Who makes the best, light, single stage trigger for an AR-15?

I'm on my first excursion into ARs and I've learned I don't like 2 stage triggers nor heavy 4+ pound triggers. I'm looking for a single stage, pound and a half or less. 8 ounces would be approaching good. Is there anything out there?

Tom

1 1/2lbs would be unsafe in an AR.
3lbs is about the minimum safe pull weight.

Personally, I wouldn't trust anything less than 3 1/2lbs.

I thought I wouldn't like a 2 stage either, until I bought a Rock River Varmint for $86. I can't see the need for anything more, but that's just me.

Thanks for the info.

Sounds like this might not be a gun for me. I bought a Ruger MPR. It's got the accuracy .. from a bench with a bit of cheating it'll shoot under half inch with some loads, but I can't do it without the cheats and I can't do the cheats from field positions.

Tom

I agree with jpro. However, there are other triggers that are better. Right now you can get a Larue mbt2s for $87.00. For twice the money, you can buy a Geiselle SSAE, which is a damn good trigger. I also vote 2 stage for an AR.

"Under 1/2". Is that all? Im surprised thats not in the black rifle challenge.

I think your problem is you are judging two stage triggers based on that junk the mpr comes with. My 452 trigger is terrible, gritty, inconsistent. Try a larue mbt for the money and you'll change your mind about 2 stage triggers.

How hard are you going to use this gun, how many rounds per year will you fire & what are you going to use the gun for? All have a bearing on what type & what quality level trigger would be best, IMO.

MM

Keep an open mind about it. Not every gun needs an 8 oz trigger, especially a light weight semi auto. I prefer single stage triggers too, but 3 to 3-1/2 lb is about right for a good crisp single stage in these. IMO the feel of the trigger is a lot more important than the total weight, and a decent single stage AR trigger can be made nice and crisp with a very short reset.

I know most of the AR crowd loves the 2 stage, but I would never shoot an AR again unless it had a single stage trigger.

I have tried most of the drop in modular triggers like timney and chip McCormick etc, they are OK but hands down the finest AR single stage trigger is the complete JP fire control with trigger, speed hammer, springs and anti-walk pins. it is a PIA to install but well worth it. On one of my lowers I sent it to JP and had him install it..........that one breaks about 6oz less than the one I installed myself and still less expensive than some of the high dollar 2 stage on the market.

Velocity 3pd curved shoe.
Ran about 3500 rds thru mine .
No issues.
Then I sold the wpn.

Wanna try a Elftman 3 pd in my next build eventually.

I am a total SSA-E whore now.

This.

John Holliger of White Oak Armament on single stage triggers used in Highpower;
https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/resources/faq.html#triggers

Granted, not everyone will shoot an AR the way we Highpower competitors do, but keep in mind that light trigger with no creep come with a toll on engagement. Good luck and be safe.

That is an interesting point. I've put 10s of thous of rounds & dry firing through ARs using 2 stage triggers and have never had to adjust them. I've worn a couple out & had them rebuilt, however.

If John Holliger says it, it is the same as JC writing it on the tablets.

Gear queens will be gear queens. How could a time tested, blood tested Garand derived trigger group be any good?

Totally agree

And that's exactly why I asked what the usage & purpose of the gun would be.

I have several single stage triggers & I like them for certain uses, but on a gun to be used for home defense, I like a 2-stage.

MM

Tyrone,

Which 2 stage triggers did you manage to wear out?

Rock River. Took me about 10 years each of about 3-4,000 round per year and dry firing 3-5 days a week. When they wore out, they still held weight, but they were getting mushy. Still were safe. I still shoot them. They both still feel great after having been rebuilt by RR. I did upgrade one lower to a Geissele NM and moved the RR to a hunting/informal match gun. But I still run the other RR in matches. The difference between the 2 triggers is the GNM has a lock time that is noticeably faster to me. I like that. But it's about 3 times the price.

I did recently pick up a LaRue MBT. So far I really like it, but I need to get it on some NRA hang weights to see if it can make weight in a match. Spring-loaded trigger gauge says it will, but it is so very close to 4.5lbs that I don't know if the inspection gorillas can pass it. I expect it to hold weight and feel even longer than the RRs.

