Need to improve a trigger on an Oly, what's a good way to go?

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There are several threads on other boards that refer to a "15 min. trigger job". If you follow the simple instructions, it will improve your trigger quite a bit. Brownell's also has reduced-power spring sets for AR's. They are easy to install and they also will help your trigger.

If you don't mind spending a little money, you can buy a "drop in" trigger from many sources. Rock River makes a two-stage that's pretty good. JP now makes a drop-in as well. Chip McCormick makes several drop-in triggers but those that I have used were poor, and not worth the investment.

If you have a gunsmith in the area that is familiar with AR's, you should be able to get a pretty good trigger job for around $30-$40.

I'm a self-confessed trigger freak. I like crispy and I like consistent.
Here's my rundown on AR triggers that I have or had and have significant time on (in order of preference);

Stoner aka KAC aka Knight - this is the crispiest AR trigger I've ever played with. Easy to install, easy to pull out and tweak. A certain multiple time Highpower champion used one when he won with a Gasgun because he felt it gave the best feel. Downside is that they're expensive ~$300 and hard to get with the war efforts sucking up alot of KAC's production.

Geiselle - I just started playing with this one and I like it. Not as crisp as the KAC, but very good nonetheless. Easy installation (excellent detailed instructions). Easy adjustment on engagement, first and second stage weight. Most feel it has the quickest lock time. I have no way to quantify that. Readily available, but costly ~$280.

Rock River - good basic design. When tuned by a good trigger man like John Holliger, these are excellent. Unfortunately quality is spotty and a good portion of these "need" the tuning. Best part is that they are inexpensive at under $100. Even with a $30 tune job you have a very good value.

Milazzo - These were the old gold standard. These NEED to be tuned by someone that knows what they're doing. Untuned they can be as creepy and inconsistent as any other bad trigger. Tuned, they are great, durable and reliable triggers.

Armalite - same comments as the Rock River, but at a higher cost.

Jewell - Some folks like them because they're available and they can be tuned for weight without removing them from the gun. I don't put much value into those features. My experience with these has not been good. I got one with a misground hammer, it uses proprietary springs that weaken over time (Jewell will refurb your trigger when the time comes for a price). What's most bothersome to me is that mine is inconsistent in feel from pull to pull. I believe it's a function of the slop in the disconnector on it's boss. All that for $180 bucks!

CLE - Compass Lake makes great rifles and other parts....unfortunately not great triggers. This is a reworked GI trigger. During my time with this trigger, I lost the first stage, and had it become a hair trigger...all during a match. This in spite of following the instructions to keep it lubed with Moly grease. I've come to find that my experience was hardly unique.

Bushmaster - a copy of the CLE with all the associated challenges and more.

I'm not a fan of the single stage triggers like the JP, Accuracy Speaks and the Chip McCormick. With single stage triggers, you're playing with sear engagement to achieve "feel". Not exactly a good situation with a semi-auto. I know many have used them successfully. I won't...because I like consistency and "crispy" all at the same time.

I'm a self-confessed trigger freak. I like crispy and I like consistent.
Here's my rundown on AR triggers that I have or had and have significant time on (in order of preference);

Stoner aka KAC aka Knight - this is the crispiest AR trigger I've ever played with. Easy to install, easy to pull out and tweak. A certain multiple time Highpower champion used one when he won with a Gasgun because he felt it gave the best feel. Downside is that they're expensive ~$300 and hard to get with the war efforts sucking up alot of KAC's production.

Geiselle - I just started playing with this one and I like it. Not as crisp as the KAC, but very good nonetheless. Easy installation (excellent detailed instructions). Easy adjustment on engagement, first and second stage weight. Most feel it has the quickest lock time. I have no way to quantify that. Readily available, but costly ~$280.

Rock River - good basic design. When tuned by a good trigger man like John Holliger, these are excellent. Unfortunately quality is spotty and a good portion of these "need" the tuning. Best part is that they are inexpensive at under $100. Even with a $30 tune job you have a very good value.

