & I'm just waiting on the scope & the Dyna Bore Coat to get here this week so I can break it in & start testing.

Planning to start with 77 gr NCC's & these powders:

H-4895, 8208, RL-15, AR Comp & MR-2000.

I use the 1st 3 now in both AR platforms & my bolt guns, but the last 2 are new for me & I may need to try a different bullet if the NCC's don't work as planned.

Thanks,

MM

Iv'e actually found the 75 bthp OTM ones to be more picky than 77smks.

BUT if you back the speed down, towards 2500ish or under 2600ish for sure, from a 20 inch tube they tend to shoot ok.

They were enough cheaper we ran them for practice for some time, and then went to 68s for all 200/300 yard practice with the 75 amax for prone slow practice due to cost vs the good bullets.

They were good enough, but never stellar.

These are the Hornady .224, 75gn OTM that I am currently shooting.

Thank You, that's the one I thought it was.

You are seating them to fit the magazine & not singly loading them, right?

I may give them a try.

MM

I know I'm not the one... but I loaded those at 2.250 OAL for years with never an issue...

FWIW loaded the 75 amax the same, as John Burns has done since... no issues either... needs 100 percent full case though on that one to be safe.

Info from you is always welcome, rost.

Yeah, the A-Max is a little problematic..........I use it in my bolt guns where I seat it out where it belongs, but I don't use it at all in an AR at that mag length.

MM

I shoot everything at mag length because I shoot practical matches.

When you run out of things to play with... crank that seater down, and play.. but the charge has to be adjusted as you are loosing case capacity...

I dusted off my other 5.56 today. It is a humble Armalite that originally wore a 16" tube, that was quite inaccurate. I then bought & installed one of Armalite's 20" heavy barrels. It shot extremely well, but I have not shot it a lot until recently. It's now wearing a 16x42 SS SWFA. The load is the 77 TMK, this time over 24.5gr of Varget and Federal 205M primers. I'm pretty happy with it:

The setup



The range (yes the same one as last time, I was even at the same bench)



I was pleased with the group. I suspect this rifle can outshoot me without much trouble. The barrel is a 1 in 8" twist, but it still did well with the 77 Sierras:



First group .77", 2nd one .87", average .82".

I shot the same load in the Daniel Defense Mk12. It did slightly better than last time, but I still need to work on my technique with it.

Nice

But be careful with federal primers you are begging for a slam fire there!

what primer do you prefer for Varget? I have plenty of CCI 41's

Varget, hands down CCI BR4 is the best partner in 223 cases I've ever found with Varget. 41s won't be bad either as they and 450s are almost the same IIRC, but the BR4s are a more picky lot. IE higher standards.

I got back out to give this another run today in hopes of improving a bit.
Rifle was the same stag model 6 i shot before and the range was the same as well although I didn't think to take another pic of the range. Shot some older PMC ammo I had loaded with sierra 52 gr HPBT.
Gun seemed to like the lighter bullet just fine and there was a slight improvement over last go-round. I need to keep practicing obviously as those "flyers" aren't helping at all!


1.122+.836=1.958/2=.979

I just wish I had a black gun now. I'd shoot with you guys. Looks like you are having a blast!!!!! Damn.. You guys have your work cut out if you want to keep up with Pat. Certifiable looks like he has his chit together too and Rost is too damn modest: Damn good with open sights.. Good shooting!!!

very nice shooting! I am curious about the mark 12? How is it shooting or not shooting?

also Molon has I guess been redeemed at M4 and he has tested the Bravo BHF barrel and the Noveke FN barrel. I think I (mostly) tested the DD chromed pencil barrel here with a lowly 6 power scope, I am going to shoot it again as I was distracted in my second group with it. My next chromed barrel will be another DD.

Great shooting all, and its great people are shooting!!!

Site staff tends to get upset and ban people when their favorite flavor AR gets a bad review. ARF and M4 have been known to run off some really really knowledgeable people over hurt feelings. BCM is one of those "protected brands."

The best 10-shot group with the Mk12 has been 1.25" at 100 yards. That's with the same load of 77gr TMK's.

For a mid-weight carbine, that's not bad at all. Had I stuck to a 5 shot group it might be 3/4" or less.

I plan to keep working with it as I suspect it will do better, much of it a matter of my technique. I changed out the cute DD stock and installed a Magpul STR. It has about 200 shots through it and the nitrided 1 in 7" barrel may still be breaking in. Some further load tuning is indicated as well.

If TMK's actually will expend on game, the 1 in 7" barrel would be the place to shoot them. I got a doe with it last year, using 65gr SGK's, so I may use it again.

Certifiable.

Are you calling those fliers? If you are not, it could be the ammo or the conditions.

Just saying. For the guts of the group, seems you know how to shoot groups.

If you are calling them, then its less of an issue because you know whta the problem is.

Jeff

They'll expand, but maybe too much. Compared to the 65gr GK (which I really like) they seem a bit more explosive.

These were fired into water-filled milk jugs from a 16" barrel, with the penetration listed below:
62gr TSX - 3 jugs
65gr SGK - 2-1/2 jugs
69gr TMK - 1-1/2 jugs

looks too expansive to me.

Of course 77 and 75 bthp otm have always worked just fine.

Thanks jeff...I wouldn't say I "called" them but you kinda know when it just didn't feel right ya know..? On the smaller of my groups the 9 o'clock flyer was of course shot #10...
I am very pleased with the Stag tho and am sure with some more ammo experimenting and practice I can shave those down a bit more.

The first time I took it out with various bullet weights I shot maybe 10 5 shot groups and 3 of them JUST shaded .500 so I know I'm the weak link..The gun can hang

This is a 65gr SGK, recovered from a spike buck (I said doe incorrectly earlier). About 80 yards, the shot broke the onside humerous, gouged a chunk out of the heart, and stopped in the offside hide, with the jacket & core separated, but together. The final weight is 27.6 gr. The buck only went about 30 yards & piled up.

tahts failure IMHO, but it worked... 223 and deer is the land of TSX IMHO for safety.

But the 63 smp was fall back years ago and worked about like your picture often.

I wouldn't consider that failue at all. The bullet did exactly what it was supposed to do, and the deer died quickly.

When the jacket seperates from the core, the question of what if, if you have to have angled penetration, a shoulder is hit, even worse if at an angle and so on.


If so, you have to limit the shot animal sizes and shot placement.

If thats acceptable then its fine, if not then a better bullet, IMHO, needs to be used.

I"ve shot lots of stuff with varmint HPs, meaning deer, you have to be very picky about shots, but you know that going in. Varmint bullets are made to come to pieces, hunting bullets typically are not and should not be IMHO. Retained weight for comfort should be at least 50% if not more for me anyway.

So as long as you are aware, life is fine.

Certifiable, need complete post with pics for your entry.

Current Rankings:

Optics:
1) scenarshooter: .475 MOA (page 6)
2) tex_n_cal: .783 MOA (page 10)
3) KeneticPerformance: .819 MOA (page 8)
4) jimmyp: 1.085 MOA (page 5)
5) TWR: 1.110 MOA (page7)
6) Certifiable: 1.155 MOA (page 5)
7) wareagle700: 1.246 MOA (page 1)
8) BGunn: 1.265 MOA (page 2)
9) 348srfun: 1.449 MOA (page 7)
10) tex_n_cal: 1.461 (page 5)
11) jimmyp: 1.537 MOA (page 5)
12) fredIII: 1.736 MOA (page 5)
13) Formidilosus: 1.787 MOA (page 4)
14) Mathsr: 1.928 MOA (page 4)
15) wareagle700: 1.968 (page 5)
16) TWR: 2.308 MOA (page 1)

Iron Sights:
1) rost495: 199-8x / 1.351 MOA (page6)
2) wareagle700: 167-0x / 3.320 MOA (page 1)

anyone who knows anything is reasonable regards what they do, the idiots that get in trouble are those that shoot a 55 grain varmint bullet into the arse and then talk about how piss poor the 5.56 performs when in truth their B.S. is just a big ego with the inability to remain a student of reality.

Good shooting folks.

TWO , 10 shot groups under MOA now, meaning 20 shots under MOA for a group basically.

Thats really impressive when you think about it, from a gas gun, that most folks thought was a joke years ago.

And the best part, already a .5 moa group basically as the top group.

Very impressive.

Jimmy, you have more faith in folks than I do. but my wife says I"m an old grouch anyway.

A bullet that looses its jacket, and goes to piecse and retains less than 50% is not what you need if you make a mistake IMHO. But if you know what you are doing, a 22lr is more than enough for most deer/pigs. SO it does depend on knowledge.

Wareagle, hopefully these will complete my post but if not its all good...
Rifle is stag model 6 with 1/8 twist and was shooting some older factory PMC ammo loaded with sierra 52gr. HPBT..
Scope is 16x SWFA in SWFA SSALT mount.

Range was same San Leandro rifle and pistol range 100 yards..

Yep, thanks!