Thanks,

I appreciate the reply.

John may be talking about single stage triggers made very light with very little engagement. My own experience with single stage triggers in the 3-4 lb range, set so they feel pretty crisp, do not match his comments. I don't shoot nearly in the quantity he does, but I've never had to re-adjust one yet. They do sometimes take more work to set up initially, which he alludes to in his comments about the safety, but that's just part of the deal.

Edit - my point here is that perhaps John is/was talking about something a bit different than the wide variety of 3-4 lb single stage triggers available these days.

Good questions. The answer has changed from the time I bought it to now. I didn't .. and don't .. plan to shoot it with anything like the volume of a competitive high power shooter. Initially I planned for mostly personal defense at a rural home on a fairly large piece of property. The AR has proven unreliable <for me> in critical ways. I don't have confidence in it. It works as designed, but counter to my conditioning, and I keep dropping the magazine when I intend to release the safety. With the more vertical rear grip, the mag release is where I'm used to finding the push button cross-trigger safety. S-H-I-T.

So now I'm trying to save it by making it a varmint gun. It has shown that it has the mechanical accuracy. It has also shown that it does not have the practical / field accuracy because of the trigger. It's simple .. I either get it down to a safe and functional pound and a half, preferably less, or I'll shoot the rest of the ammo on hand then clean it up and sell it.

At this point, I'm looking at replacements. Most likely will be a marlin lever action .357 or .44. Does the jobs as I need them done in my setting. Possibility of a Mini-14, not because of any advantage other than more familiar ergonomics. Dunno. Not happy.

Tom

My new shoes arrived yesterday, waiting for the Lefty safety to show up today.

Ok, then see my comments below in red.

Also, I'd suggest that you pay attention to what Yondering says on these kind of threads; you may not like it or you may not want your gun configured as he does, but he knows what works & his advice is solid.

Safety showed up

Well stated. The man that can't adapt to multiple platforms simply isn't trying hard enough IMHO.

I agree.

TOM, if you really feel that your AR isn't worth owning if you can't get the trigger down to 1.5 lb or lower safely, then just sell it now, it's not for you. That's a pretty unreasonable trigger requirement for any semi auto, and even a lot of factory bolt action triggers. I recommend you not waste your time or ours if that's a serious requirement for you.

In reality though, it sounds like you don't have a feel for what kind of trigger you really need, and don't realize that a 3-4 lb good trigger (either single or two stage) can be very serviceable for most shooters, amateur or professional.

The safety vs mag release thing is a matter of practice and adapting to a different platform. Don't blame the gun for your lack of practice. I dare say most anyone here could make that change with an easy afternoon of dry fire practice and repetition, IF they wanted to. If you're not willing to learn a new platform, just stick to what you know.

An SSA-E 2-stage at a total of 3.5#'s is a wonder to behold.

I don't think you would like a trigger that light on an AR, I also think you would slap fire it and fire it when you aren't wanting to. The problem is you haven't shot a good 2 stage. The lightest I would recommend is the geissele high speed match rifle, its got a second stage break that can be less than 1# but unless you are using it for bench only shooting you are going to want that second stage at least 1#. The other one seldom mentioned is trigger tech. its the opposite it has a very light first stage and a heavier break. I would recommend that trigger for off hand shooting and field use.

the reason for the 2 stage trigger is you can have a lighter trigger that way functionally and still be safe. ALSO in pratical use the 2 stage is part of the secret sauce with an AR 15 and hitting with one. its because you just pull the slack up and hit that wall while settling the reticle and its almost like you just think it off and the trigger breaks without thinking about it. Trigger control in the field is the difference between a hit and a miss in the field. it doesn't matter how great your gun is. Don't control the trigger right and you will miss!!. a 2 stage trigger makes that much easier with an AR 15.

Wait, so our choices go from an AR with a 1# trigger to a lever action .357?

And he thought the AR has a bad trigger

Hold the secret sauce on mine

There's your 1 1/2lb pull - on the 2nd stage of that trigger!

I use this quote more and more...

If you can't make X work, its simply because you have not put effort into it. IE you don't want it to work.