Milazzo - These were the old gold standard. These NEED to be tuned by someone that knows what they're doing. Untuned they can be as creepy and inconsistent as any other bad trigger. Tuned, they are great, durable and reliable triggers. Good luck finding one. Charlie Milazzo doesn't return phone calls and I've been on his waiting list for something like 10 years now. I've had a few pass thru my hands now and I've not kept any (too many better alternatives).

Armalite - same comments as the Rock River, but at a higher cost.

Jewell - Some folks like them because they're available and they can be tuned for weight without removing them from the gun. I don't put much value into those features. My experience with these has not been good. I got one with a misground hammer, it uses proprietary springs that weaken over time (Jewell will refurb your trigger when the time comes for a price). What's most bothersome to me is that mine is inconsistent in feel from pull to pull. I believe it's a function of the slop in the disconnector on it's boss. All that for $180 bucks!

CLE - Compass Lake makes great rifles and other parts....unfortunately not great triggers. This is a reworked GI trigger. During my time with this trigger, I lost the first stage, and had it become a hair trigger...all during a match. This in spite of following the instructions to keep it lubed with Moly grease. I've come to find that my experience was hardly unique.

Bushmaster - a copy of the CLE with all the associated challenges and more.

I'm not a fan of the single stage triggers like the JP, Accuracy Speaks and the Chip McCormick. With single stage triggers, you're playing with sear engagement to achieve "feel". Not exactly a good situation with a semi-auto. I know many have used them successfully. I won't...because I like consistency and "crispy" all at the same time.

Super post Chris.

Super post Chris!

Wow!!

Thanks for all that info Chris. Obviously loaded with experience.

ChrisF, I have sold a fair amount of Jewell triggers and own a few myself. Up till I started working with Jewell, I made my own. They were a single-stage much like the JP or the Accuracy Speaks triggers. I would purchase triggers in the "raw", before they were machined and hardened. That allowed me to leave the trigger longer and get less disconnector/sear jump. This makes for a great, single-stage trigger, but it is not easily adjustable. Because of the incredibly minute sear engagement and the critical timing issues with the disconnector, the trigger can't simply be "adjusted" in the field like the Jewell. Many of my customers, and myself have found that having the ability to change your trigger from a "load development" trigger to a "big-game" or "predator" trigger in the matter of a few seconds was a huge advantage. I do have a Max-Hard lower with one of my triggers in it just for target and load development, but not everyone has that option. The Jewell gives anyone who owns one the ability to have many different triggers for many different applications.

As far as inconsistent pull, I have never found that. I don't know if you have a bad one, or an older model or if I am just lucky but I have yet to have any problem with a Jewell trigger.

DTech,
Bill Wylde, Al Turner and others used to rework the GI trigger design when there was nothing else. Thankfully we've progressed beyond that.

I'd bet that for some, Jewell is a quantum leap in feel from the GI triggers that they're coming off of. Like I said, I'm a trigger freak, and I like crispy and consistent. Where it matters the most is shooting Standing where you're timing a wobble. Off a bench or other supported position, I'd make do with anything resembling the break of a stale pretzel. When Holliger started offering his "tuned" RRA triggers there was a rash of used Jewells hitting the market. With the introduction of the Geissele, there are again more used Jewells being offered up on the Highpower boards.

To be fair, I've played with some Jewells that were just fine. But I've felt that for $180 bucks, you shouldn't have to be playing an odds game.

DTech,
There was a time when the AR Pioneers like Bill Wylde, Al Turner and others would rework the GI Trigger design. Thankfully we've progressed beyond that.

For some folk like those taking that first step up from a GI design, the Jewell will be the greatest trigger they ever felt. But like I mentioned earlier, I'm picky on my triggers...and there are better than the Jewell out there. When Holliger started offering his "tuned" RRA's, there was a rash of used Jewells being sold on the Highpower boards. One feller from Texas sold 3 of his at firesale prices. With the introduction of the Geissele, I've noticed more Jewells being pulled and replaced.

To be fair, I've also played with some Jewells that were just fine. ...and there are those that are tuning the slop out of the Jewells etc...but I've felt that for 180 bucks, you shouldn't have to be playing the odds of getting a good one, or paying someone extra to make right what should have been from the beginning.