To keep from having to edit each line in the rankings I will keep up with places 1-10 and the rest will be listed below in order of group size. This just makes it faster to keep up with them.

I hope to take another crack at this over the weekend.

Current Rankings:

Optics:
1) scenarshooter: .475 MOA (page 6)
2) tex_n_cal: .783 MOA (page 10)
3) KeneticPerformance: .819 MOA (page 8)
4) Certifiable: .935 MOA (page 10)
5) jimmyp: 1.085 MOA (page 5)
6) TWR: 1.110 MOA (page7)
7) Certifiable: 1.155 MOA (page 5)
8) wareagle700: 1.246 MOA (page 1)
9) BGunn: 1.265 MOA (page 2)
10) 348srfun: 1.449 MOA (page 7)
tex_n_cal: 1.461 (page 5)
jimmyp: 1.537 MOA (page 5)
fredIII: 1.736 MOA (page 5)
Formidilosus: 1.787 MOA (page 4)
Mathsr: 1.928 MOA (page 4)
wareagle700: 1.968 (page 5)
TWR: 2.308 MOA (page 1)

Iron Sights:
1) rost495: 199-8x / 1.351 MOA (page6)
2) wareagle700: 167-0x / 3.320 MOA (page 1)

I sure hope I can shoot again... soon... but its rain and flood forecasts this weekend again. But I'm not complaining. We've needed the rain for so many years now, a good flood or 5 ain't gonna get me complaining.

damn I may have to as well!

To be fair to the Gameking I pictured, I did make a bit of a mistake, since I planned to put it tight behind the shoulder. I was too tight and caught the leg bone. Had it missed the bone it may well have exited on the offside. And the expansion would have been more inside the chest cavity.

I might have to break out an AR-10 this weekend. A new barrel arrived in the mail.

Good to know on the shoulder issue, but what happens if its a 225 pound buck, in rut, and you miss the ribs and hit the shoulder?

I had a 300 wtby shooting the 180 nosler partitions(how I learned they are NOT the bullet for the 300, use the 200 partition instead or better yet a barnes) when I shot a similar buck, big, heavy, in rut, big neck... Shot him in the neck at about 125 steps. I had no other target. Bullet stopped on THIS side of the spine. But it hit hard enough to break the neck at least. So I could grab my pistol and shoot him again....

Just saying, when dealing wiht small rounds, you shoudl be EXTRA careful on bullet choice.

Here is a couple of groups shot with my Mini-30 and some Remington 7.62X39 full jacket ammo. I left in the initial shot, which is usually found most anywhere on the target with no apparent relationship to the following shots. In this case it was almost in the other group. Y'all just have no idea how proud I am that all 20 shots are on the paper... if not on the correct target. There was a time when they wouldn't have been.

This rifle started out shooting 8 to 10 inch groups @ 100 yards and is now down to the neighborhood of 3 inch groups if you could throw out the first shot.

The Mini-30 isn't much good for anything I have found because the one shot that is really unpredictable is the first one out the spout.

The Mini-30 with Leupold VX3 2.5 to 8


The range...


The target... Group 1 on the right 4.292 inches, group 2 is 2.492 for an average of 3.4 inches.

Mathsr,

So that's how yall prepare for the Blade Show? Hard at work I see...........

Glad to see a Mini make it into the challenge! Better than I would have guessed.

Wareagle, epoxy has to harden sometime….

Heck that's better than the AK I owned. And frankly I have an AR that never did shoot any better, until I rebarreled it.

Great! Without that first shot its not a bad shooting gun!. What did you have done to it?

It says a lot about the Mini-30 when you get excited about a 3 inch 10 shot group with a first shot flier. It wasn't just one thing that I did to get the group size down, but several. I suspect that all were trying to overcome a barrel that is too light to have the operating rod, stock and gas block all hanging on it and bouncing around at each shot.

1. Glass bed the action.
2. Bed the fore arm into the gas block.
3. Addition of an UltiMAK hand guard.
4. Addition of an Accu-Strut LT.

All of the changes made to the rifle made an improvement to the accuracy of the rifle without hurting the reliability. It never has failed to fire or function.

If I had to do just one that I thought would affect the accuracy the first thing I would do would be bed the fore arm tip into the gas block. This was done by glassing shims to the fore arm metal until as tight a fit as possible was obtained that would still allow the dis-assembly of the rifle. It was the least expensive change, took the least amount of time to do and I think made the most difference in my rifle.

The second would be glass the action. That action/stock fit is really loose and has to move around a lot when the rifle is fired. I doubt seriously that it is in the same place in the stock after each stock. With glass bedding it will be closer. This was not easy to do.

Next would be the addition of the UltiMak hand guard and last would be the Accu-Strut.Both of these serve to stiffen the barrel although I'm not sure how much. While they add a good bit of weight, they both made a positive difference in the group size and that tells me that the barrel needs some kind of support. Both are easy to install and mostly just bolt on. If you follow the directions, it won't be a problem.

If you look at a Ruger Mini 14/30 you realize that the slide is not really attached to anything and doesn't ride on any thing like a guide rod. It just goes back and fourth in a huge channel in the stock and can't get out because the barrel is blocking it from the top. The first thought that popped into my mind when I saw this is it will probably never fail to function, but why bother with a rifled barrel?

I never have been able to figure out the first shot flier...Probably has to do with the fact that the first round is chambered by hand and the rest are chambered by the violent operating of the action.

While I'm not a gunsmith and did the work on this rifle my self, I had the close supervision of a good gunsmith keeping me on the straight and narrow. He has built Mini-14's that were true minute of angle rifles. He did it by replacing the barrel with a heavy barrel and making the necessary changes to the gas block so that the barrel didn't have to be reduced in size. He told me that he wouldn't do another one, even for himself.

Both the Ruger Mini-30 and Mini-14 are screaming out for a barrel that is heavier between the action and the gas block and a gas block that is big enough to handle it with out reducing the size of the barrel.

[img:left][/img]

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[img:left][/img]
69gr Black Hills MKHP


69gr Nosler Custom Comp



Stag Model 6 Varminter, 16x42 PolloLoco FF

These were the best two groups at about 21.7mm or .85" OD (appx. .63" CTC) but a couple others came close. 75 and 77 gr. holes were the ugliest - refurb Black Hills and TAC Match. It was a bit breezy out.

Nice shooting, awesome rifle Fiddy!!

Thanks! I won't be complaining...

Stag makes a good gun!

Good shooting but I am a little confused. Is this an entry or were you just testing loads? This challenge is deigned for the shooter to go out and fire two 10 shot groups and post the results. You post makes it sounds like you fired multiple 10 shot groups and just picked the two best for your entry.

From the rules:
"Scoped rifles will fire two 10 shot groups at the target listed below (different targets are ok, just make sure both groups are on the same piece of paper)"

yep if you can pick your best groups that is not what the rest of us did. I fired 2 10 shot groups with 2 rifles and posted what I shot. In one case a yellow fly was landing on my head while shooting and I posted that group as part of my submission.

On the other hand I had swapped scopes on the rifles and this was my second trip to the range as I did not follow the rules the first time either. I really want one of those 16 power scopes now for things like this.

I have had my eye on one of the SWFA scopes to use for this type of thing, load development, .22lr shooting, etc.... Basically a dedicated range scope that I can swap around.

http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-20x42-Tactical-30mm-Riflescope-P502.aspx

RE load testing, don't go above fixed 16 imho. Some days with mirage thats almost too much for me.

I ran a variable, 8-32 for testing, could go high for shooting in good conditions or night, but often during the summer I had to back off to lower X

I know F class shooters deal with high X though... I just never got used to it since we rarely shot optics.

Ah I see. I did not follow the rules and am disqualified. I will have to try again another day...

I shot 10 rounds of each ammo I brought to the range after sighting it in. The groups I posted were of the two best performers. Then I shot much more

Just a heads-up if you're thinking of ordering, do so well in advance. As of a couple weeks ago all their fixed 10, 16, and 20x scopes were on back order.

I initially had ordered a 16 and a 10, but when they told me I'd have to wait several weeks for the 10 I opted for a second 16 and it was their last one.

not really disqualified, but if you picked the best, thats not fair.

We could shoot all day and pick the two best.

Really good shooting though all in all!

Go at it for a pair of groups with the same ammo and you'll do fine.

Yeah next time

I ordered another LaRue mount for my 3.5-10 MK4 so now I have an extra scope for range use.

I really like the super chicken scopes and especially the mil quad reticle. I put mine on my SPR and need to shoot it

Judging by the looks of the last groups, you and your rifle will do just fine... I'm wanting to build one just like yours.

I guess I just can't shoot worked up some loads with Lever powder and the 55 NBT load work looked better than this but...

18" Noveske SPR, 55 gr NBT, RP brass, Leverevolution powder, CCI 41 primer, 10x Super Chicken scope in LaRue mount.
the gun

the range

the results

I have some 77 gr Tipped SMK's coming in, the NCC's haven't been the most accurate bullet and all I had left were these 55 gr NBT's. I bought a few thousand while on closeout a while back.