Same goes for 2 stage. My buddy wanted better AR trigger. Could not deal with 2 stage, would screw up his deer rifle, pistol etc.... I finally built and gave him a good AR with 2 stage RRA varmint, not even tuned. You couldn't buy it from him these days.

On that note, wife and I had never seen a 2 stage before about 89. Since then we've done fairly well in competitive shooting. And we used lots of cross training to help us. 2 stage to pistol both heavy and light, DA and SA, combat and bullseye. 3 and 4 position small bore with tiny ounces triggers. Ounces triggers on 1000 yard bolt guns. Shotguns. Silhouette..... and we've done well enough in each, and I can't recall dropping a mag by accident or not knowing how to use each safety when it comes to it, etc... And as much as we shot the AR15 over the years, 89-05 more or less as we made our way from the M1A over... up to 20K rounds a year, I"ve yet to try to swipe my safety off the 12 ga or the 700s. Or even reach for a safety on the glocks, but I never forget the safety on the 1911... and so it goes.

No .. y' damned fool. Get things straight instead of putting words in my mouth. I don't like the factory AR trigger and I don't like the factory Marlin trigger. I'm not using either one as delivered from the factory. I've got the answer to the Marlin trigger already on the shelf, a Wild West Lever Guns replacement. This one has been in a couple different guns but is homeless. It took my .45-70 guide gun down under a pound with no creep. I kept it when I sold the gun.

What I'm looking for is something comparable for the AR platform.

I might have found something. Timney is offering the Calvin Elite for the AR-15. It lists at 1.5 pounds, non adjustable, single stage. Has anyone shot with one of these yet? I mean actual experience, not merely opinionated armchair quarterbacking?

Tom

If you go with a trigger that light, you'd better have damn good trigger control. If you are the type that immediately releases the trigger after firing, you will get some surprises.

I'm listening. Explain in more detail, please?

Basically bump firing.

I have a buddy that sets his Jewell triggers up so light, I can't fire one shot, it's always 2.

One more thing to consider is hammer spring power.

I hope basic designs have changed since I used a single stage trigger in an AR (a Timney circa 2000 IIRC), but one of the problems I had was that in order to get a pull light enough to be an improvement over a smooth GI trigger, the hammer spring had to be so light that I got ignition problems. I didn't notice it until I put it in an AR10 and it refused to light milsurp 308 100% of the time.

What you should do is get one lot of match grade ammo and chronograph a minimum of 10 rounds with the old trigger and then do the same with the new trigger. If there are ignition problems, it will show up as a increased standard deviation in velocity.

Lets hope it works for ya! For all the folks that have commented, that have gone down that road one way or another, I'd have thought some good info was out there for ya.

FWIW I think if you got a drop in single stage trigger, then 1 pound could work but as noted, you'd better be damn careful. IIRC, and I'm not going back to the top, this was a home gun, last thing I want on a home gun is a light trigger.... but that's your business.

Gotcha. Yes, don't want that for my uses.


I'm not planning to mess with it, at least not at this point.


Noted! Thank you.

I'll keep studying. Got more shooting to do tomorrow. See what additional input I might get here. Then some time after Christmas I'll stir the info, calculate a bit, and made a decision.

Tom

My now very old Timney wouldn't light them as it was from the factory with their "light" spring. Just saying, you may not have to mess with it for it to be too light.

Does changing the trigger alone change hammer fall? Seems counter-intuitive.

I've experienced that issue on DA revolvers when I had a gunsmith trying for the lightest possible SA pull leave me with a very good SA pull but a DA pull that wouldn't reliably fire the gun. He did it by trimming the hammer spring just a bit too much.

Tom

Just a guess here, but I'm betting either TOM doesn't actually have a trigger pull gauge, or it reads really light. That same faulty trigger gauge on some of the good AR triggers we use might read at 1 lb or less too...

"Changing out the trigger" on an AR is technically just a figure of speech for the purposes of our discussion. When you change an AR trigger, you are in reality replacing the entire fire control group.

Just got this all installed today, very crisp and possibly lighter than I'm comfortable with...the range will tell. It comes with a second spring, for heavier trigger pull.

Very impressed with the LaRue tho

Could be, but thats way to light for a lever gun or AR, as far as im concerned.