DTech, have you spent much time with a MKII, KAC or Geissele?

No I haven't. While talking with John Holinger about triggers he urged me to try one of the Geisseles but I haven't had time. For years the only trigger I used was my own. Over the years I have probably made and installed around 500 of them. My business has now gotten to the point where if I take a day to make triggers, that takes away from time that I could spend building a custom gun. There are many custom services that I used to offer that I no longer have time for. It's unfortunate, but it's just more cost-effective for me to build guns, than to build triggers.

There's a saying...
"A fly raised in a jar of vinegar will think that it's the sweetest place on earth." ...or sumthing along those lines.

There's a saying...
"A fly raised in a jar of vinegar will think that it's the sweetest place on earth." ...or sumthing along those lines.

Try a KAC or Geissele. In my 4-1/2 lb world, they are the best.

My single-stage trigger is actually quite fine. Labor intensive, but very good. The fact that I have not had or taken the opportunity to try ALL of the triggers available out there for an AR, doesn't necessarily mean that I don't know what a "good" trigger is. The statement about being raised in a jar of vinegar is perhaps a little presumptuous, without you having lived in "my jar of vinegar"

Dtich,
My comment was actually based on our differing opinions on the Jewells. I've not tried your modified GI triggers and thus can't/won't comment on those.

My comment as pointed as it may be was from my viewpoint as a consumer. When one is specializing in the Custom AR market, wouldn't it make sense to have some working knowlege of the aftermarket triggers out there? At least that's my minimum expectation when my smith makes a recommendation.

Dtich,
My comment was actually based on our differing opinions on the Jewells. I've not tried your modified GI triggers and thus can't/won't comment on those, especially since you're not making them any longer.

My comment as pointed as it may be was from my viewpoint as a consumer. When one is specializing in the Custom AR market, wouldn't it make sense to have some working knowlege of the aftermarket triggers out there? At least that's my minimum expectation when my smith makes a recommendation.

My triggers are not/were not modified GI triggers. Like I said, I got the triggers before they were "born" and built them from there. Yes, they are a single-stage, but that's where the similarity ends.

I find triggers to be very subjective. A trigger that seems mushy or has too much creep for me may seem great to another, and vice-versa. You seem to have rolled triggers into a nice, neat little package that applies to all. I have found that doesn't work with my customers. I'm not a bench-rest or high-power shooter. I'm not a professional predator hunter or bounty hunter. I did, however, grow up in my father's gun shop, hunted and shot all my life, and for the last 14 years built custom AR's. Even though I devote most of my time and energy to the "heart" of the AR, the upper, I believe I have enough experience with the AR platform to make some reasonable recommendations. You, on the other hand, seem to know pretty much everything about AR triggers and could probably make a living advising others on the their pros and cons.

Jewel remains junk in the AR versions. Thats simple and known by the top shooters of the AR platform. Like Chris said, they are much better than the stock trigger, but in the trigger world they ain't squat. Its like me saying a 700 Remmy trigger vs a HR single shot trigger. That HR is bad, but the 700 will never be like a jewel bolt gun version.

Changing trigger weights has never been productive to me. I stick with 4.5 pound triggers and learn to shoot them and can shoot some decently small groups with them. Introducing variables from one outing to another in the way of trigger pulls, makes very little sense and can lead to some horrible habits. I can do the adaption but its one more thing to have to remember.

Chris is very picky about his triggers thats for sure!! And I don't blame him. I"m just very lucky to have 2 tuned Milazzo triggers that keep running. Had 3 jewel triggers, sold all of them, though I had a very early one that I could have kept from a junior since it was decent. I have one armalite. It requires constant work. I have probably close to 10 RRA triggers and at last look still have 2 on a peg in the safe. No issues yet. Tried a KAC and it was very good. have not had the Geisselle, but if I had to get another for my main gun I'd try it from the lock time side of the issue.