May try it again, I certainly need the practice.

looks good to me. I think we need one of those 16X super chickens to be competitive.

10X will shoot tiny groups..

Thats MOA accuracy more or less, for 10 shot groups, I still say most ARs are capable of, its not bad.

Should compare to most folks deer rifle groups for same rules!

Well, 10x is the biggest I've got, so likely it won't be good enough when I do get around to shooting. No doubt a 16x is an advantage.

Waiting on the Dyna Bore Coat to do the new barrel, then get it broken in........got 6 load variants loaded for initial testing to see how the new barrel shoots, so it'll be a while yet to see if it's even good enough to shoot with.

MM

The data so far ain't looking like it; the only real "production" gun so far that makes the grade is Fiddy's Stag Varminter..........that gun is guaranteed .5" from the factory& it looks like his measures up.

Scenar Shooters gun in no way, shape, or form resembles a stock AR..........that's a hand built custom by one of the best shops in the country & it's a 6mm, not a .22.

Virtually all of the rest of the stock guns are well over MOA.

Obviously, optics & ammo are other significant variables, besides the shooter..........Scenar Shooter, for example, would shoot well, as would rost495, with anything they were handed, others, probably not so much.

MM

I still disagree, IIRC, the top half of shooters are at or under MOA.

And the rest, no diss intended, may well not be able to shoot well enough, the ammo likely is not totally tuned, and likely have nerves and conditions to deal with when shooting 10 shot groups. If you think that at 100 you can ignore the wind, if there is wind, you are wrong. It can easily add.25/.50 moa to a group if ignored.

I have no clue how to prove it, but I can say that almost any barrel I've messed with, save for one used bushmaster I was given, and one 6.5 twist Pac Nor, have all been MOA or under capable.

if we are looking for .5moa capable then its another game.

And you have to remember, we've had folks here find out they have mount/scope and ammo troubles so far basically. AND that this is not a flat BR test, its not allowing the big rear bags of heavy sand, the big heavy front rests and prefer not to use benches also basically.

FWIW the last 5 years I shot, I had a test upper, and put all new barrels on it. 12X leupold, the test top, had a 3 inch or 4 inch wide floated AL end with a piece of wood on it, that was slick varnished. IE I could find out what the barrels were capable of totally basically with that rig, it was EASY to shoot well. Before I ever put the barrels on my service rifle uppers.

If I had the time I'd be willing to bet that given most any of the none MOA uppers, I could get MOA out of them.

Don't forget we are shooting 10 shot groups, take out the 5 worst of each group, and it changes yet again. No one shoots 10 shot groups, except highpower idiots that shoot 10 shot on the short and up to 22 shot groups mostly...

The bull barreled Armalite indeed was assembled by me, but the barrel and free float tube are available from Armalite; if you order an M15TBN, you'll pretty much have the same thing.

Bull Barrel Armalite

Yes, that's true & as far as I'm concerned, 5 shots determines if a rifle is MOA............but the rules here are 10 & only 4 of 17 so far have been <MOA with 10 shots avg for 2 groups.

But several of the >MOA groups of 10 would likely be <MOA with 5 shots counted.

MM

Actually it's moa for 20 shots that we're trying for but who's counting?

MOA for 20 shots is pretty damn good for any rifle. Let alone an AR 15/black rifle. Good shooting guys!!

Alright I'm headed to the range tomorrow and I'm really gonna try to work this in at lunch. Since I'm a firm believer that it's never too early to start making excuses I'm going to share my "precision rifle" preparation with you.

Step 1-Pull your hunting scope off your deer rifle and install it with some janky rings you found in a drawer. Be sure and level the scope by shouldering it and getting the vertical crosshair lined up with the support bar on your garage door.


Step 2-Thoroughly clean your lenses with your shirttail.


Step 3-Install custom lens covers so the glass will still be crystal clear tomorrow.

Blue tape will keep those lenses MUCH cleaner...

I had Trespassers on my range yesterday...

The rules as stated go way beyond what any and I mean any MFG would consider within their accuracy guarantee. Most only guarantee 3 shot groups while a few, state 5 shot group, it doesn't matter if it only produces 1 5 shot group every 3rd or 4th time...

No where that I have found does anyone guarantee a 10 shot group under .5 or even 1 MOA. The industry standard is 3 shots and custom makers usually 5. And that's with the shooter taken out of the picture, no bi-pods or heavy bags.

Mine are not production guns but guns I have assembled myself, I still say they will shoot better than I do, this contest is both the shooter and the gun, those like Pat and Jeff should be extra proud of their guns and their shooting.

Ran over to the nice covered range at lunch and got everything set up. Then the dump trucks you see on the left showed up and shut me down.


So I had to move from the covered range with concrete benches and padded chairs to this. I used a range bag full of a first aid kit and shotgun shell caddies and a beach towel for my front rest and a wife-made pinto bean rear bag. The raincoat kept most of the crushed granite off / out of me.
*Different rifle in this pic*


The rifle is a Bluedreaux-built upper and lower.
Vltor A5 receiver extension with A5H3 buffer
Geissele S3G trigger
18" rifle gas BCM SS barrel
15" Troy rail
Surefire brake
The scope is a Burris FF2 3-9 in some unknown make rings that are definitely not high enough.


Ammo was Atlanta Arms & Ammo 77grain BTHP.

First group--1 1/4"


Adjusted 10 clicks down and 4 clicks left--1 3/8"


1 4/16 + 1 6/16" = 1 10/16 averaged to 1 5/16", which I believe is 1.31".

Not bad, that's about like my Daniel Mk12. What loads did you shoot?

Atlanta Arms & Ammo 77grain BTHP

that criterion barrel shoots pretty good!

While I continue to say that 77s shoot very well, I also have found you have to find the right "node" for them in the gun. IE all factory 77s might not be so swift.

With faster twist guns, the gold standard to test factory is federal gold medal match 69s IMHO. The brass is throw away though... as is all 223 by FC(not LC)

OR used to alwyas be 25 of Varget CCI BR 4, LC case, 2.250 oal and 69 smks if reloading.

PS low rings can be a bit of a pain and you may be getting parallax, OTOH it tends to force a good stock weld, and thats a plus IMHO.

But thats just my thoughts and you know they are worth only what you pay ... LOL. Like I'd have a clue. LOL.

I have some 69gr TMK's might give them a whirl

Blue,

Looks like someone ran over a traffic cop with a steam roller...but conveniently missed his rifle.

LOL

I've seen it mentioned time and again here that Federal 223 brass is junk, but I don't think I've ever read the reason behind that statement.

I keep seeing that too but I load and shoot it with good precision.

So do I, KP. My buddy gave me a thousand or so once fired federal cases about 15 years ago. I've reloaded the same couple hundred cases a number of times with no issues and good accuracy.

Federal brass is soft and usually you will get loose primer pockets.

The last I loaded, I lost primers it was once fired American Eagle before they started using LC brass.

I had a batch of Federal Gold Match .308 brass, that I reloaded for an AR-10. First reload with a starting load of Varget under 168 SMK's, it was blowing primers out. I stopped and took the ammo home, and rechecked charges. The charge weight was correct, and saw no kernals that didn't look like Varget. Velocities were what they should be as well.

In 223, unless things have changed, in the AR, if you run it to top levels, the primer pockets open since its too soft.

Take your max load and back it off 1 to 1.5 grains and you generally will do fine, that doesn't compete for many in the end though.

And I"ve seen more than a few primers fall out of factory gold medal match ammo on the first firing in an AR

Maybe they've changed it.

Maybe you have some made to LC specs but overrun and stamped FC>

I"m a brass hoarder.... I"ve never saved FC 223 as bad as I want to. I tried it a few times and it was not worht the effort so would trade it back to military for once fired LC, as all they needed was brass weight to get more ammo....

No dis, but I"ve seen folks happy wiht 80s at 2500 fps or less, and at those mild loads even FC brass would likely survive.
You won't win a match with those loads though.

I'm going to have to look closer next time I reload some FC 223 brass. Most of the 223 I shoot is from my short barreled Ruger Compact and consists of a 40 grain V-max, 24.3 grains of AA2200C and whatever SRP I have handy. This load gets 3,375 fps from a 16.5 barrel.

I too think the FC brass is a bit soft and definitely too soft for hot loads. I've de-primed several FC cases at the range and have had primers wind up in the trigger group, magazine, and barrel extension. They are no fun when you are working on decent group. I still save it as its not completely useless, it just gets loaded with mild loads and is trashed when primer pockets are done. I can usually get 3-4 firings out of it.

OH you guys are killin me! Nothing I love more than shooting groups! I sure would love to give this challenge a try! If I can get out to the range anytime soon, I'll give this a try!