That's kinda my point - I suspect his lever gun trigger isn't actually that light either, he just thinks it is; the trigger weights he's talking about are pretty ridiculous for anything but a bench gun. It's probably not that much different than a good 3.5 lb single stage AR trigger, IMO.

Yep. I know what you were talking about and agree. There may be something wrong with his trigger pull gauge. You'd also think a guy would know the difference between 1 pound and 3.5 pounds too though, if that were the case. But, if he's had the same trigger pull gauge for a long time, then maybe just maybe he's got it in his mind that it's really 1 pound when it isn't.. Like I said though, if it is really 1 pound, that's far too light for any hunting rifle or AR in my book..

If you can't shoot a 3.5 pound trigger well because it's "too heavy", you don't have any business owning a gun.

As for mastering the controls on an AR, everyone of my kids can operate the safety on an AR without dropping the magazine, except the 5 year old, because I haven't started her on AR's yet. They are actually pretty intuitive. The only firearm I can think of that has the safety in a position analogous to the location of the AR's mag release is the FN Five-seveN. If TOM has ten thousand rounds through the 5-7, I could see how he's built up that muscle memory, other wise, I'm at a loss to see how that can't be over come with standard drills.

Story: I coach Juniors in 10M air. We have a kid that's a pretty good shooter, but has hit a plateau in his scores. He's been asking to have his Anschutz trigger adjusted lighter of late. The other coaches had indulged him previously. When he asked me I tried his trigger, and it is at the limit of safe. I advised him I wouldn't take it lower, but I would work with him to evaluate his technique on the SCATT (electronic trainer) and see if there was a technique "opportunity". I suspect there's an element of grabbing or slapping at the trigger when the sights are lined up. This runs counter to what we are teaching (getting the rifle to settle and adding weight gradually until it breaks).

I'm reading between the lines ie " It's got the accuracy .. from a bench with a bit of cheating it'll shoot under half inch with some loads, but I can't do it without the cheats and I can't do the cheats from field positions."

I think others have alluded to this nicely, but I'll come out and say it more plainly. It sounds like you have a marksmanship problem. I'm not sure what your "cheats" are (mechanical rest, remote trigger?), but if you have to rely on a lighter trigger than is typically used on an AR, it sounds like you're using light weight as a bandaid to compensate for poor technique (sorry but I think this is your better way forward).

That coupled with your confusion on the safety and mag release make me think you might have a "training" opportunity. Maybe you're not willing or able to put in the time...maybe you're right, the AR is not for you. I can tell you having shot the AR in it's most raw form (stock M16A2 with a burst trigger), and in it's most evolved forms, the AR today delivers great accuracy if you're willing/able to spend the time learning it's specific needs. If you live close to me or are willing to travel, I'd spend some time taking a look at what's going on. ...maybe even a SCATT session.

Good luck finding something that fills your needs safely.

Chris, im sure the op will appreciate your honest and sincere post. Hell, im shooting a new rifle right now at the range and its raining like a biotch. Reading your post makes me think there are probably a lot of us here that have developed bad habits along the way. I realize that every time i sit down at the bench, i have to consciously make an effort to make sure every shot is pulled off the same way every time. If not, there may be a flyer or 2 in the group. We see that a lot in our 10 shot groups in these challenges we have here. I think shooting the AR rifle with a good 2 stage trigger has helped my shooting overall. No matter what kind of rifle im shooting. Too bad the op doesnt want to expand his shooting skills and give a good 2 stage trigger and the ar platform a chance.

Chris

Thinking it was 91... M1A doubled in the practice match at Perry. Someone, as I had no clue what was going on, dropped emory cloth in there and drug it... never doubled again.

2 weeks at Perry, went from Expert to Master as the card was almost there when we got home.

Finally found a scale... almost 8 pounds... IIRC I either placed in the top 10 in quite a few NRA matches as Expert, or may have even placed top of class. I could google but don't much care.

Point being, you've made a good point!

Having shot some with triggers in ounces range, I have found I develop bad habits.
They allow, or even encourage, slapping. And it's not real noticeable, until you shoot
a normal trigger. Then you see the big jerk.
On the trigger.

no one has said AR Gold?

Damn, don't start another big stick thread...

Maybe we should call him "Flinch"?