At the heart of the matter, the single stage trigger can never be made like a bolt gun trigger and stay safe and reliable. While the 2 stage can be made both low weight(not in mere ounces though) and very safe and repeatable while maintaining no creep. And not having a chance to double or as easily milk the trigger.

Jeff

Dtech,
First off let me apologize for stepping on your sensitivities. I agree that triggers feel is a very subjective topic. With that said, I will point out that I qualified my review a couple of times with statements of what I liked. I'm finding that while not all are as particular on triggers as I am, most tend to like a crisp trigger and consistency (no matter what type of feel it has). I do know of one very good shooter in my sport that likes a bit of "roll" in his trigger as well.

I'm sure you're well able to make "reasonable recommendations" on AR triggers. I'm merely pointing out that in my view and in my world (again if you read back, I qualified that), there are triggers worth looking at beyond the Jewell.

Do I know everything about AR triggers? Not hardly, but I've had the privelege to play with more than most without any commercial interest or profit involved (just a comment about me...not about you). The comment about the fly and vinegar was just as much as statement about my evolution with AR triggers as it was about folk that like the Jewell. I started off with a CLE because I couldn't get a MKII. I thought it was a quantum leap above the GI triggers (for a gas gun!). I tried a Jewell and thought it better. Got my hands on a KAC. Now all triggers are measured on that standard for me.

Dtech,
First off let me apologize for stepping on your sensitivities. I agree that triggers feel is a very subjective topic. With that said, I will point out that I qualified my review a couple of times with statements of what I liked. I'm finding that while not all are as particular on triggers as I am, most tend to like a crisp trigger and consistency (no matter what type of feel it has). I do know of one very good shooter in my sport that likes a bit of "roll" in his trigger as well.

I'm sure you're well able to make "reasonable recommendations" on AR triggers. I'm merely pointing out that in my view and in my world (again if you read back, I qualified that), there are triggers worth looking at beyond the Jewell.

Do I know everything about AR triggers? Not hardly, but I've had the privelege to play with more than most without any commercial interest or profit involved (just a comment about me...not about you). The comment about the fly and vinegar was just as much as statement about my evolution with AR triggers as it was about folk that like the Jewell. I started off with a CLE because I couldn't get a MKII. I thought it was a quantum leap above the GI triggers (for a gas gun!). I tried a Jewell and thought it better. Got my hands on a KAC. Now all triggers are measured on that standard for me.

ChrisF, you and roast both talk as though this is a "High-Power" board. Perhaps I am reading the wrong forum. Neither you or I are the "main-stream" AR user. If you visit AR-15.com you will be made, as I have been, aware of that fact quickly. Muleshoe started this thread by asking something like: "I've got an Oly that needs a new trigger, any suggestions?" Do you really think he wants to purchase Geissele or KAC? I may be wrong, but my take on his question was that he wanted something a little better than what he has, a stock Oly trigger. That is why my response to him was what it was. I know there are many triggers out there that are better than the ones that I mentioned in my initial post. I just didn't want to, as roast would say, "muddy the waters" with suggestions that were way beyond what he was apparently requesting. If someone posts a question like: "I would like a reliable car for my 16 year-old son to drive to school, any suggestions?" Why would you point that person in the direction of a Porsche or Maserati, when all they really wanted was a used Cavalier? Sure, the other two choices are smoother and faster, but........

I have built somewhat over 1000 AR combinations over the years. I think 3 of them went to people that intended to shoot high-power matches with them. My customer base is split between varmint hunters and predator hunters. Out of the roughly 1000 units I spoke of, 2 of them had iron sights. As you can see, like you, my involvement with AR's is far from "main stream". I can't sell a trigger with 4-1/2 pound pull, and out of all of the Jewell triggers I have sold, I have yet to have a complaint. Does that mean they are the best? No, it means my customers are using them for a different purpose that you use your AR. What works well for varmint hunters doesn't necessarily work well for high-power shooters. Many things that work well for high-power shooters don't work well for predator hunters.

I think more along the lines of what Chris and I are saying is that for the cost of the jewel, or even less, you can have a better, more reliable, more consistent trigger.