I've got nothing fancy, just an off the shelf Colt Hbar! I first bought a Bushmaster Varminter when all the gun rag writers were claiming it's virtues! Couldn't get it to shoot anything moa in it and 5 other guys from the club wanted to buy one and brought out all their pet loads. They couldn't get under an inch with it either. SO, I took it back to my dealer, he refunded the full amount and put it toward the new Colt! Here's my first group with it!



Seems to shoot most anything I feed it very well!

Thanks for the great thread and especially the great challenge! Hopefully soon I'll be able to join in!

Federal .223 brass is very soft. So soft that when you try to trim it the case mouths will tear instead of cut.

This translates into very short primer pocket life. I got a case of once fired from a local LE agency and on the first loading the primer pockets were already loose. With a load a grain below max I had nothing but problems with plenty of primers to fish out of my lower receiver, lodged in the BCG, and trigger group.

I had the same results with brass from Federal American Eagle ammo.

After those experiences when Federal .223 brass hits the ground, that's where it stays.

I don't shoot service rifle but do compete in DMM using an AR15. I shoot 77gn bullets at 2566fps and am pretty competitive unless guys show up with fast 6mm or 6.5mm rifles (you know since every unit fields their designated marksman a 6/6.5mm GAP or JP) since there is not always a MIL division or Open division. I don't load anything to the gills anymore and I am quick to retire brass when problems present. I usually get 4-5 firings in .223 Wylde gas guns.

I load Federal in .30-30 Improved,.308 Win, and 7mm Rem Mag also; used to load it in .280 Improved too. I find it similar to Nosler brass that needs extra prep. I discard Federal and Nosler at 8-10 firings from bolt guns.

If I don't stress it, Federal brass serves me well; kinda like your heart lasts longer when it isn't run at high RPM from nicotine and energy drinks.

I went and shot rats today !

Carry on. If it works for you, good enough. Thats always the case.

My goal was that my equipment was never the weak link, and my goal was to win the nationals at Perry, not just play around.

Thats why my comment of slow ammo just wont' cut it. And it won't. Not on a national level, it'll leave you an x or a point short at some point.

Heck 77s at 600 slow fire prone will leave you in the wake... especially slow ones...

rifle and setup: front on mirror. rear on shirt. pro tip - when resting on magazine, make sure it has consistent pressure from shot to shot



100 yard range (actually 1/2 mile)




target - no calipers but rifle make a suitable yardstick. round count comes up a little short, but definitely minute of hog.




rifle and ammo: dpms panther lr308t. various rounds from 125 to 168 gr. sometimes i have to reload a mag with different ammo. not conducive to accuracy, but... it happens.

i know, i know... there are those that will say i had an unfair advantage using a dpms, and that's fine. go ahead and put me at the top of the leader board with an asterisk by my name if you must. but i'll add he was bobbing and weaving the whole time. note the broken jaw and bottom cutters shot off from a head on charge. try that with a 223!

Where was the hit that stopped the charge located at?

djones,
As much as we all know that DPMS of yours is sub MOA all day long, twice on Sundays, "when you do your part," with ball ammo, from a lead sled, standing on your head, etc....etc.... if you want the top of the leader board you need to refer back to page one and kill some paper. Oh, and you will have your work cut out for you.

Current Rankings:

Optics:
1) scenarshooter: .475 MOA (page 6)
2) tex_n_cal: .783 MOA (page 10)
3) KeneticPerformance: .819 MOA (page 8)
4) Certifiable: .935 MOA (page 10)
5) TWR: 1.083 MOA (page 12)
6) jimmyp: 1.085 MOA (page 5)
7) TWR: 1.110 MOA (page7)
8) Certifiable: 1.155 MOA (page 5)
9) wareagle700: 1.246 MOA (page 1)
10) Bluedreaux: 1.251 MOA (page 12)
BGunn: 1.265 MOA (page 2)
348srfun: 1.449 MOA (page 7)
tex_n_cal: 1.461 (page 5)
jimmyp: 1.537 MOA (page 5)
fredIII: 1.736 MOA (page 5)
Formidilosus: 1.787 MOA (page 4)
Mathsr: 1.928 MOA (page 4)
wareagle700: 1.968 (page 5)
TWR: 2.308 MOA (page 1)

Iron Sights:
1) rost495: 199-8x / 1.351 MOA (page6)
2) wareagle700: 167-0x / 3.320 MOA (page 1)

Rost,
I don't consider what I do playing around unless you consider war a sport and DMM or PRS to be practice. Most of us don't shoot service rifle at Perry; my schedule won't support it. I can get a practical match in here and there and there are no extra points for X's; hits count just like they are an LBG. Brass stays where it lays so I prep and load what I have on hand; I just need it to function and shoot 1MoA not last 10 reloads. I think I have that under control.

You have achieved some good things with your shooting and know a lot but while we need similar things from our guns I can can afford some things you couldn't in your discipline.

Once again if you are happy, keep on keeping on.

This thread is about accuracy, some of that has to do with getting the best you can and as fast as you can push it due to wind.

This has nothing to do with what you use in combat or what works there really. That would bring up a total different set of "rules" to me, and thats not whats going on here.

I simply made some comments that according to many and myself included, FC brass ain't worth glancing at, and that slow speeds won't win matches.

I'm going to continue to attempt to steer folks away from FC brass in 223. Its going to bite them at some point generally spekaing. When there is plenty of other brass out there, why suffer? I can make about anything work, almost including some FC 223 brass, but its not worth the headaches...
FWIW I use FC in a lot of other calibers at times, including our match M1As in 308.....

The play around comment was I was shooting to win, it had NOTHING to do with what you are shooting in competitions.

Having an 800 yard steel range has showed me that you need a high BC bullet moving as fast as you can to cheat the wind. If you're running a 77 at slow speeds, you're leaving a lot on the table and a fast moving stubby bullet will beat you.

I run the 77's at 2650 in my 16" carbine and get plenty of reloads out of my brass.

Bet it ain't FC brass. LOL.

Nope, LC, RP, WW and Lapua, I'm working with some RP now that has around 10 loadings on it and am trying to decide whether to anneal or leave it lay next time. Necks are still tight and primer pockets as well.

if all is good, anneal.. 5 more loadings generally...at least thats what I'd do, and at rough last count I had over 100K cases for 223...

I got a few split necks, maybe 3 out of 50 or so but I have to start keeping better track of my brass. Never worried about it before.

i chased him through the wheat field for hundreds of yards, but he was about to go over the horizon. i had to take the shot at a couple hundred yards or risk losing him. first shot hit solid but he ran. he took several more shots to the body before turning towards me.

he was still pretty far so i waited for him to get a little closer. i watched in amazement of his speed, power and mass. in just seconds, close turned to serious, and i fired 3 shots in his face when he plowed up at 30 paces.

What powder do you use for that? I haven't been able to push 77's that fast from my 16", but maybe your load would do the trick.

Cool, my point was, I know you love the 308 and there are no flies on it, especially for bigger pigs... but if you hit him in the noggin, then a 5.56 WOULD have done the same. LOL.

Man in a way you are lucky with all that trigger time, OTOH I"ve seen how destructive they can be... and that sucks on crops for sure!

Jeff

TAC is what I have been using but I'm testing Lever this weekend hopefully, it beat TAC with 55's.

I might add, my Colt 16" barrel won't do that but the Noveske will. SS is said to be faster for some reason

Ways to get faster... more pressure obviously.

But odd groove rifling, correct chamber including freebore, coating barrel and bullets, using special powders.

All the above gains a bit at a time. Such that you can likely sometimes get 100 fps more than just a standard shot at it.

TAC Imho is not a light bullet powder but a heavy bullet powder and in the day, it was almost as fast as N500 powders in our guns.

Ok second try, this time by the rules:









Same gun: Stag Varminter (Model 6) with SWFA 16x FF
Black Hills 69gr. MKHP
28.3mm = 1.114 OD, .89 CTC left target (fliers were shots 1 and 2)
30.9mm = 1.212 OD, .988 CTC right target

(.89+.988) = 1.878/2= .939

gonna hazard a guess and say you need to dry fire a couple or 5 times before you start shooting for groups if the ones out are 1 and 2 and not called out.

Not bad shooting.

Yeah that occurred to me after I already started shooting...

-Thanks

Fiddy I like that bag for the handgrip! Is that Caldwell as well? Seems like it does pretty good! I got to get me one of those big front bags and a bag for the handgrip.

Thanks - but actually it's more meant to rest the bottom of a standard rifle butt stock. I have a PRS on this gun which has a flat bottom so the rear bag I have (Caldwell) doesn't do it's intended job. However, it lined up perfectly with my front rest and the target in this case. And it was comfortable enough so I went with it.

Jimmy - I find that firmness on both the rear and front bags can make a fair difference in how the gun snugs in, and so I carry a ziplock of the walnut shell innards for ballast. Different stocks snug into the bags differently. I really like the front Caldwell because the gap in the vee where the gun rests is narrow or wide depending upon whether you have it right-side-up or up-side-down.