(A politically correct term for "involuntary big jerk")

Buy once cry once SSA-E

This. ^^^^

And they're really not that bad when you buy during the holiday sales.

The SSA-E is a great Trigger. Their holidays sales are really good. I just picked up their Single Stag to try out.

Yeah, the SSA-E was $168 the other day. Hard to beat that deal. Heck, for $87.00, the op could give the Larue tactical MBT2S at try. Although, it doesnt seem like hes open to the idea of giving a good 2 stage a try.

I just received the Larue tactical MBT2S, $94 shipped...2 week wait

Yep

Has anyone tried the Geiselle single stage trigger (the new one, not the 3Gun trigger)?

Yes. We have ten or twelve. What are you looking for?

What do you personally think?

Good, bad, Indifferent?

What would you use it for, and for what purposes would you not use it?

Just curious what you think. I don’t like a 2 stage for match use but their 3G trigger isn’t ideal either.

BTW Proctor is coming in April.

I just bought one on the black friday sale. Haven't installed it yet.

Good for what it was designed for- speed shooting. For 3-gun, etc. I like it very much. For precision shooting it does have discernible creep if you are sensitive to it.








It’s completely different than the 3-gun trigger. As above, I like it for speed shooting. Super quick, short, and heavy reset.



Pistol or rifle class with Frank?

Thanks.

I appreciate the report.

Not sure yet, Form. He'll be at the TTPOA Conference but registration won't open until next week. We're working on getting him to stay for another few days for a competition pistol class and shoot a L2 match in Houston that's around that time.

The best single stage triggers I own & have used are the Elftmann Match & the Rise RA-535.

I find no discernible creep in either one & the Elftmann is set to just over 3 lb & is adjustable, reset is very quick & solid.

The Rise is not adjustable & breaks at 4 lb, is extremely crisp & also has a very fast & solid reset.

But for truly precision shooting in my LR type guns, I really prefer a 2 stage trigger, either an SSA-E or a re-sprung SSA works fine for me.

MM

I picked up the Elftmann at a gunshow in one of their open display grips. I dropped it on the table from about 2 feet and it went off. I put it back on the table and walked away.

Not sure about the display's relationship to being in a rifle, so really can't comment other than to say, you do know that Elf's have a half-cock notch like a 1911 so it's very possible for the hammer to drop to the half cock notch & not drop all the way to fire?

I've knocked mine over from standing up a couple of times to test (simulate just getting knocked over) it & it's not dropped to the fire position.

MM

Was gunning CMC's on 22LR,17HMR(2),17 Whizzum and 224 Grendel Krunchentickers today.

The SSA-E is the biggest piece of fhuqking schit,I've ever seen/shot.......................

If you can't hit with an SSA-E, well, you just suck.

Merry Christmas!

MM,

I did not know that. This one dropped all the way. Of course, this was a sample of one...

I think it may have had something to do with the angle at which it hit, I've dropped other Elf's flat on a flat surface and did not get the same result. The one mentioned above hit at an odd angle, and to be fair, you are right, it was not in an actual receiver.

I missed on an SSA-E the other day. Added one to my cart at PSA for $156.00. Went to check out, and it that time, price jumped back to $240.00 Guess I'll just have to be patient for a bit longer.

Pardon my being afforded the luxury,of not being forced to guess. Hint.



Just how "loud" is your Imagination,when you "shoot" it?!? Congratulations?!?

Bless your heart.

Laughing!.................

Couldn't figure out how to install it in the lower?

Daunting! You poor poor(literally) CLUELESS Fhuqk. Hint. Laughing!



SSA-E after first day of use. Hint.



Yesssssss...CLP'd. Hint.






Rusted up,over-hyped biggest piece of fhuqking schit I've ever seen. Luckily Fall hours are a "wee" bit shorter,than a mid-summer one. Hint. LAUGHING!

But,do be SURE to "tell" me "more".

Hint.

Bless your heart.

Laughing!.....................

Got pretty fhuqking quiet.


LAUGHING!.....................

I guess aluminum and plastic is your friend?

I've got 5 G2S's and wouldn't trade em for 10 cassette type triggers but I'm glad you like em. Simple enough.

I'm not guessing.

Hint..................

Gonna be nice, it the season and all.

Hey! Little Twig.