IF I was suggesting to spend more somehow my apologies. I was simply trying to say some things are not what they seem and why not know ALL the info.

I hear you on the differences between match and varmint shooters. Yet I've always used my match guns for varmints as I have nothing thats varmint only. They work just fine, yet most times I'm shooting a cheaper but better trigger setup than the jewel. And the tuned up rra versions can be taken down fairly light. Often times some folks are sold what they are told they have to have, rather than things that will work.

AR 15.com-- nope don't do that sight any more. Too many folks that don't have a clue. All they want is multiple rails and bayonet lugs.....Thats a different sight. I"d rather find a varmint hunter site.

AS to the car, if I could find a cheap cavalier that performed more like a BMW, then why not? And if it was better MPG so much the better.

BTW I saw a gun double on the line at a state match this weekend. Mostly shooter error but it did happen to be a jewel on top of it.

Jeff

I "don't do AR-15. com" either, but this is just as bad on the other side of "rail handguards and bayonete lugs"

I think we have both made our points, I think I'll stagger back to my "jar of vinegar"

Bingo!!

I'm just a varmint shooter looking for a trigger that's affordable, breaks at something less than 5lbs, and doesn't have the quarter inch of creep I'm dealing with now. I'm guessing the trigger I have now breaks at 7 or 8lbs, it sucks.

Dtech
As an outside, unbiased observer who would love to have on of your rifles, I didn't think ChrisF was intending to impugn or criticize your expertise in anyway. From an outside view, you both came out unscathed. Even where you may have disagreed, it was clear you were talking about different points of view. I don't think you guys need a peacemaker, but that's the way I see it.
T

Thank you toltecgriz,
You are right I meant no ill. That bit of edge on my humor didn't go over very well did it? I don't post very often. When I do, I try to make it worth everyone's time. I've tried to qualify my preferences and comments so folks can decide what might be valid for them and what might not. Believe it or not, I've learned from Dtech, but somehow I don't think it's worked out the other way.

muleshoe...in your initial query, there wasn't a mention of budget, so I covered the gamut. Now that I know you're on a budget, take a look at RRA section of my review. Pay the extra to get it tuned. I believe it's the best value in an AR trigger out there today. In fact, I usually keep an extra one in my back pocket for the folks that try mine and want to steal it....and my apologies for that whole "Jewell detour". It wasn't my intent to bait Dtech into that whole tangent.

Thanks! I've been thinking the Rock River would be the one since your original post. Where do I find one of these beasts and who works on them?

I know that Dtech knows Holliger and so ask Dtech if he sells and tunes RRA versions. If not White Oak Precision offers them.

I think the Dtech has taken this personally which is not the intention at all. Simply probably more experience with all versions of triggers by Chris. I stopped when I was happy and didn't go off to every trigger made, but as duly noted I'm lucky to have Milazzo and RRA tuned ones here.

Dtech-- the vinegar was a funny, Chris always has a sense of humor.. Neither of us are taking you to task, simply mentioning better options.

Jeff

Jeff

Okay guys, if you hadn't guessed by now you are dealing with a very ignorant AR shooter here. The answer is probably quite obvious, but please tell me what the difference is between a single stage and a two stage trigger is.

A two stage has unresistant take up before the trigger weight is encountered. A one stage is like we are used to on bolt action rifles: i.e. no slop on the front end. That's my definition. I'll be interested in what others say.

Like RickyD says, a single stage trigger is what most folk are familar with. Pull against the trigger. When you put enough weight, trigger breaks, rifle goes boom.
A two-stage trigger will move in two "stages". First it will move through the first stage (with varying amounts of weight depending on how it's set up). Then you'll hit the second stage where more weight will allow it to break like most triggers you're probably familiar with. The first stage isn't like your "quarter inch of creep" though. Moves much smoother and when you release it goes backwards too. Simpler in practice than I'm making it sound.