The rear bag is finicky. If you remove even a small amount of the stuffing, the two vertically extending pouches (pictured at the sides of the grip in my earlier post) empty out, become floppy, and serve no purpose. I would explore other options before getting this type of Caldwell rear, though I have no other suggestion to offer due to lack of experience.

Well, I went out and gave it try today. I normally use a bench rest stand and a rear bag when shooting groups and not using them hurt my ego! I thought they had a good supply of sand bags at the range and planned on using them but all I found was a 2X4 with some carpet nailed to it. This made it impossible to use a rear bag. With that setup and no rear bag this was the best I could do.

2.92" average for the two groups. Not that any of it is good but the one flyer really hurt the average. Looking through the pics I see several went ahead and used a front benchrest stand. I think I'm gonna cheat a little and use one myself when I do this again or at least find some sand bags that'll allow me to support the rifle front and back. If I do a disclaimer will be given

Rifle is a custom Mini 14 with a 3-9X40 Weaver scope. Ammunition are reloads with 77gn Nosler CC bullets. No, it's not an AR-15 but I can usually get MOA or better out of it with 3 and 5 shot groups (with a good rest.)

Rifle and rest


Range


Results


I'm going to try it again soon but with a full set of bags or maybe even a front ADJ. rest and rear bag.

for a mini, thats not bad at all.

That's good shooting in anyone's book. Take away the flyers and you're right in the running! I think I'm gonna try my bulls bag and rest to see what difference the bi-pod makes.

Is that the new model mini or did you have work done to it? Nice gun regardless.

It's a 580 series model. My guess from the serial# is that it was made around 2005-2006. I found it in a pawn shop a few years back for $300. It was sent to Carl over at ASI. He did a fantastic trigger job, a propriatary pin style bedding job and installed a new barrel (18", 1 in 7" twist, Wylde chamber)without notching it for the gas block. The gas block fits the barrel instead of the other way around.

It shoots better than the picture shows but that's the best I could manage off a 2X4. I'm taking blame for the flyers

For me it's just a fun to shoot rifle. I need to find a better rest setup that'll stay within the rules and give it another try. I really need to take my AR out next time too.

Whats a pin style bedding? I"m thinking thats been done a LOT in years past on M1 type guns, but I'm always interested in other theories.

Nice! Glad you shot, and I am sure it will do better with a bag.

I am ordering a bulls bag myself!

y'all really like bulls bags? I would rather use a light front rest, not the heavy BR ones, but a light one with a small bag... I just can't get used to bulls bags, hard to move and position the gun the way you want it to be, at least for me.

Proprietary was probably a bad choice of words on my part but he's the only guy I know of doing it to Mini 14's.

What he does is drill holes in the bottom of the action and in the rifle stock. Then metal pins are affixed in the stock. I imagine it's a 2 part epoxy but I don't know exactly what he uses. When the action goes in the stock the affixed stock pins slide in the new holes in the action holding it firmly in place. The back right pin has a hole drilled in it and is threaded to accept a screw. The charging race way is drilled so this screw sets flush in the race way.

Does sound anything like the way it's done on a M14? If so it kinda makes sense where idea came from. That's about as well as I can describe it on a smart phone. I'll be back in town Saturday and will pop it out of stock and snap a few pics if you'd like to see it.

Thats not like its done on an M14, but I that type of bedding has been done for a long time.

Its not quite what I was expecting. Be cool to see a few pics.

Here are a few pics of the work done.

The action is drilled in 3 locations. 2 are drilled completly through and a pin holds the third one.





The stock is drilled then pins and inserts are installed.



after installed the action is held firmly in place to the stock.


Here is the barrel profile. It finishes out at .750
[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/lucky/stillerxtrifle/large/mini%2014%20dddd%20007.JPG[/img]

Here is another really neat feature he does, the barrel isn't cut to fit the the gas block. The gas block is made to fit the barrel. This one is adjustable which is a nice feature if you use a suppressor. Ruger should adopt this feature on their factory rifles!
[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/lucky/stillerxtrifle/large/mini%2014%20dddd%20008.JPG[/img]

I really like what he did here. He turned down the barrel to accept the factory front sight and then threaded the end.
[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/lucky/stillerxtrifle/large/mini%2014%20dddd%20010.JPG[/img]

I really like this platform and for me it's just fun to shoot which is why I do this. It's just a fun hobby. Off a good rest I can get MOA groups with this rifle, sometimes it'll do even better and for me it's accurate enough to keep it interesting.

Now don't get me wrong here. If I had to choose between a Mini 14 and an AR-15, I'd take the AR every time but I don't and enjoy this along with my AR's.

Not at all what I expected. Those are simply pins and not threaded I'm guessing.

What holds the pins in the stock? Bedding compound?

Why is the action not bedded then also? I haven't taken a mini apart in 35 years so I may totally miss it, but it seems like bedding the action under a bit of tension would really help it out.

His work looks really good though.

I've got that same pin/screw bedding job on my mini-30, work was done by 348srfun though. I don't think I have ever seen "good" 7.62x39 ammo on the shelf though so I won't waste my time shooting it in this challenge.

I haven't shot factory ammo in so long, centerfire that is, that I can't remember actually... well CF shotgun ammo.... but not metallic.

reloaded X39 is more than accurate enough.

Federal soft points from the blue box and Remington green box soft point ammo shot close to MOA from a CZ 527 Carbine I had, FWIW.

I'm guessing the pins are set with compound but don't know. There isn't enough gap between the pin and the stock to really tell what it is. As far as bedding goes, I guess he feels this is sufficient. I've thought about glassbedding also but haven't as of yet. I may give it a try soon.

So, I'm what most people would consider "quasi-honest." And when I read wareagle's rules, I was pretty certain I could game this and get my M&P Flattop into the top 5 if I did enough cherry pickin'. This rifle is bone stock except for a two-stage RRA trigger.

But (kudos to wareagle) that wasn't really possible without blatantly lying. Which my religion does not allow.

Right out of the gate I shot two 10 shot groups on a couple big ass dots I spray painted onto a cardboard box. I was using an ACOG. Average for groups was 2.6. I knew I could do better.



After that, I slapped a 3-10X Weaver and PEPR mount on top. Tried again. Wind was awful. Schit averaged 2.4.





So of course, tried one more time. Calm day. No excuses. 10X magnification.

Averaged 2.3.





Long story short, the 10 shot group (as I have always said) will truly separate the men from the boys. This rifle has shot boat loads of sub-1", three shot groups. The 10 shot group is a KILLAH!



Travis

I'd give you an A for effort..

I"m thinking if you are measuring the way you shot em, their is a fair amount of wind factor in those groups.

Not bad shooting really.

It took me, the 3 shot I'm a hunter shooter, about FOREVER to learn to shoot a half azz good 10 shot group in rapid fire or 10 shot slow string. Never mind how long it took to learn to shoot 22 good shots in a row every match....

That's something. I guess.



Dave

The wind on Sunday was horrible. About 20mph and it literally stopped and switched from a 3 o'clock to 9 o'clock half-way through the shooting.

Anyway, cool test. I'd be curious to see what would happen if I put a free-float on mine.



Travis

There are a lot of "3 shot group" guys that are sure they could be right up there but will never know cause they don't want to know the truth.

I'm fine tuning a few things and will try again, testing ourselves and our equipment makes this contest a worthwhile endeavor.

I started shooting more 10 shot groups in the past year. Mostly based on a lot of Formidilio's and Barsness' comments on here.

This was the first time I shot 10 shot groups with my AR though.


Travis

Floating that gun, if shot off a rest, and the front rest is against the mag well, won't change a whole lot. But it won't hurt it either.

Lets say this, I"d take a Krieger or like, not floated over a Colt or like floated any day.

Interesting.




Travis

2x 10 shot groups is tough, I can get 3 shot under 1/2" with my 6.5 Grendel, but 10 shot is 1.5" - 2" without any wind on a good day.


This is about as good as I can do with a 4.5 - 18 Bushnell AR scope, bipod, standard FCG, and rear bag prone. Mixed Lapua and Hornady brass w/123gr sst. I have well under a $1k in this setup with the scope, so it's not a cool as a lot of these rigs but probably MOW (minute of wolf) to 500 yds.

UPDATE:
IF you wish to look back at a post referenced in the rankings, go to your preferences and set up your profile to view 25 post per page. Thanks.