Yep. Didn't need to say that.

DealinSuck,

What else can you "do",besides suck ass,read about wares you ain't got and fawn the pictures of same? Hint. Congratulations?!?

Bless your heart.

Laughing!....................

I have 4 or 5 SSA-E triggers and a Rock River NM trigger, I tried an AR gold trigger but did not like it and returned it after testing it in my rifle, they allowed the return. I have been wanting to try a CMC 3 pound trigger but have 3 projects ahead of it now. For a general purpose trigger for hunting plus use in a rifle that you might want to use in an emergency, and some firing at paper the SSA-E has been much better than a standard Colt trigger or any of the standard triggers that come with rifles these days. My rifles that I shot in the challenge a couple of years ago were equipped with SSA-E triggers, probably a handicap based on my performance, as best I could do was just over a MOA for 20 rounds in two rifles.

Never even heard of CMC.

Laughing!..................

So you [bleep] up another piece of equipment?
I'm supposed to be surprised?

I use wares that are beyond your" means",in a manner beyond your "abilities"...which "surprises" only you. Hint. Congratulations?!?

Bless your heart.

Laughing!.................

Maybe you should stick to USGI triggers. They are Parkerized to prevent rust. Because they are Parkered, they are gritty. Marines can't break them, so they should last you a couple days.

I'd love to see some of the scores you've shot. Animals are big targets and don't take much skill.

Jimmy,

What was it about the AR Gold trigger that you didn't like?

Parkerizing does NOT induce Dog Schit results...other than your Imagination and it's Pretend. Hint.

I've less than zero concern,what Ladies on manicured lawns "shoot" and am more than a touchy "comfy" in my R&D critiques of wares,well beyond your "means" and "abilities". Hint.

We have (1) thing in common,in that neither of us has seen anybody better with a rifle,than I.

Hint.

Congratulations?!?......................

HAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

That's a good one!

Lucky for you a deer is about 18 MOA @ 100.

I guess it was bound to happen.

Why is anyone even commenting? If you ignore him he’ll go away.

Oh look BS, there's *another* one who shoots better than you.

Good day, Mr. Rost!

BTW, Mr. Rost, will you be giving BS shooting lessons when you make your way to AK? He could use them.

What? Miss the fun?

I’ve also tried them and didn’t like them. They’ve got some pre-travel before a very crisp break. Almost identical to a 1911 trigger. The people who like them LOVE them. I’m sure I could have gotten used to it, but it’s not that good of a trigger to warrant a learning curve.

Adults are trying to have a conversation.

As you wish.

At least Imagination and Pretend are free...so you can "afford" to "contribute".

Bless your heart.

Laughing!................

Just out of curiosity would you please post something that would back up your claim on being the best shot. A NRA classification card or even better a picture of you receiving your trophy at the Nationals. I see you write a lot about how you think are the best shot but don't ever see any proof that you are. How about this - we both live in Alaska so why don't we get together and shoot in the Alaska State High-power rifle match. I would like to meet you in person.

Find me "mistaken".

Hint.

It will be fhuqking FUNNY.

Re-hint.

As you feverishly nip heels and sniff my shorts.................

Please stop, people.

Pardon Facts,colliding with your Fantasy.

Hint.

Bless your heart.

LAUGHING!...............

Some ask questions.

Pardon my KNOWING.

Hint...............

Thanks Blue, I appreciate the feed back.

Just to add to the fire, I have a CMC single-stage that got moved to a different, less-used range toy build. It was in my .300BLK SBR, and my original load for subsonics was using IMR4895. Unfortunately, there was a *LOT* of unburned powder and I wasn't really concerning m'self on massively thorough cleanings every range trip. The trigger got unburned powder, CLP, and carbon mixed up inside its inner workings, and as it's a cassette style drop-in, got gummed up pretty good, which first started with the first round of any string (regardless of length) being a 2-3 MOA flyer, eventually resulting in the trigger hammer refusing to drop. I'm using Lil Gun for supers *AND* subs out of that gun now, so no more worries with that, but it also has a G2S-E inside it now which is much better.

It's a good trigger, just rather maintenance-queen-esque, so it's not a good choice for a heavy-use or low-cleaning-regimen rifle.