Benefits of a 2 stage in an AR are two fold in my eyes;
1) Most AR triggers are adaptations of the M14 design where the hammer is fully captured during the entire first stage giving an extra margin of safety. How much sear engagement you have doesn't come into play until you hit the second stage. In general you're able to get a crispier break with a 2-stage with less work and less risk.
2) You can play with the weight bias, How much weight is on each stage. If you want a 2 lb trigger, you can pull on 1lb on the fist stage, hit the second stage, add 1 more pound of pull when you're ready and break the shot. You effectively feel like you've pulled on a 1 lb trigger....or you can go 1-1/2lb first then 1/2 lb second.

I'd suggest you find someone with a good 2 stage to try. All my explaining goes away in a single "aha" the moment you try one. If you go ahead and buy one tuned by Holliger or other tuner, talk to them about what you intend to do with it (some of us are saddled with a 4-1/2 lb requirement that you don't need to be).

Okay, another question or two from one fairly new to the AR world.

How does one go about contacting this John Holliger or someone who tunes these triggers? Is it better to just buy say a RR from him or buy one elsewhere and send it to him to tune? Do they need just the trigger, or the entire lower to do the tuning?

Thanks much guys.

John Holliger's e-mail address is [email][email protected].[/email] His website is www.whiteoakprecision.com or www.whiteoakarmament.com

You can buy it already tuned or you can buy it elsewhere and pay him to tune it (sometimes he can't keep them in stock, so you might have to buy it somewhere else to get it quicker). He generally needs just the trigger if your lower is within spec. There are a bunch of folk that have done it that way and I've not heard a complaint to date. I've been fortunate to have him tune mine with my lower and I've compared it to triggers he's tuned without the lower. Contrary to what I would have predicted, there wasn't much difference.

Thanks again Chris, I've just launched an email off to John. Will let all know how this little excursion ends up.

I own 4 Jewell triggers, 2 bolts and 2 AR's. The BM 2-stage on my Varminter was horrible, I sold the trigger. No matter what time and effort went into trying to tune it, all I got was frustrated. Since The Jewell bolt triggers were fantastic additions to my bolt guns, I thought I'd try the Jewell's on my AR's. Both took a little tuning as well, but they now break like glass and are well worth the $ spent. I expect that there are "better" triggers out there and my experience with different brands is limited, but I am quite happy with these additions. Then again, who wants to say they ever made a misinformed purchase? I guess that ignorance can be bliss. I wish that I had enough $ to try all the tiggers out there, but I am satisfied enough with these that I don't have a want or need for another right now.
By the way, howdy folks, I'm new to the forum today. 31 years in the reloading game and a bit of knowledge to share when I can. But I'm always willing to learn, as well.

Welcome to the campfire, magnumb. Catchy name! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

There's lots to learn and many opportunities to share here. Hope you enjoy yourself. You will, if you don't take us or you too seriously. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Welcome again!

Thanks RickyD, I appreciate the welcome! Life (especially nowadays) is too short to take either very seriously. I hope to be able to impart some helpful info as well as gain some while visiting this site. Thanks again.

You are welcome! I like your attitude!

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread I have another helping of reliable information to consider when I finally buy or build my own AR-15 within the next three to five years. As a retiree, I don't have and won't have the surplus dollars to waste trying this and that and the other thing in a futile effort to discover what will work for my intended uses. So I'll keep checking this forum from time to time.

I just installed a Bushmaster 2 stage last night. The first stage was not very smooth, but the 2nd broke like it was supposed to. I imagine with more break in, it might get better. My other AR's wear low power spring kits, and they are probably a better alternative based on price alone. I just don't take my bolt guns with 2# Timneys with me to the range when also shooting my AR's. That way you don't realize just how crappy AR triggers are.

...aha...

Last week on Tuesday I dropped John Holliger a money order in the mail, yesterday I received a priority mail box from him with my new RRA trigger in it. Installed it last night and checked it out, I'm very excited to shoot it today. The 3.5lb pull feels like just the ticket for what I use this rifle for.

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread and helped me find what I was looking for.

does anyone know anything about jard triggers adustabel and non adjustable

As noted, a tuned RRA is better and cheaper than a Jewel when dealing with a 2 stage AR trigger. Hard to believe but true.

Glad you are happy!

Jeff