Current Rankings:

Optics:
1) scenarshooter: .475 MOA (page 6)
2) tex_n_cal: .783 MOA (page 10)
3) KeneticPerformance: .819 MOA (page 8)
4) Fiddy: .896 MOA (page 14)
5) Certifiable: .935 MOA (page 10)
6) TWR: 1.083 MOA (page 12)
7) jimmyp: 1.085 MOA (page 5)
8) TWR: 1.110 MOA (page7)
9) Certifiable: 1.155 MOA (page 5)
10) wareagle700: 1.246 MOA (page 1)
Bluedreaux: 1.251 MOA (page 12)
BGunn: 1.265 MOA (page 2)
348srfun: 1.449 MOA (page 7)
tex_n_cal: 1.461 (page 5)
jimmyp: 1.537 MOA (page 5)
fredIII: 1.736 MOA (page 5)
Formidilosus: 1.787 MOA (page 4)
Mathsr: 1.928 MOA (page 4)
wareagle700: 1.968 (page 5)
TWR: 2.308 MOA (page 1)
deflave: 2.292 MOA (page 15)

Iron Sights:
1) rost495: 199-8x / 1.351 MOA (page6)
2) wareagle700: 167-0x / 3.320 MOA (page 1)

I don't agree with this. I had a Sako in the truck the same day I shot the AR, and I shot a 10 shot group with it before leaving. Measured 1.4 with a 7X scope.

Also, look at the number of times I shot my AR and what the groups averaged. 3/10" difference for six groups fired in different conditions with different optics by the same shooter? That makes it pretty clear it's a 2-2.5" gun for 10 shot groups.

IMO this is a test of the rifle/load. Not the shooter.



Travis

I think it's a test of both. I really wanted to give it a second try yesterday with a better rest but life got in the way.

Yep, definitely a test of both. For some the rifle is the weak link, some its ammo, some its the shooter. However, this challenge puts it all to the test.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm confident enough in my own abilities to know that nobody is going to take my rifle/load combo, shoot 6, 10 shot groups, and walk away with a 1.5MOA average.

Likewise, if I shoot a proven 1.5MOA gun, it isn't going to average 2MOA.

I hear it CONSTANTLY at the range. "This one's a called flyer." Is it? Or can you just not admit your Savage/Vortex combo isn't as amazing as you thought it was?

Either way. Great thread, and thanks to wareagle for keeping track of it all.



Travis

It is what Travis says and what the rest say.

IF you know you shoot fine, its strictly a gun/ammo marriage test.

If you are not sure then it can be both.

Travis has enough rounds downrange and is one of those somewhat rare folks that may come across arrogant, but its confidence actually. That takes some doing and repetitive for some folks.

I used to think I really sucked, until I was having a bad day, and a Palma shooter I know very well says, how long are you goign to be miserable and shoot a worn out barrel? I says you really think so? Yep.

Put a new Krieger on as soon as I could, first 10 shots out of the Krieger were better than a LOT of the last shots of the old tube... I realized I had progressed, and since I had, I could concentrate more on both being even a better shto, AND knowing that I had to tweak the max out of the gun/ammo combo because I was at that point, somewhat capable.

FWIW on a side note, it still took me a few years to get to the point of being able to shoot 22 shots in a row without muffing a shot due to stress.... read a few mental books, figured that out, once I figured out how to shoot mentally, life was really better.

PS wish some more would plya irons. Sure hope I get time to shoot a few more irons to see if I can actually remember how to shoot again too.
Life keeps throwing curves... last was the storm that dropped a 40 inch post oak in the road... at least got part of that cut last night after work... 3 hours work there and we have about 25% of it somewhat cut up.

And a note, if anyone wants to play irons, I'll drop this info... you HAVE to focus on the front sight at all times, if it becomes blurry, you have lost... rear sight, blur, target as sharp as can be, BUT the front sight has to be the one thats sharp.

1.) I'm arrogant as well.

2.) I don't have irons on my AR. Gruff has an RRA with irons but I'm not sure if he'll let me use it or not.



Travis

I might take a stab with irons. I have a decent set of Troys on my .300 Blackout. And in fact it would be fun to try some other calibers too. There's a new AR10 barrel that needs installing.

But I think I'd really like to beat DeFlave using a Sharps...

That'll just lead me to beating your Sharps score with my 03A3.

Vicious cycle.




Travis

My guns will outshoot me. I am the weak link.

Take my first group, I was shooting pretty decent then pulled the 8th shot out 2", the next group, pressure had gotten to me and the jitters so it wasn't much better. I go back on my second attempt and shoot a .980 group then another flyer opened up the second target. Possibly a problem with the load or the gun but you just know when a shot feels right and when it doesn't.

I am going to shoot irons and the scoped challenge again but tropical storm Bill dumped another 8-9" of rain on us the past few days so it may be awhile.

Well, that's news.........thought you were just a little cocky.

MM

We could use an inch or so here. Its been in the 100's the last few days. Not much fun to shoot in and definitely no fun to work in.

1A. I always took that to be childish, and now I find out its been arrogant all along.

I remember getting up from 600 prone, some 15 minutes or so in a shirt, sweatshirt, and heavy leather shooting coat, in the summers here..... 3 specific times and seeing stars and being very wobbly... one of those times I almost hit the ground again before I got sat down.

100s plus ain't no fun. Its why I can't wait for retirement and AK at least 9 months of the year.

Thankfully my buddy Gruff is one that thinks ahead. He keeps irons on his AR just in case his optics fail. Unfortunately, his irons couldn't hit a 2X3' piece of cardboard @ 100yds.

So I improvised and borrowed this Colt A1 hunk of schit.


I had to do some zeroing and taping, but hey. It wears irons so it counts.











Travis

Nice. What's the correct sight picture for iron sighted AR's? Do you cut the target in half, set the target on the post, or float your target above the sight post? I have done it several different ways depending on the target and rifle but didn't know what the service rifle guys preferred while shooting at black dots.

Just got a NM carry handle. Will try with irons again on Sunday.

I honestly don't know how others hold and I had never really held on a bullseye before. All the targets I have shot irons with were the shape of a person.

I much prefer center mass to the 6 o'clock but I was more than done fugking with the A1 sight arrangement. I just held six o'clock to get it done.

I made my bullseyes after a few vodkas last night.



Travis

From the shooters I talk and compete with, more of the masters and high masters seem to shoot center of black. I shoot with a six o'clock hold and I'm nowhere close to being master status, I can occasionally shoot an expert score.

Short answer, yes.

1:9 Rock River LAR 15, National Match trigger
Burris AR532 scope
55 grain FMJ, Rem brass, CCI primer, 27.5 gr TAC. I have not tried anything else as far as reloads go. I loaded up several hundred of these for function and concistancy in hitting a gong in various positions. I most definitely need to work on my loads and my shooting. I tired using good technique on the first group and shot like crap. I just shot straight through on the second group and tightened up quite a bit.
3.28"average

Yes.
The correct answer is going to be what works for your eyes vs the target. The most important part generally speaking is front sight focus.

Then comes target contrast, IE which hold tells you the most, whether you are off or on, and allows you to see the most minor mistakes.

FWIW standing slow and sitting rapid I ended up shooting center mass. I could not do that the rest. Prone rapid and all prone slow except 1000, was 6 oclock. Not flat tire 6 but full 6.

1000 was sub 6 frame hold and we quit shooting after I'd only shot 1000 twice with sub six frame hold but dang that worked the best by far for my elevation issues. Got that from the AMU that used my ammo to set the 1000 yard service rifle record. Figured it was a fair swap of data.

My groups were schit, but definitely minute of commie thoracic cavity at 100. And the irons were zero'd. For me. Apparently just me.

Are you guys shooting constantly or letting barrel cool between shots??

My 6.8 will do great for 3 shots and then open up as barrel heats up.

I started out with a plan of shooting 5 then letting the barrel cool down and shooting 5 more. It was hot outside, my rest sucked and after the second flier the plan went out the window. I shot a 5 shot group then loaded 15 more in the mag and went for it.

Of coarse there is a competitive component to this exercise but it's also about learning your rifle and your ability with it.

The competitive side of me wants to try it again with a better rest and my AR-15. Another part of me wants to try it with my AK-47/Aimpoint Pro setup for the knowledge, chits and giggles. I've never shot a 20 shot group with it. Of coarse it won't be ranked but I'll probably learn from the experience. I'm definitely going to give the Mini 14 another run at it.

This has been a fun thread. Great idea Wareagle700!

I swapped into a new DD rifle and shot it yesterday, did not do very well so will not post the results, I am however convinced that 4X is not a high enough power to shoot this challenge, especially with a circle dot reticle. I shoot all the way thru with just enough time in between to recover and get my scope back on target, so I am not burning up the barrel nor am I letting it cool. I shot another 10 out of my Noveske barreled gun yesterday as well shooting a 62 grain TTSX load I hunt with, it shoots 1MOA with everything or thats about the best I can do.

My matches required 10 shots in 60 or 70 seconds from standing, with a mag change, etc...

Slow fire portions of them, given a minute per shot, I"d shoot as fast as I could when the conditions allowed, single loading.

The way I shot this challenge is same, single loading as fast as I could get the right sight picture and the gun would go off.

Barrel heating up and wondering is nothing that would work for me, at least in my mind, even in a hunting gun.

Sit down and shoot, you'll never know what your gun is capable of otherwise.

Not unlike Mjolnir.



Travis

I shoot 40-50 rounds and then tape over the holes I don't want to include in the group. Then I snap a pic.



Travis

I shoot 10 yards from the target and then take a picture of my rifle 100 yards away, cheaper that way.

Yall should try shooting with the target folded in half. It's a cheaper way to get 20 rounds on paper with only 10 shots.

Here's an example of a truly "basic" AR, straight out of the box, with inexpensive ammo and a shooter more accustomed to 3lb triggers than the 8lb "staple gun" feel of a factory AR trigger.

I only shot one group for record, these were shots 11-21 out of the rifle; I didn't alter the gun except to remove the packing oil, re-lube with break-free and adjust the sight several inches to the left.

Rifle: Ruger AR-556
Sights: Factory flip-up rear, post-front.
Rest: Caldwell bags
Ammo: Federal American Eagle 223 Rem, 55gr FMJ BT







I went with a 6 o'clock hold on the bottom of the black. The vertical dispersion shows how poorly I held that sight picture.

The horizontal dispersion is likely a my poor sight pictures and my struggle against the trigger. The ammunition likely didn't help, but I doubt I would have done any better with better ammunition given the trigger, the sights and my inexperience with the rifle.

The center 8 shots are in a not-too-terrible group:





I wasn't plotting my shots so I don't know whether those center 8 were from the beginning, the middle or the end.

10-shot groups are interesting to shoot, I found my sight picture deteriorating significantly as the string progressed. I think next time out I will take along my range timer and give myself a set time in which to fire, so I can rest my eyes periodically. I fired this group in less than a minute. Not rapid fire, but also not paced slow fire.

So here's what a $600 AR-15, straight out of the box, with basic inexpensive ammo can do when shot my someone (me) who doesn't regularly shoot AR's, and also doesn't regularly shoot with poor triggers (the only triggers I have that are heavier than this AR are the DA pull on my revolvers).

I like this little Ruger, it's no target rifle as currently configured but, then again, I didn't pay for a target rifle. I look at it like a Winchester 94 in 30-30: a basic "house" rifle, accurate enough with a practiced shooter to handle everyday rifle chores and inexpensive enough that there's no good reason not to have one.

That said, if I ever get bit by the AR bug I'm going to buy a Noveske Rogue Hunter upper and a Giessele trigger and really get this Ruger rockin'

I shot my .300 Blackout yesterday, for S&G. I didn't beat DeFlave so I won't post the group size. The groups didn't really look that bad, but there were at least a couple of flyers in each 10 shot group that spoiled them. Need to tinker a bit more with the loads, and also get rid of the stock trigger. I have a Timney 4lb single stage that's ready to install.

I shot again Saturday but didn't improve anything so didn't post anything. I did shoot irons and the first target was about 2", the second was 2 shots on each side of the paper so I quit wasting ammo.

My groups were shot with 1-2 breaths between shots

Have any of you guys tried the same challenge with your best bolt guns? Just to compare?




Travis

I have done a similar challenge and did much better with my bolt gun. I am not giving up on my AR though. I know I can get MOA or better groups without having to buy a bull barrel or 15lb AR-15. I won't be happy until I get all 20 rounds under MOA.

well, almost...

I even fired off 5 shots with my 375 H&H for chits and giggles...

Realistically, one of my best shooting rifles is my 9.3x62mm, but I don't want to burn up the ammo for 2 10 shot groups and my shoulder probably doesn't want to endure that kind of pain... .., but this is how it shoots:


I'm working on getting an AR. It might be a while though. This shoot here with all the participants has inspired me to start looking into building a nice one... Something I have never had an interest in.. Thanks guys...

In my case, it's a .475 Turnbull

Surely that's not a 3 shot group....

I got interested in my 223AI Kimber Montana finally, got it bedded, fire forming loads loaded, I just need to clean the bore. I may give it a try this weekend.

yes, it be 3 shots. More than 3 shots and either you, or the critter are out of action

I was eyeing a Ruger RAR all-weather in .223, yesterday. I'd like to have a bolt or single shot .223, capable of taking longer OAL's, but the promised fast twist #1V ain't out yet.

How fast twist in the Ruger American? 1-9 is what holds me back mostly from bolt 233

Full 9 twists stabilize most 80s if driven hard FWIW. I simply don't trust most marked 9s to be full exact 9 or slower, and that does create issues. 9.2 could be enough to negate that stabilization.

The Ruger RAR is said to have a 1 in 8" twist

My Kimber has a 1-9 and I've been told some will stabilize the 75 Amax, some won't. We will see...

My last 700 LTR was a 1-9 too and it would.

If it won't do the 75 amax, its not a true 9 OR not driving the bullet fast enough typically.

Carolyn and my shooting partner on our state team shot 9 twist obermeyers in 20 inch 223 on purpose, came from BR background, and shot 80 bergers all the time in his...

So I shot another 10-shot test group from my Ruger AR-556. Same setup as my earlier post:

Ruger AR-556, factory iron sights
Federal American Eagle 55gr BT
Caldwell bag front rest

This time I didn't use a rear bag, and instead pulled the rifle back into my shoulder using my left hand on the front of the magazine well. I also opted for a smaller black circle target, which I think helped me with holding elevation.

Here's some pics of the group, I think it's an improvement:





The 7 closest shots form a not-too-bad group:

If thats a piston ruger AR rifle it may not shoot all that much better even with the best of ammo.

It's a standard DI gas system rifle.

Thats interesting, maybe find a better ammo combo, BUT in reality thats not bad shooting for irons at all from a factory stock gun with ammo that you really don't know is tuned to the gun or not.

Heck I couldn't even produce an MOA iron group much less sub moa.

The weather kept me in today but I did manage to put some rounds down range. This is not an official entry due to this being a lever action rifle with a wood stock but here are my results.

Rifle and range:



Target at 10 yards:



Rifle: Daisy Buck BB gun
Groups: 3.875" + 3.750" = 3.813" or 36.418 MOA

wow it shoots better than a mini 14!

Ouch!

Thats dedication to needing to shoot! I sure remember those days.

Now it seems a struggle to make time to shoot now and then.

Just fooling around this AM before work and between rain.

Not an official entry by any means but folks have been curious in the past on light barrels opening up when hot and Kimber Montana's all together. This one in 223 I had set back and punched Ackley Improved, Leupold 3.5-10 VX3 with M1 elevation turret. The first load of CFE 223 and a 55 gr NBT Moly'd in Lapua brass with a CCI 41 primer. Fire forming loads.

I fired 3 shots to get on paper, then 10 more to dial the scope in then let the barrel cool long enough to walk down and hang the official target on the board and commenced to shooting 20 shots single loaded as fast as I could acquire the target and squeeze the trigger, had to be at work by 10.

The range

The gun and setup

The target

Got to the shop and the first group measures 1.248, the second, 1.978, (1.375 without the called flyer).

Not bad for a punched factory Montucky that weighs 6.5 lbs scoped, first load tried and with a half blind man shooting. I have to go get my eyes checked, almost out of adjustment to focus the reticle.

I am picture posting illiterate. Any help?

Looks good to me. I was just at the LGS fondeling a montana... Very nice slick actions. One of these days I'll play a little roulette...

It worked. 2 10 shot strings slung up and prone with mag changes in 60 seconds at 100 yards. Testing some loads and needed a front sight adjustment to center up.

nice shooting!

Heres my entry. My printer wouldn't print the target, but I made this work.





25 grains of TAC with 50 NBT.

Loaded some .308's tonight. Might have to see how one of the AR-10's will do...

It was hot and windy, but interesting shooting the lighter of the two AR-10's.

This is the range:



The rifle is an AR-10. It's wearing a Leupold Mark 6 - 1x6 power , in a LaRue 1.5 mount. The barrel is an 18" mid-length Rainier Arms Ultramatch (Shilen blank) with a Vortex flash hider. The load was a 150gr Nosler BT in Nosler brass, over 46gr of Varget, sparked by CCI BR2 primers. Timney 4lb single stage trigger, and magpul ACS stock.



The wind was gusty. With it being hot I was shooting 5 shots, and letting the barrel cool off. On the 2nd group, I'd fired 5, then sat down again, and fired the one flyer, and realized the wind had quit. I adjusted hold, and it held quite a bit better. 9 of 10 were in 1.28"



So, one group at 1.71" and another in 1.85". A better shooter, one better at reading the wind, might cut that average by 1/2". A higher mag scope might help too.

But this one I call a heavy carbine, not really a bench gun

Nice. I find the .308's to be tougher to tame, keeping 10 under 2 MOA isn't all that bad. I seem to be able to put 8-9 in 3/4 " and tend to pull one or two shots out of the group. I'm certain its me because I can repeat it.

how certain are you that its you since you constantly repeat it? Sooner or later you should shoot all the shots good IMHO.

Now and then flyers can have personaly explanations, just like missed wind reads etc..

The longer this thread goes, it would be fun to see 10-20 shot groups at 300 or 600.

I know I've shot once. Grass is as tall as my shooting bench and life has not allowed me to shoot again, though I walk by my spotter, targets and knoblochs every few days getting on the mule to go do some task here that has to be done.

Finally got the tractor all parts together and running late last night.
Had other committments this morning, now I"m about to put the body on it to go disc and then finally the shredder. Maybe I can play again.

Texncal

Don't be afraid of heat and barrels. On good AR barrels that were cut, we still got 4-5000 rounds of top line match accuracy, and up to 10K plus of MOA accuracy, even though our game FORCED us to shoot 10 quickly in less than 40 seconds basically.
At least shooting lots of rounds in the heat doesn't scare me like it used to....

Sorry, I should say most 10 shot groups from my .308 I tend to pull one or two consistently. When I can call the shots I feel like I can attribute that to my shooting vs. the rifles accuracy.

I don't much care for the AR10 platform. It doesn't quite feel right to me, but I've not shot it much. I"ve shot the M14 MUCH more.

IT may well be that simply the more recoil just takes a bit more to get on board with, and thats actually a fact, when you are used to the 15, minor things in form magnify...

if you are simply flinching from the 308, then you simply need to, if you want to fix it, do a LOT of ball and dummy training... it'll break you and fairly fast.

Or you can simply adapt my mental thought..... its going to make noise and push back no matter what round it is or what I do, if I activate it.
SO... I may as well hit what I"m after in the process. I had to let a 300 wtby hit me in the brow left handed once... had no other shot, long story, best deer of my life at the time, and I knew it was coming, and a tiny target in the brush, so I turned it loose, hit what I was aiming at, found out that 180 nosler partitions are not what I thought they were, and killed a good deer, and had a heck of a headache, but the Zeiss had a rubber ring so no actual cut....

Carolyn shot a squirrel here with a 378 wtby one afternoon, said yeah it thumped pretty good but why miss in the process...

The more we shoot, the more we learn about our guns, loads and ourselves.

Not flinching, recoil doesn't bother me. It's more of a fundamental issue. If I shoot enough I can work it out but getting to shoot often enough is the problem. Work and stuff ya know, sometimes shooting takes a back seat.

I agree TWR.

Excellent thread guys. I've been following it and waiting patiently to get the chance to shoot an AR!!!! I couldn't stand it anymore, seeing how you guys are having so much fun. I am no where near a contender here and this was the second time ever firing an AR rifle. It was fun and I can see how it will be addicting. I'll be building or buying one in the near future: You can count on it . Today was a windy blustery/rainy day, then the sun would come out for 5 minutes and then it would start raining again , but shooting was good nonetheless. Here are the pictures to show what I was shooting. My buddy says it is the ATH Carbine Rock River with the 18" stainless tube. Rifle is just the way it came from the factory, except for the BCM charging handle. It is wearing a 4-16x50 Vortex viper (I believe). I'm not a huge fan of the scope personally and will have something different on the one I build. The Warne mount also loosened up while my friend was dialing it in .. I was shooting factory ammo, but I guarantee I'd be shooting handloads if it were mine, just sayin. I shot off the Caldwell bag shown in the pic. Range was 100 yards:








I focused a little better and actually focused the scope a little better (parallax and eye piece) for the second group... Duh!!! However, since my buddy didn't have too many rounds of the spendy CBC ammo and we aren't allowed to cherry pick groups, this is what it was.... I'm thinking the rifle I buy or build will be more accurate, plus more time behind the trigger of one of these AR's will be good for shrinking groups... Great thread, thanks for starting it and allowing me to play along...

Nice shooting, especially with a rifle your not familiar with!

Yep you will have to get one now, and they will multiply somehow as well.

Is CBC ammo made by Magtech?

I know the back seat route, for years shooting was front seat, now its flipped for us.

308s get on my/our nerves after hundreds of rounds. Years ago 2 weeks at Perry shooting nationals and we both had scabs on our faces from recoil, and it actually got to a real mental game because it was starting to hurt to go prone and sling the gun for prone slow...

Do they kick? No, but cumulative will work on us anyway.

IF you are serious about shooting well, and have the time, or make the time, you can do LOADs of good with dry fire on the den floor.... takes less money/time than heading to the range if you don't have a range by walking out your back door like we do. Even then dry firing is cheaper, helps a TON, and is quicker than walking over to the range.

My buddy buys expensive factory ammo, I keep trying to convince him to start loading for his AR but he's dragging his feet. I'd be loading some of those 77 grainers or even the 69gr. sierra matchkings in that rifle and rock on.. It's this stuff right here, but I don't know anything about it:

CBC 5.56 ammo

Well, I gave the custom Mini-14 another run at it and something went horribly wrong. I think my scope puked.

The 1st group went 1.85" and then the second group opened to 2.46" for an average of 2.15". Not bad for a Mini-14 but this rifle will do better. I'm sure of it. The range went clear so I walked down and tore the 1st target off and taped up a new one. On my second attempt the group was looking to be around 3" (not good) but the last three went all over the paper opening the group to something like 8"-10". I didn't bother to measure it. Hmmm, I let the barrel cool down and changed the target to try the forth group (on new paper hoping to better my first attempt) and some of the bullets aren't even hitting paper now! Down at the end of the range there are a bunch of clay pigeons at 225yds on the berm so I take a few pot shots at those. Dust flies up 4 and 5 feet away from the point of aim and hitting randomly high, low, left and right so I'm guessing the scope is toasted.

Oh well, this is my best and last attempt for the Mini-14 in the challenge thread. The scope is going back to Weaver and it's almost August. If I try it again it'll be with one of my AR's and probably not until late September. I only shoot because it's fun. It's miserably hot and the fun is gone for this year.


Here it is, 2.15" average for 20 shots.

Not bad at all. Impressive.

I would like to submit my newest black rifle.

Beretta Storm in .40 S&W. Shot with irons.



There was a horrible left to right wind gusting and that's what I believe threw that one right. Wasn't the gun and it goes without saying that it wasn't me.

The pic is fugked up angle wise but it is an honest 7" group.


Second group I'll call a 4.7.



Average of 5.85.



Travis

well, you beat the Kel-tec I once owned, FWIW

It's gonna break some hearts if I take it out on a calm day.




Travis

My bud had two of the 40's, unique is a good word for the product.

It may be "unique", but for those kind of sights he really didn't do too bad...

I'm not sure if this challenge is still going on, but I finally got a chance to shoot it yesterday and thought I'd submit my results.

Rifle used is a Smith and Wesson M+P 15 with a 16" barrel with a 1-9 twist. I bought this rifle a few years ago with the sole purpose of getting into a black rifle for the least money possible. The only thing I've changed on the gun is to get rid of the faux adjustable stock and put on a cheap DSA 6 position tube and a Magpul MOE stock. Other than that the rifle is completely stock.

The optics are a Burris FFII 2-7x35 scope mounted in Weaver rings on a Weaver riser block. It's not a pretty mounting system, but it's strong and works well.



Ammo was a bit of a problem. I scrounged around to find 20 or more of something that wasn't military or ball ammo and came up with 21 rounds of USA 45gr. JHP bulk varmint ammo that I bought in the early 90's. (Price tag on the box reads less than $12 for 40 rounds. Wish I had stocked up on it.) I used one round to make sure the point of impact would be on paper somewhere and was pleased to see that it happened to be pretty well zeroed.

The range is the usual meadow behind my reloading barn. I had just brush hogged, so the grass and weeds were not a problem. I shoot slightly downward from a second story window in my barn, which, combined with the rise in elevation of the land makes for a good backstop.



Per rost's suggestions here, I did a bit of dry firing to get used to the bags and bench arrangement.



I fired the 10 shot groups pretty quickly, actually surprising myself when the bolt locked back.

Target 1 - 2.4". When I started shooting, I could see the 2 high fliers, but couldn't see where the rest of the shots landed. It wasn't until I checked the target that I realized shots 1 and 2 screwed up a pretty nice group.



I waited several minutes before firing target 2. I had to reload my 10 round magazine and I was also keeping an eye on my son, who was playing up at the house, meaning that I had to get up and go to the window in the other end of the barn to make sure he was still there and safe.

Target 2 - 1.82". This one was shot with about the same speed as target 1. Maybe 2-3 seconds between shots. The trigger in this rifle is pretty heavy, so my system was to quickly re-align the crosshair with the blue tape on the target and smoothly squeeze off the shot.



Looks like my combined score is 2.11". I was hoping for better, but I haven't even shot this gun since last fall and that was just a single shot to confirm short range zero for the purpose of using it as a backup rifle while hunting with my son. (If he shot and simply winged his deer, I was going to open up on it so he wouldn't lose his first deer). This rifle usually throws 3 shots into nice little groups and it might do better with some ammo built for the gun - something that I've never done.

I was hoping for better, but this gives me a benchmark to work from. Maybe I'll take some time and craft some ammo just for this rifle and see what it'll do. One thing is certain, those 10 round groups will keep a guy honest.